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Jon’s song of Ice and Fire if R+L doesn’t equal J.


makaerystheunbidden

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First post so if you could find it in your conflicted hearts to cut me some slack, I’d appreciate it. Let’s just say R+L doesn’t equal J. Jon’s story is still obviously very significant to the plot and very possible for him to still have his song of Ice and Fire. I think it depends a lot on his presumed resurrection. 

I’ve heard several theories on Jon’s resurrection happening via the Ice magic of the Other’s or the Fire magic of R’hllor (via Melisandre), but what if he ends up resurrected by both Fire and Ice magic? It always bothered me thinking of Jon being resurrected as an ice wight or a fire wight even if he still is in control of his consciousness by warging into Ghost. I do however, find it very interesting to think of the possibilities of Jon being resurrected by both magics with the addition of being in control of his consciousness because of warging into Ghost while he was stabbed and back into his body when resurrected.

I don’t have any experience in theory building and this is merely an idea, but my line of thinking starts with Jon warging into Ghost during the Mutiny at CB and his body being protected and preserved most likely by the Ice Cells at CB.

Mel won’t be able to immediately resurrect Jon. I’m sure she is very aware of the possibility of resurrection through the power of R’hllor, but to my knowledge has never done so. So she might fail initially, or might be waiting for the “correct” interpretation of her flame readings before doing so.

While Melisandre fails/waits to resurrect Jon (or whatever barrier might present itself to that happening), this will allow the Others time to make it further South and have an influence on resurrecting Jon. It’s obvious the Other’s know much more than we might be lead to believe (“The Other halted”).

If these two resurrections were to unknowingly occur at the same time (or even knowingly for all it matters) and Jon wargs back into his body after witnessing it rise, could this be Jon’s “song of ice and fire”? And if so, what could a resurrection with the mixing of these two powerful Magic’s mean for Jon who will be, presumably, in control of his consciousness and no thrall to R’hllor or the Great Other? Or perhaps maybe even becoming the champion for both?

TL;DR: Refer to paragraphs in bold

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Hi, and welcome! :cheers:

The idea you propose has been brought up before over the years. There are basically 5 camps: 

1. Jon is dead dead.

2. Jon is wounded and won’t die die.

3. Jon will be brought back as an ice wight.

4. Jon will be brought back as a fire wight. 

5. Jon will be brought back by a combo of ice and fire resurrection magic.

Personally, my money is on #2, for several reasons that I won’t have time to go into right now. But I suppose that’s not what you’re most interested in anyways. :)

If memory serves, and lately it doesn’t and should be sacked, @Alexis-something-Rose talked about the ice+fire magic double-whammy fairly recently. If so, perhaps she can contribute better than I have. 

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Welcome to the board!

Well from a narrative standpoint, Jon's story would almost have to go on in some form regardless of his parentage. Otherwise that's a lot of buildup to nothing. Beyond that, I'm just not sure what form Jon's resurrection will take. I've half wondered if Melisandre may be required to sacrifice herself similarly to how Beric did to resurrect Catelyn. Even if he doesn't, it does lead to the question of how much of "Jon" will be left if he's resurrected. 

Melisandre's warning of keep your direwolf close seems oddly specific in warning someone of danger. Not keep your guards alert, not keep your sword ready, but the direwolf. So that could foreshadow the direwolf warging, even if Melisandre herself is unaware of it directly. 

Really there's just too many directions this could go with a deus ex machina of sorts that would be required for his resurrection. But yeah, hard to stop us from speculating all the same.

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2 hours ago, makaerystheunbidden said:

First post so if you could find it in your conflicted hearts to cut me some slack, I’d appreciate it. Let’s just say R+L doesn’t equal J. Jon’s story is still obviously very significant to the plot and very possible for him to still have his song of Ice and Fire. I think it depends a lot on his presumed resurrection. 

I’ve heard several theories on Jon’s resurrection happening via the Ice magic of the Other’s or the Fire magic of R’hllor (via Melisandre), but what if he ends up resurrected by both Fire and Ice magic? It always bothered me thinking of Jon being resurrected as an ice wight or a fire wight even if he still is in control of his consciousness by warging into Ghost. I do however, find it very interesting to think of the possibilities of Jon being resurrected by both magics with the addition of being in control of his consciousness because of warging into Ghost while he was stabbed and back into his body when resurrected.

