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What's with Westeros's blind hatred of Tyrion?


Alyn Oakenfist

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Tyrion was born both twisted and dwarfed. His face is particularly ugly. His birth is generally regarded as a punishment by the Gods. He's literally cursed. Nobody wants to marry into something like that.

As a result, Tyrion's personality has become distinctly unpleasant. He's obsessed with buying sex, drinking wine, and squandering Lannister gold. Not entirely his fault, of course - he only had a few friends within his family, (long lost) Uncle Gerion and big brother Jaime.

Sure, "ableism" and "lookism" play significant roles in Tyrion's rejection. But don't discredit the curse from the Gods.

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

Tyrion was born both twisted and dwarfed. His face is particularly ugly. His birth is generally regarded as a punishment by the Gods. He's literally cursed. Nobody wants to marry into something like that.

As a result, Tyrion's personality has become distinctly unpleasant. He's obsessed with buying sex, drinking wine, and squandering Lannister gold. Not entirely his fault, of course - he only had a few friends within his family, (long lost) Uncle Gerion and big brother Jaime.

Sure, "ableism" and "lookism" play significant roles in Tyrion's rejection. But don't discredit the curse from the Gods.

His birth is considered a curse from the gods and a blight on any family who births one.  All that as well as being considered abnormal.  Something like an affliction.

His personality might have become unpleasant anyway.  Jaime is evil and Cersei is very nearly so.  Why not Tyrion as well if he comes from the same environment.  It might be his fiber of compassion comes from knowing what it's like to be an underdog.  

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On 8/30/2020 at 6:56 AM, The Wolves said:

Westeros and the world of ice and fire that GRRM created is a very ableist world.

"Ableism" is the natural state of all things. Nature is a cruel, bloody and unfair thing actually.

We've managed to rise above that, with enough wealth and capabilities. Good for us.

Westeros hasn't. They don't have the wealth and capabilities that we have.

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On 8/29/2020 at 2:33 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Tywin tells us in ASOS, and there's no reason not to believe him in that instance, that he offered Tyrion's hand in marriage to everybody from Dorne and the Tully's to undesirables like Edric's mom. And they all turned him down. Why though? For what they know he's the heir to Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. And this really ties in to a bigger part, why does everybody care so much that Tyrion is a dwarf? Westeros is not the greatest place, but it seems a pretty tolerant place. Inter religious conflict is almost non existent (at least until Stannis started R'hlloring at least), and besides Mace being salty for Willas's maiming, there seems too be almost no racism (well there is against Wildlings, but can you blame them given the raiding, killing and raping). The only thing were Westeros seems to be intolerant is in relation to dwarfs, to the point that the lords of Westeros refuse to marry their daughters to Tyrion despite him being one of the best bachelors in Westeros, after Joffrey and on par with Willas. So why is that?

Tyrion isn't being singled out.  It is a general dislike of dwarfs. 

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What gets me is Doran. Because he calls Tyrion an insult, yet is all about insulting matches for his princess

.

"I know it is my duty to provide an heir for Dorne, I have never been forgetful of that. I would have wed, and gladly, but the matches that you brought to me were insults. With every one you spit on me. If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?"

"Because I knew that you would spurn him. I had to be seen to try to find a consort for you once you'd reached a certain age, else it would have raised suspicions, but I dared not bring you any man you might accept. You were promised, Arianne

.

So perhaps Doran feared Arianne might not be insulted by the Imp?

Doubtful

.

I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure. I take some small solace in knowing that he died a cruel death at the hands of the monster that he himself begot.

.

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Also Tyrion was never the heir to Casterly Rock. Jamie was Tywin's heir and for example both Eddard Stark and Tyrion himself seems to have known that, because Tywin will wipe his rear with whatever rules tells him that he can't have what he wants. If Kingsguard can't inherit seats, Tywin will make a new predecent about it.

I  have no doubt that Tywin would rather have seen Genna's children change their names and take Casterly Rock than give it to Tyrion.

So while marriage with Tyrion would be a boon, it wouldn't be to the heir of Casterly Rock. Not to mention that the way Tyrion throws muck back at the world, and generally his behavior with women, would give me alot of pause before I tied the life of a daughter of mine to Tyrion.

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1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

Also Tyrion was never the heir to Casterly Rock. Jamie was Tywin's heir and for example both Eddard Stark and Tyrion himself seems to have known that, because Tywin will wipe his rear with whatever rules tells him that he can't have what he wants. If Kingsguard can't inherit seats, Tywin will make a new predecent about it.

Didn't know that Tywin was King... I doubt that Tywin could make a new precedent for anything but his denial sure as hell was setting the stage for a succession crisis after his death.

 

 

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On 8/30/2020 at 10:42 AM, frenin said:

 

And because as Tyrion knows, Tywin doesn't want to acknowledge him as heir because "he killed his mother".

Which is immaterial in the eyes of Westeros. Tywin has not named anyone else his heir, has not drawn up a will, had his bannerman swore allegiance to another prospective heir.

Tywin could have dropped dead in the first two books at any point and Tyrion would be the new Lord. He may quickly have been challenged, but he would have been the new Lord.

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It's not like Tyrion is imagining things, Tywin never intends for Tyrion to have the Rock, and Tyrion is many things but he's not stupid. 

'Never' we don't know that. The conversation were Tywin makes that threat is pretty heated, given what Tywin had just found out about Tyrion. But other than one private conversation, there is no evidence of 'never'.

