Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy. I'm more curious about the image of a beautiful, naked woman being sexually ravished by four dwarfs who apparently resemble the person who served Dany shade of the evening before she walked into the house. My question is whether that's meant to be a bit of random gratuity on GRRM's part, or whether it's a metaphor for something. I can't quite recall how the vision is described in ACOK, and I don't have a copy of the book. Depending on how exactly it's described, I might draw a link to either Cersei Lannister's later obsession with dwarves, or a foreshadowing that Dany's relationship with Tyrion is not going to be a good one for her. Or is that over-reaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 The naked woman represents the realms of men being torn apart by humans being humans. ETA: I think there might be an interview or SSM out there somewhere about this? Also, that’s one interpretation, I’ve seen others over the years, including some serious crack pottery, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U. B. Cool Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 29 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy. I'm more curious about the image of a beautiful, naked woman being sexually ravished by four dwarfs who apparently resemble the person who served Dany shade of the evening before she walked into the house. My question is whether that's meant to be a bit of random gratuity on GRRM's part, or whether it's a metaphor for something. I can't quite recall how the vision is described in ACOK, and I don't have a copy of the book. Depending on how exactly it's described, I might draw a link to either Cersei Lannister's later obsession with dwarves, or a foreshadowing that Dany's relationship with Tyrion is not going to be a good one for her. Or is that over-reaching? Possibly it is Cersei but not likely. The two queens are not likely to meet. But it is either a representation of Westeros being raped by small, petty men like Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Balon Greyjoy, and Renly Baratheon. It may also be the future of Sansa Stark, raped or used by small men like Littlefinger, Joffrey, Harry, and Tyrion. Although Sansa is probably not important enough to appear in an apparently important vision of what was, what may, and what could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy. I'm more curious about the image of a beautiful, naked woman being sexually ravished by four dwarfs who apparently resemble the person who served Dany shade of the evening before she walked into the house. My question is whether that's meant to be a bit of random gratuity on GRRM's part, or whether it's a metaphor for something. I can't quite recall how the vision is described in ACOK, and I don't have a copy of the book. Depending on how exactly it's described, I might draw a link to either Cersei Lannister's later obsession with dwarves, or a foreshadowing that Dany's relationship with Tyrion is not going to be a good one for her. Or is that over-reaching? You can always try to search for the quote on "a search of a ice and fire" Quote In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing. (aCoK, Dany IV) As others mentioned already, the common interpretation of this scene is that it's a symbolical representation of Westeros being ravaged by the war of 5 kings at that time. The issue is that there aren't 5 little men, but 4. On the other hand, while the 5 kings were Robb, Renly, Stannis, Joffrey and Balon (5), by the time Dany has this vision Renly was already dead and only 4 kings were fighting at the time. An alternative interpretation I remember and I consider possibly valid is how it foreshadows or warns what is about to happen to Dany towards the end of the chapter - four undying trying to ravage Dany herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 I always figured the woman was Westeros being violated by the four kings. Joffrey, Stannis, Robb and Balon. Renly was already dead by the time she had that vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Westeros = ravaged women has always made the most sense to me. 7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: Don't worry, I'm not trying to speculate on the identity of the blue-eyed king or the cloth dragon, I know full well that they represent Edmure Tully and the ghost of Aegon the Unworthy. I know you said you aren’t here to speculate on this, but I’m curious. How did you come up with the Edmure and Aegon interpretation? I’ve never heard of either one of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Foot_Of_The_King said: Westeros = ravaged women has always made the most sense to me. I know you said you aren’t here to speculate on this, but I’m curious. How did you come up with the Edmure and Aegon interpretation? I’ve never heard of either one of these. I thought he was being cheeky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 4 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said: I know you said you aren’t here to speculate on this, but I’m curious. How did you come up with the Edmure and Aegon interpretation? I’ve never heard of either one of these. I was just trolling, don't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: I always figured the woman was Westeros being violated by the four kings. Joffrey, Stannis, Robb and Balon. Renly was already dead by the time she had that vision. The vision was being shown in mostly reverse chronological order. This naked lady with the dwarves came at the beginning. So it has to be the present rather than the past. It cannot be too far into the future though. Yes, to Joff, Stannis, Robb, and Balon. It fits with the vision of Westeros told by King Viserys, the Third. The most beautiful land of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Lusty bitey dwarves appear again in The Forsaken, TWOW: Spoiler Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other I guess them representing warring lords works for both, but I dunno... it always felt too roundabout to me. In any case, the dwarves have something to do with the shade-of-the-evening drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Those four little dwarfs are Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon. Robb isn't there, because, first of all, he didn't ravaged Westeros, like the other four did for the power (he participated in the War of the Five Kings to avenge his father, not to get power or to become a King), and second - he was in the next room, at the feast of corpses, with the wolf's head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Might be TWOT5Ks, might be yet to happen. As with the vision that is assumed to be the red wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 What was that about Aegon the unworthy? Why'd they show him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: What was that about Aegon the unworthy? Why'd they show him? It’s not him, the poster was only joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Megorova said: Those four little dwarfs are Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon. Robb isn't there, because, first of all, he didn't ravaged Westeros, like the other four did for the power (he participated in the War of the Five Kings to avenge his father, not to get power or to become a King), and second - he was in the next room, at the feast of corpses, with the wolf's head. Robb rebelled and is equally responsible for the war. He was one of the little men in that vision. He was one of the violators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 17 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: I was just trolling, don't worry. 13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: It’s not him, the poster was only joking. That’s what I thought at first. I was scared to say “you have to be joking right?” in case you weren’t. Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shi Qiang Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 On 8/30/2020 at 7:07 PM, U. B. Cool said: Possibly it is Cersei but not likely. The two queens are not likely to meet. But it is either a representation of Westeros being raped by small, petty men like Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Balon Greyjoy, and Renly Baratheon. It may also be the future of Sansa Stark, raped or used by small men like Littlefinger, Joffrey, Harry, and Tyrion. Although Sansa is probably not important enough to appear in an apparently important vision of what was, what may, and what could be. It is a woman unknown to Daenerys. But a real woman she was. These little guys are not seen in Westeros. The person is important to the story. Littlefinger and Sansa will have to escape to Braavos if his plans go awry. Sansa is that naked woman in the near future. Cersei, Arianne, Margaery, and Val are not coming to Essos. The woman has to be Sansa or Gillie. Gillie is on her way to the Bay with Marwyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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