What's with Westeros's blind hatred of Tyrion?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So Tywin tells us in ASOS, and there's no reason not to believe him in that instance, that he offered Tyrion's hand in marriage to everybody from Dorne and the Tully's to undesirables like Edric's mom. And they all turned him down. Why though? For what they know he's the heir to Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. And this really ties in to a bigger part, why does everybody care so much that Tyrion is a dwarf? Westeros is not the greatest place, but it seems a pretty tolerant place. Inter religious conflict is almost non existent (at least until Stannis started R'hlloring at least), and besides Mace being salty for Willas's maiming, there seems too be almost no racism (well there is against Wildlings, but can you blame them given the raiding, killing and raping). The only thing were Westeros seems to be intolerant is in relation to dwarfs, to the point that the lords of Westeros refuse to marry their daughters to Tyrion despite him being one of the best bachelors in Westeros, after Joffrey and on par with Willas. So why is that?

[The Wolves]

Westeros and the world of ice and fire that GRRM created is a very ableist world. Tyrion is a monster and twisted creature because of his physical disabilities. Plus he doesn’t fit their ideas of beauty. Tywin and others don’t help their perception either because his own family hate and abuse him. TWOIAF is a very hateful world especially to ones like Tyrion. 

[Angel Eyes]

16 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Westeros and the world of ice and fire that GRRM created is a very ableist world. Tyrion is a monster and twisted creature because of his physical disabilities. Plus he doesn’t fit their ideas of beauty. Tywin and others don’t help their perception either because his own family hate and abuse him. TWOIAF is a very hateful world especially to ones like Tyrion. 

Not to mention Bran. Remember what Rickard Karstark's sons said about him when they showed up at Winterfell in AGOT?

[Shierak Qiya]

Contempt.  Prejudice.  He was seen as half of a man.  Tyrion's behavior as a young man and later as an adult do not help his cause.  He is an acerbic and obnoxious man.  He would not have gotten away with the manner in which he treated Ser Aliser at the wall if he had not been a Lannister.  Anybody else and Ser Aliser would have had their guts steaming in the dirt.  Tyrion gets away with being an asshole because of his family's reputation.

[Loose Bolt]

Actually I am surprised how tolerant people of Westeros are. For instance in Finland as long we were part of Sweden (until 1808) it was capital crime of not being follower of right faith or being a freak like a gypsy. Or a man could literally loose his head just by being a catholic or an atheist . Last execution of a worshipper of Satan was carried out 1805 and gypsies were outlaws and so anyone could kill them without any legal consequences. 

[Daena the Defiant]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Westeros and the world of ice and fire that GRRM created is a very ableist world. Tyrion is a monster and twisted creature because of his physical disabilities. Plus he doesn’t fit their ideas of beauty. Tywin and others don’t help their perception either because his own family hate and abuse him. TWOIAF is a very hateful world especially to ones like Tyrion. 

This!  The upper aristocracy have effectively have dismissed Willas Tyrell, Heir to Highgarden because of his lame leg, even though he is by all accounts learned and accomplished.   Because of the crippled leg. 

It's a society that equates leadership abilities with physical attractiveness and capabilities.   It in the case of the lords at least, it's a necessary ability since military planning and fighting abilities are very much part of their package of leadership requirements.  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

35 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Actually I am surprised how tolerant people of Westeros are. For instance in Finland as long we were part of Sweden (until 1808) it was capital crime of not being follower of right faith or being a freak like a gypsy. Or a man could literally loose his head just by being a catholic or an atheist . Last execution of a worshipper of Satan was carried out 1805 and gypsies were outlaws and so anyone could kill them without any legal consequences. 

Yeah, exactly, they're super tolerant, except in regards to cripples and dwarfs, which seems super weird and specific.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And they all turned him down.

He's a dwarf.

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Why though? For what they know he's the heir to Casterly Rock and the Westerlands.

Is he though?? Tywin would've said something,if Tywin doesn't treat him like his heir, which is literally the only leverage he has, then no one is going to accept it.

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And this really ties in to a bigger part, why does everybody care so much that Tyrion is a dwarf?

Why peoplle irl cares about other having a different tone of skin than theirs??  Westeros is prejudized.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Westeros is not the greatest place, but it seems a pretty tolerant place.

Hardly, Martin doesn't  dwell on it because that's not the story he's trying to tell but it's there regardless.

How people in the south call the northeners savages, how others believe that the dornish fuck their goats, or when Torrhen Manderly orders Rogarren to be whipped just for being "a bloody lyseni". The only reason why Westeros is so tolerant is because otherwise it could not be one land, so Martin pulled what he pulled.  Regarless intolerance and racism is there in every book.

