US Politics: Talk Radio Ravings and Other Mindless Mouthing

[Fragile Bird]

42 minutes ago, Ran said:

I assume that refers to the second shooting incident, where after he falls someone takes a flying kick at him and the second homicide victim tries to hit him with his skateboard, Preceding this, according to the NY Times account, you can hear people shouting things like “Beat him up” and “Get him.”

No, you need to re-read the complaint. McGinnis was the person talking to him when Rosenbaum chased after him. He is the reason for the reckless endangerment charge, as he was almost hit when Rittenhouse shot at Rosenbaum when the latter chased him onto the lot.

 

 

He was not “stomped on” at any point. The final video where he goes to the police to report ‘someone was shot up the street’ clearly shows he was not injured in any serious way. Those chasing him were chasing him because he killed someone, whether or not it was by accident. There is no forgiveness in the US for holding a weapon that discharges and kills someone. I’ve read about 10 year olds, 14 year olds, charged with reckless homicide. I think I even read about an 8 year old charged when another child was killed.

[Ran]

15 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Self-defense doesn't mean you get to shoot someone illegally,

My understanding of the Wisconsin law, poor as it is, is that it can be construed as self-defense even if you were doing otherwise illegal things if those illegal things weren’t the direct cause of why you had to defend yourself. 

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 and then shoot people when they try to disarm you.. Every "stand your ground" law I know of explicitly forbids that.

I think the tragedy with the second incident and the killing and maiming caused by Rittenhouse was the chaos of the situation. From the perspective of those approaching him, they’re stopping a killer trying to get away from murder. From the perspective of Rittenhouse — as construed from the videos — he was attempting to get to the police, either for his safety and/or to tell them what happened. It will be interesting to learn what the police officers in the squad car that he tried to speak to say about the interaction. Did he tell them he shot people who attacked him? Or did he leave out that information?

The fucked up thing about it all is that Rittenhouse was also trying to assist injured protesters earlier in the evening. There’s a video of him trying to help a young woman who had allegedly been shot (not sure if by someone armed at the protests or by police). He should have stuck to helping people rather than playing at being a vigilante.

[DMC]

9 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

The Democrats did not show any vision outside of Donald Trump is bad and Joe Biden is good, meanwhile the Republicans are interweaving their policy goals with their culture war rhetoric in a way that actually fires up their base.

What policy goals?  The RNC literally did not provide a platform, which generally is where policy goals are articulated.  As for the DNC boiling it down to Trump bad, Biden good - the opposite of that was literally the RNC's only message, with Trump shattering the record for how many times a nominee mentions their opponent in an acceptance speech. 

10 years ago I would've never have thought a nominee would speak all four nights, in addition to giving his entire family premiere speaking slots that traditionally go to intraparty officeholders that demonstrate a united party and are essential to party building - ya know, the basic concept of the modern party convention.  The RNC was quite obviously all about Trump, not policy, the latter is absurd.  And politically that tends to be a bad idea when the nominee's approval is at 42/54.  Hell, even GOP voters admit they don't really give a shit about policy - by far their first priority is, essentially, owning the libs:

I also find it baffling that you're crediting the GOP for scaring white moderates while last week you were complaining about the Dems giving Kasich et al. speaking slots - obviously an attempt to reach out to white moderates as well.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

My understanding of the Wisconsin law, poor as it is, is that it can be construed as self-defense even if you were doing otherwise illegal things if those illegal things weren’t the direct cause of why you had to defend yourself. 

I think the tragedy with the second incident and the killing and maiming caused by Rittenhouse was the chaos of the situation. From the perspective of those approaching him, they’re stopping a killer trying to get away from murder. From the perspective of Rittenhouse — as construed from the videos — he was attempting to get to the police, either for his safety and/or to tell them what happened. It will be interesting to learn what the police officers in the squad car that he tried to speak to say about the interaction. Did he tell them he shot people who attacked him? Or did he leave out that information?

The fucked up thing about it all is that Rittenhouse was also trying to assist injured protesters earlier in the evening. There’s a video of him trying to help a young woman who had allegedly been shot (not sure if by someone armed at the protests or by police).

I posted in the policing thread my thoughts on Rittenhouse himself; personally, I mostly feel nothing but pity for him and anger at whomever gave him an assault rifle, and at the cops encouraging this behavior, but he's the one who will have to pay the consequences.