 

I don't want to be patronizing, but in the spirit of avoiding a dozen replies on the matter, if you think there is evidence of 'never intends' please directly quote it.

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The only person i've seen treating Tyrion like an heir is Oberyn, Tywin's bannermen straight up laughed at him,

No, they did not.  You are mistaken on that part

Tyrion enters Tywin's camp

The captain was quick to appear, and even quicker to give them an escort when he recognized his lord's son.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ser Flement Brax lifted his visor. "Tyrion," he said in astonishment. "My lord, we all feared you dead, or …" He looked at the clansmen uncertainly. "These … companions of yours …"

So he is treated with respect by Tywin's men. The war council no one is laughing at Tyrion and Tywin dismisses all his men and requests only the council of Tyrion and Kevan. He makes Tyrion his Hand, which is a clear sign that he values him and puts other high ranking Westerland men, Addam Marbrand, Flement Brax, Harrys Swyft, Phillipe Foote and Merlon Crakehall, under his command when he greets Oberyn.

To an outsider Tyrion was treated like a high ranking Lannister. Tywin and Tyrion's private relationship might be toxic, but outwardly it would not have been seen like that, with Tywin giving the authority and prestige that a son of his might get, regardless of height.

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which is  something very stupid to do if that little person is someday deciding whether you live or die.

You can't just make up one claim to justify another. It is just arguing in bad faith.

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Lords either acknowledge one's heir or treating them as such that anyone can have any problem recognizing they are treating the heir. 

? I don't even know what you are trying to say here. But I'm sure you will explain it better, given examples of what you are saying about the Lannisters and then give examples of the other Houses of what you expect to happen.

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Willas Tyrell is presented as the Heir to Highgarden, so is Robb Stark with Winterfell,

By who? Can you quote Ned, an actual POV character by the way, and Mace saying this?

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even Theon is called heir of Pyke from very early on.

By who? Can you quote Balon saying this?

 

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Tyrion never receives such treatment.

He does. You said yourself, Oberyn calls it him twice.

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In both Arianne's and Theon's cases their fathers indeed didn't treat them as heirs because they never intended for thtem to inherit their seats.

We don't know about Theon. You are speculating.

Arrianne was treated worse than Tyrion in terms of responsibility, and she was the heir from birth.

Plus, this argument makes zero sense as to Tywin, Jaime was always his heir. He, possibly wrongly, thought he'd be able to make that happen. Why do you make an exception for Doran thinking he could make Viserys King and his daughter Queen, but not the same for Tywin.

Please learn to be consistent.

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Hell, early on it's assumed that Jaime would eventually inherit the wardenship of the west.

 

Yes. The Wardenship is a military role.. Women, children and dwarves are not expected to become Wardens.

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Did Joffrey despise Tyrion from early on?? He seemed nice enough to me until Tyrion tried to kept  him in check.

 

Their first interaction is Tyrion mocking Joffrey, the Hound threatening Tyrion and Tyrion slapping Joffrey for his comments. They were antagonizing each other from early AGOT.

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15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which is immaterial in the eyes of Westeros. Tywin has not named anyone else his heir, has not drawn up a will, had his bannerman swore allegiance to another prospective heir.

Tywin could have dropped dead in the first two books at any point and Tyrion would be the new Lord. He may quickly have been challenged, but he would have been the new Lord.

It's not inmaterial to the eyes of Westeros, the only one that treats Tyrion as heir is Oberyn, who is clearly trying to weaponize Tyrion agaisnt his family anyway.

Tywin could drop dead and inmediately, the lords ignore Tyrion or a better suitor  with the blessing of the Throne.

Which is why Tyrion wants Tywin to clear the air, him being needy has little to do with it.

 

In AGOT Appendix, Jaime is state as being heir to Casterly Rock.

 

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—SER JAIME, called the Kingslayer, heir to Casterly Rock, a twin to Cersei,

 

Tyrion is called a lot of thingsbut he's never called heir.

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

'Never' we don't know that. The conversation were Tywin makes that threat is pretty heated, given what Tywin had just found out about Tyrion. But other than one private conversation, there is no evidence of 'never'.

 

I don't want to be patronizing, but in the spirit of avoiding a dozen replies on the matter, if you think there is evidence of 'never intends' please directly quote it.

So, other than the conversation that disproves you there is no evidence...

Yes, never. Tywin cools off pretty quickly about that, his whole counterargument is that Tyrion killed his mother, so his words about not harming his family has no value. 

 

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“What do I want, you ask? I’ll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock.” His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?” “The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.” Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.” The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned. I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. “Why?”

It has little to do with what Tywin has just found about if he still calls it Jaime's birthright. Here you have Tyrion thinking that there is a correlation between them...

 

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Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates—” “— someone needs to close them again.” Jaime stood. “I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty—” “You do.” Lord Tywin rose as well. “A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he’ll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—” “NO!” Jaime had heard all that he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business. “No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you’ll hear it? Oberyn Martell? The man’s infamous, and not just for poisoning his sword. He has more bastards than Robert, and beds with boys as well. And if you think for one misbegotten moment that I would wed Joffrey’s widow …” “Lord Tyrell swears the girl’s still maiden.” “She can die a maiden as far as I’m concerned. I don’t want her, and I don’t want your Rock!” “You are my son—” “I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that’s all I mean to be!”

 

Yet again, Tywin considers Jaime his heir.

 

When asked about it, Martin says that Tywin is in denial.

 

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If the Kingsguard forswear wives or inheritances, how can Jaime Lannister be heir to Casterly Rock?


