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silverwolf22

sansa and stannis are candidates for the valonqar

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valonqar is gender neutral so its the valyrian word for younger sibling sansa is married to tyrion her younger brother making sansa cerseis sister in law  ( younger sister)  cersei was married to robert baratheon the older brother to stannis making stannis her younger brother in law 

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Posted (edited)

Reasonable take, but I think it's Jaime for sure

Edited by Orm
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2 hours ago, silverwolf22 said:

valonqar is gender neutral so its the valyrian word for younger sibling sansa is married to tyrion her younger brother making sansa cerseis sister in law  ( younger sister)  cersei was married to robert baratheon the older brother to stannis making stannis her younger brother in law 

Here are my thoughts on this matter.  Sansa is not more beautiful than a younger Cersei.  Of course looks may have some subjectivity to it but my reading of the material leads me to believe it is the younger Cersei who is the more beautiful of the two.  And it is not close. 

The younger more beautiful girl is a queen.  Sansa is not a queen.  I do not think the girl who will take everything away from Cersei is Sansa. 

I agree on the gender neutral term, valongqar.  But I also believe this person will be one of these two:  Tyrion or Aegon (but only if he is the real deal).

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1 hour ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Here are my thoughts on this matter.  Sansa is not more beautiful than a younger Cersei.  Of course looks may have some subjectivity to it but my reading of the material leads me to believe it is the younger Cersei who is the more beautiful of the two.  And it is not close. 

The younger more beautiful girl is a queen.  Sansa is not a queen.  I do not think the girl who will take everything away from Cersei is Sansa. 

I agree on the gender neutral term, valongqar.  But I also believe this person will be one of these two:  Tyrion or Aegon (but only if he is the real deal).

first of all it didnt state the younger more beautiful girl is a queen maggie just says another and the beauty part could easily reference inner beauty

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3 hours ago, silverwolf22 said:

valonqar is gender neutral so its the valyrian word for younger sibling sansa is married to tyrion her younger brother making sansa cerseis sister in law  ( younger sister)  cersei was married to robert baratheon the older brother to stannis making stannis her younger brother in law 

"His hands" is not gender neutral.  

I'll grant you Stannis is intresting because he is "the younger brother", but the translation into Valyrian suggests someone with Valyrian blood.  

The only person known as the younger brother with the blood of old Valyria is Aegon VI. 

He also fits the younger and more beautiful person because Cersei describes Rhaegar as the most beautiful person in the world, and Aegon VI is a younger version of Rheagar.

 

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2 hours ago, Orm said:

Reasonable take, but I think it's Jaime for sure

There is a give away that its not Jaime. 

"His hands", Jaime only has the one. The only other alternative is for him to use the strangler poison and that does not fit his character.

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24 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

There is a give away that its not Jaime. 

"His hands", Jaime only has the one. The only other alternative is for him to use the strangler poison and that does not fit his character.

Ok...... Tyrion, then? 

That's a nice catch, though.

Don't really think things about a fictional Narcissistic character's prophecised fictional killer too seriously....

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4 minutes ago, Orm said:

Ok...... Tyrion, then? 

That's a nice catch, though.

Don't really think things about a fictional Narcissistic character's prophecised fictional killer too seriously....

No, its Aegon VI. 

But I appreciate the fanbase and their dedication to weed through every word of this series. Sometimes though personal bias can lead them astray.  

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7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, its Aegon VI. 

You mean Faegon, who might be the real Aegon?

 

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Sometimes though personal bias can lead them astray.  

Yup, no Kidding....

It's in us all....

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6 minutes ago, Orm said:

You mean Faegon, who might be the real Aegon?

 

Nah, Faegon is a blackfyre like Varys. 

I'm talking about the real Aegon who survived the sack of Kingslanding. 

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8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nah, Faegon is a blackfyre like Varys. 

I'm talking about the real Aegon who survived the sack of Kingslanding. 

You lost me here,

I am not an avid book reader....

But I really don't know which Aegon Ur talking about...

