US Politics: Talk Radio Ravings and Other Mindless Mouthing

[Lollygag]

 21 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Trump is like a Tywin Lannister. You may hate him and his alpha-maleness ... but you are asking me to replace him with Joe Biden, who is like a Walder Frey. C'mon man!

Trump is phenomenally stupid and no Tywin at all. And Trump is no alpha male. They don't rely on getting what they want by throwing fits like toddlers, need their Daddys to bail them out of all of their messes, understand that a flu vaccine can't be swapped out with a covid one, know not to inject themselves with bleach....

Btw, GRRM said Trump is Joffrey.

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/334955-george-rr-martin-compares-trump-to-king-joffrey

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“I think Joffrey is now the king in America,” George R.R. Martin says in an interview with Esquire published Wednesday.

“And he’s grown up just as petulant and irrational as he was when he was thirteen in the books,” Martin said.

Most of what you say just reads as angry and wanting to lash out. The specific reasoning you cited just doesn't hold up.

Going into the details of George Floyd's murder doesn't have the weight you ascribe to it to justify your position. It was the straw that broke the camel's back plus the pandemic when people were minimally distracted and able to take time to fully process the situation of the murder itself and the world in which it happened.

The odd insistence on the co-worker relationship doesn't invalidate the reason for the protests, and being co-workers isn't mutually exclusive to racism. At all. And the guy who said they "bumped heads" has admitted to getting George Floyd mixed up with another person. The nightclub owner's not sure the two even really knew each other. It appears you've jumped on the paycheck issue but ignored the accounts where Chauvin had aggression problems, especially with the black clientele.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads-changes-story/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/derek-chauvin-nightclub-george-floyd-security-shifts-el-nuevo-rodeo-minneapolis/

https://apnews.com/69beaad97dcea2dce6c2184e0f5b5e4e

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NEW YORK (AP) — A white Minneapolis police officer and the black man he’s charged with killing both worked as security guards at the same Latin nightclub as recently as last year, but its former owner says she’s not sure if they knew each other.

What she is certain of is how aggressive Officer Derek Chauvin became when the club hosted events that drew a mainly black clientele, responding to fights by taking out his mace and spraying the crowd, a tactic she told him was unjustified “overkill.”

“He would mace everyone instead of apprehending the people who were fighting,” said Maya Santamaria, former owner of El Nuevo Rodeo club in Minneapolis. “He would call backup. The next thing you would know, there would five or six squad cars.”

 

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My intention is letting BLM supporters know that they are using a false martyr in George Floyd, as a champion of racist police brutality, as an excuse to divide COVID America at its lowest point. I have voted Democrat my entire life, and people like me around NYC and America are voting Trump because we don't want BLM's false narrative shoved down our throats as an excuse to destroy our jobs and safety. Racist cops are not the priority-concern of law abiding citizens. Criminals are.

....

I don't deny racism in America or in the police force. But as a law-abiding citizen, racist police are the bottom of my list of concerns. And I don't want Minnesota's problems or Wisconsin's problems or Missouri's problems ripple their effects here in New York. I don't want the beef between two Minnesota co-workers ruining people's lives here in New York. If you guys like sharing problems between states, please take more of our NYC first-wave COVID. Please accept some of the San Fran homeless people into your neighborhoods. 

As a family man, I care about safety ... but BLM wants to defund the police.
As a working man, I care about job safety ... but BLM are destroying businesses.
As an American with 1st Amendment rights ... Cancel Culture wants to fire people from their jobs if they have different opinions.

For all of your reasoning, what's really going on seems to be that you don't care and don't want to be bothered and are mitigating this by claiming a "false narrative". This isn't a "Minnesota problem", it's a US problem. Hence why protests erupted everywhere. If you really want to point to the source of the division - Trump could have done what just about any other president would have done and acknowledged the problem, begun a process on solutions, and you know, shown some empathy and thus diffused tensions. Instead, Trump says when people are wrongly killed, he doesn't care, and then acts all surprised when people have the most predictable reaction to that. Or maybe he's not so surprised and this is what he wanted all along.