I agree that chaos is the real culprit, but I don’t see how the chaos will end if the criminal justice system keeps treating PoC as expendable, and keep treating peaceful protesters as dangerous. I often wonder what would have happened back in May during the mask protests at the Michigan state house if LEOs had shown up en masse in riot gear and started indiscriminately tear gassing the armed protesters there. 

But if you have diverse array of ages, races, and beliefs at a protest, then out comes the riot squad, which usually gives you a beating as a send-off.

I hope one of the first actions of the Biden administration is to ban weapons at protests.

[Week]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/opinion/kenosha-kyle-rittenhouse-trump.html?

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We should be appalled. But it appears only some of us are. Others are prepared to elevate Rittenhouse as a symbol of self-defense. It’s an ominous reaction, not the least because it might inspire other Rittenhouses to do the same, to travel to protests ready for the use of lethal force against protesters. Put differently, the extent to which Carlson and Coulter and Turning Point are representative of conservative thought on violence against protesters is the extent to which we may have to prepare for further Kenoshas

...

However ridiculous the McCloskeys may have looked in the media, the fact of the matter is their actions led to a reward. For threatening protesters with death, they were given a chance to speak to the entire nation.

...

“These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen,” Trump tweeted on a Friday morning in May. “Any difficulty and we will assume control, but when the looting starts, the shooting starts.”

...

A president who speaks of shooting people in the street — who elevates those who threaten to shoot people in the street — cannot be separated from the individual who does, eventually, shoot people in the street.

Jamelle Bouie speaking sense.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

by far their first priority is, essentially, owning the libs:

People really need to understand this. The only things Republicans care about right now are being anti-liberal, trashing the media and court appointments. Nothing else really matters, and there's nothing that will deter these people. Nothing. They could learn that Trump did sexually assault all those women, and he'd still be better than any Democrat in their minds. That's how fucked up things are right now.

[Maithanet]

51 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I hope one of the first actions of the Biden administration is to ban weapons at protests.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I hope I am), but I thought that was a Supreme Court decision, and thus a law banning weapons at protests would be unconstitutional. 

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I hope I am), but I thought that was a Supreme Court decision, and thus a law banning weapons at protests would be unconstitutional. 

I'm not aware of any such decision, and this article suggests states can still pass laws that regulate carrying firearms in public (for now):

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The cases rejected by the court involved questions of whether laws banning interstate handgun sales in some cases violate the Second Amendment, whether there is a constitutional right to carry a firearm outside the home for self-defense, if Illinois and Massachusetts can ban assault rifles and large-capacity ammunition magazines, and whether a state can limit handgun permits to people who demonstrate a specific need for self-defense. [...]

Gun rights activists have spent the decade since urging the justices to review whether laws imposing restrictions on carrying guns outside the home and on certain kinds of assault weapons and high-capacity magazines are lawful.

Thomas, in a written dissent Monday, took issue with his colleagues on the Supreme Court rejecting the appeal of a New Jersey business owner, Thomas Rogers, who was challenging his state’s requirement that a person show “justifiable need” before being issued a handgun permit.

Rogers services automatic teller machines in “high-crime areas,” Thomas wrote, and wanted permission to carry a handgun for self-defense.

 

[Ormond]

3 hours ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Can we please stop calling this guy a kid? 

He's an armed thug who went looking for trouble, and found it. That's certainly how it would be framed if the perpetrator was black. But lo and behold, when the perpetrator is white, suddenly he's a "kid" and we are discussing whether he was in fact the true victim here and therefore justified in murdering two people, plus an attempted third one. The mind boggles!

Sorry, a 17 year old is a "kid" in most everyday conversations. When people that age are crime victims, they are often referred to as "children" on this board.

I think your objection is backwards. Instead of not calling 17 year old White murderers "kids", we should start calling 17 year old Black perpetrators "kids". 

 

[Maithanet]

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm not aware of any such decision, and this article suggests states can still pass laws that regulate carrying firearms in public (for now):

Yeah, this seems like an open-carry issue.  Based on wikipedia, it looks like 45 of the 50 states allow open carry (either with or without a permit).  I imagine that laws specifically pertaining to carrying a firearm at a protest would be hard to enforce, because a single person can declare themselves to be "protesting" more or less at any time. 