In Tyrion's case, we have disgusting stories about from the very minute he's born.

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The only thing were Westeros seems to be intolerant is in relation to dwarfs, to the point that the lords of Westeros refuse to marry their daughters to Tyrion despite him being one of the best bachelors in Westeros, after Joffrey and on par with Willas. So why is that?

Because no one wants to marry their daughters to dwarves and because Tyrion was never really Tywin's heir, nor is he ever treated as such bar for Oberyn i believe. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tyrion was never really Tywin's heir, nor is he ever treated as such

Well, he actually is, unless Tywin makes some official proclamation or something. Until Tywin acts actively about it, Tyrion is his heir (at least since Jaime was in the KG).

As for how he is treated, a lot of people treat their heirs like shit, look at Maegor, Aegon IV, Maekar (while Aerion was his heir), Aerys, Joffrey, Roose, Doran, SweetRobin, Balon (whoever you consider his heir to be, he treated them like shit). So what. Unless Tywin officially said Tyrion is not his heir, something that we know for a fact he didn't, then Tyrion was his heir.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well, he actually is, unless Tywin makes some official proclamation or something. Until Tywin acts actively about it, Tyrion is his heir (at least since Jaime was in the KG).

Then why Tyrion feels the need to demand Tywin to make it official then??

 

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As for how he is treated, a lot of people treat their heirs like shit, look at Maegor, Aegon IV, Maekar (while Aerion was his heir), Aerys, Joffrey, Roose, Doran, SweetRobin, Balon (whoever you consider his heir to be, he treated them like shit). So what. Unless Tywin officially said Tyrion is not his heir, something that we know for a fact he didn't, then Tyrion was his heir.

All of them were acknowledged heirs by their fathers in life. Which is Tyrion's main problem, that his father never acknowledged him as his heir, which would create a succession crisis.

Edit: I believe that Arianne was not acknowledged as heir... Which explains a thing or three.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, frenin said:

that his father never acknowledged him as his heir, which would create a succession crisis.

His father never acknowledged him as not his heir. Tyrion asked because he was smart enough to guess Tywin's intentions. He is his son, and the only son that can inherit anything. Tyrion doesn't need to be acknowledged to be his heir

[frenin]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

His father never acknowledged him as not his heir. Tyrion asked because he was smart enough to guess Tywin's intentions. He is his son, and the only son that can inherit anything. Tyrion doesn't need to be acknowledged to be his heir

Sure as hell he does, Tyrion would not ask for a recognition if he didn't know that his position wasn't sure,  without a formal recognition Tyrion's standing is no really  better than Cersei's or her kids or the some cousin. All of them have a claim and Tyrion is a dwarf.

[Lollygag]

This is a case of our modern experience limiting our understanding of Tyrion's situation as a dwarf in that world. A dwarf in the modern world is very different than in Westeros.

The survival of houses all too often depends on strength and battle. Big problems for a dwarf. As Westerosi now and again marry some degree of cousin, having a dwarf in the bloodline is an extra issue. Tyrion personally does well in compensating for his dwarfism with his intelligence and creativity, but that's definitely not a given for children, grandchildren, etc. A dwarf as heir who can't compensate in that harsh world could be the end of your house. And Dinklage is handsome. Book Tyrion is not. It's just Darwin.

[The Hoare]

He looks like a ugly monkey and he's a depraved dwarf. I doubt anyone would ever accept Tyrion as the lord of Casterly Rock. He simply doesn't have enough support to hold it.

[Lee-Sensei]

It was lookism and ableism. Tyrion is an ugly and a dwarf, so he’s considered an undesirable match. It’s not fair, but that’s just how Westeros is.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

How people in the south call the northeners savages, how others believe that the dornish fuck their goats, or when Torrhen Manderly orders Rogarren to be whipped just for being "a bloody lyseni". The only reason why Westeros is so tolerant is because otherwise it could not be one land, so Martin pulled what he pulled.  Regarless intolerance and racism is there in every book.

Apropos of nothing, that might be one of my favorite lines in F&B.

[Quoth the raven,]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Tywin tells us in ASOS, and there's no reason not to believe him in that instance, that he offered Tyrion's hand in marriage to everybody from Dorne and the Tully's to undesirables like Edric's mom. And they all turned him down. Why though? For what they know he's the heir to Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. And this really ties in to a bigger part, why does everybody care so much that Tyrion is a dwarf? Westeros is not the greatest place, but it seems a pretty tolerant place. Inter religious conflict is almost non existent (at least until Stannis started R'hlloring at least), and besides Mace being salty for Willas's maiming, there seems too be almost no racism (well there is against Wildlings, but can you blame them given the raiding, killing and raping). The only thing were Westeros seems to be intolerant is in relation to dwarfs, to the point that the lords of Westeros refuse to marry their daughters to Tyrion despite him being one of the best bachelors in Westeros, after Joffrey and on par with Willas. So why is that?