What's with this idea that if you're a law-abiding citizen, racist cops aren't your concern? This statement doesn't even make sense.

Story time: I have a speeding habit and I was blowing by a co-worker driving like a Grandma on the way to work in the mornings. One day I asked him why he drove like that. He said he'd get pulled over if he drove faster. It must have been really bad based on how slowly he drove, but me, the white girl, gets to speed all over the place never getting tickets. He has to live his whole life driving being hyper vigilant about his every move. It's especially messed up as he's a vet. It's the same story we hear from black men all. the. time.

Ths safety and rights stuff, you haven't done your research here.

It's not defund the police. It's to have the police not doing things like social work and reallocating funds to the appropriate professionals and departments. Democrats are crap at this stuff and they stepped in it again with a really bad choice of words.

Job safety - again, this looks like you picking and choosing for a certain result. Trump is forcing people back to work in a pandemic with no effort to provide proper protective equipment or testing. If he had been on this early this year, we could be both back at work by now and safely at that. He's also kneecapped OSHA.

Look at Trump's twitter feed - he's the king of cancel culture.

It's not mutually exclusive to both be very upset with destructive and violent protests and to strongly support peaceful protests. There's no choice here. In fact, those who favor peaceful protests and advancement of the cause have reason to be the most angry at the violence and destruction. And what's the real reason people protest? They feel like they're not being heard. That's all on Trump. If he had acknowledged the problem of George Floyd's death (and more importantly, why it was the straw that broke the camel's back), he would have immediately diffused tension.

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On 8/26/2020 at 11:24 AM, larrytheimp said:

let a white kid in Kenosha shoot up protesters and run away through the street, still carrying his rifle, unmolested.

This is a fresh one, I would love to hear the full story before I make a judgment. But from what I see in the only video available so far is a teenager trying to defend himself as he was being chased down. He was running towards the police. He tripped, and one guy kicked him in the head, another tried to whack him with a skateboard (seriously ... don't bring a skateboard to this type of fight). The last guy did bring a gun to a gunfight, but was slow to the draw and was shot in the arm. One second slower, this teenager with the AR-15 would have been shot dead. But I refuse to make a judgment until I find out what happened prior to him fleeing ... but it is important to state that he only shot at his assaulters and no innocent bystanders.

If you guys want to rush to judgment, go ahead. I learned my lessons from Jussie Smollett, Nick Sandmann and now George Floyd.

I know the kid is 17 and he shouldn't have been there ... but then again you can make the same case for all BLM rioters.

It really looks like you were eager to jump to a conclusion on Floyd's murder not being racism and insisting it must have been personal (again, not mutually exclusive to racism) because it fits the conclusion you wanted to reach, but for the vigilante teenager, you want to reserve judgement, perhaps because this appears less flattering to Trump.

The statement below is contradicted by the above statement that you don't deny racism in the US. You've totally gone all Lord Varys here which is why I find the statements about just not caring and wanting to not be bothered to be most believable.

21 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Rebutting the claim of that woman on how black people are modernly oppressed because of something that happened 150 years ago is a false narrative? My statistic is every immigrant that has arrived to America since and thrived. If you want to limit it the same skin color, I know a naturalized Bahamian neurologist and a naturalized Ghanaian airliner captain. Ask them how slavery affected their way of life in America today.

 

21 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Trump is an asshole. We all know he is an asshole. His voters know he is an asshole. BUT he wears it like armor ... and it can never be used to hurt him. So good luck trying to attack his character.

Trump is like a Tywin Lannister. You may hate him and his alpha-maleness ... but you are asking me to replace him with Joe Biden, who is like a Walder Frey. C'mon man!

Walder Frey is a rat.

Joe Biden ... Nice guy? Really?
Not racist? I can provide a few links. You know I can and they are nasty.
Respects women? I can provide a few links. You know I can and they are nasty.

