Sansa's concepts on Sisters: Margaery vs. Arya

[Springwatch]

On 9/12/2020 at 5:30 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

*Sansa also had it in her mind that Ned would just be exiled for a couple years and after she was wed and married to Joffrey she could convince Joffrey to let Ned come back.  this is all stemming from her ignorance of the situation. She willfully writes the letters to her family in response to this because she intends to please the queen.  she did terrible. why? because she failed, she was played for the fool that she was and used to Cercie's advantage.  

Do you really think that failure is to be avoided at all costs, that nothing should be even tried without 100% certainty that it will work? I'm not going to blame Sansa for trying to save Ned's life and failing. Trying is a good thing in itself.

And remember, Joff wanted Ned flayed. This is the boy king who routinely chopped off hands and put out eyes in his court of justice. Cersei is nominally regent, but people jump to obey Joff without consulting Cersei. Ned could lost a bit of skin before execution. Or more than a bit.

And what terrible thing happened from the letters? Her brothers were hurt and confused for a short while? Well boo hoo boys; it's the game of thrones, you're going to see much worse than that. Anyway Cat provided the essential context: Cersei controlled the content of those letters.

You say Sansa was a Lannister pawn, but it seems to me so far they have cashed in only once - with Ned's submission. And honestly what did you expect Sansa to do to prevent that? Kill herself on the off-chance?

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**The difference is that Sansa was ignorant of her situation while Bran was not. Bran's people were held at swordpoint while Sansa was an unwitting but willing participant. 

It's a bit unclear what you mean. If you're saying Bran was facing a clear threat, and Sansa wasn't - I disagree. The penalty for high treason is death. Almost everyone in the Tower of the Hand has already died for high treason. Couldn't be clearer than that. Ned's life needs saving, and Sansa has only one card to play - the Lannisters claim to love her and want her to be Joffrey's bride and queen. She played that card. Good.

I don't mean any criticism of Bran - I like the character, and he acted well and bravely. But just imagine if the situations reversed and Sansa had done what he did. Her anti-fans on this forum would rip her to shreds; her character would be crucified. She hid in the crypts and then ran away, leaving her people to the devastation of Theon's coup and it's aftermath. All the men murdered, all the women taken to the Dreadfort and possibly (probably) tortured for Ramsay's sport. No resistance or escape attempted, because Sansa commanded them not to. Mega-villain or what?

The main difference between Bran and Sansa is our pre-judgement of their actions.

[John Suburbs]

On 9/12/2020 at 6:56 AM, Springwatch said:

Sansa speaks up for her father in the face of the Small Council, and Joff's court of justice. This is isn't submission, it's an attempt at soft power - she was trying to be Ned's advocate, his diplomat, his peace broker. Big boots for a little girl who only wanted to be a pink princess up till now. She did ok. She did well actually.

Bran submitted much more readily than Sansa did. He said something like, You can't do that!, and Theon said actually, he could.  After that, following Luwin's advice, Bran not only submitted himself, but all of Winterfell and its people. "I have yielded Winterfell to Prince Theon. All of you should do as he commands you."

Submitting in the face of overwhelming force is a sign of sanity, as you sort of say. Starks have done it going back to the first Lord of Winterfell, the one who knelt.

Bran could have chosen death before becoming Theon's pawn. As it turned out, Winterfell is better served by Bran alive. Same with Sansa. I don't think we really disagree much on this one.

No! Joff is a sick mind; he wants to hurt Sansa, but he also wants her love. This is not an easy thing for a newcomer like Sansa to understand; so Sandor's advice is important. She can save herself some pain by manipulating Joffrey, not fighting him.

Aahh, but Bran did what he did in order to protect his people, not himself. Ultimately, Bran defied his captor at great risk to himself and spent weeks in the dank, dark crypts surrounded by dead bodies. Very doubtful if Sans would do that.

Also, Sansa pleading for mercy for her father was not defiance, it was submission. Yes, she did well, but it was not something that the Lannisters opposed. In fact, it was with their acquiescence because that plan at that point was for Joffrey to spare Ned and have him take the black. So like most things in court, this was all a show.

But again, I'm not criticizing Sansa for any of this. She played her entire KL experience mostly right, especially once it turned out that she was apparently the last Stark.

I don't get any sense that Joff wanted Sansa's love. He wants her obedience, prompted by fear. And "giving Joffrey what he wants" is not manipulating him, and even at this she fails by constantly correcting him, mocking him and telling him "no, you can't."

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Do you really think that failure is to be avoided at all costs, that nothing should be even tried without 100% certainty that it will work? I'm not going to blame Sansa for trying to save Ned's life and failing. Trying is a good thing in itself.

And remember, Joff wanted Ned flayed. This is the boy king who routinely chopped off hands and put out eyes in his court of justice. Cersei is nominally regent, but people jump to obey Joff without consulting Cersei. Ned could lost a bit of skin before execution. Or more than a bit.

And what terrible thing happened from the letters? Her brothers were hurt and confused for a short while? Well boo hoo boys; it's the game of thrones, you're going to see much worse than that. Anyway Cat provided the essential context: Cersei controlled the content of those letters.

You say Sansa was a Lannister pawn, but it seems to me so far they have cashed in only once - with Ned's submission. And honestly what did you expect Sansa to do to prevent that? Kill herself on the off-chance?

