Waymar/Robar Royce should have married Sansa Stark

[James Steller]

Someone’s posting about little things we wish we could have changed. And I don’t think that this counts as a small change to the series, but I’m kind of surprised that Ned didn’t try to suggest Waymar stay in Winterfell and serve House Stark. Ned was talking about populating the Gift with new lordships to encourage more settlers. What would have been better than having a third son of House Royce get the chance to form his own cadet branch in the North? It’s not like they’re going to inherit anything in the Vale.
Plus it makes sense to wed Sansa to Waymar (or Robar, for that matter). The Royces have very close ties to the First Men, but they’re also a very knightly house, plus Sansa was gaga for Waymar when he was at Winterfell. I doubt she’d have been upset to marry Waymar or Robar, and I also doubt either of the Royce brothers would have been as bad a fiancé as Joffrey. She could have been safely engaged when Robert came north and so an engagement with Joffrey wouldn’t have happened. And even if the War of the Five Kings still happens, Waymar or Robar could have been valuable allies to Ned or Robb (we know they’re both very brave and militarily trained), plus that’s a tie to the Vale’s second strongest house.

[The Hoare]

Second sons are not fit for someone with Sansa's status. Besides, the gift does not belong to Winterfell, but to the Night's Watch. I suppose that if war broke out they would be forced to stay neutral

[James Steller]

7 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Second sons are not fit for someone with Sansa's status. Besides, the gift does not belong to Winterfell, but to the Night's Watch. I suppose that if war broke out they would be forced to stay neutral

There aren’t exactly a lot of great options for Sansa. And I can think of quite a few second sons who married above their station to either join another family or because they had prestige or competence in their corner. The Royces have both those things in buckets, plus Eddard has both personal and distant family ties to the Vale.

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, James Steller said:

There aren’t exactly a lot of great options for Sansa.

Sansa is the first daughter of Eddard Stark, who is in turn one of the most powerful  Great Lords in the land.

Joffrey Baratheon, Tommen Baratheon, Renly Baratheon, Wyllas Tyrell, Robert Arryn or Theon Greyjoy and Tywin's heir are the options for Sansa. Perhapsm there is the heir of Oldtown but stop counting from there, unless there wasa necessity of war, Sansa wasn't realistically going to fish outside that pool.

 

33 minutes ago, James Steller said:

And I can think of quite a few second sons who married above their station to either join another family or because they had prestige or competence in their corner. The Royces have both those things in buckets, plus Eddard has both personal and distant family ties to the Vale.

Which means that they might be a good fit for Arya, not for Sansa.

[James Steller]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sansa is the first daughter of Eddard Stark, who is in turn one of the most powerful  Great Lords in the land.

Joffrey Baratheon, Tommen Baratheon, Renly Baratheon, Wyllas Tyrell, Robert Arryn or Theon Greyjoy and Tywin's heir are the options for Sansa. Perhapsm there is the heir of Oldtown but stop counting from there, unless there wasa necessity of war, Sansa wasn't realistically going to fish outside that pool.

 

Which means that they might be a good fit for Arya, not for Sansa.

Not that I approve of the patriarchy, but Eddard has three sons. Sansa is fourth in line. Nobody would realistically expect her to become her father’s heir (before the war began, I mean). The Royces aren’t exactly House Frey, either. They’re an ancient house who used to be kings, and they’re still militarily the silver medal to House Arryn. The Royces are also noted warriors. Having even one of them on your side would be nothing except advantageous. Imagine Robb going south with Waymar or Robar on his military council, or fighting alongside him in battle.

[frenin]

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

Not that I approve of the patriarchy, but Eddard has three sons. Sansa is fourth in line. Nobody would realistically expect her to become her father’s heir (before the war began, I mean).

What?? Margaery is the fourth in line, yet she was being saved for royalty.  Ditto with Cersei. Sansa's is Eddard Stark's oldest daughter, as such is expected an extraordinary match for her. The Royces are not extraordinary. Let alone a 2nd or 3rd Royce.

 

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The Royces aren’t exactly House Frey, either. They’re an ancient house who used to be kings, and they’re still militarily the silver medal to House Arryn. The Royces are also noted warriors. Having even one of them on your side would be nothing except advantageous. Imagine Robb going south with Waymar or Robar on his military council, or fighting alongside him in battle.