Why turn down Tyrion as match for their daughters?  Pride.  It was also Tywin's pride to think his son would be a suitable match for these girls.  Pride, family pride to be more specific, is one of the great sins in this epic tale.  Why do people care so much that he's a dwarf?  Girls today would hesitate to date a dwarf.  Westeros girls will be even more hesitant to marry one.  Who can really blame Sansa in this matter.  Heir to Casterly Rock is not a sure thing.  Tywin could do as Randyll and pack his son off to the wall. 

[S. D]

He's a dwarf.

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Then why Tyrion feels the need to demand Tywin to make it official then??

Because Tyrion is needy. He seeks his whores to love him, he is pissed when the smallfolk hate him while cheering for Joffrey, seeks validation for his achievements at Kings Landing. He's the classic clown who wants to be loved.

Tyrion is like this for three reasons

• No mother and a cold-hearted bastard for a father
• He was born a dwarf, with the massive inferiority complex that will have in his world
• His siblings and father are praised by many, Tyrion wants that as well

7 hours ago, frenin said:

 

All of them were acknowledged heirs by their fathers in life. Which is Tyrion's main problem, that his father never acknowledged him as his heir, which would create a succession crisis.

We don't know that. Where are all these proclamations of them acknowledging them that they are their heirs?

There is no reason for Lords to acknowledge who their heir is because usually it is pretty straight forward if they have sons.

House Lannisters position was not as straightforward, though Tyrion was still technically the heir. But obviously he would have liked for his father to have acknowledged him as such, even privately. 

 

2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Why turn down Tyrion as match for their daughters?  Pride.  It was also Tywin's pride to think his son would be a suitable match for these girls.  Pride, family pride to be more specific, is one of the great sins in this epic tale.  Why do people care so much that he's a dwarf?  Girls today would hesitate to date a dwarf.  Westeros girls will be even more hesitant to marry one.  Who can really blame Sansa in this matter.  Heir to Casterly Rock is not a sure thing.  Tywin could do as Randyll and pack his son off to the wall. 

Even if he became Lord, should his bride have dwarf babies it seems pretty likely he'd be removed from power. No realm in the middle ages is going to allow dwarves to rule them. One dwarf might be possible, even then that seems a stretch unless he had unconditional support from his family and vassals, but a whole family is just not going to happen.

I don't imagine this was the case for most of the families who turned down Tyrion, but some of the more savvy Lords will have noticed the (mutual) disdain the Queen and the Heir had for Tyrion and thought it unlikely he ever be allowed to rule when Tywin had died.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Because Tyrion is needy. He seeks his whores to love him, he is pissed when the smallfolk hate him while cheering for Joffrey, seeks validation for his achievements at Kings Landing. He's the classic clown who wants to be loved.

Tyrion is like this for three reasons

• No mother and a cold-hearted bastard for a father
• He was born a dwarf, with the massive inferiority complex that will have in his world
• His siblings and father are praised by many, Tyrion wants that as well

 

And because as Tyrion knows, Tywin doesn't want to acknowledge him as heir because "he killed his mother". It's not like Tyrion is imagining things, Tywin never intends for Tyrion to have the Rock, and Tyrion is many things but he's not stupid. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We don't know that. Where are all these proclamations of them acknowledging them that they are their heirs?

There is no reason for Lords to acknowledge who their heir is because usually it is pretty straight forward if they have sons.

House Lannisters position was not as straightforward, though Tyrion was still technically the heir. But obviously he would have liked for his father to have acknowledged him as such, even privately. 

The only person i've seen treating Tyrion like an heir is Oberyn, Tywin's bannermen straight up laughed at him, which is  something very stupid to do if that little person is someday deciding whether you live or die.

Lords either acknowledge one's heir or treating them as such that anyone can have any problem recognizing they are treating the heir. 

Willas Tyrell is presented as the Heir to Highgarden, so is Robb Stark with Winterfell, even Theon is called heir of Pyke from very early on. Tyrion never receives such treatment.

In both Arianne's and Theon's cases their fathers indeed didn't treat them as heirs because they never intended for thtem to inherit their seats. Hell, early on it's assumed that Jaime would eventually inherit the wardenship of the west.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

and the Heir had for Tyrion and thought it unlikely he ever be allowed to rule when Tywin had died.

Did Joffrey despise Tyrion from early on?? He seemed nice enough to me until Tyrion tried to kept  him in check.