It's a bit unclear what you mean. If you're saying Bran was facing a clear threat, and Sansa wasn't - I disagree. The penalty for high treason is death. Almost everyone in the Tower of the Hand has already died for high treason. Couldn't be clearer than that. Ned's life needs saving, and Sansa has only one card to play - the Lannisters claim to love her and want her to be Joffrey's bride and queen. She played that card. Good.

I don't mean any criticism of Bran - I like the character, and he acted well and bravely. But just imagine if the situations reversed and Sansa had done what he did. Her anti-fans on this forum would rip her to shreds; her character would be crucified. She hid in the crypts and then ran away, leaving her people to the devastation of Theon's coup and it's aftermath. All the men murdered, all the women taken to the Dreadfort and possibly (probably) tortured for Ramsay's sport. No resistance or escape attempted, because Sansa commanded them not to. Mega-villain or what?

The main difference between Bran and Sansa is our pre-judgement of their actions.

 

Sansa was responsible for her own capture. had she remained obedient she may have escaped and no one could force Ned to confess. the chief reason of course is to save Sansa's life whether that was an empty threat or not. 

nice bringing up Joffrey. Sansa was infatuated with the little barbarian. she was extremely ignorant. so what. losing a little skin is better than losing the only head you have.  problem is, we as readers know of joffery's nature, sansa has had a glimpse.  Sansa's intentions relied on a cruel individual that she believes is her prince chawming.

the decision for Sansa to write the letters was an effort to please Cercie. this act alone is further showing her ignorance as she still foolishly believes she has influence. she doesn't she is being used. she is disowning her family in the process by outing them all as traitors. point is Sansa was not beaten into submission here this was her choice.  boo hoo. she lost the game of thrones- and lived..... mayhaps she was never a player but a pawn.

Yes Sansa was a Lannister pawn. she is used to coerce Ned into a confession. she slanders her family.  her person is valuable at the start of the war in a potential prisoner exchange for Jaimie. yes with Ned's death that goes out the window. her claim is valuable to the Lannisters and they seize that opportunity befor the Tyrells could. 

Again Sansa was a valuable hostage and the first taken captive before the rest of the Stark household was slaughtered. yes high treason holds the penalty of death. Cercie deserves that as she is certainty guilty of it. everyone dies after her capture. Yep she threw her family under the bus for her selfish desires.

eh I don't think it would be seen negatively. Bran surrendered and told the people tp surrender in an effort to keep them alive. this contrasts with Sansa's behavior where she calls her betrays her family and calls them traitors. had it been Sansa doing exactly as Bran, she would be seen like Bran. 

on another note, Sansa being an ignoramus isn't a bad thing. we see her start out as an entitled snot, if she ever grows and makes a comeback, it's more rewarding character growth. if sansa could be exonerated for her stupidity I guess Joffrey should be for his cruelty. 

the main difference is their motivations and actions, not our pre-judgements of their actions. - we judge them after they have done something or lack of. 

[Springwatch]

On 9/14/2020 at 4:18 PM, John Suburbs said:

Aahh, but Bran did what he did in order to protect his people, not himself.

Sansa was talking about Ned and thinking about Ned before she wrote those letters. She was thinking about the punishment for treason, and how to mitigate that. So I have to believe Ned was a prime motive in what she did.

On 9/14/2020 at 4:18 PM, John Suburbs said:

Ultimately, Bran defied his captor at great risk to himself and spent weeks in the dank, dark crypts surrounded by dead bodies. Very doubtful if Sans would do that.

Gods, yes, she'd hate every minute. She could do it though - she's a scaredy-cat, but she's a high-functioning scaredy-cat. She has to be, because like the Hound says, just about everything scares her.

On 9/14/2020 at 4:18 PM, John Suburbs said:

Also, Sansa pleading for mercy for her father was not defiance, it was submission. Yes, she did well, but it was not something that the Lannisters opposed. In fact, it was with their acquiescence because that plan at that point was for Joffrey to spare Ned and have him take the black. So like most things in court, this was all a show.

You call it submission, I call it defiance - it doesn't matter; we know what she did. I call it defiance because Cersei and the Small Council were hostile when she tried to talk about Ned.

'The Plan' - I keep hearing this, but it's not really 'the' Plan is it? Because there's a king, and he has an entirely different plan, which is Ned dead, and preferably flayed.  It would be more realistic to say 'the Plan' is Joffrey's, and the rest is just what people thought would happen. Sansa has no idea of any of this, of course.

On 9/14/2020 at 4:18 PM, John Suburbs said:

But again, I'm not criticizing Sansa for any of this. She played her entire KL experience mostly right, especially once it turned out that she was apparently the last Stark.

I don't get any sense that Joff wanted Sansa's love. He wants her obedience, prompted by fear.

Joff's state of mind is complicated; I don't know how realistic he is. Multiple characters testify he is possessive of Sansa. I think he has an unhealthy obsession with Sansa; maybe he calls it love, I don't know. Anyway, I was thinking of this: "He wants you to smile and smell sweet and be his lady love," the Hound rasped. "He wants to hear you recite all your pretty little words the way the septa taught you. He wants you to love him ... and fear him."

On 9/14/2020 at 4:18 PM, John Suburbs said:

And "giving Joffrey what he wants" is not manipulating him, and even at this she fails by constantly correcting him, mocking him and telling him "no, you can't."