If only there was another daughter of Eddard's that could fill the role... Truth be told, in peace times i very much doubt that Arya would marrying anything but a highlord anyway

[James Steller]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

What?? Margaery is the fourth in line, yet she was being saved for royalty.  Ditto with Cersei. Sansa's is Eddard Stark's oldest daughter, as such is expected an extraordinary match for her. The Royces are not extraordinary. Let alone a 2nd or 3rd Royce.

Eddard is not Mace or Tywin. Those men saw their daughters as nothing but bargaining chips to trade in for personal advancement, and they delude themselves that they’re doing it for their family. Eddard isn’t obsessed with power and prestige, he isn’t interested in using his kids as chess pieces in the game of power play. Robb is almost 15 in the first book and he isn’t even engaged. Eddard clearly wants to keep his kids close to home, and the idea of sending them off anywhere is distasteful to him. He only acquiesced to Sansa’s engagement because he couldn’t reject Robert’s offer for any number of reasons, plus Sansa is head over heels for Joffrey anyway. 
So yes, I believe Eddard would have been content to keep Sansa in the North, preferable as close to home as possible, and having her marry a second son would allow for that. 
 

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Eddard is not Mace or Tywin. Those men saw their daughters as nothing but bargaining chips to trade in for personal advancement, and they delude themselves that they’re doing it for their family. Eddard isn’t obsessed with power and prestige, he isn’t interested in using his kids as chess pieces in the game of power play.

Yet, Eddard send Arya to King's Landing to learn how to be a proper lady, so he can marry a great southern lord...

Ned is as any other lord, and Sansa does want to marry on her station.  So, Ned marrying her off to a Royce would mke her pretty unhappy anyway.

 

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Robb is almost 15 in the first book and he isn’t even engaged.

Apples and oranges, so is Edmure and Hoster is a rather shrewd man, so were Boremund Baratheon, so was Lymand Lannister...

 

 

14 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Eddard clearly wants to keep his kids close to home, and the idea of sending them off anywhere is distasteful to him. He only acquiesced to Sansa’s engagement because he couldn’t reject Robert’s offer for any number of reasons, plus Sansa is head over heels for Joffrey anyway. 

So, how that goes to sending her off to the Vale??

 

14 minutes ago, James Steller said:

So yes, I believe Eddard would have been content to keep Sansa in the North, preferable as close to home as possible, and having her marry a second son would allow for that. 

Ned?? Maybe, very dubious but meh, there is no way Cat or Sansa would've allowed that.  Nor Ned is an idiot.

[James Steller]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

So, how that goes to sending her off to the Vale??

I never said that. In my original post, I said Waymar or Robar would presumably marry Sansa and settle in the North. Admittedly I made an assumption about the Gift but I could have sworn that Ned wanted to populate the Gift with new lordships (he has a line where he talks to Bran about how he’ll one day serve his brother as a lord or knight, I can’t remember the details). 
But even if Sansa DID go to the Vale, Ned would presumably be okay with that too. He lived in the Vale for much of his life, that’s his home away from home. Actually, engaging her to Robert Arryn would have been a good option too if peace had prevailed (though AGOT Sansa would definitely not have been happy with Robert Arryn as her husband).

[frenin]

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

I never said that. In my original post, I said Waymar or Robar would presumably marry Sansa and settle in the North. Admittedly I made an assumption about the Gift but I could have sworn that Ned wanted to populate the Gift with new lordships (he has a line where he talks to Bran about how he’ll one day serve his brother as a lord or knight, I can’t remember the details). 

Yet Ned talks about  them learning the southern ways for something.

 

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

But even if Sansa DID go to the Vale, Ned would presumably be okay with that too. He lived in the Vale for much of his life, that’s his home away from home. Actually, engaging her to Robert Arryn would have been a good option too if peace had prevailed (though AGOT Sansa would definitely not have been happy with Robert Arryn as her husband).

Why isn't that far from his daughter??

Nor i believe that anyone would marry Robin given the chance.

[James Steller]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why isn't that far from his daughter??

Nor i believe that anyone would marry Robin given the chance.

