Sansa's concepts on Sisters: Margaery vs. Arya

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@John Suburbs  Of course Sansa will not outright defy her captors. She will get beaten because of it. We see that in her last AGOT chapter where Sansa says she hates Joffrey and how Robb will defeat him in mortal combat and behead him. What does that earn her? Two back handed slaps that results in an internal ear bleeding and a busted lip. Surely you aren't expecting Sansa to continue this behavior right? Do you want her to die? Keeping your mouth shut and going along with them is the smartest thing to do. However just because Sansa's agency is limited she does try to fight back in any way she can. This is exactly why I asked whether you have read her chapters carefully. I didn't mean to sound snotty. I am just asking in the most kindest and politest way whether you have actually read Sansa's chapters. Because if you did you would know that most of Sansa's defiance is internal. 

Sansa thinks this after Sandor says his usual cynical and nihilistic nonsense. Instead of caving in to his beliefs Sansa rejects it and sticks to her own morals and belief. This is Sansa defying. 

Despite just enduring a brutal beating Sansa continues to belief in chivalry and knighthood and that there are good knights out there. f this isn't an example of fiercely defying than I don't know what is. 

Sansa literally says flat out no to a woman she once upon a time admired. Once again, this is defiance. 

I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point clear. Sansa no less fierce and aggressive in her morals and beliefs than her siblings. However you just don't notice them because Sansa's type of defiance is not very obvious. Sansa shows she is hero by staying gentle and kind. Every act of mercy Sansa shows (to Dontos, the woman in the riot, Lollys, and Lancel) is an act of defiance to her enemies and abusers. Sansa quite literally says no to the cycle of abuse at the age of twelve. If you can't see how baddass that is then I can't help you. Either you can appreciate the unique hero Sansa is or ignore her. 

Of course she doesn't defy them. That's my point. Arya would have defied them, Robb, Jon, Bran, even Rickon. ANd they would have all been tortured and even killed because of it. Sansa is the only one who would have played it this way, and this was key to her survival.

And again, you're not reading Sansa very carefully. She does continue to mouth off to Joffrey. She is constantly telling him "no, you can't", correcting his history, mocking his fighting skills . . . If she did shut up and give Joff what he wanted, she probably would not have been beaten, except for the last one after Oxcross which was more about Robb's victory there and not about Joffrey's hatred.

And if Sansa had placed her family's needs above her own, then yes, should could have chosen death. This way, they cannot use her as leverage over Robb. But that is a very tall order to ask of a 13yo girl. I'm not faulting her for any of this, mind you. I'm just pointing out how Sansa is different from her siblings. The others would not be internally defiant; they would be extremely external about it.

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

 

@John Suburbs I have to agree with @Elegant Woes in that I don't have the impression that you are reading very carefully; at least not our posts in response to you. In my first post in response to you, I was careful to specifically point to the text that indicated Sansa thinking of her family multiple times (my full quote was "It's abundantly clear that her thoughts of her family, friend and septa happen multiple times.". Your later response to that was to say:

So I responded to that by repeating the relevant line from the book quote ("She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister.") that I had written out earlier and which reiterated the multiplicity of her thoughts. To which you replied:

Which, if you had carefully read the book quote you would have realized that it wasn't a second quote, but two sentences contained in the first ACOK quote that I had posted earlier.

So, no, I don't agree that anyone is being snotty by pointing out that you simply are not reading the responses to you carefully enough. That's just being factual.

Yes, you did point that out, and I acknowledged my mistake, but I guess I never thanked you properly for it, so thanks.

Sorry, in five books and close to eight thousand pages, I failed to remember the exact placement of a single line that I did not know existed in the first place. Sue me. Without looking it up, who is the captain of Shayala's Dance, and where is this mentioned?

It was in Clash. Good. Thanks again. Sansa does not think much of her family later in the story, particularly after the Red Wedding. But then again, neither do the other Starks. No use dwelling on the dead, I guess.

But I still contend Sansa is different from her siblings. They would not have knuckled under to the Lannisters the way she did -- and more than likely this would have gotten them killed while she survived. So please don't get the idea that I'm saying Sansa is cruel or uncaring -- just that she's different. And this difference can be a boon or a bane to her.