George_RR_Martin    Simple answer: Lord Tywin is in denial. If he admitted that Jaime wasn't heir, he'd have to admit that Tyrion was. And that he has a hard time swallowing

 

Tywin never got over it, and Tywin does not want Tyrion to inherit his Rock.  And he intended that Tyrion never got it.

 

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“You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.”

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, they did not.  You are mistaken on that part

Tyrion enters Tywin's camp

The captain was quick to appear, and even quicker to give them an escort when he recognized his lord's son.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ser Flement Brax lifted his visor. "Tyrion," he said in astonishment. "My lord, we all feared you dead, or …" He looked at the clansmen uncertainly. "These … companions of yours …"

So he is treated with respect by Tywin's men. The war council no one is laughing at Tyrion and Tywin dismisses all his men and requests only the council of Tyrion and Kevan. He makes Tyrion his Hand, which is a clear sign that he values him and puts other high ranking Westerland men, Addam Marbrand, Flement Brax, Harrys Swyft, Phillipe Foote and Merlon Crakehall, under his command when he greets Oberyn.

To an outsider Tyrion was treated like a high ranking Lannister. Tywin and Tyrion's private relationship might be toxic, but outwardly it would not have been seen like that, with Tywin giving the authority and prestige that a son of his might get, regardless of height.

 

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Lord Tywin Lannister turned to his brother. “If my son’s men will not obey his commands, perhaps the vanguard is not the place for him. No doubt he would be more comfortable in the rear, guarding our baggage train.” “Do me no kindnesses, Father,” he said angrily. “If you have no other command to offer me, I’ll lead your van.” Lord Tywin studied his dwarf son. “I said nothing about command. You will serve under Ser Gregor.” Tyrion took one bite of pork, chewed a moment, and spit it out angrily. “I find I am not hungry after all,” he said, climbing awkwardly off the bench. “Pray excuse me, my lords.” Lord Tywin inclined his head, dismissing him. Tyrion turned and walked away. He was conscious of their eyes on his back as he waddled down the hill. A great gust of laughter went up from behind him, but he did not look back. He hoped they all choked on their suckling pigs.

 

So they all laught at Tywin's son, in front of Tywin, Tywin who does not like laughter nor people laughing of the Lions.

 

He puts men under his command to greet Oberyn... Because they are greeting Oberyn and Tyrion is on the Small qCouncil.

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

? I don't even know what you are trying to say here. But I'm sure you will explain it better, given examples of what you are saying about the Lannisters and then give examples of the other Houses of what you expect to happen.

Lords acknowledge their heirs right away, or treat in a manner that make it clear than they are their heirs. Tyrion is never treated as such by no one, in a normal setting in which Tyrion's height was standard, Tywin's actions would be an inconvenience, given Tyrion's dwarfism, he's position is at risk.

And i don't know, from Robb, to Asha...

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

By who? Can you quote Ned, an actual POV character by the way, and Mace saying this?

By their family...

Both Mace's mother and daughter call Wyllas heir to Highgarden.

 

And Ned states that Robb is his heir.

 

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“One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

By who? Can you quote Balon saying this?

No, Balon never calls Theon his heir... But Balon does not want Theon as his heir and he could not be more clear about it. He wants Asha as heir.

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He does. You said yourself, Oberyn calls it him twice.

Is there other?? Why does Ned believe that the wardenship is going to Jaime then??

Oberyn does not care about Tywin and he's trying to use Tyrion as a weapon about his family. Most do care about Tywin's opinion, which is why only Oberyn and Tyrion see him as the heir to the Rock.

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We don't know about Theon. You are speculating.

Are you sure??

 

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That was Balon’s blindness; he saw himself in his wild, headstrong daughter, and believed she could succeed him. He was wrong in that, and Aeron tried to tell him so. “No woman will ever rule the ironborn, not even a woman such as Asha,” he insisted, but Balon could be deaf to things he did not wish to hear.

 

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They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. “The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared,” the king had said. “I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.”

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Arrianne was treated worse than Tyrion in terms of responsibility, and she was the heir from birth.

Arianne stopped being her father's heir in his mind, since the moment he decided that she was going to be Visery's queen.

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Plus, this argument makes zero sense as to Tywin, Jaime was always his heir. He, possibly wrongly, thought he'd be able to make that happen. Why do you make an exception for Doran thinking he could make Viserys King and his daughter Queen, but not the same for Tywin.

I did not make and exception  for either, i stated that they did not want nor intended  their current heirs succeeding them.  I don't have to be disrespectful as you seem unable to no be, but this just a strawman,

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. The Wardenship is a military role.. Women, children and dwarves are not expected to become Wardens.

Neither Kingsguards. As Ned says, the title is just an honor anyway that goes with the lordship.  Were there a Warden of East thatwas not Jeyne's Arryn during her reign??

 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Their first interaction is Tyrion mocking Joffrey, the Hound threatening Tyrion and Tyrion slapping Joffrey for his comments. They were antagonizing each other from early AGOT.

Fair enough. 

 

 

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The apendice of the AGOT still lists Jaime as the heir to CR. And Tywin says straight into Tyrions face that he shall never have Casterly Rock

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“What do I want, you ask? I’ll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock.”

His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?”

“The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.”

Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.”

Tyrion wanted confirmation to his rights of the inheritance because he needed that confirmation.

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Everyone is so quick to talk about how Westeros hates Tyrion because of his looks and his status as a dwarf. Granted, if he was ugly regular-sized man or if he was a sexy dwarf, things would be slightly different.