If you guys want to vote for rat that has a track record of sitting around doing nothing ... go ahead ... free country.

I rather have an asshole lead the country than a rat hiding in the basement.

The character issue is different this time because it's directly tied to his inability to do the job. And here's the thing about Biden: whatever you can throw at him with any legitimacy, Trump has done 100x worse. Biden always wins this one. The rat in the basement? You do realize a huge chunk of America is working from home in their basements? And it's stupid to unnecessarily expose himself to Covid. Covid-denial has us in the crap position we're in now with a projected 317,000+ deaths by December and a much, much worse economy. Biden has also done a lot more in his life than Trump's hanging on Daddy's coattails, stealing from him, getting bailouts, and all of the bankruptcies.

You're talking about crime going up in general - a good amount of that is the pandemic (grossly exacerbated by Trump whom you support) and Congress not helping (also blocked by Republicans and Trump). Drug and alcohol abuse will go up and this will lead to more crime. I know who I blame for the crime.

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So with it established that the only reason that makes sense here is that you're angry, lashing out, are upset by the changes, don't care and don't want to be bothered, I'll go back to ASOIAF since we're both more book-side people.

There are so many parallels between Trump, Walls, Others, For the Watch, I'm gonna get mine and screw anyone else, more, but maybe I'll get to that later.

 

ADWD Jon VIII

 

Septon Cellador pursed his lips. "Salvation can be found only through the Seven. This witch has doomed them all."

"And saved the Wall, mayhaps," said Bowen Marsh. "These are enemies we speak of. Let them pray amongst the ruins, and if their gods send ships to carry them off to a better world, well and good. In this world I have no food to feed them."

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. "Cotter Pyke's galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there, of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands."

"Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings."

Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold. "Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?"

Above the door the raven muttered, "Dead, dead, dead."

"Let me tell you what will happen," Jon said. "The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us." He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. "You have my leave to go."

Septon Cellador rose grey-faced and sweating, Othell Yarwyck stiffly, Bowen Marsh tight-lipped and pale. "Thank you for your time, Lord Snow." They left without another word.

 

ADWD Jon XI

Yet even that did not appease his Lord Steward. "You say these boys will serve as squires. Surely the lord commander does not mean they will be trained at arms?"

Jon's anger flared. "No, my lord, I mean to set them to sewing lacy smallclothes. Of course they shall be trained at arms. They shall also churn butter, hew firewood, muck stables, empty chamber pots, and run messages … and in between they will be drilled with spear and sword and longbow."

Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. "The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night's Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath."

"I know what I swore." Jon said the words. "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?"

"They were. As the lord commander knows."

"Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?" Jon waited for an answer. None came. "I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?"

Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.

 

After the battle with the Weeper, Marsh comes back hardened, changed, his focus solely on the wildlings when the real enemy is the Others. So. Trumpy.

ASOS Jon IX

When he heard the rattle of the winch chains and the iron groan of the cage door opening, he knew it would be Hobb bringing their breakfast as he did every morning. The sight of Mance's turtle had robbed Jon of his appetite. Their oil was all but gone, and the last barrel of pitch had been rolled off the Wall two nights ago. They would soon run short of arrows as well, and there were no fletchers making more. And the night before last, a raven had come from the west, from Ser Denys Mallister. Bowen Marsh had chased the wildlings all the way to the Shadow Tower, it seemed, and then farther, down into the gloom of the Gorge. At the Bridge of Skulls he had met the Weeper and three hundred wildlings and won a bloody battle. But the victory had been a costly one. More than a hundred brothers slain, among them Ser Endrew Tarth and Ser Aladale Wynch. The Old Pomegranate himself had been carried back to the Shadow Tower sorely wounded. Maester Mullin was tending him, but it would be some time before he was fit to return to Castle Black.