Would be cool if you explained, if you oblige that is....

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I'll grant you Stannis is intresting because he is "the younger brother", but the translation into Valyrian suggests someone with Valyrian blood.  

Well Stan the man does in fact has Valyrian blood....

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2 minutes ago, Orm said:

You lost me here,

I am not an avid book reader....

But I really don't know which Aegon Ur talking about...

Would be cool if you explained, if you oblige that is.... 

I wrote about it here on a different thread: 

No, YG is a blackfyre like Varys. 

However Varys did switch the babies and stowed away Aegon VI to Pentos, that was how his cloths were in the box Ilyrio gave Duck. YG didn't recognize it because he wasn't the real Aegon.

Ashara Dayne who was Elia's lady in waiting had her baby switched at the start of the war. When Ned arrives at starfall he is first with word of KL, and tells her what happened to 'Aegon'. Ashara realizes what she has done and jumps into the water, but survives. 

When Aegon was thirteen he was sent to the house of black and white at 13 (the age requirment) since Ilyrio and Varys thought that would force him to give up his claim.  

This is why Dany and Viserys are homeless for some thirteen years or less, because Aegon (and YG, Ilyrio's son) are occupying the mansion in Pentos. 

Once Aegon is sent of to the house of black and white and YG is sent off with Connington they moved in Daenerys and Viserys. 

Aegon ditches the FM after a while and follows Ilyrio to KL (first book), asking for the dragon eggs probably, and Rugen (varys) has him locked up in the black cells hoping that him taking the black would again force him to lose all claims to the throne. 

He told Yoren to keep him locked up so he doesn't escape, but Varys wasn't expecting Arya (important character). The entire sub plot at Harrenhall is a parallel to the tourney at Harrenhall with Gendry playing Robert, Jaqen playing Aegon, and Arya playing Lyanna. 

Gendry has black hair and likes playing with his war hammers, Jaqen has a chiseled Targaryen face and white hair (the red is for Elia, his dornish mother), and Arya is a wild stark Girl like Lyanna (Sansa is more Tully). 

Gendry wants Arya to stay away from Aegon, but Arya chooses him over Gendry (just like Lyanna). The scene under the heart tree where Aegon pledges to help Arya is reminiscent to when we assume Lyanna pledged herself to Rhaegar under the old gods. 

That scene is where the pivotal discussion happens. Arya asks him if he could kill a king, and he asks who, Joffrey? Then Arya leans in and says Jaqen H'ghar. 

His accent breaks and he is described as more worried than when he was in the burning cart.  He thinks he is found out, but quickly realizes that is not what she meant. 

Having been rejected by Ilyrio and Varys he changes his face so Varys' spies won't catch him and returns to the house of black and white. He asks Arya to come with him but chooses his duty (his words, not mine) over the girl (Rhaegar chose Lyanna over taking his fathers throne and the realm suffered, Aegon fixes the cycle by choosing duty over the girl). 

He returns and is rejected by the kindly man when asked for help reclaiming the throne and fulfilling his prophecy (Remember, Aegon was always said to be the prince who was promised). 

He takes the contract from Euron for a dragon egg (something the FM wouldn't usually do because Euron put no worth in the egg) and kills Balon.  

He takes the dragon egg to the citadel to find the book on dragons and how to crack a dragon egg. He is trying to repeat Summerhall, something the ghost of high heart was originally responsible for. The Ghost of High Heart sees darkness in Arya because the girl is tied to Aegon (the coin) and will inadvertently or deliberately help him redo the ritual.   

He wants a dragon to prove his birth claims over young griff.

Don't believe me? The book tells us in the prologue to AFFC. Pate's backstory is a metaphor for Aegons: 

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands. Twice had he believed himself ready. The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens. Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name. It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." - A Feast for Crows 

five plus thirteen is eighteen, the age Aegon should be by book four. Thirteen is the age limit for new disciples to the house of black and white (Arya had the coin so she is a special case). "remained as pink as the day he arrived" means Aegon was still a dragon despite being taught to be nobody. 