But has it ever occurred to anyone that Westeros hates Tyrion because he's a whore-mongering, self-righteous, entitled asshole with a lust for power who drinks too much. Oh and did I mention how much of a spendthrift Tyrion is. To the casual observer, if he inherits Casterly Rock, he's a social and financial nightmare waiting to happen.

The act of kinslaying and the fact that Tyrion killed his father in his own home while he was on the privvy makes everything worse. The kingslaying? sure, we know he is innocent of it but Tyrion told Jaime that he did do it and that he enjoyed it. Tyrion also made it publicly (and very emotionally) known that he enjoyed watching King Joffrey die and that he wishes he let Stannis Baratheon sack the city and destroy the noblemen who supported Joffrey and House Lannister.

So yes, the kinslaying and kingslaying makes it worse.

Seriously. I'm kind of astounded how many readers don't realize how needy Tyrion is and how off-putting it is to deal with an entitled, needy grown man. I think the readers and fans (particularly the ones who have been around the longest) are being blinded by nostalgia, their affections for Tyrion and Peter Dinklage's portrayal in the mummer's farce.

You do notice that the show's most kindest, most modern and most open-minded people don't have anything good to say about Tyrion. And when I say good I mean truly good. Nothing backhanded or begrudging.

Seriously.

No one holds Tyrion with regard. Doran Martell called him a monster and Doran Martell is not only what people would call "a bleeding heart liberal" but he has been unable to walk and show his face for how many years now?

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5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But has it ever occurred to anyone that Westeros hates Tyrion because he's a whore-mongering, self-righteous, entitled asshole with a lust for power who drinks too much. Oh and did I mention how much of a spendthrift Tyrion is. To the casual observer, if he inherits Casterly Rock, he's a social and financial nightmare waiting to happen.

Tywin may well disdain him for that, but Westeros in particular doesn't care about that, the usual insult is Imp, not whoremonger,

And how many people know Tyrion that well to tell he's self righteous and entitled?? The readers may well  dislike Tyrion for that, but Westeros?? Doubtful.

 

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The act of kinslaying and the fact that Tyrion killed his father in his own home while he was on the privvy makes everything worse. The kingslaying? sure, we know he is innocent of it but Tyrion told Jaime that he did do it and that he enjoyed it. Tyrion also made it publicly (and very emotionally) known that he enjoyed watching King Joffrey die and that he wishes he let Stannis Baratheon sack the city and destroy the noblemen who supported Joffrey and House Lannister.

So yes, the kinslaying and kingslaying makes it worse.

Wasn't Tyrion hated before that?? 

 

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Seriously. I'm kind of astounded how many readers don't realize how needy Tyrion is and how off-putting it is to deal with an entitled, needy grown man. I think the readers and fans (particularly the ones who have been around the longest) are being blinded by nostalgia, their affections for Tyrion and Peter Dinklage's portrayal in the mummer's farce.

No, I think the readers know Tyrion's flaws the best, but here you're trying to give Tyrion's only known by the readers sins and sacting as if the whole Westeros was aware of them,

Tyrion is slandered since his very birth, why people try to dance in circles around that .

 

 

 

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Seems to me that there is either a deeper hatred of the Lannisters or Dwarves where Tyrion is concerned.   Oberyn & Tyrion:

Your skies were too grey, your wines too sweet, your women too chaste, your food too bland . . . and you yourself were the greatest disappointment of all."
"I had just been born. What did you expect of me?"
"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been born to the King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."    
ASOS Tyrion V

 

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28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tywin may well disdain him for that, but Westeros in particular doesn't care about that, the usual insult is Imp, not whoremonger,

Do you know what an imp is?

Merriam-Webster defines imp as a small demon or a mischievous child. Cambridge  defines it as a small evil spirit or a child who behaves badly in a way that is more funny (re: annoying) than serious (re: threatening). Vocabulary.com defines imp as a mischievous troublemaker and ascribes it to be more characteristic of a child than an adult. Oxford Dictionary defines imp as small mischievous demon. The Collins Dictionary defines imp as a small, bothersome magical creature that playfully causes trouble for others for the sake of their own amusement.

None of these are good things. And notice how it has more to do with mischief, naughtiness, inappropriately bawdy humor, childishness and devilishness than size?

The childishness and the naughtiness is key.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

And how many people know Tyrion that well to tell he's self righteous and entitled?? The readers may well  dislike Tyrion for that, but Westeros?? Doubtful.

How is it doubtful?

Wasn't Tyrion in attendance whenever his father would hold feasts, frolics and meetings in Casterly Rock? Casterly Rock is a huge castle and the capital of the Westerlands. Surely, there would be people of all backgrounds and ages in the West who come to the Rock and make Tyrion's acquaintance.

Is Tyrion not allowed to venture out on his own? He went to the Wall and stayed there for a couple days, didn't he? He knows his way around King's Landing does he not? He talks to people wherever he goes, right?

Wasn't Tyrion accompanying the King and half his court on his royal tours? The trip with the royal party to Winterfell was not his first rodeo.

Doesn't Tyrion whore and drink wherever he goes whenever he can?

Tyrion gets around. He's not at all like Quasimodo, confined and hidden away within the Rock. He is a widely known entity.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Wasn't Tyrion hated before that?? 

I believe I clearly stated that the kinslaying and the kingslaying made everything worst.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, I think the readers know Tyrion's flaws the best, but here you're trying to give Tyrion's only known by the readers sins and sacting as if the whole Westeros was aware of them,

Oh stop. Reading is fundamental.