[Elegant Woes]

Except both Jon and Arya's situation in Harrenhal and among the Wildlings isn't that much different from Sansa's situation in King's Landing. They don't react the way you expect them to. Arya learns to keep her mouth shut as cupbearer for Roose Bolton. Jon is coerced into having sex with Ygritte in order to hide his true intentions. Sounds to me they are just as capable to use Sansa's tactics. 

[Springwatch]

On 9/8/2020 at 9:17 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I’m talking about the second book.

Nooooo, not the second book. Poor little thing, she's not made out of titanium steel.

Besides, both Ned and Robb were publicly and sincerely in rebellion against King Joffrey, so there's not much point getting herself smacked about by the Kingsguard just to say the opposite. This basically is the status quo until either Cersei or Jaime confess publicly.

On 9/9/2020 at 4:36 PM, John Suburbs said:

Her coping mechanism is to be a good girl, to not make trouble, to do as she's told. None of the other Starks are like this.

Perhaps. She had to be taught that mechanism by the Hound though.

I disagree that she's unlike all other Starks. Seems to me that there's more quiet wolves than full on 'wolf-blooded'. It was said that Ned never liked killing, and that mostly fits with his character as we saw it.

She is the only one in the family who doesn't want to swordfight, but that's not so unusual in eleven year old girls; and she does wish for bloody vengeance on her family's enemies - so not totally pacifist either.

[Springwatch]

On 9/9/2020 at 5:39 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Except both Jon and Arya's situation in Harrenhal and among the Wildlings isn't that much different from Sansa's situation in King's Landing. They don't react the way you expect them to. Arya learns to keep her mouth shut as cupbearer for Roose Bolton. Jon is coerced into having sex with Ygritte in order to hide his true intentions. Sounds to me they are just as capable to use Sansa's tactics. 

Good points. Bran surrendered Winterfell to Theon too.

[Alaynsa Starne]

On 9/10/2020 at 12:44 AM, John Suburbs said:

And if Sansa had placed her family's needs above her own, then yes, should could have chosen death. This way, they cannot use her as leverage over Robb. But that is a very tall order to ask of a 13yo girl. I'm not faulting her for any of this, mind you. I'm just pointing out how Sansa is different from her siblings. The others would not be internally defiant; they would be extremely external about it.

The Lannisters tried to use Sansa as leverage over Robb, and Robb didn't respond to their demands at all. Sansa was useless to the Lannisters as a hostage until they married her to Tyrion. It's weird that you would comment that a little girl (who is 11/12, btw, not 13) has some sort of responsibility to be violently murdered so as to not be inconvenient for her older brother, especially when her being held hostage wasn't actually a detriment to his war effort. Her "choosing death" would just make her dead. It wouldn't in any way be placing her family's needs above her own.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

2 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

The Lannisters tried to use Sansa as leverage over Robb, and Robb didn't respond to their demands at all. Sansa was useless to the Lannisters as a hostage until they married her to Tyrion. It's weird that you would comment that a little girl (who is 11/12, btw, not 13) has some sort of responsibility to be violently murdered so as to not be inconvenient for her older brother, especially when her being held hostage wasn't actually a detriment to his war effort. Her "choosing death" would just make her dead. It wouldn't in any way be placing her family's needs above her own.

well she wasn't useless as she was used against Ned Stark. 

she was a prized hostage of the crown after the fall of the North. she was a noble hostage and as such was valuable to have or deny anyone else of having as well. she was not in danger of being violently murdered. except in like two situations. the bread riots and the Battle of Blackwater.  

[Alaynsa Starne]

2 minutes ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

well she wasn't useless as she was used against Ned Stark. 

she was a prized hostage of the crown after the fall of the North. she was a noble hostage and as such was valuable to have or deny anyone else of having as well. she was not in danger of being violently murdered. except in like two situations. the bread riots and the Battle of Blackwater.  

You should look at the quote I was responding to, that might clear up some of what you're trying to discuss, here.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

1 minute ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

You should look at the quote I was responding to, that might clear up some of what you're trying to discuss, here.

no need. my response is still the same. 

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

well she wasn't useless as she was used against Ned Stark. 

she was a prized hostage of the crown after the fall of the North. she was a noble hostage and as such was valuable to have or deny anyone else of having as well. she was not in danger of being violently murdered. except in like two situations. the bread riots and the Battle of Blackwater.  

Plus whenever the Kingsguard beat her. They’re wearing mail or plate gloves; hit her in the head with a bit too much force one day, she suffers an epidural hematoma (no idea what Westeros would call it) and dies.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Plus whenever the Kingsguard beat her. They’re wearing mail or plate gloves; hit her in the head with a bit too much force one day, she suffers an epidural hematoma (no idea what Westeros would call it) and dies.