 

ADWD Jon III

Bowen Marsh edged his mount up next to Jon's. "This is a day I never thought to see." The Lord Steward had thinned notably since suffering a head wound at the Bridge of Skulls. Part of one ear was gone. He no longer looks much like a pomegranate, Jon thought. Marsh said, "We bled to stop the wildlings at the Gorge. Good men were slain there, friends and brothers. For what?"

 

Dude, you know who you sound like, right? BOWEN MARSH. Hiding behind Walls, hoping the wildlings go away because you don't care, wanting to be comfortable and safe, pretending, ignoring inconvenient parts of your oath (laws) which say you should be nice, LAW AND ORDER!

Seriously, you ok being Bowen Marsh? Wouldn't you rather be Jon Snow?

 

[Ran]

  

18 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't know how it'll work out, but it's certainly the case that he pointed his gun away from people who were not (from his perspective) attacking him. I think a lot really depends on the Rosenbaum situation and why that happened. We still don't know why he was being chased into the dealership lot. 

A NY Times reporter discusses more footage not previously covered in NY Time's visual timeline, from citizen journalist/content creator Koerri Elijah that seems to show things in the two minutes leading up to the shooting of Rosenbaum that no one else seems to have caught which I think answers the question of why Rittenhouse was being chased.

Elijah was present at the gas station when Rosenbaum and someone else seem to have set a dumpster alight (18:37), tried to push it toward the police and a militia guy put it out (18:55), causing the confrontation where Rosenbaum gets particularly angry (19:36, you can see him being kept back by some people and getting into the face of some of the militia guys here; there's another video that shows that confrontation much more clearly). Note that at 23:02, Rittenhouse is partially on the screen and is heard asking if anyone needs medical attention, and Elijah tells him he doesn't need any, he's good.

Later, Elijah sees Rittenhouse running off with a fire extinguisher (54:55) and decides to follow him.   He later sees him walking along the road with it (55:36 mark) while asking if anyone need medical help. Just a bit further down the road, we see Rosenbaum with some others (55:54), again setting something alight (this time a garbage bin). Less than a minute later (56:40), after Elijah turns back and starts going toward the dealership, you can see Rosenbaum jogging up to two people at a street sign -- almost certainly Rittenhouse and McGinnis talking. At 57:12, you can see people running on the dealership lot, and moments after the gunfire. 

I have a strong suspicion that Rittenhouse ended up putting out that garbage bin fire when he came across it, that Rosenbaum would either witness it or hear about it from someone, or alternatively glimpses a militia person (from the group he confronted earlier) carrying a fire extinguisher, and approached him about it, as he clearly believed (from the earlier incident) that putting out fires set up by protesters was disagreeable. 

 

[Week]

And then murdered two people with an illegal weapon. Again, all this effort and breath when he put himself in an almost certainly unsafe situation and it resulted to three people shot and two dead. I cannot believe the amount of effort to explain and defend actions that are indefensible if you can see the forest from the trees.

[Fragile Bird]

@Ran I only want to address the fact you have repeatedly mentioned Rittenhouse asks people if they need medical help. Ask yourself this question - if you were a protestor and a young person carrying an AR-15 walked up to you and asked you if you needed medical assistance, would you accept it? Or would you say to yourself “what kind of bullshit is this?”

[Ran]

Just now, Fragile Bird said:

@Ran I only want to address the fact you have repeatedly mentioned Rittenhouse asks people if they need medical help. Ask yourself this question - if you were a protestor and a young person carrying an AR-15 walked up to you and asked you if you needed medical assistance, would you accept it? Or would you say to yourself “what kind of bullshit is this?”

The people helping the young woman shot in the foot accepted his offer of help, according to the video, so I don't think we need to make a hypothetical of it.

[Week]

5 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

@Ran I only want to address the fact you have repeatedly mentioned Rittenhouse asks people if they need medical help. Ask yourself this question - if you were a protestor and a young person carrying an AR-15 walked up to you and asked you if you needed medical assistance, would you accept it? Or would you say to yourself “what kind of bullshit is this?”