She does slip a lot, but yes, she successfully positions herself as Joff's lady love, and from that position she can influence him - a bit. Dontos. The woman with the dead baby. We don't know, but maybe she saved herself some beatings too - in the middle of that period, she thinks if she dresses right she might be ok. It's not fair and not right that Joff gets to be flattered like this, but it's sort of like a hostage situation - first priority is to get through this; worry about justice later.

[Springwatch]

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Sansa was responsible for her own capture. had she remained obedient she may have escaped

Nope. There was a thread about this a while back, and we argued though to the very atoms. Sansa had no opportunity to escape.

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

and no one could force Ned to confess. the chief reason of course is to save Sansa's life whether that was an empty threat or not. 

How could she tell him she'd escaped? How would he know?

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

nice bringing up Joffrey. Sansa was infatuated with the little barbarian. she was extremely ignorant. so what. losing a little skin is better than losing the only head you have.  problem is, we as readers know of joffery's nature, sansa has had a glimpse.  Sansa's intentions relied on a cruel individual that she believes is her prince chawming.

Oh I agree mostly. Joff was beyond anything she could imagine. He wanted to torture Ned and kill him, by the way.

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

the decision for Sansa to write the letters was an effort to please Cercie. this act alone is further showing her ignorance as she still foolishly believes she has influence. she doesn't she is being used. she is disowning her family in the process by outing them all as traitors. point is Sansa was not beaten into submission here this was her choice.  boo hoo. she lost the game of thrones- and lived..... mayhaps she was never a player but a pawn.

She was thinking of how to save Ned.

The letters described Ned as a traitor - which he was: a traitor to King Joffrey, proved by his letter to Stannis. That's how it is until Joffrey is discredited. Sansa's family were not called traitors - they were called to the coronation to swear loyalty.

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Yes Sansa was a Lannister pawn. she is used to coerce Ned into a confession. she slanders her family.  her person is valuable at the start of the war in a potential prisoner exchange for Jaimie. yes with Ned's death that goes out the window. her claim is valuable to the Lannisters and they seize that opportunity befor the Tyrells could. 

Think about this: Arya escaped all the way to Braavos, and she was still a Lannister pawn - they used her claim to cement the Bolton claim to Winterfell.

So not much point in Sansa committing suicide anyway. Even if that wasn't a completely mad idea in the first place.

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Again Sansa was a valuable hostage and the first taken captive before the rest of the Stark household was slaughtered. yes high treason holds the penalty of death. Cercie deserves that as she is certainty guilty of it. everyone dies after her capture. Yep she threw her family under the bus for her selfish desires.

Oh the bus, that bus, that immortal zombie bus that keeps coming round and round and round.

There was no bus. That other thread looked at every dot and comma of Cersei's coup. Nothing Sansa said or did made any difference. There was no room, no opportunity in that timeframe, that scenario.

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

eh I don't think it would be seen negatively. Bran surrendered and told the people tp surrender in an effort to keep them alive. this contrasts with Sansa's behavior where she calls her betrays her family and calls them traitors. had it been Sansa doing exactly as Bran, she would be seen like Bran. 

We can dream.

19 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

on another note, Sansa being an ignoramus isn't a bad thing. we see her start out as an entitled snot, if she ever grows and makes a comeback, it's more rewarding character growth. if sansa could be exonerated for her stupidity I guess Joffrey should be for his cruelty. 

the main difference is their motivations and actions, not our pre-judgements of their actions. - we judge them after they have done something or lack of. 

Joff was a sadist, Sansa was a naughty child - they're not remotely the same. She does have a lot of room for growth, that's true.

Ideally we wouldn't misjudge characters, but I think Sansa's early story was designed to make her look worse than she actually is. It's like the author's idea of a puzzle game; so we can look back, and cross-check bits of evidence, and make new conclusions. He maybe underestimated the power of first impressions though.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Nope. There was a thread about this a while back, and we argued though to the very atoms. Sansa had no opportunity to escape.

Sansa becomes a prisoner when she goes to the queen. the opportunity to escape was on the boat as planned. she blows that  out of the water  by informing the Queen  of their immediate departure. the willful act of sneaking off to the Queen is Sansa's fault. hense her own capture is her fault too. 

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Oh the bus, that bus, that immortal zombie bus that keeps coming round and round and round.

There was no bus. That other thread looked at every dot and comma of Cersei's coup. Nothing Sansa said or did made any difference. There was no room, no opportunity in that timeframe, that scenario.

are you saying she was not a valuable hostage? that she wasn't the first hostage?

read through Cercie's chapters  in all the books she reflects from time to time of Sansa's contributions to her coup. and even stating at some point that Sansa was always going to be a prisoner in KL even if Robb swore fealty to Joffery

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

She was thinking of how to save Ned.

The letters described Ned as a traitor - which he was: a traitor to King Joffrey, proved by his letter to Stannis. That's how it is until Joffrey is discredited. Sansa's family were not called traitors - they were called to the coronation to swear loyalty.

 yes she was thinking of Ned but also thinking of herself. describing Ned as a traitor in her handwriting is her consenting to that idea. she also immediately declares that Arya is the one with traitors blood.  so yea she calls her family traitors.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Think about this: Arya escaped all the way to Braavos, and she was still a Lannister pawn - they used her claim to cement the Bolton claim to Winterfell.

Arya herself is not a pawn of the Lannisters. Jeyne Poole is.  