I don’t have any experience in theory building and this is merely an idea, but my line of thinking starts with Jon warging into Ghost during the Mutiny at CB and his body being protected and preserved most likely by the Ice Cells at CB.

Mel won’t be able to immediately resurrect Jon. I’m sure she is very aware of the possibility of resurrection through the power of R’hllor, but to my knowledge has never done so. So she might fail initially, or might be waiting for the “correct” interpretation of her flame readings before doing so.

While Melisandre fails/waits to resurrect Jon (or whatever barrier might present itself to that happening), this will allow the Others time to make it further South and have an influence on resurrecting Jon. It’s obvious the Other’s know much more than we might be lead to believe (“The Other halted”).

If these two resurrections were to unknowingly occur at the same time (or even knowingly for all it matters) and Jon wargs back into his body after witnessing it rise, could this be Jon’s “song of ice and fire”? And if so, what could a resurrection with the mixing of these two powerful Magic’s mean for Jon who will be, presumably, in control of his consciousness and no thrall to R’hllor or the Great Other? Or perhaps maybe even becoming the champion for both?

TL;DR: Refer to paragraphs in bold

Here is where I stand: 

I want him to stay dead but he is probably coming back. Though since GRRM criticized Gandalf the white so hopefully he'll be a zombie.  

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Hi there and welcome! 

I'm also in camp #2 as per @kissdbyfire thoughtful explanation, but I do love to indulge in some theory-talking, so there's this detail you brought up I'd like to be picky about, if you'll allow it. 

13 hours ago, makaerystheunbidden said:

I’m sure she is very aware of the possibility of resurrection through the power of R’hllor, but to my knowledge has never done so.

I'm not so sure about that. Not at all. 

Thoros is the only red priest we've heard could bring someone back to life, and he was very surprised when it happened:

Storm, Arya VII:

"Could you bring back a man without a head?" Arya asked. "Just the once, not six times. Could you?"

"I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

Now, Thoros attributes Beric's ressurection to R'hllor, that's quite clear. But I feel like we have to question if he's right about that... Thoros is a pink priest, not a red one. The fact that his color is fading is pointed out several times through the books, and I believe it is a symbol of his distancing himself from the Red God. I'll let the northmen do the talking.

Dance, The Sacrifice

"What has your southron god to do with snow?" demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. "This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease."

"Aye," said Big Bucket Wull. "Red Rahloo means nothing here. You will only make the old gods angry. They are watching from their island."

Now you could argue that this is only true in the north (or you could argue that Flint and Wull are simply wrong, but then there is nothing for us to argue about. I think they do have something right). In the case that they are right about the north, I'd argue it also applies to the riverlands, or at least parts of it.

Storm, Arya VIII

"She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother."

"Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." 

You might think, what has this to do with Beric? Well, this is how the undead lord is introduced to us:

Storm, Arya VI

A huge firepit had been dug in the center of the earthen floor, and its flames rose swirling and crackling toward the smoke-stained ceiling. The walls were equal parts stone and soil, with huge white roots twisting through them like a thousand slow pale snakes. People were emerging from between those roots as she watched; edging out from the shadows for a look at the captives, stepping from the mouths of pitch-black tunnels, popping out of crannies and crevices on all sides. In one place on the far side of the fire, the roots formed a kind of stairway up to a hollow in the earth where a man sat almost lost in the tangle of weirwood. 

So Beric is in a weirwood throne ruling over the Hollow Hill, where earth swallows the fire. I'd argue maybe it wasn't the power of Red Rahloo that brought back our Lord of Blackhaven, but something else. Remember they were on a riverbank "that first time" the Mountain slayed Beric Dondarrion - just like the instance when Catelyn Tully was brought back to 'life'. And it was Beric to give her the kiss, for Thoros refused. Beric is not a priest, we have no reason to think he knows any specific prayers or anything like that... 

Sorry, but all of this was just to argue that I don't think Melissandre thinks herself capable of ressurecting anyone, really. I don't think this is a thing often atributed to R'hllor, or any god in asoiaf for that matter.

