Sansa's concepts on Sisters: Margaery vs. Arya

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Sansa is shallow and superficial.  There's not much of a character in there.  She is a very selfish person is all.  I don't think she will survive during the long winter. 

I'm not a huge Sansa fan, but as I read in hopes of a new read it is clear that Sansa in AGOT really is just a little girl.  While few children aren't shallow or superficial there are reasons for them being so when they are.   (I use the term "spoiled brat" to describe Sansa in AGOT).  Sansa was raised for a specific purpose by a High Lord and High Lady.  Concern for things beyond the part she had to play don't appear to have been stressed to her.  Arya thinks Sansa has no head for sums or managing a household as though these subjects were not stressed to her.  I don't like a good many things Sansa does, but she does learn the repercussions of all her actions.    That's a little like Jamie, who we like a lot less than this silly child in AGOT.   As we get in their thoughts we see things neither character necessarily expresses so much as attempts to make a part of their new world orders.   Sansa learns what horrible people her awe inspiring Queen and gallant prince charming really are in a very brutal way just as Jamie grapples with oaths and their true meaning at the cost of his sword hand.   Alayne Stone is a pretty far cry from Lady Stark or Princess Sansa, but I can't imagine it's an easy thing to lose one's entire education of refinement.  She screws up.  All the characters screw up.  Characters like Sansa or Jamie or Theon have done some pretty stupid, rotten things, betrayal prominent among them.  They pay and they grow.   Sansa is still a girl hidden in Alayne Stone.   She's got to tell herself not to think in terms of Sansa Stark.   How easy could that be for a 14-15 year-old girl?   She's trying and that separates her from the Vargo Hoats and Crasters of her world.    

I think she will do OK.   I hope you will read her someday and see the growth of her character.  If only all spoiled brats got a clue, even late, the world would be a better place.   

[John Suburbs]

On 8/28/2020 at 1:30 PM, Curled Finger said:

As a little girl, Sansa appreciates form over substance.  Marg is older which is a common thing for a young girl to desire the attention from where Arya is younger and therefore not on equal ground--all that worldly experience Sansa wants to have.   While your breakdown is pretty interesting I think the matter of the whole Tyrell  "romancing" of Sansa to gain intel on Joffrey is also an important factor here.   And Sansa is very relieved to not have to marry Joffrey.   It's interesting that Sansa doesn't reflect on Arya being spot on in her assessment of Joff & Cersei.  Sounds to me like Arya did her job as a pesky and bothersome (and embarrassing) younger sister well.   

This, plus Margaery doesn't throw oranges at Sansa, spoiling her gowns. Margaery dresses in pretty clothes and acts every bit the noble lady. And there is no lingering resentment for having caused the death of her wolf -- although I'm not so sure that Sansa hasn't re-evaluated her feelings toward Arya at this point. It is odd, though, that she doesn't think about Arya at all. But then again, she doesn't seem to dwell on anyone she believes is dead.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This, plus Margaery doesn't throw oranges at Sansa, spoiling her gowns. Margaery dresses in pretty clothes and acts every bit the noble lady. And there is no lingering resentment for having caused the death of her wolf -- although I'm not so sure that Sansa hasn't re-evaluated her feelings toward Arya at this point. It is odd, though, that she doesn't think about Arya at all. But then again, she doesn't seem to dwell on anyone she believes is dead.

The bolded here is not correct. ACOK, Sansa II:

Quote

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked.

It's abundantly clear that her thoughts of her family, friend and septa happen multiple times.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

The bolded here is not correct. ACOK, Sansa II:

It's abundantly clear that her thoughts of her family, friend and septa happen multiple times.

I stand corrected.

But this is relatively recently after their deaths/disappearances, however. Is this the last time Arya or anyone else enters her thoughts?

And I've never noticed this before: everyone else thinks Arya is dead. Why would Sansa think she is alive and living carefree back at Winterfell? Simple denial?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But this is relatively recently after their deaths/disappearances, however. Is this the last time Arya or anyone else enters her thoughts?

I don't know for sure if this is the last time, but I interpret "sometimes" and "once in a while" to mean ongoing things, even if they're not explicitly referred to in the text each time. For example, we are not told constantly that characters eat or sleep or go to the bathroom, yet we know that they must be doing these things all along.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And I've never noticed this before: everyone else thinks Arya is dead. Why would Sansa think she is alive and living carefree back at Winterfell? Simple denial?