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Week said:

Pretty disheartening to see folks leaping to the defense of a(n alleged) murderer aided and abetted by family to cross state lines with an illegal firearm. He has enough defenders among Trumpets and will actually be afforded his constitutional rights unlike George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and the growing litany of names.

It's impossible to not see the connect at the nexus of Blue Lives Matter, violent attacks by police and Feds on protests, the (in-fucking-sane McCloskeys, and the Right's rhetoric against BLM and protestors. Voicing support for the oppressors is absolutely vile at any time and even moreso now.

People arent leaping to his defence, they are pointing out that he may have one. Not the same thing. At all. 

 

[Fragile Bird]

I started posting this in the Police thread but it seems more appropriate here.

Isn't it a requirement that all guns have a safety on them? Is that literally not one of the first things people are taught? Isn't it a classic line that people are told do not release the safety unless you are going to shoot?

Kyle Rittenhouse was not in Kenosha by himself (hell, can he even drive? Did mummy and Daddy give him a car as well as a gun?), he was with a self-styled militia group. Did his militia leader tell him to make sure the safety was off, because he had to be ready to shoot? If he had the safety off, is that not evidence that he was ready, willing and able to shoot someone? Hell, I have no idea, American gun law is some weird esoteric never-never land for me.

So when Victim #1 was shot, trying to take Rittenhouse's gun away from him, negligence was involved and therefore the charge is First Degree Reckless Homicide. That is apparently the equivalent of a Second Degree Murder charge in other states. Ran keeps saying he was chased into a car dealership parking lot and has a self-defense argument. Yet Richard McGinniss, the reporter/videographer who was interviewing Mr. Rosenbaum, says that they had been talking to each other, not chasing Rittenhouse. Rittenhouse shows up and Rosenbaum threw a plastic bag at him and missed. He then approached Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum was shot four times.

Oh, I found the gun answer: Rittenhouse was carrying a Smith & Wesson AR-15-style .223 caliber rifle with a 30 round magazine.

Rosenbaum fell to the ground, shot in the groin, thigh, back and hand, and was grazed on the forehead. Rittenhouse approached him and while McGinniss took off his shirt to try to stem the bleeding Rittenhouse called a friend and said "I've just killed someone", which is caught on video. That's when he ran away and people went after him.

The second victim was carrying only a skateboard, and it seems that Rittenhouse eventually tripped and fell. Adam Gruber also attempted to get his gun away and tried, once, to hit Rittenhouse with the skateboard, when Rittenhouse shot him through the heart. Mercifully it sounds like he died instantly. That's the First Degree Murder charge, the one that carries life with no hope of parole.

Then Gaige Grosskreutz, victim #3, carrying a handgun, approaches Rittenhouse and Rittenhouse shoots him. Rittenhouse runs away again, obviously unhurt and never "stomped on". That is the Attempted Murder charge. That's also the handgun person someone else in this thread was trying to hang the self-defence claim on, after two people had already been murdered.

When he gets to the police, with his arms up, he tells the police that people have been shot up the road. He does NOT say "I shot three people". I do not think he was "surrendering" himself, he had previously been ordered by police to get the fuck out of the area and he probably wanted to make sure nobody shot him. As far as we know, he then flees the scenes of the crimes and runs home to Illinois, requiring an extradition hearing to get him back to Wisconsin. Let's see if he fights extradition or voluntarily agrees to go.

Media have reported that four different lawyers have called them already, each identifying themselves as Rittenhouse's lawyer. This kid's family either has a heck of a lotta money or a staggering amount of ambulance chasing is going on.

The defense moves are going to be fascinating: "An old guy tried to take my gun away from me and I was scared" defense, "A guy hit me with a skateboard after I killed the old guy who tried to take my gun away from" defense, and the "I just killed two people and someone approached me carrying a handgun and I already killed two people so I had to try to kill him too" defense.

[The Map Guy]

Just when I thought I was out, you guys pull me back in. Just this one time ...

@Guy Kilmore

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I 100% disagree with this woman. Ironically enough in modern times, it is BLM burning down the black-owned businesses. It would be even more ironic if it was a white BLM rioter that throws the Molotov. But if you agree on her justification of rioting and stealing, please feel free to invite her to your home for dinner.