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28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Lady Dacey, you’ve :ninja:’d me for the second time today! I was about to bring this up as well. :D

I could say great minds think alike, but really that'd be too presumptous. I think it's more on the lines of "people who read carefully and stick to the text come to similar conclusions", anyway ;)

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I don't know that I would call what Thoros did to Beric a resurrection. The only true and genuine resurrection that we saw, imo, is Dany's dragons. The eggs became stone and the dragons were dead inside, and they came out of the pyre as living breathing things. This is a true resurrection because only death can pay for life. And it's not just any death at that. I'd go as far as to say that the events of Summerhall culminated in a resurrection as well.

Beric and the wights created by the Others are straight up necromancy. No lives were traded in for theirs. There was no ritual, or great sacrifice involved there. But Melisandre does talk about these very things when she is urging Stannis to sacrifice Edric Storm and I think she was a far better student than Thoros ever was as far as I can tell.

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15 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Here is where I stand: 

I want him to stay dead but he is probably coming back. Though since GRRM criticized Gandalf the white so hopefully he'll be a zombie.  

Gandalf's a literal angel, he runs on a different set of rules.

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9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know that I would call what Thoros did to Beric a resurrection. The only true and genuine resurrection that we saw, imo, is Dany's dragons. The eggs became stone and the dragons were dead inside, and they came out of the pyre as living breathing things. This is a true resurrection because only death can pay for life. And it's not just any death at that. I'd go as far as to say that the events of Summerhall culminated in a resurrection as well.

Beric and the wights created by the Others are straight up necromancy. No lives were traded in for theirs. There was no ritual, or great sacrifice involved there. But Melisandre does talk about these very things when she is urging Stannis to sacrifice Edric Storm and I think she was a far better student than Thoros ever was as far as I can tell.

So much to ask of so many in this topic--where do you categorize LSH?  Beric gave his sort of life for her sort of life, right? 

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On 8/31/2020 at 4:47 PM, makaerystheunbidden said:

First post so if you could find it in your conflicted hearts to cut me some slack, I’d appreciate it. Let’s just say R+L doesn’t equal J. Jon’s story is still obviously very significant to the plot and very possible for him to still have his song of Ice and Fire. I think it depends a lot on his presumed resurrection. 

I’ve heard several theories on Jon’s resurrection happening via the Ice magic of the Other’s or the Fire magic of R’hllor (via Melisandre), but what if he ends up resurrected by both Fire and Ice magic? It always bothered me thinking of Jon being resurrected as an ice wight or a fire wight even if he still is in control of his consciousness by warging into Ghost. I do however, find it very interesting to think of the possibilities of Jon being resurrected by both magics with the addition of being in control of his consciousness because of warging into Ghost while he was stabbed and back into his body when resurrected.

I don’t have any experience in theory building and this is merely an idea, but my line of thinking starts with Jon warging into Ghost during the Mutiny at CB and his body being protected and preserved most likely by the Ice Cells at CB.

Mel won’t be able to immediately resurrect Jon. I’m sure she is very aware of the possibility of resurrection through the power of R’hllor, but to my knowledge has never done so. So she might fail initially, or might be waiting for the “correct” interpretation of her flame readings before doing so.

While Melisandre fails/waits to resurrect Jon (or whatever barrier might present itself to that happening), this will allow the Others time to make it further South and have an influence on resurrecting Jon. It’s obvious the Other’s know much more than we might be lead to believe (“The Other halted”).

If these two resurrections were to unknowingly occur at the same time (or even knowingly for all it matters) and Jon wargs back into his body after witnessing it rise, could this be Jon’s “song of ice and fire”? And if so, what could a resurrection with the mixing of these two powerful Magic’s mean for Jon who will be, presumably, in control of his consciousness and no thrall to R’hllor or the Great Other? Or perhaps maybe even becoming the champion for both?

TL;DR: Refer to paragraphs in bold

Welcome @makaerystheunbidden, don't be daunted.   There are so many different topics and ideas about Jon's immediate fate you could write a book on those ideas alone.   That said I am not great working the quote search so I hope you will allow me a small paraphrase that my esteemed colleagues will no doubt improve upon.  "You think Jon's dead, do you?"  That's very close to what GRRM himself had to say on the matter.   