Did he offer medical help to his victims? Did he call 911 or notify police of their injuries and death? Why didn't he take accountability and stop himself when police let him walk past as he left? What was he thinking about during the 30 minutes drive home after he had shot and killed people?

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Week said:

Did he offer medical help to his victims?

You watched the video and can judge for yourself.

2 minutes ago, Week said:

Did he call 911 or notify police of their injuries and death?

The last moment we see him, he approached police with hands up, went to the window, and backed away while apparently talking to them. We don't yet know what was said.

2 minutes ago, Week said:

Why didn't he take accountability and stop himself when police let him walk past as he left?

We don't know. Speculatively, with the police having no interest at the time, and people rightfully angry at him, leaving seemed prudent. We do know he voluntarily surrendered himself to the Antioch police the next day.

2 minutes ago, Week said:

What was he thinking about during the 30 minutes drive home after he had shot and killed people?

I assume you know the answer to this, since you seem to have far more certainty about the situation than anyone else in this thread.

[Week]

Nevermind. 

[Zorral]

So it has come to pass as one expected: white supremacist racist fascists see GOT as THEIR Bible. What tv wrought, because, you know, they would never read a BOOK that is as long the Got volumes.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So it has come to pass as one expected: white supremacist racist fascists see GOT as THEIR Bible. What tv wrought, because, you know, they would never read a BOOK that is as long the Got volumes.

Eh? Is this referring to Trump posting that image in the Game of Thrones font about building a wall, or something else?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

@Ran, I understand wanting more facts and not trying to draw a conclusion with an incomplete data set, but we have enough to make a reasonable conclusion. He's 1). a zealot, by all accounts, 2). has a vigilante mindset, 3). has a track record that includes being drunk while playing with a firearm, 4). illegally obtained a firearm, 5). illegally transported said firearm across state lines, 6). broke curfew, 7). disobeyed police orders and 8). brandished a firearm. All before he shot someone, killing two and wounding another. This person willingly put themselves in a dangerous situation while committing several crimes and ended up killing two people. 

[Ran]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

@Ran, I understand wanting more facts and not trying to draw a conclusion with an incomplete data set, but we have enough to make a reasonable conclusion. He's 1). a zealot, by all accounts

A zealot of what kind?

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, 2). has a vigilante mindset,

Intent matters, to be sure, but things get complicated when most of his time prior to this appears to be spent asking protesters if they needed any medical help. Would-be medics are not generally considered vigilantes, so I think it’s going to be hard to show he went there with a provocative intention based on what we know so far. 

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3). has a track record that includes being drunk while playing with a firearm,

Source? But no more material than Rosenbaum being an ex-felon or Gaige Grosskreutz having had a misdemeanor for carrying a firearm while drunk (actually, are you confusing these things?)

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4). illegally obtained a firearm,

This doesn’t have much revelance to most of the charges, on its own. Rosenbaum did not chase him because he was underage, from out of state, or carrying a stolen firearm. Ditto everyone else.

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5). illegally transported said firearm across state lines,

Ditto

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6). broke curfew,

Everyone else there as well. Not especially relevant.

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7). disobeyed police orders

Which?

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and 8). brandished a firearm.

When? Carrying a firearm is not brandishing.Is there information that he was pointing guns at people prior to the shootings?

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All before he shot someone, killing two and wounding another.

So he didn’t brandish?

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This person willingly put themselves in a dangerous situation while committing several crimes and ended up killing two people. 

Everyone else there had placed themselves in a dangerous situation, it must be said.

I definitely believe he broke the law on a number of points, including reckless endangerment. He should be punished. But the simple narratives about this one are, on their face, wrong. (Well, except for the ”Gun laws are fucked up.”)

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

You watched the video and can judge for yourself.

The last moment we see him, he approached police with hands up, went to the window, and backed away while apparently talking to them. We don't yet know what was said.