 

[Springwatch]

On 9/16/2020 at 1:45 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Sansa becomes a prisoner when she goes to the queen. the opportunity to escape was on the boat as planned. she blows that  out of the water  by informing the Queen  of their immediate departure. the willful act of sneaking off to the Queen is Sansa's fault. hense her own capture is her fault too. 

No.

1. The coup was in the morning, the ship would not leave until the evening.
2. Leaving early not a possibility - the first anyone knew of trouble was when the red cloaks stormed the Tower of the Hand.

If Sansa had not gone out, she would have been captured exactly the way Jeyne was.

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are you saying she was not a valuable hostage? that she wasn't the first hostage?

I'm saying nothing Sansa said or did had any effect on the success of Cersei's coup, on the fall of Ned, or the failure to leave on the Wind Witch.

Sure the girls are valuable as hostages. This is shown by the fact that Cersei sent the Hound and a KG with the red cloaks to the Tower of the Hand, even though Ned's defenders were a poor lot by this stage. Cersei meant to get those girls. Arya got away, but it was a million to one shot. Sansa would have had no chance.

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read through Cercie's chapters  in all the books she reflects from time to time of Sansa's contributions to her coup. and even stating at some point that Sansa was always going to be a prisoner in KL even if Robb swore fealty to Joffery

When your argument depends on the testimony of Cersei, you know you've lost. She lies even to herself.

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 yes she was thinking of Ned but also thinking of herself.

As in, when I'm queen, I will make Joff pardon Ned? That doesn't sound selfish to me.

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describing Ned as a traitor in her handwriting is her consenting to that idea. she also immediately declares that Arya is the one with traitors blood.

A good point. Saying Arya has traitor blood was incredibly unwise. I can see where she's coming from - Arya would betray Joff in a heartbeat. Also, like Sansa, Arya has not actually done any treason. The penalty for merely having traitor blood is not getting to marry Joff.

(ETA: and Ned is a traitor. They got his letter. How many times do I have to say it?)

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  so yea she calls her family traitors.

I'm not going to count anything from Clash, when Sansa is being beaten up. Her thoughts are very different.

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Arya herself is not a pawn of the Lannisters. Jeyne Poole is. 

I'm saying Arya is a victim of identity theft - her name, her claim, were used against her. The Lannisters can do the damage without her consent. So don't suppose the Lannisters would have been helpless if Sansa had chosen to spend her time spitting defiance from a prison cell.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

No.

1. The coup was in the morning, the ship would not leave until the evening.
2. Leaving early not a possibility - the first anyone knew of trouble was when the red cloaks stormed the Tower of the Hand.

If Sansa had not gone out, she would have been captured exactly the way Jeyne was.

 

 Ned wanted them ready to leave by noon.

the coup was likely mis to late morning. Ned has breakfast where sansa runs off, then Ned is confronted by Pycelle an hour or so later about Roberts death and then Ned calls for the councillers to meet him in his solar. after that they all go to the throne room to confront Joffrey.- that takes time. 

Sansa was the first prisoner of the coup. and she wasn't in the tower of the hand Jeyne and Arya were. Sansa was locked away in Maegors holdfast. she was escorted to the tower and locked away and a few hours later the fighting started.  

you are right, leaving wasn't a possibility because Sansa blew it. 

 

“It was for love,” Sansa said in a rush. “Father wouldn’t even give me leave to say
farewell.” She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that
morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never
done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn’t
loved Joffrey as much as she did. “He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry
me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn’t
listen.” The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay
in King’s Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had
always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he
would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So
she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and
thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in
Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun
outside. “Please,” she finished, “you have to let me marry Joffrey, I’ll be ever so good a
wife to him, you’ll see. I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.”

 

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm saying nothing Sansa said or did had any effect on the success of Cersei's coup, on the fall of Ned, or the failure to leave on the Wind Witch.

Sure the girls are valuable as hostages. This is shown by the fact that Cersei sent the Hound and a KG with the red cloaks to the Tower of the Hand, even though Ned's defenders were a poor lot by this stage. Cersei meant to get those girls. Arya got away, but it was a million to one shot. Sansa would have had no chance.

the knowledge of their imminent departure is the most valuable piece of information that Cercie could use. Sansa got what she wanted and remained in Kingslanding after sneaking off to the Queen.  and yes I already stated they were valuable hostages. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

As in, when I'm queen, I will make Joff pardon Ned? That doesn't sound selfish to me.

 her motivations on tattling on her own father was selfish in nature.  becoming joffery's Queen is selfish in nature. remaining in King's landing is selfish in nature. sure i'll give you this thought wasn't necessarily selfish but it is definitely motivated by her selfish desires. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

(ETA: and Ned is a traitor. They got his letter. How many times do I have to say it?)

it depends on the view. We know Ned is not a traitor. but after he confesses he makes himself out to be a traitor with his own words. 

also traitors are executed, sent to the wall, or pardoned. traitors blood was just nonsense to scare Sansa. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm not going to count anything from Clash, when Sansa is being beaten up. Her thoughts are very different

ok. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm saying Arya is a victim of identity theft - her name, her claim, were used against her. The Lannisters can do the damage without her consent. So don't suppose the Lannisters would have been helpless if Sansa had chosen to spend her time spitting defiance from a prison cell.

except sansa was betrothed to Joffery. decorum must be held to maintain a sense of innocence in the coup. she is a noble hostage and is treated according to her rank. she has freedom of the castle and has escorts guarding her at times and servants to meet her necessities. the castle is her prison. again she would not be in a prison cell especially after Ned's death and Jamie captured. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

When your argument depends on the testimony of Cersei, you know you've lost. She lies even to herself.

and No.