The single most resonant idea that I have happened upon on this matter is Jon's nature changing as a result of this grave injury, if not death.  Someone above mentioned Melisandre's warning to Jon to keep his wolf close and the idea of Jon being suspended in if not thrust into Ghost's consciousness for a while seems to be the clue for me, as I do think Jon is very much alive.  Look at all the fantastic Summer narratives.  This is some great writing from an animal's point of view!   Ghost has no voice and Jon will share this condition for a while.  He will rely on Ghost precisely the way Bran relies on Summer and to a lesser degree, Arya relies on Nymeria.   In short, this unconsciousness of Jon's is likely to awaken Jon's warg abilities.  I'm hoping for conversations with Ghost, maybe a few directed attacks through Ghost and some thing (no clue as to what) that wakes Jon.  In short, I'm not seeing a fire or ice wight, just another Stark/Direwolf bond that cements Jon's Ice side.   Sorry, I'm sure that's disappointing to many.  Take Heart--nasty old Varamyr himself made yet another connection between Direwolves and Kings.  This should be the end of Jon's search for identity so GRRM can totally screw with him in making sure some big mouth tells him who his daddy really was.   Poor Jon.  

I'm thinking once this warg thing is conscious and embraced, our brooding bastard will be fully equipped to deal with all this fire stuff and thank the gods old and new, it will not take 5 books for him to learn and master the other side.   For all it's worth, if this is correct, that would make Melisandre at the Wall one of the biggest red herrings in the series.   I love that.  

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49 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

So much to ask of so many in this topic--where do you categorize LSH?  Beric gave his sort of life for her sort of life, right? 

She's a wight's wight? Beric is a fire wight, so he passed on his fire wight "life" to her. There's a trade of sorts, that's true, but LSH is more of the same. Beric didn't eat, didn't drink, didn't sleep. LSH never sleeps, we are told as much, so she probably doesn't eat or drink either.

I think that Beric, LSH and Coldhands are very similar types of wights, but the wights raised by the Others are very different from them, not just in appearance (the blue eyes), but also in behavior and agency.

I don't think Jon coming back as some sort of wight is going to happen. There is too much going on at the Wall and conditions have been created for that not to happen. Mel has foreseen his stabbing. I think she has been preparing for the next steps in case it happened. And that's not to mention all the foreshadowing, including foreshadowing that came out from Jon himself before his stabbing.

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Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

She's a wight's wight? Beric is a fire wight, so he passed on his dead life to her. There's an trade of sorts, that's true, but LSH is more of the same. Beric didn't eat, didn't drink, didn't sleep. LSH never sleeps, we are told as much, so she probably doesn't eat or drink either.

I think that Beric, LSH and Coldhands are very similar types of wights, but the wights raised by the Others are very different from them, not just in appearance (the blue eyes), but also in behavior and agency.

I don't think Jon coming back as some sort of wight is going to happen. There is too much going on at the Wall and conditions have been created for that not to happen. Mel has foreseen his stabbing. I think she has been preparing for the next steps in case it happened. And that's not to mention all the foreshadowing, including foreshadowing that came out from Jon himself before his stabbing.

I swear absolutely no one on Earth could answer like that but a true ASOIAF fan.   Brilliant!  

I think I honed in on your death pays for life in real resurrection idea.   In that Beric is already dead and as you so eloquently state, passed on his dead life to her, I wanted to be straight on that.   This gets me thinking that these wights we see in story are a relatively "new thing" perhaps since the comet or "magic grew stronger" or dragons?  Necromancy was a thing the Barrows Kings appeared to be able to do, at least in my understanding, so the old powers are perhaps resurfacing.  I don't see a "wight" life for Jon, either.  Can't see anyone except the BwB getting behind a living dead king so JonWight is a non-starter for me, too.  

Now that's an interesting take on Mel and as good a prediction as any.   I am really sort of hoping Jon just wakes up, but I reckon the waking will have to have an association with the Red Priestess so she can prattle on about the New Azor Ahai Reborn.   Thanks, @Alexis-something-Rose, your words were instructive. 