I mean, I hadn’t considered the Vale before we started talking. My perspective isn’t set in stone, and you raised a good point. Sansa did want prestige, and Catelyn would have insisted to Ned that her girls needed to marry well and be proper ladies. Ned wouldn’t have disputed that, I’m sure, which is a shame because Arya could have gone to Bear Island and been happy as a clam, but that’s another story. 
Even if Waymar and Robar are ruled out, Ned might have married her to Yohn’s heir and she’d have been far better off in Runestone than King’s Landing. I guess my overall view has expanded, slightly, but either way, I’m saying that when Yohn Royce visited Winterfell, Ned could and should have made a betrothal to one of Yohn’s sons. With that taken care of, Sansa doesn’t go to King’s Landing (or if she does go, she’s an engaged young woman already), and Ned might not completely screw up everything after he figures out the truth behind Cersei’s kids.

[Angel Eyes]

40 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I never said that. In my original post, I said Waymar or Robar would presumably marry Sansa and settle in the North. Admittedly I made an assumption about the Gift but I could have sworn that Ned wanted to populate the Gift with new lordships (he has a line where he talks to Bran about how he’ll one day serve his brother as a lord or knight, I can’t remember the details). 
But even if Sansa DID go to the Vale, Ned would presumably be okay with that too. He lived in the Vale for much of his life, that’s his home away from home. Actually, engaging her to Robert Arryn would have been a good option too if peace had prevailed (though AGOT Sansa would definitely not have been happy with Robert Arryn as her husband).

The line is from AGOT, Bran I:

Quote

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

Sansa wasn't exactly thrilled with the idea of him as her husband in ASOS. It's compared with Cersei insisting on the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa.

[norwaywolf123]

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

Someone’s posting about little things we wish we could have changed. And I don’t think that this counts as a small change to the series, but I’m kind of surprised that Ned didn’t try to suggest Waymar stay in Winterfell and serve House Stark. Ned was talking about populating the Gift with new lordships to encourage more settlers. What would have been better than having a third son of House Royce get the chance to form his own cadet branch in the North? It’s not like they’re going to inherit anything in the Vale.
Plus it makes sense to wed Sansa to Waymar (or Robar, for that matter). The Royces have very close ties to the First Men, but they’re also a very knightly house, plus Sansa was gaga for Waymar when he was at Winterfell. I doubt she’d have been upset to marry Waymar or Robar, and I also doubt either of the Royce brothers would have been as bad a fiancé as Joffrey. She could have been safely engaged when Robert came north and so an engagement with Joffrey wouldn’t have happened. And even if the War of the Five Kings still happens, Waymar or Robar could have been valuable allies to Ned or Robb (we know they’re both very brave and militarily trained), plus that’s a tie to the Vale’s second strongest house.

How does this matter during the time of Eddard and Waymar? Over a millenium has passed since the Andal invasion. The House Royce probably has more in common with Houses Corbray and Arryn than with house Stark. House Royce probably has more familial ties with the "Andal" houses, more cultural ties with the "Andal" houses, etc, than it does with house Stark.

[norwaywolf123]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Sansa is the first daughter of Eddard Stark, who is in turn one of the most powerful  Great Lords in the land.

Joffrey Baratheon, Tommen Baratheon, Renly Baratheon, Wyllas Tyrell, Robert Arryn or Theon Greyjoy and Tywin's heir are the options for Sansa. Perhapsm there is the heir of Oldtown but stop counting from there, unless there wasa necessity of war, Sansa wasn't realistically going to fish outside that pool.

Which means that they might be a good fit for Arya, not for Sansa.

My impression is that most marriages prior to Robert's rebellion where within their respective region. Therefore Sansa is more likely to marry heir to northern house. Though Sansa having a mother from the South, would increase her chance to marry outside the North,

[Angel Eyes]

17 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

How does this matter during the time of Eddard and Waymar? Over a millenium has passed since the Andal invasion. The House Royce probably has more in common with Houses Corbray and Arryn than with house Stark. House Royce probably has more familial ties with the "Andal" houses, more cultural ties with the "Andal" houses, etc, than it does with house Stark.

The Starks also have a tie or two with the Stormlands; Ned Stark's great-aunt Branda married into House Rogers.

[James Steller]

2 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

How does this matter during the time of Eddard and Waymar? Over a millenium has passed since the Andal invasion. The House Royce probably has more in common with Houses Corbray and Arryn than with house Stark. House Royce probably has more familial ties with the "Andal" houses, more cultural ties with the "Andal" houses, etc, than it does with house Stark.