He believed himself ready to take his place as Aegon VI just like Pate believed himself ready twice. 

The first Archmaester is called Vaellyn. Va is for Varys, and lly is for Ilyrio. 

Vinegar is bitter like the taste of rejection, he was rejected by Varys and Ilyrio, the men he thought would help him.  

The he went to the kindly man in the house of black and white (after harrenhall). Ebrose is described as "kindly old" with a "soft voice". His "sighs" are how he shows disappointment with Arya when she embraces her own identity. These sighs were given to Aegon for clinging to his. 

The Waif is Ashara Dayne, she survived and joined the house of black and white, while Umma has dornish traits like Wylla. 

Read the waifs backstory where she is telling half lies and half truths. Now read her story as if the first person is changing line to line. At times she is describing Aegon, at times she is describing Ashara. Whenever she is about to reveal something to Arya the kindly man interrupts. 

 A combination of the waif telling her who Jaqen is and Justin Massey talking about fArya will motivate Arya to return to westeros. 

GRRM was clever by hiding Aegon behind a few different names: Azor Ahai, the Prince of was promised, and the Valonqar. 

 

If you read Maggy's prophecy again, the Valonqar and the one younger and more beautiful are the same person. Rhaegar is the only person Cersei describes as beautiful (the man she thinks she is going to marry) and Aegon VI, his son, is a younger more beautiful version of him (Jaqen is also described as beautiful). 

 The Valonqar and the one younger and more beautiful take everything from Cersei, so lets go through them. 

Right now she has lost Joffrey and Tywin. 

Lets start with Tywin, it looks like Oberyn poisoned him with widow's blood.  

But there is someone who ties the two together, Sarella is where the alchemist is, and Oberyn was traveling around Essos. 

He crossed paths with Aegon and made up a plan to kill Tywin, presumably Aegon gave him the widows blood.  

Oberyn kept this plan from Doran because he new Doran had other plans for Tywin (wanting to take everything from him) , and Oberyn is more rash so making this plan to kill Tywin with Elia's son fits his MO 

He is not a person to keep secrets like Varys or Baelish, so he is a liability to GRRM. 

He knows too much and too soon, which is why he dies. He was planning on taking Tyrion back to Dorne where he would have spilled the beans. 

Sarella could know but besides that I think he took that secret to the grave. 

Joffrey is where we hit the hard part. It looks like Olenna. 

But wait, GRRM has this to say in an interview back in 2014: (paraphrasing) 'observant readers should think its Olenna, but I have more to reveal about that in later books'. 

I think Aegon worked with Olenna and Oberyn without either one knowing they had a mutual acquaintance. 

 

Her is an extra tidbit for you. GRRM always has his work compared to Tolkien, so he his a reference.  

The Quill and Tankard is a tavern like the Prancing Pony. 

In both book series their is a hooded man in the corner of a tavern going by a false name watching our POV characters who is also a secret prince (next in line to be king). 

Strider is Aragorn II, and the alchemist is Aegon VI. 

   

2 minutes ago, Orm said:

Well Stan the man does in fact has Valyrian blood....

True, Baratheon's are half targaryen. 

I'll give this theory an upvote, but I still stick with my own. 

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I'll give this theory an upvote, but I still stick with my own. 

Well, I think Stannis simply gets disqualified because I don't think he's gonna ever meet Cersei (unless he turns out to be the Night king) and the fact that he isn't actually younger then Cersei....

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25 minutes ago, Orm said:

Well, I think Stannis simply gets disqualified because I don't think he's gonna ever meet Cersei (unless he turns out to be the Night king) and the fact that he isn't actually younger then Cersei....

It would mean the YAMB is different from the Valonqar, which I don't buy. 

But stannis is a younger brother.

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8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

"His hands" is not gender neutral.  

I'll grant you Stannis is intresting because he is "the younger brother", but the translation into Valyrian suggests someone with Valyrian blood.  