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10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This gets me thinking that these wights we see in story are a relatively "new thing" perhaps since the comet or "magic grew stronger" or dragons?

Timeline wise, the attack on Castle Black by Othor and Jafer Flowers happens before the comet and before Dany's dragons. I'm pretty sure it's the same with Beric. And the Ghost of High Heart does call him the Lord of Corpses, which is pretty much what he is, alive, but not really alive.  

As for the rest, I'm writing up something that I will post at some point. I'm just trying to figure out what something to do with the ironborn blessing.

 

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7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Timeline wise, the attack on Castle Black by Othor and Jafer Flowers happens before the comet and before Dany's dragons. I'm pretty sure it's the same with Beric. And the Ghost of High Heart does call him the Lord of Corpses, which is pretty much what he is, alive, but not really alive.  

As for the rest, I'm writing up something that I will post at some point. I'm just trying to figure out what something to do with the ironborn blessing.

 

Excellent, looking forward to the discussion.

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On 9/2/2020 at 2:59 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The only true and genuine resurrection that we saw, imo, is Dany's dragons. The eggs became stone and the dragons were dead inside,

Were they?

Or was that just how it appeared to people who didn't have great expertise on the nature of dragon eggs?

Is there any reason that dragons eggs might not naturally appear to be stone if 'dormant'during a low-magic, no-dragons-around, period? 

13 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Timeline wise, the attack on Castle Black by Othor and Jafer Flowers happens before the comet and before Dany's dragons. I'm pretty sure it's the same with Beric. 

Which merely points to the dragons being a product of the resurgence of magic rather than the cause, no?

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On 8/31/2020 at 7:47 PM, makaerystheunbidden said:

First post so if you could find it in your conflicted hearts to cut me some slack, I’d appreciate it. Let’s just say R+L doesn’t equal J. Jon’s story is still obviously very significant to the plot and very possible for him to still have his song of Ice and Fire. I think it depends a lot on his presumed resurrection. 

I’ve heard several theories on Jon’s resurrection happening via the Ice magic of the Other’s or the Fire magic of R’hllor (via Melisandre), but what if he ends up resurrected by both Fire and Ice magic? It always bothered me thinking of Jon being resurrected as an ice wight or a fire wight even if he still is in control of his consciousness by warging into Ghost. I do however, find it very interesting to think of the possibilities of Jon being resurrected by both magics with the addition of being in control of his consciousness because of warging into Ghost while he was stabbed and back into his body when resurrected.

I don’t have any experience in theory building and this is merely an idea, but my line of thinking starts with Jon warging into Ghost during the Mutiny at CB and his body being protected and preserved most likely by the Ice Cells at CB.

Mel won’t be able to immediately resurrect Jon. I’m sure she is very aware of the possibility of resurrection through the power of R’hllor, but to my knowledge has never done so. So she might fail initially, or might be waiting for the “correct” interpretation of her flame readings before doing so.

While Melisandre fails/waits to resurrect Jon (or whatever barrier might present itself to that happening), this will allow the Others time to make it further South and have an influence on resurrecting Jon. It’s obvious the Other’s know much more than we might be lead to believe (“The Other halted”).

If these two resurrections were to unknowingly occur at the same time (or even knowingly for all it matters) and Jon wargs back into his body after witnessing it rise, could this be Jon’s “song of ice and fire”? And if so, what could a resurrection with the mixing of these two powerful Magic’s mean for Jon who will be, presumably, in control of his consciousness and no thrall to R’hllor or the Great Other? Or perhaps maybe even becoming the champion for both?

TL;DR: Refer to paragraphs in bold

That is an interesting scenario.  I myself believe in Jon becoming a walking Snowman.  An ice semi-wight.  The difference he has over the run of the mill wights is his warg ability.  His mind will stay alive inside Ghost while his body is animated by the white walkers.  I do not believe R'hllor will have any hand in Jon's resurrection.  His worry over Arya will lead him to use his skinchanging to control the wights and use them as he tried to use the wildlings.  To attack the Boltons to rescue his sister. He will lose control and the army of ice will start destroying everything in their path as they walk south.   Because Jon is willing to let the world freeze for his sister.

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