Nowhere did I say or suggest that Westeros hates Tyrion because he is a rapist who deceives poor people into eating human flesh and has people assassinated because they expose his fake love affair with a prostitute.

I talked about the stuff that the people of Westeros are likely to notice and discuss.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tyrion is slandered since his very birth, why people try to dance in circles around that .

Don't be silly.

The only people who go out of their way to slander Tyrion on account of his birth are Tywin, Cerseii and people who are sworn enemies of Tywin. Everyone else knows that Tyrion is not at fault for the death of Joanna Lannister. Who blames Tyrion for killing Joanna and for being a curse? Wildlings? Okay, well wildlings are literal barbarians and no one likes or respects wildlings in Westeros either so that's a moot point.

Even Tywin's most bitter enemies know that a newborn Tyrion did not set out to kill his mother and embarrass their father. They think that the gods did it to teach Tywin a lesson and they just use the circumstances and nature of Tyrion's birth and his physical disability as a weapon against Tywin Lannister.

In the series, Tyrion gets more flack for his behavior and his ties to House Lannister than his size/appearance.

 

 
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3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Do you know what an imp is?

Merriam-Webster defines imp as a small demon or a mischievous child. Cambridge  defines it as a small evil spirit or a child who behaves badly in a way that is more funny (re: annoying) than serious (re: threatening). Vocabulary.com defines imp as a mischievous troublemaker and ascribes it to be more characteristic of a child than an adult. Oxford Dictionary defines imp as small mischievous demon. The Collins Dictionary defines imp as a small, bothersome magical creature that playfully causes trouble for others for the sake of their own amusement.

None of these are good things. And notice how it has more to do with mischief, naughtiness, inappropriately bawdy humor, childishness and devilishness than size?

The childishness and the naughtiness is key.

 

Do i need to remember you that Tyrion is branded as little devil monster since his very come to the world??

 

36 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

How is it doubtful?

Wasn't Tyrion in attendance whenever his father would hold feasts, frolics and meetings in Casterly Rock? Casterly Rock is a huge castle and the capital of the Westerlands. Surely, there would be people of all backgrounds and ages in the West who come to the Rock and make Tyrion's acquaintance.

Is Tyrion not allowed to venture out on his own? He went to the Wall and stayed there for a couple days, didn't he? He knows his way around King's Landing does he not? He talks to people wherever he goes, right?

Wasn't Tyrion accompanying the King and half his court on his royal tours? The trip with the royal party to Winterfell was not his first rodeo.

Doesn't Tyrion whore and drink wherever he goes whenever he can?

Tyrion gets around. He's not at all like Quasimodo, confined and hidden away within the Rock. He is a widely known entity

Because it is, how many people do you see talking about Tyrion being a whoremonger, needy, self righteous and entitled that are not Lannisters??  Can you point 10 non Lannisters??

He's a widely known entity because he's Tywin's oprobium, he is widely known, from birth, because he's considere a monster and punishment from the gods. He's known because he's a Lannister.

When the smallfolk were asking for his head during his tenure as Hand, was because they considered him needy?? When the lords rejected him as a suitor for their daughters... Was  because they knew he was going to be entitled??

 

 

43 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I believe I clearly stated that the kinslaying and the kingslaying made everything worst.

That's very obvious, the point is, was he not hated before that?? Was he not hated right after he was born??

 

47 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Don't be silly.

The only people who go out of their way to slander Tyrion on account of his birth are Tywin, Cerseii and people who are sworn enemies of Tywin. Everyone else knows that Tyrion is not at fault for the death of Joanna Lannister. Who blames Tyrion for killing Joanna and for being a curse? Wildlings? Okay, well wildlings are literal barbarians and no one likes or respects wildlings in Westeros either so that's a moot point.

Even Tywin's most bitter enemies know that a newborn Tyrion did not set out to kill his mother and embarrass their father. They think that the gods did it to teach Tywin a lesson and they just use the circumstances and nature of Tyrion's birth and his physical disability as a weapon against Tywin Lannister.

In the series, Tyrion gets more flack for his behavior and his ties to House Lannister than his size/appearance.

 

That's a nice strawman, since i did not mention Joanna Lannister once.

 

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“I had just been born. What did you expect of me?” “Enormity,” the black-haired prince replied. “You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been born to the King’s Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm.” “Famine, plague, and war, no doubt.” Tyrion gave a sour smile. “It’s always famine, plague, and war. Oh, and winter, and the long night that never ends.” “All that,” said Prince Oberyn, “and your father’s fall as well. Lord Tywin had made himself greater than King Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man.”

 

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In 273 AC, however, Lady Joanna was taken to childbed once again at Casterly Rock, where she died delivering Lord Tywin’s second son. Tyrion, as the babe was named, was a malformed, dwarfish babe born with stunted legs, an oversized head, and mismatched, demonic eyes (some reports also suggested he had a tail, which was lopped off at his lord father’s command). Lord Tywin’s Doom, the smallfolk called this ill-made creature, and Lord Tywin’s Bane.

 

So was or was not Tyrion slandered from the get go??

I can't really take seriously the last bit,

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

The apendice of the AGOT still lists Jaime as the heir to CR.

Interesting. The appendix to ACOK and ASOS don't list him as that. I wonder what changed?

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Tyrion wanted confirmation to his rights of the inheritance because he needed that confirmation.

Yes, Tyrion needed that. He's a character who needs reaffirmation. The realm did not.

21 hours ago, frenin said:

It's not inmaterial to the eyes of Westeros,

You've repeated that twice and not backed it up with anything.