The only person known as the younger brother with the blood of old Valyria is Aegon VI. 

He also fits the younger and more beautiful person because Cersei describes Rhaegar as the most beautiful person in the world, and Aegon VI is a younger version of Rheagar.

 

Why even bother to speak in Valyrian for brother?  Maggie was not considered a person of high social rank.  Do the lowborn commonly throw around Valyrian words?  I have to agree on Aegon being the possibility here.  

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11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I wrote about it here on a different thread: 

No, YG is a blackfyre like Varys. 

However Varys did switch the babies and stowed away Aegon VI to Pentos, that was how his cloths were in the box Ilyrio gave Duck. YG didn't recognize it because he wasn't the real Aegon.

Ashara Dayne who was Elia's lady in waiting had her baby switched at the start of the war. When Ned arrives at starfall he is first with word of KL, and tells her what happened to 'Aegon'. Ashara realizes what she has done and jumps into the water, but survives. 

When Aegon was thirteen he was sent to the house of black and white at 13 (the age requirment) since Ilyrio and Varys thought that would force him to give up his claim.  

This is why Dany and Viserys are homeless for some thirteen years or less, because Aegon (and YG, Ilyrio's son) are occupying the mansion in Pentos. 

Once Aegon is sent of to the house of black and white and YG is sent off with Connington they moved in Daenerys and Viserys. 

Aegon ditches the FM after a while and follows Ilyrio to KL (first book), asking for the dragon eggs probably, and Rugen (varys) has him locked up in the black cells hoping that him taking the black would again force him to lose all claims to the throne. 

He told Yoren to keep him locked up so he doesn't escape, but Varys wasn't expecting Arya (important character). The entire sub plot at Harrenhall is a parallel to the tourney at Harrenhall with Gendry playing Robert, Jaqen playing Aegon, and Arya playing Lyanna. 

Gendry has black hair and likes playing with his war hammers, Jaqen has a chiseled Targaryen face and white hair (the red is for Elia, his dornish mother), and Arya is a wild stark Girl like Lyanna (Sansa is more Tully). 

Gendry wants Arya to stay away from Aegon, but Arya chooses him over Gendry (just like Lyanna). The scene under the heart tree where Aegon pledges to help Arya is reminiscent to when we assume Lyanna pledged herself to Rhaegar under the old gods. 

That scene is where the pivotal discussion happens. Arya asks him if he could kill a king, and he asks who, Joffrey? Then Arya leans in and says Jaqen H'ghar. 

His accent breaks and he is described as more worried than when he was in the burning cart.  He thinks he is found out, but quickly realizes that is not what she meant. 

Having been rejected by Ilyrio and Varys he changes his face so Varys' spies won't catch him and returns to the house of black and white. He asks Arya to come with him but chooses his duty (his words, not mine) over the girl (Rhaegar chose Lyanna over taking his fathers throne and the realm suffered, Aegon fixes the cycle by choosing duty over the girl). 

He returns and is rejected by the kindly man when asked for help reclaiming the throne and fulfilling his prophecy (Remember, Aegon was always said to be the prince who was promised). 

He takes the contract from Euron for a dragon egg (something the FM wouldn't usually do because Euron put no worth in the egg) and kills Balon.  

He takes the dragon egg to the citadel to find the book on dragons and how to crack a dragon egg. He is trying to repeat Summerhall, something the ghost of high heart was originally responsible for. The Ghost of High Heart sees darkness in Arya because the girl is tied to Aegon (the coin) and will inadvertently or deliberately help him redo the ritual.   

He wants a dragon to prove his birth claims over young griff.

Don't believe me? The book tells us in the prologue to AFFC. Pate's backstory is a metaphor for Aegons: 

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands. Twice had he believed himself ready. The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens. Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name. It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." - A Feast for Crows 

five plus thirteen is eighteen, the age Aegon should be by book four. Thirteen is the age limit for new disciples to the house of black and white (Arya had the coin so she is a special case). "remained as pink as the day he arrived" means Aegon was still a dragon despite being taught to be nobody. 