Cercie feeling giddy with excitement when things go her way is a sign of truth. I think it was in AFFC where she's thinks to herself that she hasn't felt this giddy or elated  since Sansa bore her father's secrets to her.   -she is an idiot regardless.

[Elegant Woes]

On 9/14/2020 at 5:18 PM, John Suburbs said:

Aahh, but Bran did what he did in order to protect his people, not himself. Ultimately, Bran defied his captor at great risk to himself and spent weeks in the dank, dark crypts surrounded by dead bodies. Very doubtful if Sans would do that.

Also, Sansa pleading for mercy for her father was not defiance, it was submission. Yes, she did well, but it was not something that the Lannisters opposed. In fact, it was with their acquiescence because that plan at that point was for Joffrey to spare Ned and have him take the black. So like most things in court, this was all a show.

But again, I'm not criticizing Sansa for any of this. She played her entire KL experience mostly right, especially once it turned out that she was apparently the last Stark.

I don't get any sense that Joff wanted Sansa's love. He wants her obedience, prompted by fear. And "giving Joffrey what he wants" is not manipulating him, and even at this she fails by constantly correcting him, mocking him and telling him "no, you can't."

And you think what? Sansa went to plead for Ned's behalf just for herself? If Sansa was truly submissive she would have kept her mouth shut and done nothing. Instead she went out of her way to risk her own life and reputation by sympathizing and defending a traitor like Ned. And you know that this is an act of defiance because in her fourth AGOT chapter Sansa really doesn't like disappointing Cersei like the good child she is, but in her fifth chapter she does that, she disappoints Cersei, but at this point Sansa doesn't care. Her father is just more important to her. 

[John Suburbs]

6 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

And you think what? Sansa went to plead for Ned's behalf just for herself? If Sansa was truly submissive she would have kept her mouth shut and done nothing. Instead she went out of her way to risk her own life and reputation by sympathizing and defending a traitor like Ned. And you know that this is an act of defiance because in her fourth AGOT chapter Sansa really doesn't like disappointing Cersei like the good child she is, but in her fifth chapter she does that, she disappoints Cersei, but at this point Sansa doesn't care. Her father is just more important to her. 

Um, in what way is she risking her life? She is not denying that Ned committed treason, nor is she defying the crown in any way. She is just asking for mercy and trying to come up with extenuating circumstances (somebody lied to him, milk of the poppy). And remember that she still thinks Joffrey loves her, so in her mind she is not taking any risk at all.

I'm not saying that Sansa does not care about her family. Of course she is going to plead for Ned. Her actions are driven more by self-preservation than the needs of her house and family, though -- moreso than her siblings.

And I'm not sure what her disappointment to Cersie you're referring to. When she asks to speak to Ned? She hardly meant that as an act of defiance. She just didn't know any better. Her plea for mercy before the court, of course, was exactly what Cersei wanted.

[Springwatch]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:05 PM, John Suburbs said:

Her plea for mercy before the court, of course, was exactly what Cersei wanted.

Yeah, but as Cersei is plotting this time to save Ned's life, I'm not going to waste any tears on that one.

(I'm sure Cersei is/was in love with Ned.)

[Springwatch]

On 9/19/2020 at 6:23 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Ned wanted them ready to leave by noon.

the coup was likely mis to late morning. Ned has breakfast where sansa runs off, then Ned is confronted by Pycelle an hour or so later about Roberts death and then Ned calls for the councillers to meet him in his solar. after that they all go to the throne room to confront Joffrey.- that takes time. 

Sansa was the first prisoner of the coup. and she wasn't in the tower of the hand Jeyne and Arya were. Sansa was locked away in Maegors holdfast. she was escorted to the tower and locked away and a few hours later the fighting started.  

you are right, leaving wasn't a possibility because Sansa blew it. 

I've done a loose timetable that works (if there's any improvements to be made, I'm sure someone will point them out). These are the latest possible timings; it could all be done an hour or two earlier.

09:00       Stark breakfast
09:30       Sansa speaks to Cersei; Sansa locked up (~2 hours before attack on TotH)
10:00       Pycelle to Ned (1 hour after breakfast)
10:30       Small Council in Ned's solar; summons to throne room
11:00       Fall of Ned
11:30       Attack on Tower of the Hand (end of Arya's lesson in time to bathe and change before midday)

The attack on the Tower falls exactly when you'd expect - after the coup (so as not to alert Ned), but soon enough that the defenders don't hear about it and barricade themselves in, or break out and storm the castle gates or something.

And again: Cersei doesn't want to wait; she's not a patient woman: she wants those valuable hostages. She wants Ned's loyalists dead.

And again: Cersei has 100 red cloaks, but only 20 were in the throne room. The other 80 were deployed somewhere else obviously - and obviously their mission today was the Tower of the Hand. They were ready. There is absolutely no reason for any delay.

These facts show the attack on the Tower happened at its natural time. You don't need a series of incredible events to make it happen - as you would, if you want to blame Sansa.

On 9/19/2020 at 6:23 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

the knowledge of their imminent departure is the most valuable piece of information that Cercie could use. Sansa got what she wanted and remained in Kingslanding after sneaking off to the Queen.  and yes I already stated they were valuable hostages. 