Rather than simple denial, I'm inclined to believe it's more like she just doesn't know. The last information she had was that there was a boat waiting to take them back to Winterfell and she doesn't really have a way to discover that Arya didn't get aboard and leave on schedule. She doesn't have much contact with the outside world, so info is hard to come by for her.

I can't remember if she's even heard about Fake Arya married to Ramsay. She may or may not have, I just don't remember.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

[Sansa] doesn't have much contact with the outside world, so info is hard to come by for her.

I can't remember if she's even heard about Fake Arya married to Ramsay. She may or may not have, I just don't remember.

I'm pretty sure that Sansa has not yet heard about "Arya's" marriage. The Vale seems pretty secluded and insular, and Baelish probably has advised the maesters to do nothing to enlighten his "daughter" when news comes in from the outside world. Sansa might well get much of her news through Myranda Royce, who may not (or may) think that the doings in far-off "Winterfell" are of any interest to her new bastard friend. Those Northerners are such savages, don't ya know.

In addition to seeing "Alayne's" reactions to learning "Arya" is now the Lady of Winterfell, I'm hoping she will also learn about how the Hound has gone outlaw and his many atrocities at Saltpans (etc.)  What will she think about that? (Meanwhile, the actual identity of "the Hound" keeps changing ... latest we've seen, it's Lem.)

[Curled Finger]

On 8/31/2020 at 9:35 AM, John Suburbs said:

This, plus Margaery doesn't throw oranges at Sansa, spoiling her gowns. Margaery dresses in pretty clothes and acts every bit the noble lady. And there is no lingering resentment for having caused the death of her wolf -- although I'm not so sure that Sansa hasn't re-evaluated her feelings toward Arya at this point. It is odd, though, that she doesn't think about Arya at all. But then again, she doesn't seem to dwell on anyone she believes is dead.

Heck yes.  

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

I'm pretty sure that Sansa has not yet heard about "Arya's" marriage.

Thanks.

3 hours ago, zandru said:

The Vale seems pretty secluded and insular, and Baelish probably has advised the maesters to do nothing to enlighten his "daughter" when news comes in from the outside world. Sansa might well get much of her news through Myranda Royce, who may not (or may) think that the doings in far-off "Winterfell" are of any interest to her new bastard friend. Those Northerners are such savages, don't ya know.

In addition to seeing "Alayne's" reactions to learning "Arya" is now the Lady of Winterfell, I'm hoping she will also learn about how the Hound has gone outlaw and his many atrocities at Saltpans (etc.)  What will she think about that? (Meanwhile, the actual identity of "the Hound" keeps changing ... latest we've seen, it's Lem.)

Sansa has been really isolated, both in Kings Landing where she was surrounded by Cersei's spies and in the Vale just generally, since it's so remote.

Yeah, I imagine "Alayne" is going to get a boatload of new info after coming down from the mountain. That'll be fun.

[Elegant Woes]

On 8/31/2020 at 6:35 PM, John Suburbs said:

It is odd, though, that she doesn't think about Arya at all.

Sansa has a habit of not thinking about the people she cares about. That's her coping mechanism. You cannot expect Sansa to deal with her trauma like other characters. Sansa is Sansa. Arya processes trauma by dwelling on memories she shared with her family. Sansa processes her trauma by not thinking of her family. After all:

Quote

She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. (ACOK, Sansa II).

Furthermore even though Sansa does think Arya is unsatisfactory page later we see her dreaming of a potential daughter who looks like Arya. 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Furthermore even though Sansa does think Arya is unsatisfactory page later we see her dreaming of a potential daughter who looks like Arya. 

When was that?

And I don't blame Sansa for anything. She's had a lot on her plate, after all. But Arya, Bran, Cat, Ned, despite their own difficulties, repeatedly think of family and protecting them or taking comfort in their safety at the moment, but Sansa only once that we're aware of. When the snow falls and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

When was that?