Where is your evidence that Westeros need Lords to proclaim their sons their heirs?

Robert was King and felt he was stuck with Joffrey. Why did Robert simply not name him his heir? Job done! Why did Randyl Tarly not simply do that? Gerold the Golden was deeply unimpressed with the prospect of Tytos becoming Lord. Why not simply name Jason or his Grandson Tywin his heir?

I think, once again, you are arguing in bad faith over this. That there will have been many occasions when Lords have not named their sons their heirs and they have still inherited.

Aegon V had to disinherit Duncan to remove him from the succession line. He officially had to do it. Tywin's done no such thing.

 

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the only one that treats Tyrion as heir is Oberyn, who is clearly trying to weaponize Tyrion agaisnt his family anyway.

What does that even mean?

How are heirs supposed to be treated?

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Tywin could drop dead and inmediately, the lords ignore Tyrion or a better suitor  with the blessing of the Throne.

So then Tywin is immaterial to this. Tyrion needed support from the Throne and the Lannister vassals.

He's wasting his time asking his father, in a private conversation, to acknowledge him.

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Which is why Tyrion wants Tywin to clear the air, him being needy has little to do with it.

Him being needy has a lot to do with it.

Do you not think Tyrion, at times, is a needy character? Please answer this

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In AGOT Appendix, Jaime is state as being heir to Casterly Rock.

Sure. What about the four other appendices?

But I'm perfectly okay with this argument, but are you? You are telling other people in this thread that Jaime can't possibly inherit and here you are proving that the appendices of AGOT states he can.

Tyrion is younger than Jaime. If the appendix of AGOT states he is the heir, then that is cool.

 

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Tyrion is called a lot of thingsbut he's never called heir.

You pointed out that he is called heir. By Oberyn.

But not must by Oberyn, but Ilyrrio as well

 "Do you think King Stannis will give it to you? I am told he is a great one for the law. Your brother wears the white cloak, so you are heir by all the laws of Westeros."

 

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So, other than the conversation that disproves you there is no evidence...

'Other than the evidence you gave me there is no evidence'. Are you serious?

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Yes, never. Tywin cools off pretty quickly about that,

Does he? Tywin's not a POV character, how do you possibly know this?

You say pretty quickly, are we talking hours? days? weeks?

 

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his whole counterargument is that Tyrion killed his mother, so his words about not harming his family has no value. 

That is not his whole counterargument.

"to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

"My whorehouse?" The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, "Cersei told you about Alayaya."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."
"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"
 
His whole argument was not based on his dead mother and I know you know this because at least once a month I somehow have to share these same quotes with you in various discussions.
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It has little to do with what Tywin has just found about if he still calls it Jaime's birthright. Here you have Tyrion thinking that there is a correlation between them...

Then if it is Jaime's birthright and the appendix of AGOT confirms that, then what is your issue here?

It seems you are arguing that Jaime, Tywin's oldest son, is his heir. If that is the case, why should he proclaim Tyrion as his heir?

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Yet again, Tywin considers Jaime his heir.

Yeah, I don't have an issue with that. Jaime's his oldest son.

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When asked about it, Martin says that Tywin is in denial.

Yup. I also agree. But as you pointed out, the realm does not consider Tyrion the rightful heir, nor does the appendix. Does not seem there is a lot Tywin can do about that.

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Tywin never got over it, and Tywin does not want Tyrion to inherit his Rock.  And he intended that Tyrion never got it.

Pure conjecture. We have no idea if Tywin never intended this. He's not a POV. Your headcannon is not fact.  I don't know why this frequently needs to be pointed out to you in conversations.

 

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So they all laught at Tywin's son, in front of Tywin, Tywin who does not like laughter nor people laughing of the Lions.

No, we have no idea what they are laughing at. Tyrion may well be paranoid about this, given he's a dwarf in a very ableist world he may well be sensitive to stuff that is not necessarily aimed at him.

What we do know is that the vassals of House Lannister have been pretty respectful to Tyrion in their interactions with him. Just as respectful as the vassals of North to Robb when he was at Wintefell, or the vassals of Edmure at Riverrun.

 

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He puts men under his command to greet Oberyn... Because they are greeting Oberyn and Tyrion is on the Small qCouncil.

 

And? Are there or are there not respected Westerland nobles under Tyrion's command? 

Why just ignore evidence? Tyrion was given authority over his father's vassals. He's very clearly part of the senior command.

 

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Lords acknowledge their heirs right away,

No they don't.  Prove it. 15 quotes from the series of Lords acknowledging their heirs right away.

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or treat in a manner that make it clear than they are their heirs.

15 examples and quotes from ASOIAF books please. If all Lords do this, then this should be no problem

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Tyrion is never treated as such by no one,

Is Oberyn 'no one'?

 

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in a normal setting in which Tyrion's height was standard, Tywin's actions would be an inconvenience, given Tyrion's dwarfism, he's position is at risk.

What?

Are you arguing that Tyrion is not the rightful heir? That Westeros does not recognize him as such?

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And i don't know, from Robb, to Asha...

Please provide evidence, so we can end this discussion.

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By their family...

So you're moving the goalposts.

You specifically blamed Tywin. Are you now saying it is the fault of Jaime, Kevan, Genna and other Lannistes?

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Both Mace's mother and daughter call Wyllas heir to Highgarden.

So Tyrion's family, not Tywin is to blame then?

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And Ned states that Robb is his heir.

When does he proclaim it to the public? To his vassals?