We don't know. Speculatively, with the police having no interest at the time, and people rightfully angry at him, leaving seemed prudent. We do know he voluntarily surrendered himself to the Antioch police the next day.

I assume you know the answer to this, since you seem to have far more certainty about the situation than anyone else in this thread.

I am not ‘judging’ I am asking if you would take assistance from a guy carrying an AR-15. I will never be faced with that problem, no one in Toronto shows up to a protest carrying an AR-15. Do they do that in Sweden? As an American are you so comfortable with guns that you would accept that assistance? I did see that everybody but that one person refused to have anything to do with him.

There’s a detailed breakdown shown this morning on CNN.  Maybe he was trying to surrender to police, maybe he wasn’t.  What is clear is that people were shouting to the police that HE WAS THE SHOOTER! And the police ignored the people calling out to them. They saw a nice white boy with his AR-15 reporting people were shot. So they left.

Was Victim #1 carrying a gun? Even if he was chasing Rittenhouse because he tried to put out the dumpster fire, does that excuse Rittenhouse shooting him?

That CNN piece came up with video I hadn’t seen before. Rittenhouse trips and is on the ground, and Victim #2 looks like he jumped over him trying to grab the gun. Rittenhouse shoots him. Victim #3 is approaching. He is holding a handgun, but his hand is actually down, the gun pointed at the ground. Rittenhouse shoots him.

I can see the right is going to blame all of this on wild-eyed Marxists trying to kill the Noble White Man just Doing his Job, protecting people.

I don’t think Victim #1 ever thought Rittenhouse would kill him. He wouldn’t have have approached him if the thought crossed his mind. I don’t think Victim #2 thought he was going to be gunned down. I don’t think Victim #3 thought the little shit would keep shooting.

The signal I see here is that the right wingers now believe they can go to protests with their guns and shoot down their fellow citizens. And that’s one fucking hell of a state of affairs for the US.

 

[Ormond]

25 minutes ago, Ran said:

Eh? Is this referring to Trump posting that image in the Game of Thrones font about building a wall, or something else?

I believe Zorral is probably referring to "The Map Guy" saying Trump is Tywin Lannister and Biden is Walder Frey on this thread, above. 

[Ran]

57 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

@Ran 3). has a track record that includes being drunk while playing with a firearm, 

Looked more into this and I see that the Internet again played detective. Found references to this sort of claim, but you'll note in comments and in the correction at the end of the article that the hobbyist detectives actually pulled up records of a different Kyle Rittenhouse (Kyle J. Rittenhouse rather than Kyle H. Rittenhouse). As far as anyone can see, Rittenhouse has no priors.

@Fragile Bird

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I am not ‘judging’ I am asking if you would take assistance from a guy carrying an AR-15.

If I were injured, I guess so? The problem is that Canada has sane gun laws and the US doesn't. There are people who are perfectly decent people who also love guns and carry them around when they can. It's crazy, I know. More importantly, we don't really need to wonder if people at a protest would accept his offer of medical help because we have video footage of people doing so. So however bizarre it seems from Canada, Sweden, or indeed in the U.S., it is what it is.

 

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What is clear is that people were shouting to the police that HE WAS THE SHOOTER! And the police ignored the people calling out to them. They saw a nice white boy with his AR-15 reporting people were shot. So they left.

Yes, it's all very unclear. Presumably the officers in that car will be debriefed and questioned by prosecutors to figure out what was said, if anything, and whether he tried to omit anything or whether they just rolled by without any interest. I think the police chief had no explanation beyond speculation about the officers having "tunnel vision" and just focusing on getting to where people were shot rather than looking for who did the shooting. It's not very satisfactory, but hopefully the truth will out.

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Was Victim #1 carrying a gun? Even if he was chasing Rittenhouse because he tried to put out the dumpster fire, does that excuse Rittenhouse shooting him?