What's imminent is the death of the King (any moment), and Ned Stark as regent - which is the one thing Cersei has to prevent at all costs, if she doesn't want Joffrey exposed as a bastard and left to the mercy of King Stannis. (Aside: Ned doesn't kill children, but his friends certainly do.)

Th Wind Witch is a minor event in comparison, happening long after the main action. If it was news to Cersei at all (the Red Keep is full of spies), it would be a reassurance. The girls aren't leaving until the evening. Ned won't move against her until they're gone (and in fact this is true - Ned planned to make himself regent, but wait before deposing Joffrey).

On 9/19/2020 at 6:23 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

 her motivations on tattling on her own father was selfish in nature.  becoming joffery's Queen is selfish in nature. remaining in King's landing is selfish in nature. sure i'll give you this thought wasn't necessarily selfish but it is definitely motivated by her selfish desires. 

Ned promised Sansa to Joff, but at the end of the day, he was only involved in the betrothal, she was committed. So it might seem to her that the betrothal is more her business than his - it's her life, after all. And breaking a solemn promise is bad, right?

On 9/19/2020 at 6:23 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

it depends on the view. We know Ned is not a traitor. but after he confesses he makes himself out to be a traitor with his own words. 

also traitors are executed, sent to the wall, or pardoned. traitors blood was just nonsense to scare Sansa.

Agree, but while Joff is the official king, Ned is the official traitor.

On 9/19/2020 at 6:23 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

except sansa was betrothed to Joffery. decorum must be held to maintain a sense of innocence in the coup. she is a noble hostage and is treated according to her rank. she has freedom of the castle and has escorts guarding her at times and servants to meet her necessities. the castle is her prison. again she would not be in a prison cell especially after Ned's death and Jamie captured. 

Yeah, the castle is a prison, but to walk freely about it, she has to toe the Lannister party line. And she has to look convincingly harmless (which she does). Being a rebel in court is not an option.

On 9/19/2020 at 6:23 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

and No.

Cercie feeling giddy with excitement when things go her way is a sign of truth. I think it was in AFFC where she's thinks to herself that she hasn't felt this giddy or elated  since Sansa bore her father's secrets to her.   -she is an idiot regardless.

Cersei's memory starts out precise and becomes more fuzzy over time.

The original is: "Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"

This is accurate because she is speaking to Sansa herself; and it's within a few days of the event.

In AFFC, she misses out the 'send you away' bit: No one had give Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard's plans.

The probable truth: Sansa knows almost nothing. Ned made his plans in the middle of the night; and he is not going to share them with Sansa. He always wants Sansa kept away from serious game of thones type business (e.g. justice for gregor). He never confides in her. Certainly not at the last family breakfast, when he was under pressure as never before, and she was in a furious sulk. All she had to know was the arrangements to send her home.

If you ask me, Cersei is whitewashing her own scheming, spying, guilty role in the coup - offloading some of the guilt on Sansa.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I've done a loose timetable that works (if there's any improvements to be made, I'm sure someone will point them out). These are the latest possible timings; it could all be done an hour or two earlier.

09:00       Stark breakfast
09:30       Sansa speaks to Cersei; Sansa locked up (~2 hours before attack on TotH)
10:00       Pycelle to Ned (1 hour after breakfast)
10:30       Small Council in Ned's solar; summons to throne room
11:00       Fall of Ned
11:30       Attack on Tower of the Hand (end of Arya's lesson in time to bathe and change before midday)

The attack on the Tower falls exactly when you'd expect - after the coup (so as not to alert Ned), but soon enough that the defenders don't hear about it and barricade themselves in, or break out and storm the castle gates or something.

And again: Cersei doesn't want to wait; she's not a patient woman: she wants those valuable hostages. She wants Ned's loyalists dead.

And again: Cersei has 100 red cloaks, but only 20 were in the throne room. The other 80 were deployed somewhere else obviously - and obviously their mission today was the Tower of the Hand. They were ready. There is absolutely no reason for any delay.

These facts show the attack on the Tower happened at its natural time. You don't need a series of incredible events to make it happen - as you would, if you want to blame Sansa.

the times are just your guess.  and no it is still sansa's fault for getting captured. the only incredible event that occurs is Sansa sneaking off to the Queen. 

 

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What's imminent is the death of the King (any moment), and Ned Stark as regent - which is the one thing Cersei has to prevent at all costs, if she doesn't want Joffrey exposed as a bastard and left to the mercy of King Stannis. (Aside: Ned doesn't kill children, but his friends certainly do.)

Th Wind Witch is a minor event in comparison, happening long after the main action. If it was news to Cersei at all (the Red Keep is full of spies), it would be a reassurance. The girls aren't leaving until the evening. Ned won't move against her until they're gone (and in fact this is true - Ned planned to make himself regent, but wait before deposing Joffrey).

despite your timeline. the critical maneuver was preventing Ned and co. from leaving by ship. priority is the ship. Cercie didn't know Ned would stay, so cutting off his potential escape make sense. that was Sansa's goal was to stay in KL. so subverting that Ned is stuck just like the rest. the Wind Witch is pivotal in her plans. 