The fact that the Royces still consider the Nights Watch a worthwhile option should say something about how they differ from most southern houses.

To be honest, I wish GRRM had made more southern houses worship the old gods so it wasn’t just House Blackwood. And if any house south of the Neck would still worship in the godswood, I’d pick House Royce. They still wear bronze armour, they send their kids to the Nights Watch as volunteers, etc. It’s a shame that GRRM didn’t go whole hog and make them loyal to the old gods as another contrast to the rest of the south. 

[Lion of the West]

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The fact that the Royces still consider the Nights Watch a worthwhile option should say something about how they differ from most southern houses.

To be honest, I wish GRRM had made more southern houses worship the old gods so it wasn’t just House Blackwood. And if any house south of the Neck would still worship in the godswood, I’d pick House Royce. They still wear bronze armour, they send their kids to the Nights Watch as volunteers, etc. It’s a shame that GRRM didn’t go whole hog and make them loyal to the old gods as another contrast to the rest of the south. 

I think its rather excellent that he made them followers of the Seven. This shows that one religion don't have better adherents than another, or that honorable people are not drawn primarily to one religion or another, but that its a mixed bag with all of them.

[James Steller]

45 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

I think its rather excellent that he made them followers of the Seven. This shows that one religion don't have better adherents than another, or that honorable people are not drawn primarily to one religion or another, but that its a mixed bag with all of them.

I see your point, and I agree with it: it should not be a black and white thing. But the part which I disagree about is the way you phrased it. You made it sound like House Royce is the only honourable Andal family. There’s lots of houses who are honourable and who follow the Seven. Off the top of my head, there are Houses Marbrand, Tully, Piper, Manderly, Tarth, Caron, Selmy, Brax, Crakehall. Most of the people in those houses have been motivated by noble intentions and loyalty to their oaths and honour.

It’s not like the Andals are all portrayed as bad and the First Men as good. Look at the Boltons, Skaggosi, Free folk, Ryswells, and Dustins. They are all portrayed as savage and/or untrustworthy. Even the Starks are descended from men who hung entrails in trees or who sacrificed people to the weirwoods. 

If anything, the divide between north and south seems a bit too simple. GRRM talks about how there are many old god worshippers south of the Neck (enough to justify the existence of godswoods in almost every castle). But out of all the noble houses south of the Neck, only the Blackwoods worship the old gods? There should have been a few more than just one. Maybe two or three houses in each region? And it doesn’t have to be a good guy or a bad guy indicator. Hell, make the Freys old god worshippers for all I care. But House Royce clearly should have been worshippers of the old gods for all they still cling to their bronze armour and old runes.

[nyser1]

3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

My impression is that most marriages prior to Robert's rebellion where within their respective region. Therefore Sansa is more likely to marry heir to northern house. Though Sansa having a mother from the South, would increase her chance to marry outside the North,

This 100%.

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, James Steller said:

Eddard is not Mace or Tywin. Those men saw their daughters as nothing but bargaining chips to trade in for personal advancement, and they delude themselves that they’re doing it for their family. Eddard isn’t obsessed with power and prestige, he isn’t interested in using his kids as chess pieces in the game of power play. Robb is almost 15 in the first book and he isn’t even engaged. Eddard clearly wants to keep his kids close to home, and the idea of sending them off anywhere is distasteful to him. He only acquiesced to Sansa’s engagement because he couldn’t reject Robert’s offer for any number of reasons, plus Sansa is head over heels for Joffrey anyway. 
So yes, I believe Eddard would have been content to keep Sansa in the North, preferable as close to home as possible, and having her marry a second son would allow for that. 
 

Let me say up front that I am not a Ned hater.   I grabbed on your statements to echo in agreement with the small 1st caveat below.   

Ned sure agreed quickly if not jumped right on the marriage to Joffrey.   Ned was not cowed by Robert.   We have no indication Ned or Cat were interested in who Robb might have married and he was pretty old for all that prearranged bargaining.   Jon, too as far as that goes.  (I imagine Cat would have loved to have unload Jon to anyone as far away as she could get him) 

There is no clue that Ned was interested in any way, shape or form of marrying his children outside the North.  I would think a Manderly would be a fine catch.  A Dustin or Ryswell may have brought some peace with Lady Barbary?