And I don't blame Sansa for anything. She's had a lot on her plate, after all. But Arya, Bran, Cat, Ned, despite their own difficulties, repeatedly think of family and protecting them or taking comfort in their safety at the moment, but Sansa only once that we're aware of. When the snow falls and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.

The bolded part there is (again) incorrect. The text uses specific words that indicate multiple occasions of Sansa thinking of her family, even though it doesn't enumerate each one.

Quote

She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister.

You're really making an effort to give Sansa as little credit as possible, aren't you? 

[John Suburbs]

On 9/3/2020 at 11:34 AM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

The bolded part there is (again) incorrect. The text uses specific words that indicate multiple occasions of Sansa thinking of her family, even though it doesn't enumerate each one.

You're really making an effort to give Sansa as little credit as possible, aren't you? 

I'm not trying to do anything to poor Sansa. My impression has always been that she didn't think too often of her family, but it looks like I am in error. When was that second quote you posted? In Clash, or later in Storm or Feast? 

[Elegant Woes]

@John Suburbs We have already explained to you why Sansa doesn't think of her family often. Not dwelling on memories and those she loves and cares about is her way to cope with trauma. You would know this if you carefully took the time to read Sansa's chapters. 

[John Suburbs]

On 9/6/2020 at 6:47 PM, Elegant Woes said:

@John Suburbs We have already explained to you why Sansa doesn't think of her family often. Not dwelling on memories and those she loves and cares about is her way to cope with trauma. You would know this if you carefully took the time to read Sansa's chapters. 

There is no reason to get snotty.

As @The Ned's Little Girl has already pointed out, Sansa does dwell on the memories of those she loves and cares about, and you would know this if you carefully took the time to read Sansa's chapters.

My point was and always has been that Sansa seems more preoccupied with herself rather than the needs of her family. Look at Robb, Jon, Arya, Bran: all of them are initially focused on rejoining the family, right up to the point that it was no longer an option. Meanwhile Sansa declares them to be rebels and traitors and that she's a good girl. Why? Because she is unwilling to endure the hardships that defiance would bring. This is the coping mechanism she uses, and it is probably the reason she is alive and unharmed at this point. But the fact remains that while her mother and siblings are fighting the fight, Sansa is giddy about getting a new dress and the thought of marrying a Tyrell and getting to go to harvest balls and spring festivals with pretty flowers and singing birds.

Of all the Stark children, Sansa is the least capable of enduring the hardships that are necessary to remain true to her values. This does not make her a bad person. It makes her fragile and vulnerable, and someone who has lots of room to grow as a person as the story unfolds.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no reason to get snotty.

As @The Ned's Little Girl has already pointed out, Sansa does dwell on the memories of those she loves and cares about, and you would know this if you carefully took the time to read Sansa's chapters.

My point was and always has been that Sansa seems more preoccupied with herself rather than the needs of her family. Look at Robb, Jon, Arya, Bran: all of them are initially focused on rejoining the family, right up to the point that it was no longer an option. Meanwhile Sansa declares them to be rebels and traitors and that she's a good girl. Why? Because she is unwilling to endure the hardships that defiance would bring. This is the coping mechanism she uses, and it is probably the reason she is alive and unharmed at this point. But the fact remains that while her mother and siblings are fighting the fight, Sansa is giddy about getting a new dress and the thought of marrying a Tyrell and getting to go to harvest balls and spring festivals with pretty flowers and singing birds.

Of all the Stark children, Sansa is the least capable of enduring the hardships that are necessary to remain true to her values. This does not make her a bad person. It makes her fragile and vulnerable, and someone who has lots of room to grow as a person as the story unfolds.

The coping mechanism doesn’t quite work, as declaring them rebels and traitors does nothing to deter Joffrey from having his Kingsguard beat her.

Well, that’s if the story unfolds.

[Springwatch]

Still stirring the pot, @Angel Eyes ?

32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

declaring them rebels and traitors

But she didn't. She kept denying Ned was a traitor even when the entire Small Council said he was and it was witnessed and proved. Even when Cersei had Ned's letter in front of her.

And the other Starks - Sansa had to write and tell them to submit to the king's peace, not to denounce them as traitors.

Later on, when begging Joff for mercy, she insisted that Ned's 'treachery' only happened because he was too much in pain and too drugged to know what he was doing.