I believe it is chainmail gloves that Sansa is hit by. 

as to her unfortunate demise at the hand with mail, it would still deny use of Sansa Stark by  the enemies of house Lannister. 

 

[Alaynsa Starne]

1 hour ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

no need. my response is still the same. 

How so? The person I was responding to was commenting specifically on how Sansa was being held hostage as leverage against Robb. You commented in response that she was a hostage against Ned, which isn't relevant to what he or I was talking about. The person I was replying to was also saying that if Sansa put her family's needs above her own, she would have been openly rebellious, provoking the Lannisters to respond violently and thus martyring herself for Robb's cause. That has nothing to do with the times she was in physical danger in-text because we're dealing with hypotheticals, so I don't see how the bread riots or Blackwater are relevant, either. 

[John Suburbs]

On 9/10/2020 at 12:57 PM, Springwatch said:

Perhaps. She had to be taught that mechanism by the Hound though.

I disagree that she's unlike all other Starks. Seems to me that there's more quiet wolves than full on 'wolf-blooded'. It was said that Ned never liked killing, and that mostly fits with his character as we saw it.

She is the only one in the family who doesn't want to swordfight, but that's not so unusual in eleven year old girls; and she does wish for bloody vengeance on her family's enemies - so not totally pacifist either.

It's not that she's a quiet wolf and isn't out for bloody vengeance. Ned, Jon, Bran, are all quiet wolves and even they don't submit as readily as Sansa did. It's that Sansa placed her own needs above those of her house, unlike most of her siblings (Rickon is too young for comparison). This is not a bad thing, however, since it was the only way she could have survived her particular situation. So in this way, it was not her weakness but her strength.

And the Hound didn't teach her to be a good girl. He just merely pointed out what she was already doing.

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

The Lannisters tried to use Sansa as leverage over Robb, and Robb didn't respond to their demands at all. Sansa was useless to the Lannisters as a hostage until they married her to Tyrion. It's weird that you would comment that a little girl (who is 11/12, btw, not 13) has some sort of responsibility to be violently murdered so as to not be inconvenient for her older brother, especially when her being held hostage wasn't actually a detriment to his war effort. Her "choosing death" would just make her dead. It wouldn't in any way be placing her family's needs above her own.

You see the difference between Sansa and Robb though? Sansa submits to the Lannisters and becomes a pawn in their game. Robb refused to play that game: he placed the needs of his house above his own needs to protect his sister.

It's not a matter of inconvenience. It's the Game of Thrones -- the only game that matters. Sansa would not be violently murdered in any case. If the Lannisters do that, they have no more cards to play. They've already lost Ned, they are not going to lose their last Stark.

So she is not choosing death. She can simply choose not to cooperate in Lannister schemes. Make them lock her in a tower, or in a black cell, but don't submit. Stay true to your family and your house.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

[Sansa] can simply choose not to cooperate in Lannister schemes. Make them lock her in a tower, or in a black cell, but don't submit. Stay true to your family and your house.

Exactly. Sansa could have done like Cersei, and wear her bruises as "badges of honor", but instead, she concealed them with makeup and overly concealing clothing. Had Sansa quietly made it clear what "King" Joffrey was doing to her, she'd have had some friends in court and among the servants - and Joffrey would have had fewer. By being "the good girl", she saved herself zero beatings, as far as we can tell, and gained much additional humiliation.

Sure, Arya in contrast was fully capable of keeping quiet and following orders, but she remained rebellious, keeping in touch with her friends, learning the names and habits of others, practicing her water dancing whenever she could. This despite performing exhausting physical labor all day. In spite of this, Arya was always waiting for means and opportunities to escape. Let's add that, even though Arya knew she would do better on her own because of her skills in riding, woodsmanship, and swordplay, she made a point of bringing along both of her surviving "brothers."

Like Dr. Manhattan, Sansa could have done so much more.

[Springwatch]

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's not that she's a quiet wolf and isn't out for bloody vengeance. Ned, Jon, Bran, are all quiet wolves and even they don't submit as readily as Sansa did.

Sansa speaks up for her father in the face of the Small Council, and Joff's court of justice. This is isn't submission, it's an attempt at soft power - she was trying to be Ned's advocate, his diplomat, his peace broker. Big boots for a little girl who only wanted to be a pink princess up till now. She did ok. She did well actually.