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ned promised Sansa to Joff, but at the end of the day, he was only involved in the betrothal, she was committed. So it might seem to her that the betrothal is more her business than his - it's her life, after all. And breaking a solemn promise is bad, right?

doesn't matter. betrothals are not permanent. it isn't a hardened commitment that the eventual final outcome would be if followed to completion. her life isn't hers to give anyway, it is her lord father's.he is the hand of the King First, then Lord of Winterfell, then her father. he broke it off abruptly, there is nothing wrong with that.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Agree, but while Joff is the official king, Ned is the official traitor.

that is the conflict, he is not the rightful heir. without it. there would be no book I suppose. Ned was not a traitor, hence the War of the 5 Kings.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Yeah, the castle is a prison, but to walk freely about it, she has to toe the Lannister party line. And she has to look convincingly harmless (which she does). Being a rebel in court is not an option.

no she doesn't have to look convincingly harmless because that is just what she was. that was her character. nothing wrong with that either. being a rebel in court is an option. she only chose once to do so and it was directed at the wrong Lannister. 

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei's memory starts out precise and becomes more fuzzy over time.

The original is: "Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"

This is accurate because she is speaking to Sansa herself; and it's within a few days of the event.

In AFFC, she misses out the 'send you away' bit: No one had give Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard's plans.

The probable truth: Sansa knows almost nothing. Ned made his plans in the middle of the night; and he is not going to share them with Sansa. He always wants Sansa kept away from serious game of thones type business (e.g. justice for gregor). He never confides in her. Certainly not at the last family breakfast, when he was under pressure as never before, and she was in a furious sulk. All she had to know was the arrangements to send her home.

If you ask me, Cersei is whitewashing her own scheming, spying, guilty role in the coup - offloading some of the guilt on Sansa.

 and the arrangements to send them home is precisely the reason she is captured, the retinue slaughtered at the stables, in process of leaving, the Wind Witch being taken care of, as well as the tower of the hand being assaulted. Sansa could have repeated what Ned told her; Prince Joffrey is no prince Aemon or simple he's ruining everything.  but what is consistent in the books is the plan to send her away. in Ned's pov we know he alone was prepared to stay while his daughters left by sea to deliver the message to Stannis at Dragonstone on the way North. Cercie was given information that was useful to her coup, that is certain.

the truth: NED's plan to send them back to Winterfell by sea. 

he never confides in her: um yes he does. He tells them at breakfast why they are leaving. confide means to trust,. he told the girls to tell no one of there plans to leave. why would he not confide in her, she behaves herself more often than not. 

Sansa knows almost nothing. Sansa knew a lot more than she realized and was an unwitting participant in the slaughter of her father's household. 

Cercie isn't whitewashing her own scheming. she seems pretty proud. she attributes her success to Sansa which suprises Tyrion. Cercie's  bit was the slaughter, Sansa's was the information.

plan or plans it makes no matter, she still receive valuable intel in Ned's likely next move, from sansa,  and acted upon it.   Plans could still be in reference to Ned's daughters being sent home on a ship. in AFFC, she could be lumping in the plan to sit Stannis on the throne. ie. plans 

 

 

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

the times are just your guess.  

You can push the times back and forward a bit; but the timeline is surprisingly tight - anchored by Arya's lesson finishing well before 12am, and the few hours Sansa waited in her locked room before the fighting started. If you want Sansa's conversation with Cersei to have any impact at all, it must happen well before Pycelle comes to Ned, because after that, the king is dead; things get hectic busy.

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and no it is still sansa's fault for getting captured. the only incredible event that occurs is Sansa sneaking off to the Queen. 

If she hadn't gone out, she would have been captured in the Tower of the Hand just like Jeyne was. But maybe you're saying Sansa should be ashamed of the way she was captured, aside from the fact she was captured at all?

Ned's people getting away on the Wind Witch requires a whole list of incredibles.

Sansa being allowed out of the TotH is a bit odd, now you come to mention it.

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despite your timeline. the critical maneuver was preventing Ned and co. from leaving by ship. priority is the ship.

I couldn't disagree more. The King is dead. Even if a bunch of northerners got away by sea; Cersei will fight anyone not supporting King Joffrey.

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Cercie didn't know Ned would stay, so cutting off his potential escape make sense.

Nah, Cersei would have been overjoyed if Ned had run for it. She would be undisputed regent. No fight at all.

But she can't have expected it. Who else would Robert name as regent except his Hand and best friend? And Ned has been pretty clear his honour would not allow him to tolerate Joffrey as king.

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that was Sansa's goal was to stay in KL. so subverting that Ned is stuck just like the rest. the Wind Witch is pivotal in her plans. 

Ned has to bear responsibility for his own choices. His plan was: make himself Joff's regent, summon Stannis, dump the whole problem in Stannis' lap, leave.

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doesn't matter. betrothals are not permanent. it isn't a hardened commitment that the eventual final outcome would be if followed to completion.

Arguable. Breaking a betrothal has been seen as very bad in the past (as far as I know) - the offended family could go to law for damages in some periods, plus it's nearly always going to be taken as a major insult. It's the reverse of making a successful alliance between families.

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her life isn't hers to give anyway, it is her lord father's.he is the hand of the King First, then Lord of Winterfell, then her father. he broke it off abruptly, there is nothing wrong with that.

That is the reality of this culture. Sansa is a bit young to truly understand the harshness of it. Even Robb was taken aback at the idea of trading Arya to the Freys.

