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James Steller

Waymar/Robar Royce should have married Sansa Stark

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8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think it's rather simple.

Ned and Cat are really good people who made a good team and raised really good kids. However, they wanted to make sure that their children stayed children for as long as possible. So they sheltered them.

You can tell based on how dreamy Bran and Sansa are and how important the concept of honor is to Robb, Jon, Sansa and Bran. And all six of the Stark kids were taken completely off-guard by the realities of the world.

While you can make an argument in regards to Sansa, there is absolutely no reason why Robb wasn't already betrothed by the time A Game of Thrones had begun. Margaery Tyrell (or any one of her Tyrell first cousins), Myranda Royce, Alys Karstark, Dacey Mormont, Alysanne Mormont, any one of the Bracken or Frey girls, Bethany Blackwood, one of Wyman's granddaughters and Talla Tarly all would've been great matches.

Ah, Dacey Mormont and Robb Stark... there's a couple I'd ship. I don't care that she might be twice his age, that's almost better in how it subverts typical expectations. Robb and Dacey would have been such a great couple, GRRM even teased it across the third book; she's one of his best warriors and he's one of the most gifted military minds of his generation, she's completely devoted to him, she's like a version of Brienne that isn't so insecure and vulnerable, Robb never gives her any grief for being a woman and seems very comfortable around her, and she's the last person he dances with before their tragic deaths. Now imagine what their kids would have been like. Such a missed opportunity.

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On 9/3/2020 at 5:20 PM, Canon Claude said:

Then what are you even doing on this site? 

 

It's tough to say how many options were available to Sansa because we don't know all their ages, but we do know that Cley Cerwyn was a promising option. He's close to Sansa' age, he's the heir to a major Northern house that's close to Winterfell, and he's clearly a decent guy who's regularly interacted with the Starks. Daryn Hornwood was also a possible option for Sansa before his engagement to Alys Karstark.

And as for Alys, she could have gotten engaged to Robb; her father Rickard definitely wanted that to happen. What puzzles me is how that scene would have gone down and how Ned and Catelyn didn't address the obvious suggestion by Rickard. Anyone who's read the books would know that Rickard wasn't a man to take rejection or insult lightly, and he doesn't strike me as a subtle guy (he literally tells his child-age daughter to win over Robb when he takes her to Winterfell, after all). How did Ned side-step the possibility of getting Robb engaged to Alys, and moreover, why did he turn that down? Hell, why did Catelyn turn that down?

It's actually my biggest issue with House Tully; for all that they're apparently about marriage and family, nobody aside from Hoster lives up to that standard. Brynden is a confirmed and stubborn bachelor, Lysa is a complete trainwreck of a mother (because of Hoster and Littlefinger, I know, but still), Edmure is a cheerful playboy into his 20s/30s even when his dad is very sick and he stands to become Lord of Riverrun any minute, and Catelyn apparently didn't bother with marriage plans before Robert showed up, even when her children were on the cusp of coming of age (and we know that many noble houses start looking when their kids are still kids). 

Hoster didn't do a very good job at it. Just ask Lysa about moon tea and how much trouble he caused from that.

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On 9/6/2020 at 11:45 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Hoster didn't do a very good job at it. Just ask Lysa about moon tea and how much trouble he caused from that.

That ironically proves Claude’s point even more about how bad and inaccurate of a motto House Tully has. 

Edited by James Steller

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Cat would never have as bad a match as that.

And Ned grew up under a father who also wanted to make prestigious matches for his children.

He may not have had the ambition to marry his daughters to royalty or the greatest heirs in the Realm, but he would have definitely wanted his firstborn daughter to marry an heir or lord ... either in the North or in any of the other kingdoms. Andar Royce would have been a good match for Sansa. But Waymar is clearly beneath her, as is any nobleman who isn't an heir or lord himself.

Even for Arya Waymar Royce would have been stupidity. The man was landless and apparently without coin considering that even his older brother Robar had to go find work with Renly Baratheon.

Edited by Lord Varys

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54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cat would never have as bad a match as that.

And Ned grew up under a father who also wanted to make prestigious matches for his children.