Bran submitted much more readily than Sansa did. He said something like, You can't do that!, and Theon said actually, he could.  After that, following Luwin's advice, Bran not only submitted himself, but all of Winterfell and its people. "I have yielded Winterfell to Prince Theon. All of you should do as he commands you."

Submitting in the face of overwhelming force is a sign of sanity, as you sort of say. Starks have done it going back to the first Lord of Winterfell, the one who knelt.

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's that Sansa placed her own needs above those of her house, unlike most of her siblings (Rickon is too young for comparison). This is not a bad thing, however, since it was the only way she could have survived her particular situation. So in this way, it was not her weakness but her strength.

Bran could have chosen death before becoming Theon's pawn. As it turned out, Winterfell is better served by Bran alive. Same with Sansa. I don't think we really disagree much on this one.

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And the Hound didn't teach her to be a good girl. He just merely pointed out what she was already doing.

No! Joff is a sick mind; he wants to hurt Sansa, but he also wants her love. This is not an easy thing for a newcomer like Sansa to understand; so Sandor's advice is important. She can save herself some pain by manipulating Joffrey, not fighting him.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

*Sansa speaks up for her father in the face of the Small Council, and Joff's court of justice. This is isn't submission, it's an attempt at soft power - she was trying to be Ned's advocate, his diplomat, his peace broker. Big boots for a little girl who only wanted to be a pink princess up till now. She did ok. She did well actually.

**Bran submitted much more readily than Sansa did. 

*Sansa also had it in her mind that Ned would just be exiled for a couple years and after she was wed and married to Joffrey she could convince Joffrey to let Ned come back.  this is all stemming from her ignorance of the situation. She willfully writes the letters to her family in response to this because she intends to please the queen.  she did terrible. why? because she failed, she was played for the fool that she was and used to Cercie's advantage.  

**The difference is that Sansa was ignorant of her situation while Bran was not. Bran's people were held at swordpoint while Sansa was an unwitting but willing participant. 

[Elegant Woes]

@Thunder Bunny-3000 So that's what we gonna call Sansa's plan to keep war from breaking out? Willful and ignorant? Yes how awful of her of not wanting her family members and soldiers to die. Also Sansa's plan to keep Ned safe worked. While Cersei had motives of her own she didn't want Ned to die and Sansa pleading on his behalf gave her the excuse she needed not to kill him. 

Quote

A thousand voices were screaming, but Arya never heard them. Prince Joffrey … no, King Joffrey … stepped out from behind the shields of his Kingsguard. "My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father." (AGOT, Arya V).

It's not Sansa's fault that Joffrey was sadistic enough to call for her father's head. You are blaming her for rather ridiculous things. 

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

12 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Thunder Bunny-3000 So that's what we gonna call Sansa's plan to keep war from breaking out? Willful and ignorant? Yes how awful of her of not wanting her family members and soldiers to die. Also Sansa's plan to keep Ned safe worked. While Cersei had motives of her own she didn't want Ned to die and Sansa pleading on his behalf gave her the excuse she needed not to kill him. 

It's not Sansa's fault that Joffrey was sadistic enough to call for her father's head. You are blaming her for rather ridiculous things. 

Sansa was not trying to prevent a war. she was willful in her actions and ignorant of the situation. her only concern was her social status. Sansa's plan did not work because it wasn't her influence that kept ned alive. Her plan relied on Joffery conforming to her intentions and it failed.

While Ned was rotting in the black Cells as a prisoner, it was the threat to Sansa's life that made Ned confess, not Sansa's pleas for mercy. they never intended to kill him and saying that Sansa convinced the queen to keep him alive is ridiculous. she was Cercie's pawn in that whole scenario. and her selfish nature is all I really blamed her for. it caused a ruckus and got her captured.  as for the beheading. that blame goes to Joffery. 

[HoodedCrow]

Sansa was an age typical girl who screwed up big time, partly because her education was about embroidery. Her mother, Ned, and her Septa Didn’t teach her to resist or about RealPolitic. Not wanting the Cute heir that she was going to marry Was not in her vocabulary. Lying was. The Hound tried to tell her realism in a poor way. Cersei, her soon to be mother in law, charmed her with superficial beauty and attention ( like the White witch in narnia), but Trump charms some people too. It’s not straightforward.