He believed himself ready to take his place as Aegon VI just like Pate believed himself ready twice. 

The first Archmaester is called Vaellyn. Va is for Varys, and lly is for Ilyrio. 

Vinegar is bitter like the taste of rejection, he was rejected by Varys and Ilyrio, the men he thought would help him.  

The he went to the kindly man in the house of black and white (after harrenhall). Ebrose is described as "kindly old" with a "soft voice". His "sighs" are how he shows disappointment with Arya when she embraces her own identity. These sighs were given to Aegon for clinging to his. 

The Waif is Ashara Dayne, she survived and joined the house of black and white, while Umma has dornish traits like Wylla. 

Read the waifs backstory where she is telling half lies and half truths. Now read her story as if the first person is changing line to line. At times she is describing Aegon, at times she is describing Ashara. Whenever she is about to reveal something to Arya the kindly man interrupts. 

 A combination of the waif telling her who Jaqen is and Justin Massey talking about fArya will motivate Arya to return to westeros. 

GRRM was clever by hiding Aegon behind a few different names: Azor Ahai, the Prince of was promised, and the Valonqar. 

 

If you read Maggy's prophecy again, the Valonqar and the one younger and more beautiful are the same person. Rhaegar is the only person Cersei describes as beautiful (the man she thinks she is going to marry) and Aegon VI, his son, is a younger more beautiful version of him (Jaqen is also described as beautiful). 

 The Valonqar and the one younger and more beautiful take everything from Cersei, so lets go through them. 

Right now she has lost Joffrey and Tywin. 

Lets start with Tywin, it looks like Oberyn poisoned him with widow's blood.  

But there is someone who ties the two together, Sarella is where the alchemist is, and Oberyn was traveling around Essos. 

He crossed paths with Aegon and made up a plan to kill Tywin, presumably Aegon gave him the widows blood.  

Oberyn kept this plan from Doran because he new Doran had other plans for Tywin (wanting to take everything from him) , and Oberyn is more rash so making this plan to kill Tywin with Elia's son fits his MO 

He is not a person to keep secrets like Varys or Baelish, so he is a liability to GRRM. 

He knows too much and too soon, which is why he dies. He was planning on taking Tyrion back to Dorne where he would have spilled the beans. 

Sarella could know but besides that I think he took that secret to the grave. 

Joffrey is where we hit the hard part. It looks like Olenna. 

But wait, GRRM has this to say in an interview back in 2014: (paraphrasing) 'observant readers should think its Olenna, but I have more to reveal about that in later books'. 

I think Aegon worked with Olenna and Oberyn without either one knowing they had a mutual acquaintance. 

Meh idk YG might be the real deal though.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Meh idk YG might be the real deal though.

Impossible, his age doesn't match up. 

Tyrion sees him as anywhere between 15-16 years old. Aegon should be an 18 year old by then. 

This is during the puberty period when even two/three years makes a huge difference. 

Edited by butterweedstrover

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Sansa is possible but I have a hard time believing the valonquar is Stannis.  Stan will not make it back to the south. 
 

Arrianne and Young Griff/Aegon is another pair of antagonists for Cersei.  Then there is another pair of possible enemies, Daenerys and Tyrion.  
 

 

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'Worst is first' Jamie's the Volanqar if anyone is.  Honestly though, if her death is anything like her life, Cercei is going to be responsible for her own undoing.  She doesn't need to be betrayed by some family member to get her just desserts and she's pre-emptively betrayed them all first anyway.

btw. Does anyone living other than Cercei know the prophesy, did she tell Jamie about it? 

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On 8/30/2020 at 8:13 PM, butterweedstrover said:

Impossible, his age doesn't match up. 

Tyrion sees him as anywhere between 15-16 years old. Aegon should be an 18 year old by then. 

This is during the puberty period when even two/three years makes a huge difference. 

But the back of the book (a dance of the dragons) says he’s 18 years old though. I mean in the index it says this.

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