[Angel Eyes]

28 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Still stirring the pot, @Angel Eyes ?

But she didn't. She kept denying Ned was a traitor even when the entire Small Council said he was and it was witnessed and proved. Even when Cersei had Ned's letter in front of her.

And the other Starks - Sansa had to write and tell them to submit to the king's peace, not to denounce them as traitors.

Later on, when begging Joff for mercy, she insisted that Ned's 'treachery' only happened because he was too much in pain and too drugged to know what he was doing.

I’m talking about the second book.

[Elegant Woes]

@John Suburbs  Of course Sansa will not outright defy her captors. She will get beaten because of it. We see that in her last AGOT chapter where Sansa says she hates Joffrey and how Robb will defeat him in mortal combat and behead him. What does that earn her? Two back handed slaps that results in an internal ear bleeding and a busted lip. Surely you aren't expecting Sansa to continue this behavior right? Do you want her to die? Keeping your mouth shut and going along with them is the smartest thing to do. However just because Sansa's agency is limited she does try to fight back in any way she can. This is exactly why I asked whether you have read her chapters carefully. I didn't mean to sound snotty. I am just asking in the most kindest and politest way whether you have actually read Sansa's chapters. Because if you did you would know that most of Sansa's defiance is internal. 

Quote

There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies. (ACOK, Sansa IV)

Sansa thinks this after Sandor says his usual cynical and nihilistic nonsense. Instead of caving in to his beliefs Sansa rejects it and sticks to her own morals and belief. This is Sansa defying. 

Quote

. Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound . . . the Hound hated knights . . . I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them. (ACOK, Sansa III)

Despite just enduring a brutal beating Sansa continues to belief in chivalry and knighthood and that there are good knights out there. f this isn't an example of fiercely defying than I don't know what is. 

Quote

 

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me. (ACOK, Sansa VI)

 

Sansa literally says flat out no to a woman she once upon a time admired. Once again, this is defiance. 

I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point clear. Sansa no less fierce and aggressive in her morals and beliefs than her siblings. However you just don't notice them because Sansa's type of defiance is not very obvious. Sansa shows she is hero by staying gentle and kind. Every act of mercy Sansa shows (to Dontos, the woman in the riot, Lollys, and Lancel) is an act of defiance to her enemies and abusers. Sansa quite literally says no to the cycle of abuse at the age of twelve. If you can't see how baddass that is then I can't help you. Either you can appreciate the unique hero Sansa is or ignore her. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

On 9/6/2020 at 3:47 PM, Elegant Woes said:

You would know this if you carefully took the time to read Sansa's chapters. 

 

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no reason to get snotty.

As @The Ned's Little Girl has already pointed out, Sansa does dwell on the memories of those she loves and cares about, and you would know this if you carefully took the time to read Sansa's chapters.

@John Suburbs I have to agree with @Elegant Woes in that I don't have the impression that you are reading very carefully; at least not our posts in response to you. In my first post in response to you, I was careful to specifically point to the text that indicated Sansa thinking of her family multiple times (my full quote was "It's abundantly clear that her thoughts of her family, friend and septa happen multiple times.". Your later response to that was to say:

On 9/3/2020 at 8:08 AM, John Suburbs said:

But Arya, Bran, Cat, Ned, despite their own difficulties, repeatedly think of family and protecting them or taking comfort in their safety at the moment, but Sansa only once that we're aware of.

So I responded to that by repeating the relevant line from the book quote ("She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister.") that I had written out earlier and which reiterated the multiplicity of her thoughts. To which you replied:

On 9/6/2020 at 8:39 AM, John Suburbs said:

When was that second quote you posted? In Clash, or later in Storm or Feast? 

Which, if you had carefully read the book quote you would have realized that it wasn't a second quote, but two sentences contained in the first ACOK quote that I had posted earlier.

So, no, I don't agree that anyone is being snotty by pointing out that you simply are not reading the responses to you carefully enough. That's just being factual.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The coping mechanism doesn’t quite work, as declaring them rebels and traitors does nothing to deter Joffrey from having his Kingsguard beat her.

Well, that’s if the story unfolds.

No, but she thinks it will. Her coping mechanism is to be a good girl, to not make trouble, to do as she's told. None of the other Starks are like this.