He may not have had the ambition to marry his daughters to royalty or the greatest heirs in the Realm, but he would have definitely wanted his firstborn daughter to marry an heir or lord ... either in the North or in any of the other kingdoms. Andar Royce would have been a good match for Sansa. But Waymar is clearly beneath her, as is any nobleman who isn't an heir or lord himself.

Even for Arya Waymar Royce would have been stupidity. The man was landless and apparently without coin considering that even his older brother Robar had to go find work with Renly Baratheon.

Speaking of Arya, Ned Dayne or Quentyn Martell would have been a great match for Arya. Excellent matches. As a matter of fact, a match for Arya doesn't get any better than that.

But good point on Sansa would've done really well with the heirs to Seagard, Raventree Hall, Greywater Watch, Cerwyn, the Rills, Last Hearth, Karhold or even Hornwood. She even would've done well Renly as the future Lady of Storm's End.

Idk...I too find it strange that Edmure and Robb were not matched. Ned and Cat also should've actively been looking for a match for Sansa.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The man was landless and apparently without coin considering that even his older brother Robar had to go find work with Renly Baratheon.

It seems that Lannisters were even poorer than Royces bc heir of the Rock had to find himself work as a bodyguard.

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49 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Speaking of Arya, Ned Dayne or Quentyn Martell would have been a great match for Arya. Excellent matches. As a matter of fact, a match for Arya doesn't get any better than that.

But good point on Sansa would've done really well with the heirs to Seagard, Raventree Hall, Greywater Watch, Cerwyn, the Rills, Last Hearth, Karhold or even Hornwood. She even would've done well Renly as the future Lady of Storm's End.

Idk...I too find it strange that Edmure and Robb were not matched. Ned and Cat also should've actively been looking for a match for Sansa.

Well, Daryn Hornwood was already matched, Smalljon and Harrion might have been too old, Brynden Blackwood was too old (his younger brother Lucas is described as being in his 20s), Patrek Mallister might have been too lusty, I’ve gotten the impression that the Reeds are low men on the totem pole, and Ned’s name is likely mud in the Rills. But for Cerwyn there’s no excuse except plot expediency. I’m surprised Roose Bolton never tried to send a suggestion for a match between Sansa and his son Domeric before he died.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Even for Arya Waymar Royce would have been stupidity. The man was landless and apparently without coin considering that even his older brother Robar had to go find work with Renly Baratheon.

Now that makes me wonder what Ned’s prospects would have been if Brandon had acceded to the lordship of Winterfell. There didn’t seem to be any plans for him after fostering other than shuttling back and forth between the North and the Vale and bringing an unsuitable suit to his father.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Speaking of Arya, Ned Dayne or Quentyn Martell would have been a great match for Arya. Excellent matches. As a matter of fact, a match for Arya doesn't get any better than that.

Ned Dayne would have been good, Quentyn Martell would be too old for her. But both are far too south for regular Stark matches. Although Ned's Dayne connections could have paved the way for something like that. I could see the Arya-Edric match happening if Edric had had the heart to talk to Ned while he was at court (and things had turned out differently for Ned, of course).

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But good point on Sansa would've done really well with the heirs to Seagard, Raventree Hall, Greywater Watch, Cerwyn, the Rills, Last Hearth, Karhold or even Hornwood. She even would've done well Renly as the future Lady of Storm's End.

Greywater Watch is something that would be beneath the Starks, all things considered. As would be matches with the clansmen and the like. Younger daughters could, perhaps, marry the likes of the Cerwyns, Glovers, and Tallharts, but the elder daughters should marry prestigious (future) lords.

Sansa for Renly is also something that could have been considered if they hadn't made the royal match.

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Idk...I too find it strange that Edmure and Robb were not matched. Ned and Cat also should've actively been looking for a match for Sansa.

Edmure is very odd, especially considering how Hoster is portrayed in relation to his daughters. This should be explained by Hoster aiming for a very specific bride ... Margaery Tyrell, say, or perhaps even Shireen or Myrcella Baratheon. Willas Tyrell is a similar case. Those men would have been offered a lot of brides and there must be reasons why they or their fathers rejected the offers. Sort of like we got for Arianne being still unmarried.