Throw some statistics at me to prove your point.  Let's see it.

 

What statistics are you looking for?

Rebutting the claim of that woman on how black people are modernly oppressed because of something that happened 150 years ago is a false narrative? My statistic is every immigrant that has arrived to America since and thrived. If you want to limit it the same skin color, I know a naturalized Bahamian neurologist and a naturalized Ghanaian airliner captain. Ask them how slavery affected their way of life in America today.

Or are you looking for the statistics of BLM riots destroying black business? Here is one in Minnesota.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/black-owned-restaurant-responded-burned-protests/story?id=71049195
An Ethiopian restaurant???? You BLM rioters can't read a map??
According to the article, the owners were neutral about it ... but all the waiters and cooks are out of jobs. Great job BLM rioters.
If you want me to list more black businesses being burn down by BLM, I can ... but as I do, I will remind you the employees are jobless.

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As to having her over for dinner, I mean, sure why not, if there isn't a pandemic going on?  She is an acclaim author and probably has an interesting story to tell.  

It was sarcastic joke. If you didn't get the joke of inviting someone that advocates Stealing into your home for dinner, I suggest you don't actually invite her.

 

@Martell Spy

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He already ran away. After pointing out that he is a life-long Democrat, but is voting Republican this election for the first time. Classic Republican troll bitch move.

I'm back! And no, I always voted Democrat. I'm a urban New Yorker. When I reached voting age in college, I voted against Bush. I voted for Obama twice. I didn't vote in 2016 because I thought Trump would start WWIII, but Hilary was not someone I support either. After 3 years of Trump, I couldn't be more wrong about WWIII, it felt safer as nation from foreign attacks. In regards to the racial divide, well that was already happening during the Obama-era.

I'm in the center now leaning right. I am Pro-Choice, I have no problems with homosexuals, but the concept of transsexuals confuses me. I believe God created science, but Man created the Bible (I believe the Bible has no direct link to God, but its the same God). I support the police and troops, and I hate hypocritical movements with BLM and Cancel Culture. I can go on about being center but I won't.

I can list several reasons why I will vote Trump, but I wont.

All I'm telling you Democrats is ... JOE BIDEN??? REALLY??? C'mon man! You guys can't find a better candidate?? You guys want those Obama votes huh? I might have voted back to Democrat if you got Michael Bloomberg as a candidate. I liked him a lot as NYC mayor (he was a Red Sox fan, which was hard to stomach ... but he did a decent job and I'll give him a pass). He seems like a well spoken guy, and an economist that can match Trump.

But I want to educate you guys on something about Trump that you guys already know, but in a different light.

Trump is an asshole. We all know he is an asshole. His voters know he is an asshole. BUT he wears it like armor ... and it can never be used to hurt him. So good luck trying to attack his character.

Trump is like a Tywin Lannister. You may hate him and his alpha-maleness ... but you are asking me to replace him with Joe Biden, who is like a Walder Frey. C'mon man!

Walder Frey is a rat.

Joe Biden ... Nice guy? Really?
Not racist? I can provide a few links. You know I can and they are nasty.
Respects women? I can provide a few links. You know I can and they are nasty.

If you guys want to vote for rat that has a track record of sitting around doing nothing ... go ahead ... free country.

I rather have an asshole lead the country than a rat hiding in the basement.

 

@Week

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@The Map Guy Ciao. Hope you put more effort into educating yourself instead of spewing ignorance and bigotry. The continued intentional bad faith argumentation, support for white supremacists and bigots - you are not a family man. 

That is nice Week, supporting an organization whose violent actions will get Trump re-elected. Do you hear the democrat mayors and CNN telling you guys to stop rioting because it will increase Trump support? ... because its true.

 

@A Horse Named Stranger

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Again. Implying this is a Wisconsin, Missouri or Minnessota problem, implies that NY does not have the same problem. But it's nice that you start a paragraph, stating you don't deny it, but to deny it's a problem in NYC. It's a great day for Eric Garner I suppose... And no, we'Re not playing a game whataboutism here. It's retarded and outrageous, when halfwits like Cucker Tarzan scream it into their echo chamber, it's not smarter when you do it on the internet.