He's mentions it once to Bran. And Ned is a POV character. Tywin is not.

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No, Balon never calls Theon his heir... But Balon does not want Theon as his heir

Conjecture. We don't know that.

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and he could not be more clear about it. He wants Asha as heir.

No, we know in the absence of his sons he has favoured his daughter.

That does not mean he expected her to inherit over Theon, though he may have secretly wanted it.

Can you quote when Balon says that Asha will inherit Pyke from him?

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Is there other?? Why does Ned believe that the wardenship is going to Jaime then??

Likely because Tyrion is a dwarf and the Wardenship is a military role. At least that is my theory.

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Oberyn does not care about Tywin and he's trying to use Tyrion as a weapon about his family. Most do care about Tywin's opinion, which is why only Oberyn and Tyrion see him as the heir to the Rock.

 

Only? Once again, you are confusing your own headcannon with fact.

We have no idea how many people in the series view Tyrion as the heir. I really don't know why you feel to make declarations about things we don't have enough evidence one way or the  other on.

 

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Are you sure??

Am I sure that we don't know? Yes.

If you have evidence from Balon's mouth then I would love to hear it. Until then, we don't know, its just speculation.

The fact that your own quote makes it clear that Theon still stands in her way, should be enough for you on this matter.

 

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Arianne stopped being her father's heir in his mind, since the moment he decided that she was going to be Visery's queen.

 

But he never proclaimed Quentyn his heir either. Your entire  point was that all Lords proclaim their heirs. Doran quite clearly did not.

 

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I did not make and exception  for either, i stated that they did not want nor intended  their current heirs succeeding them.  I don't have to be disrespectful as you seem unable to no be, but this just a strawman,

How was it a strawman?

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Neither Kingsguards. As Ned says, the title is just an honor anyway that goes with the lordship.  Were there a Warden of East thatwas not Jeyne's Arryn during her reign??

 

We don't know. See how easy that is? Admitting that we don't know things, rather than arguing that we do for the sake of an online argument.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Interesting. The appendix to ACOK and ASOS don't list him as that. I wonder what changed?

That he stopped to be perceived as Tywin's heir, i assume.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You've repeated that twice and not backed it up with anything.

Where is your evidence that Westeros need Lords to proclaim their sons their heirs?

Robert was King and felt he was stuck with Joffrey. Why did Robert simply not name him his heir? Job done! Why did Randyl Tarly not simply do that? Gerold the Golden was deeply unimpressed with the prospect of Tytos becoming Lord. Why not simply name Jason or his Grandson Tywin his heir?

I think, once again, you are arguing in bad faith over this. That there will have been many occasions when Lords have not named their sons their heirs and they have still inherited.

Aegon V had to disinherit Duncan to remove him from the succession line. He officially had to do it. Tywin's done no such thing.

You are right here, 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, Tyrion needed that. He's a character who needs reaffirmation. The realm did not.

So, you're literally seeing that Jaime is listed as the heir of Casterly Rock... Yet, you still go with that excuse, even after it's made clear that Tywin does not intend for Tyrion to get the Rock.

The Realm needed that reaffirmation as much as Tyrion, if not more.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What does that even mean?

How are heirs supposed to be treated?

Heirs are supposed to be addressed as such. In most of their first introductions with anyone, their title is presented.  How many people introduce Tyrion as the heir of anything??

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So then Tywin is immaterial to this. Tyrion needed support from the Throne and the Lannister vassals.

He's wasting his time asking his father, in a private conversation, to acknowledge him.

 Tywin's public endorsement is a big boost for Tyrion, as it can help the lords to fall in line.

And Tyrion is asking his father to acknowledge him in front of all the Realm.

 

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“What do I want, you ask? I’ll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock.” His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?” “The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.” Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.” The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned. I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. “Why?”

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Him being needy has a lot to do with it.

Do you not think Tyrion, at times, is a needy character? Please answer this

Very much so.

But he's not being needy this time, he knows that as dwarf he's far from certain to get the Rock and he needs Tywin's public blessing to help him get it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. What about the four other appendices?

But I'm perfectly okay with this argument, but are you? You are telling other people in this thread that Jaime can't possibly inherit and here you are proving that the appendices of AGOT states he can.

Tyrion is younger than Jaime. If the appendix of AGOT states he is the heir, then that is cool.

In the other appendices he's not listed as heir, which is why i at the end believe that he could not inherit, yet in those three appendices in which Tyrion is not a traitor he's not listed as heir, even after Jaime stops being listed as the heir, Tyrion is still never listed as the heir, Tywin simply has no heir, regardless of Jaime's status.

I believe that it was Ran the one who asked Martin that, saying Martin that it was all due Tywin's denial.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You pointed out that he is called heir. By Oberyn.

Talking about bad faith, if Tyrion's position was so well assumed, I'm sure that you'll have a very easy time finding other people calling him heir to Casterly Rock.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

'Other than the evidence you gave me there is no evidence'. Are you serious?

 

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“You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.”

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does he? Tywin's not a POV character, how do you possibly know this?

You say pretty quickly, are we talking hours? days? weeks?

Fair enough.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not his whole counterargument.

"to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

"My whorehouse?" The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, "Cersei told you about Alayaya."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."
"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"
 
His whole argument was not based on his dead mother and I know you know this because at least once a month I somehow have to share these same quotes with you in various discussions.

Once a month?? You must've confused me with the other dozen people you have this bery same conversation with. 