From the video footage and testimony from a witness, the shooting happened because after chasing him into the lot, Rosenbaum apparently tried to take control of Rittenhouse's gun. Whether this constitutes the kind of imminent threat that justifies self-defense under Wisconsin law, I do not know. The "duty to retreat" does seem, at least, to have been met by the fact that he tried to get away from Rosenbaum. I guess one question will be why he turned and stopped running -- whether his way was blocked or the gun shot he heard made him think Rosenbaum was shooting at him or whether he just thought, 'Hey, now I can light him up' -- and I'm sure the court will be looking at that pretty closely.

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Victim #2 looks like he jumped over him trying to grab the gun.

A photograph makes it look like he tried to kick him and then, yes, tried to get the gun when Rittenhouse fired and he stumbled away (fortunately this man was not hit and got away from the situation). 

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https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/clashes-between-protesters-and-armed-civilians-who-protect-news-photo/1228205707?adppopup=true

Again, the video shows that Rittenhouse points his gun away from him after he raises his hands -- and then Grosskreutz lunges for the gun, which is when he's shot. Whether lunging for Rittenhouse's weapon as part of a group that is trying to stop him (from, seemingly, going to the police line) justifies being shot according to the law, the court will decide.

ETA: There is an interesting piece about this from The Atlantic that talks about people like Rittenhouse growing up being taught a "sheepdog mentality" regarding guns -- that their use of firearms protects people and that it's their duty to use their knowledge and weapons to help people. 

[DanteGabriel]

Speaking purely from optics and an analysis of how I think this will play out: I think there are enough complicating facts about Rittenhouse's actions and the protesters to muddy things up enough that middle-of-the-road white voters will dismiss the injustice of it and come to support the baby-faced white guy with a rifle. This will, of course, be aided by deliberate distortion pushed by a well-coordinated right wing arglebargle operation, complicity/both-sidesing in the mainstream media, and a propagandistically run defense effort by some Republican lawyers who'll be on the fast track to federal judgeships and Justice Department positions in the next Republican administration.

I don't like it, I think it's evidence of a sickening double standard in American culture, where grafitti and property damage are seen as more worrisome than actual murder. But I think that's how it plays out politically and culturally, because middle-of-the-road white Americans are just looking for anything to make them accept or be comfortable with right wing violence. 

[sologdin]

 some Republican lawyers

well, if it's a bad state case, then attorneys of any political preference should be willing to defend it, as there's no need for wrongful conviction or for putting yet more people in prison needlessly.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

A zealot of what kind?

His classmates all say he'd freak out if you said anything bad about Trump. That's the behavior of a zealot. One who can't control themselves, I might add.

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Intent matters, to be sure, but things get complicated when most of his time prior to this appears to be spent asking protesters if they needed any medical help. Would-be medics are not generally considered vigilantes, so I think it’s going to be hard to show he went there with a provocative intention based on what we know so far. 

Batman helps people too. He's still a vigilante. Yes the kid was helping a few people.....before he started murdering people.....

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Source? But no more material than Rosenbaum being an ex-felon or Gaige Grosskreutz having had a misdemeanor for carrying a firearm while drunk (actually, are you confusing these things?)

Best I can tell he has three open/pending cases, but it gets mixed up with a person of the same name who got caught with some pot. 

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This doesn’t have much revelance to most of the charges, on its own. Rosenbaum did not chase him because he was underage, from out of state, or carrying a stolen firearm. Ditto everyone else.

What? So it doesn't matter that an illegally obtained gun was brought to a situation? Okay..... 

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Everyone else there as well. Not especially relevant.

Did everyone else bring a weapon of war looking for trouble? It's entirely relevant. 

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Which?

All reports indicate the cops told him to get the fuck out of the area before the shooting started. 

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When? Carrying a firearm is not brandishing.Is there information that he was pointing guns at people prior to the shootings?

Witnesses are claiming he did point it at people when there was no threat. That would be brandishing. 

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Everyone else there had placed themselves in a dangerous situation, it must be said.