The Stark children seem to have been too young for betrothals. Robb would be matched in the years to come, as would the other children.

It is not that usual to make matches for young children. Even the Targaryens with their incest and kin marriages didn't necessarily make matches involving toddlers. That sort of happened, too, but if you think about King Aenys' children or the children of Alysanne and the Old King, then things were not necessarily rushed.

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, Daryn Hornwood was already matched, Smalljon and Harrion might have been too old, Brynden Blackwood was too old (his younger brother Lucas is described as being in his 20s), Patrek Mallister might have been too lusty, I’ve gotten the impression that the Reeds are low men on the totem pole, and Ned’s name is likely mud in the Rills. But for Cerwyn there’s no excuse except plot expediency. I’m surprised Roose Bolton never tried to send a suggestion for a match between Sansa and his son Domeric before he died.

In the cases of older heirs one has to consider that eldest sons of heirs would also make fine matches for Sansa and Arya. Those would be seen as future lords, too.

Vice versa, for Robb those Manderly granddaughters, especially the younger one, Wylla, would have been good matches.

With there being no Bolton-Stark matches in the family tree I doubt they ever did that kind of thing ... or that it was at least very unusual. One imagines, that Roose was trying to get a Vale bride for his son with Domeric being fostered there, perhaps one of them Stark cousins over there.

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Now that makes me wonder what Ned’s prospects would have been if Brandon had acceded to the lordship of Winterfell. There didn’t seem to be any plans for him after fostering other than shuttling back and forth between the North and the Vale and bringing an unsuitable suit to his father.

A second son cannot expect that prestigious a match. But with the Starks being great lords one imagines Ned still could make a match with a younger daughter of a prestigious Northern house or perhaps even with minor southern house he made contact with in the Vale.

Of course, the Ashara Dayne thing would also have been possible if they had been in love.

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The second or third son of the  Royces wouldn’t be a good choice for a first daughter of the lords paramount of the north and a bloodline that’s been Kings since the age of heroes till aegon came. 
 

Arya would be more in line and that would still be a step up for a son that’s not inheriting.
 

it’s also not a matter of inheritance marrying a daughter not really it’s about friendship with the house that you’re marrying them to. Only if you extinguish a house in the male line will you be able to lay claim to the castle which is still a worthwhile advantage. 
 

Anyways I’m not even sure how ned would handle marrying his daughters off in normal circumstance, it was Catlyn who wanted to marry Sansa off to Joeffery, Ned was on the verge of refusing Robert. 
 

 

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Generally speaking when considering matches for daughters:

You want them out of your house and as lady of a proper castle, giving birth to lords. That is the ideal life for a highborn daughter. Nobody wants a daughter to grow old in her father's castle or house her husband (and perhaps even the husband's family) in your castle.

This kind of thing also happens, of course (a noteworthy example is Ambrose Butterwell's son-in-law, Tommard Heddle), but it is not the kind of thing a great lord wants for his daughters.

Marriages for girls are arranged to get rid of daughters, so to speak, whereas marriages for boys are arranged to gain new daughters.

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On 9/5/2020 at 12:02 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

Waymar is landless and that makes him unattractive to somebody like Sansa, who has a very high opinion of herself.  Allayne, otoh, is a match that could work for a boy of equivalent standing to Waymar. 

And yet Sansa had a crush on him when Waymar and his father visited Winterfell while they were on their way to Castle Black. She even goes as far to describe it as "wildly falling in love". Her current crush is Loras, the youngest son of Mace Tyrell, who is nowhere near in line to become Warden of the South. 

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29 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

And yet Sansa had a crush on him when Waymar and his father visited Winterfell while they were on their way to Castle Black. She even goes as far to describe it as "wildly falling in love". Her current crush is Loras, the youngest son of Mace Tyrell, who is nowhere near in line to become Warden of the South. 

And a Kingsguard no less.

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5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And a Kingsguard no less.

Well Sansa does fancy herself as Queen Naerys. We shouldn't be surprised she likes gallant and heroic guys who are part of celibate institutions. She wants her own Prince Aemon the dragon knight :wub:

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