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that is the conflict, he is not the rightful heir. without it. there would be no book I suppose. Ned was not a traitor, hence the War of the 5 Kings.

Agree.

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no she doesn't have to look convincingly harmless because that is just what she was. that was her character. nothing wrong with that either. being a rebel in court is an option. she only chose once to do so and it was directed at the wrong Lannister. 

Don't think so. Surrounded by spies, smacked about by Kingsguard - seems to me the Lannisters held Sansa down tight.

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 and the arrangements to send them home is precisely the reason she is captured, the retinue slaughtered at the stables, in process of leaving, the Wind Witch being taken care of, as well as the tower of the hand being assaulted. Sansa could have repeated what Ned told her; Prince Joffrey is no prince Aemon or simple he's ruining everything.  but what is consistent in the books is the plan to send her away. in Ned's pov we know he alone was prepared to stay while his daughters left by sea to deliver the message to Stannis at Dragonstone on the way North. Cercie was given information that was useful to her coup, that is certain.

the truth: NED's plan to send them back to Winterfell by sea.

Ok, we agree Sansa knew they were leaving on a ship that day; probably she knew which ship, and when. She knew Ned wasn't coming with them. None of it matters because Cersei's timetable is driven by the death of the king. If she doesn't attack quickly, Ned will be made regent.

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he never confides in her: um yes he does. He tells them at breakfast why they are leaving.

Joffrey is no Prince Aemon, and KL is a dangerous place, iirc. Doesn't give any clear idea of the threat at all. Anyway, that was previously. At the last breakfast, all he says is: "It would not be wise for you to go to Joffrey right now, Sansa. I'm sorry."

Clearly he hasn't told Sansa that the threat comes directly from Cersei and Joff themselves.

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confide means to trust,. he told the girls to tell no one of there plans to leave. why would he not confide in her, she behaves herself more often than not. 

He tells her only what he absolutely has to. Travel plans, yes; game of thrones, no.

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Sansa knows almost nothing. Sansa knew a lot more than she realized and was an unwitting participant in the slaughter of her father's household. 

She knows nothing! She doesn't even know the king is dying. (The only reason she went to Cersei was because Robert scared her.) That's how much Ned confides in her.

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Cercie isn't whitewashing her own scheming. she seems pretty proud. she attributes her success to Sansa which suprises Tyrion. Cercie's  bit was the slaughter, Sansa's was the information.

Tyrion was right to be surprised. Truth is Cersei does not like being called out on the twincest, so does not want to share that conversation she had with Ned. Tyrion would not be kind. So she pretends she got her information from Sansa, not Ned.

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plan or plans it makes no matter, she still receive valuable intel in Ned's likely next move, from sansa,  and acted upon it.   Plans could still be in reference to Ned's daughters being sent home on a ship. in AFFC, she could be lumping in the plan to sit Stannis on the throne. ie. plans

Cersei already knows about Stannis, and Ned prefers to keep Sansa ignorant and innocent, as shown by his anger at seeing her in court that time. Sansa can't know about Stannis, because she is unaware that Joff is illegitimate. I might be wrong, but I think she never does find out.

[John Suburbs]

On 9/26/2020 at 5:54 AM, Springwatch said:

Yeah, but as Cersei is plotting this time to save Ned's life, I'm not going to waste any tears on that one.

(I'm sure Cersei is/was in love with Ned.)

Nor should you. But it does point up the fact that this was Sansa submitting to Lannister plotting, even if she is doing so unwittingly.

I would love to see some evidence pointing to Cersei being in love with Ned, or anybody for that matter.

[Angel Eyes]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:38 AM, John Suburbs said:

 

I would love to see some evidence pointing to Cersei being in love with Ned, or anybody for that matter.

Aside from... herself?

[Springwatch]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Aside from... herself?

Yes! She loves Joff, and Tommen, and Jaime - she just hasn't worked out that you're supposed to be kind to the people you love.

[Springwatch]

On 9/28/2020 at 4:38 PM, John Suburbs said:

Nor should you. But it does point up the fact that this was Sansa submitting to Lannister plotting, even if she is doing so unwittingly.

Submitting and/or unwitting - everyone starts out as a pawn in the got.

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I would love to see some evidence pointing to Cersei being in love with Ned, or anybody for that matter.

 

I used up all my evidence energy on Sansa. For Cersei, I think adding 2 and 2 to make 5 will do nicely.

It's this:

[Cersei, to Robert] "[...] The king I'd thought to wed would have laid a wolfskin across my bed before the sun went down."

plus this:

[Cersei, to Ned] "You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

What has she been thinking of all these years?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Aside from... herself?

Does she ever admit to being truly in love with someone? Rhaegar, perhaps, when she was a young girl. But not the Cersei we see now, not Jaime, and certainly not Ned, or Robert.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Submitting and/or unwitting - everyone starts out as a pawn in the got.

I used up all my evidence energy on Sansa. For Cersei, I think adding 2 and 2 to make 5 will do nicely.

It's this:

[Cersei, to Robert] "[...] The king I'd thought to wed would have laid a wolfskin across my bed before the sun went down."

plus this:

[Cersei, to Ned] "You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

What has she been thinking of all these years?

Exactly, and the way you use an unwitting pawn like Sansa is to leverage her personal needs, not her duty to her house.

Sorry, I'm not following you. Where do you get "I love you, Robert," from "the king I thought to wed." And how does "You should have taken the realm" become "I love you, Ned"???