I definitely believe he broke the law on a number of points, including reckless endangerment. He should be punished. But the simple narratives about this one are, on their face, wrong. (Well, except for the ”Gun laws are fucked up.”)

No, not at all. Everyone did not go there with the mindset that they might shoot someone. The murderer did, and after he killed someone, and recognized what he did, he shot two more people, killing another.

I have no idea why you're caping for this kid when all signs point to him being a bigoted loner who liked guns and ended up killing people. 

[Week]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I have no idea why you're caping for this kid when all signs point to him being a bigoted loner who liked guns and ended up killing people. 

This. At this point the only relationship between this and US politics is his fervent support for the current administration.

... "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" ...

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

His classmates all say he'd freak out if you said anything bad about Trump.

He will hopefully grow out of it, probably after time in a correctional facility, but I thought it was some sort of militant violence you were talking about. Being a stan for the orange buffoon doesn't necessarily mean you want to kill people.

 

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That's the behavior of a zealot. One who can't control themselves, I might add.

If their accounts are objectively accurate. Fuck if I know what teenagers consider freaking out to be. Having been a high school student, half of what teenagers say about one another is bullshit.

I can totally accept he is all in on Trump. Thank god he's too young to vote.

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Yes the kid was helping a few people...

A fact I point out merely to show that the simplistic narrative that he went out there to shoot people doesn't work, and the prosecutors can't rely on that if they want to disprove self-defense. All this stuff about illegal open carry and being underage means bad judgment and the horrors of US gun culture, but in and of itself the fact that he spent more time trying to help protesters  than anything else caught on camera will complicate the case for the prosecution. 

 

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What? So it doesn't matter that an illegally obtained gun was brought to a situation? Okay..... 

Not according to the law in Wisconsin for self-defense claims, which I presume is what his defense will be. 

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Did everyone else bring a weapon of war looking for trouble? It's entirely relevant. 

There were, actually, several protesters with pistols who were not part of the militia group. You can see them in the gasoline station confrontation, hear one in Koerri Elijah's video talking about how he was ready to shoot if the militia did, and Gaige Grosskreutz did as well.

"Looking for trouble" suggests he was hoping to get into a confrontation. Yet when Rosenbaum jogs over to him for whatever reason, McGinnis says -- and the video later shows -- that he ran away from him.

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All reports indicate the cops told him to get the fuck out of the area before the shooting started. 

No, the video clearly shows police were telling him that he could not go back to the other dealership where he had originally intended to post himself, and pointed him to go the other way, which is where he went.

Obviously, police were advising everyone to go home because it was after curfew, but people seem to hold little opinion of police curfews.

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Witnesses are claiming he did point it at people when there was no threat.

I'd be curious to a source. All the photos I've seen prior to the shootings always have the gun at his side or pointed downward, not brandished.

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Everyone did not go there with the mindset that they might shoot someone.

Some non-militia people did go there with the same mindset, bringing guns to protect themselves from police, militia folk, perhaps other, more violent protesters. The question is not did they think they might end up shooting someone, but did they hope to shoot someone and/or did they try to provoke a situation where they'd shoot someone.

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The murderer did, and after he killed someone, and recognized what he did, he shot two more people, killing another.

But this again goes back to the questions of what happened with Rosenbaum and what followed. His knowing he shot someone from what he may have seen as self-defense doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to let people beat him up (as some shouted at him, and tried to do).  Like I said before, he could both be intending to get to the police  to tell them what happened and/or surrender himself and people could believe he was attempting to flee apprehension at the same time. 

 

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I have no idea why you're caping for this kid

Can't say I appreciate the aspersion in what has been an otherwise civil discussion.

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when all signs point to him being a bigoted loner

This bigoted loner was offering help to people he's supposed to be bigoted against? That makes no sense to me, which is why I think some of the terms and some of the narratives about what happened are wrong.

Just to be clear, I think he should be punished. The reckless homicide, the reckless endangerment, carrying the weapon while under age. The first degree intentional homicide that started it all, I am significantly less certain about.