 

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Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.” The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned. I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. “Why?” he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question. “You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.” “My whorehouse?” The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, “Cersei told you about Alayaya.” “Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?” “Tysha.” He spat out the answer, defiant. “And that camp follower on the Green Fork?” “Why do you care?” he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae’s name in his presence. “I don’t. No more than I care if they live or die.” “It was you who had Yaya whipped.” It was not a question. “Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons.” Lord Tywin’s voice was colder than ice. “Did she lie?” Tyrion would not deny it. “I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her.” “To save a whore’s virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?” “You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn’t tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you’re so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen … why would I harm Tommen? He’s a good lad, and mine own blood.” “As was your mother.” Lord Tywin rose abruptly, to tower over his dwarf son. “Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station. And make no mistake— this was the last time I will suffer you to bring shame onto House Lannister. You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I’ll hang.”

So yes dead mother. 

Tyrion outright tells Tywin that he took a page off his book to keep Cersei in check and Tywin denies him by saying that because he killed his mother, he's capable of killing his blood.

And mind you, Tywin wasn't the one bringing whores to his bed chambers?? 

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Then if it is Jaime's birthright and the appendix of AGOT confirms that, then what is your issue here?

It seems you are arguing that Jaime, Tywin's oldest son, is his heir. If that is the case, why should he proclaim Tyrion as his heir?

Because as Tyrion proclaims, that birthright ended with him donning the white cloak.

Yet as both Tywin, Tyrion and Martin keep telling that he's in denial.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Pure conjecture. We have no idea if Tywin never intended this. He's not a POV. Your headcannon is not fact.  I don't know why this frequently needs to be pointed out to you in conversations.

So Martin says that Tywin does not want it, that Tywin is in denial, Tywin  says that Tyrion shall never have the Rock. Yet somehow there is a window. Huh.

 

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What?

Are you arguing that Tyrion is not the rightful heir? That Westeros does not recognize him as such?

I am arguing that he's not seen as that.

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So you're moving the goalposts.

You specifically blamed Tywin. Are you now saying it is the fault of Jaime, Kevan, Genna and other Lannistes?

Nope.  

Tywin's family, and pretty much anyone,  is not going to recognize him as anything if Tywin Lannister doesn't do it.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Conjecture. We don't know that.

If you call conjecture his words, then sure.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, we know in the absence of his sons he has favoured his daughter.

That does not mean he expected her to inherit over Theon, though he may have secretly wanted it.

Can you quote when Balon says that Asha will inherit Pyke from him?

 

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That was Balon’s blindness; he saw himself in his wild, headstrong daughter, and believed she could succeed him. He was wrong in that, and Aeron tried to tell him so. “No woman will ever rule the ironborn, not even a woman such as Asha,” he insisted, but Balon could be deaf to things he did not wish to hear.

 

They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. “The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared,” the king had said. “I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.”

 

He had a son, mind you, he just didn't want that son to inherit Pyke, nor i think can be discussed that Robert's and Ned's intention was not to eventually place their man in the Seastone chair.

Isn't it your own strawman. I merely said that Asha and not Theon was intended to be his heir and as such. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

But he never proclaimed Quentyn his heir either. Your entire  point was that all Lords proclaim their heirs. Doran quite clearly did not.

Yes, ofc, because it was a secret plot, yet privately, Doran did treat him as heir.

Nor my point was that the lords and kings procclaim their heirs or treat them in a manner that it makes clear they are the heir.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, we have no idea what they are laughing at. Tyrion may well be paranoid about this, given he's a dwarf in a very ableist world he may well be sensitive to stuff that is not necessarily aimed at him.

What we do know is that the vassals of House Lannister have been pretty respectful to Tyrion in their interactions with him. Just as respectful as the vassals of North to Robb when he was at Wintefell, or the vassals of Edmure at Riverrun.

Sure, whatever.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, we have no idea what they are laughing at. Tyrion may well be paranoid about this, given he's a dwarf in a very ableist world he may well be sensitive to stuff that is not necessarily aimed at him.

What we do know is that the vassals of House Lannister have been pretty respectful to Tyrion in their interactions with him. Just as respectful as the vassals of North to Robb when he was at Wintefell, or the vassals of Edmure at Riverrun.

Well, publicly endorsing him would be a big step. Yet he doesn't want him to have the Rock.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Pure conjecture. We have no idea if Tywin never intended this. He's not a POV. Your headcannon is not fact.  I don't know why this frequently needs to be pointed out to you in conversations.

Martin says that Tywin is in denial about Jaime because otherwise he would have to face that Tyrion is his heir, Tywin says that neither the gods nor the men will force his hand on the matter. So we do have an indea that Tywin never intended to have him as heir.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And? Are there or are there not respected Westerland nobles under Tyrion's command? 

Why just ignore evidence? Tyrion was given authority over his father's vassals. He's very clearly part of the senior command.

Tyrion is part of the Small Council and reprsents the Crown, he is by default part of the senior command in that situation. And whatever he feels, Tywin does see Tyrion as a Lannister and son, which means he is part of the senior command.  But Kevan is also part of that senior command, yet he's not seen as heir either.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Only? Once again, you are confusing your own headcannon with fact.

We have no idea how many people in the series view Tyrion as the heir. I really don't know why you feel to make declarations about things we don't have enough evidence one way or the  other on.

Tyrion encounters a good deal of people in three books, he also is addressed by a good deal of people and he's widely known in Westeros.

Yet, there is only person that calls him heir, a person that wants to use Tyrion against his own family.

I'm very confident with my statement that Tyrion is not seen as Tywin's heir.

 

 

 

 

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