Eric Garner is a better poster boy than George Floyd, but Eric was Obama-era. Its a shame what happened to Eric, but at the same time ... when the police (especially a police sting) announce that you are arrested, you don't resist. Almost all the people who have died under the police are resisting arrest. If only people listened to Chris Rock.

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As an atheist, sauna goer, piano player and spare time comedian, and chess enthusiast, I find this list admirable. You know what defund the police actually means, or are you just Cucker Tarzaning scary words into wild, without knowing what they mean? BLM destroying business? Right. Just let the negros die. It's good for business. As a non-gun owning European... Cancel culture is a right wing obsession, by people who don'T want to own the consequences of the nonsense they're spouting. But don't worry, BLM are on their way to cancel culture you from your job. They'll arrive momentarily. Call the police.

Oh nice, you are a comedian too? I use to be a stand up comedian, but I don't do that anymore. I usually like to sit down and tell my jokes.

JK, I was never a stand up comedian.

Also I understand you are European. I just want to inform you we can't use the "N" words to refer to black people here in America ... including "negros". I don't want you to get your ass whooped here.

And that last sentence was totally not necessary since it sounds like personal attack. But its okay, I can take it.

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Ofc you voted Trump. And no, BLM didn't make Floyd a martyr. That was the police doing by murdering an unarmed man. You forgot the list of your attributes there. Stamp collector, water colour painter. Whatever you wanted to add there. Be a bit more creative. Talking about false narratives.

I didn't vote for Trump yet. And again, I agree that Police Officer Chauvin murdered Floyd, but it was personal and not racist. If you watched all 52 minutes of the video, nothing indicates racism. If the police used the "N" words, then we have a bingo. Even if they used "You people" ... maybe you can label that racist. BUT none of that occurred. If that occurred, give me that timestamp. The other officers treated the 2 black passengers of Floyd's car neutrally. No racism, just cooperation.

There is also whole new level I didn't want to bring up because it will confuse you guys even more. There is a possible Jaime Lannister/Aerys murder parallel to Chauvin/Floyd murder that will never be confessed in court. 

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I find the concern trolling heart touching. The ongoing murders of people of colour is the leaking bathroom. Cool. I appreciate you wanting to put out the burning cross first.

Please Mr/Mrs European, educate yourself. CNN likes to hide data. 80% of murdered black people are committed by black people. In 2019, only 9 unarmed black men were killed by police. BLM is destroying cities over a single digit number while completely ignoring black on black crime. This is the fire in the kitchen and racist police are the leak.

I found the link. I ask everyone to watch 4 minutes of this man from my timestamp. He has a very very funny joke about Trump that both Dem or Rep can laugh about. He then makes the comment about the fire and the leak. Give this man 4 minutes. He is currently in the hospital with kidney issues. I wish this man well.

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Again, was that a parody post?

Nope, I am pretty serious on my stand. If you want me to turn up my troll-level, I can. I can start talking about Biden now, but it may offend some of you guys, it is a touchy subject.

 

@Varysblackfyre321

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It was blatantly illegal, and all these men need to be held accountable for their actions.

Chauvin was not the only bad cop on site.

There are good cops.

They would have stopped this.

 

Rookie cops working with a superior Officer who has a vendetta against Floyd.
The other cops asked if they should stop and Chauvin said No.
At one point, the other cops just backed off of Floyd anyways while Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd.
Watch the video if you are not afraid of graphic content.
And don't forget about the drugs in his system.
Anyways that will be up to the jury to decide.

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At the very least it should be treated as a significant problem correct?

So how do with fix racism? Its not by burning Ethiopian restaurants.
Racism may never be fixed. But there is one thing that may be close ... it is stop committing crimes against each other: Black on Black, Black on White, Cop on Black, White on Black, and all the other races too

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Those who’d trade freedom for security deserve neither.

Tell that to the criminals that hurt law abiding citizens, denying their freedom to a safe life.

Criminals hurt the population more than the police.

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Resisting arrest\= killing him is okay.

Since Floyd was unarmed, I agree. Convict Chauvin for murdering his co-worker.

 

@The Great Unwashed

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I actually give a shit when racist cops, under color of law,, are depriving my fellow law-abiding citizens of those rights that you and I are so privileged to not have to worry about. 

I'm not Caucasian

 

Anyways, see you guys. I'm going back to the ASOIAF forum. If you need anything from me, just holla.

[Week]

45 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

People arent leaping to his defence, they are pointing out that he may have one. Not the same thing. At all. 

 

That's a distinction that does not reflect what is happening (nor do I think it exists anyway). "Pointing out" is different from paragraphs of argumentation with "analysis" of video evidence.

[Guy Kilmore]

17 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Just when I thought I was out, you guys pull me back in. Just this one time ...

@Guy Kilmore

What statistics are you looking for?

Rebutting the claim of that woman on how black people are modernly oppressed because of something that happened 150 years ago is a false narrative? My statistic is every immigrant that has arrived to America since and thrived. If you want to limit it the same skin color, I know a naturalized Bahamian neurologist and a naturalized Ghanaian airliner captain. Ask them how slavery affected their way of life in America today.

Or are you looking for the statistics of BLM riots destroying black business? Here is one in Minnesota.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/black-owned-restaurant-responded-burned-protests/story?id=71049195
An Ethiopian restaurant???? You BLM rioters can't read a map??
According to the article, the owners were neutral about it ... but all the waiters and cooks are out of jobs. Great job BLM rioters.
If you want me to list more black businesses being burn down by BLM, I can ... but as I do, I will remind you the employees are jobless.

It was sarcastic joke. If you didn't get the joke of inviting someone that advocates Stealing into your home for dinner, I suggest you don't actually invite her.

 

First of all, if you are going to joke, be funnier, because that was pretty weak.

Second, great one incident.  When we look historically there is Black Wallstreet, and Tulsa just off the top of my head.

You are the one saying that we can't judge all cops bad because there are good ones, why do we judge all protesters because there are bad ones?

Lastly, this doesn't feel like you want to learn anything about this or are interested in a dialogue, because you still haven't responded to Kay Fury, who again, is a woman of color in the heart of Minneapolis, so I don't think we have anywhere to go until you go back and do that.  If she still even wants to respond to you?

[The Map Guy]

4 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Kay Fury

Who is Kay Fury? The woman in the video?

Anyway gtg.

[Guy Kilmore]

10 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Who is Kay Fury? The woman in the video?

Anyway gtg.

No a poster who quoted and responded to you twice, speaking specifically to things in Minneapolis you were saying, you must of have missed it, I would encourage you to go back in the thread then.

ETA:  Also we are looking at 13 unarmed black men who were shot down by police, and this is not counting for those who died from beatings, tasers, missclassifcation of charges, and while in custody.  Just an FYI. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/23/fact-check-how-many-unarmed-black-men-did-police-kill-2019/5322455002/ 

ETA2:  I was going by an old user name, my bad, it's @Fury Resurrected

[sologdin]

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I was speaking of crime rates in general. Suicide and accidental deaths are issues in themselves, but they aren't crimes (accidentally killing yourself isn't a crime, but accidentally killing someone else, that depends).

From the article you cited.

 

lolly--

there are four articles there, NB. 

as i was pointing out, the allegation that rural 'crime rates' are significantly lower is controverted, that is, a matter of contention.  because there are unambiguous items of evidence going in each direction at various levels and under varying scopes of analysis, the aggregate of the evidence is not unambiguous. the suggestion that the question is not controverted is accordingly manifestly erroneous.  This only means that there's a lot of nuance to the question. 

your point was about crime rates in general--perhaps there is a point there--though it is vulnerable to the same objection you had lodged about statewide rates: rurality and urbanity are not monolithic. 

a generic consideration of crime rates is also one of the gun lobby's sleights of mind, such as comparing state-reported crime rates in the US  and UK, and, finding the UK's worse, concluding heroically that it is because of increased gun presence.  that cavalier inference aside, the difficulty with the argument is that the definitions of crime that are the subject of a rate differ between the US and UK--the US definition has historically excluded evidence that the UK definition sweeps up.

and as for the pediatrics article, if a juvenile is involved in an accidental shooting or a suicide, there's likely been a crime committed.

[Maithanet]

5 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

No a poster who quoted and responded to you twice, speaking specifically to things in Minneapolis you were saying.

Her handle is Fury Resurrected now.

[Guy Kilmore]

3 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Her handle is Fury Resurrected now.

My bad, post will be edited to reflect as such, thanks for the correction.