Is Tyrion a bigamist?

[Angel Eyes]

Question: is the Tyrion-Tysha marriage still valid? Tywin certainly wrecked it, but did he go through the proper channels to annul this marriage? Where is the septon who conducted the ceremony? Or did Tywin not use said channels because he just doesn't care?

[Lord Lannister]

I'm pretty sure the septon ended up dead in a gutter somewhere and the whole thing was swept under the rug as having never happened.

[GoldenGail3]

I though Tywin annulled that marriage?

[sweetsunray]

I suspect the septon at Castle Black - Septon Cellador - is the septon who wed them. Sure there seems to be no other commonality than the fact that both love to drink and be drunk, but I wonder that through Tywin's pressure, the Faith ended up sending the drunken septon who wed 13-year old Tyrion to a commoner to the Wall in order to be rid of him, like the Citadel arranged for maester Aemon to serve at the Wall. Though neither swore the NW vows. Unfortunately, Tyrion's visit at Castle Black is of little use to dispell that suspicion. Tyrion never mentions the drunk septon Cellador of Castle Black, while he visits it, which just might be because he's just a septon to Tyrion... and yet, you would expect Tyrion and Cellador to be drinking buddies soon and get a mention. Even if George hadn't made up Cellador yet at the time of initially writing Tyrion's chapters there, he did feature Cellador as drunken septon in Jon's chapters of aGoT, and George introduces the wedding story in aGoT. It would have been a minor edit to Tyrion's earlier chapters to have Cellador seated at the dinner where Tyrion mocks Thorne to ensure that neither knew each other, especially since Tyrion did interact with Chayle at Winterfell for a tidbit. Anyway, if Cellador is the one and the same septon, it's possible he kept himself away once Tyrion appeared at the Wall and drank himself into oblivion in some nook where nobody bothered him.

As for the marriage being annulled. I don't think Tywin ever managed to get an official annulment of it. It has to be petitioned by one of the wedding partners, and it requires a claim of non-consummation, which was a complete impossibility after the gang rape of Tysha in which Tyrion participated. Tywin could have pressured for a separation though, and forced it, while trying to get rid of the witnesses somehow. Hence, the possibility of having the septon being ordained at Castle Black imo, so he'll never wag his drunken tongue about it anymore to anyone who could spread the word to the rest of Westeros; and have other men than Tyrion gang rape Tysha, so that if she ever turned up pregnant it would be hard for her to claim Tyrion was the father. 

[Curled Finger]

Does it matter that Tyrion's 2nd marriage was not consummated?  Seem to recall Little Finger maybe saying the marriage could or would be annulled?  Just supposing the possibility is true, I would think the 1st marriage was invalid.  Seems very few people even know about the marriage to Tysha.  Does this marriage even count if no one knows about it?   We like to argue the finer points of law but I'm thinking a man of Tywin's great and imposing power would have no problem erasing the 1st marriage, law be damned.  

Now my thoughts are looping around the absurdity of this idea of Tyrion's bigamy.   Would Sansa Stark's marriage to Tyrion Lannister even matter if it is Alayne Stone who marries Harry Hardying?   I thought the identity reveal was planned for after the nuptials.    Ahha!  Perhaps that is how frickin' Little Finger gets her out of that terrible disaster of an idea.   

[Nevets]

I have doubts it was ever valid in the first place.  Neither is old enough to enter into a marriage by themselves even by Westeros standards.  The would need assent from a parent, guardian, or some other responsible party, which is definitely not present here.  Also it was not recorded or properly witnessed.  When you are dealing with nobility especially, the saying, if it isn't written down, it never happened" is apropos.

And in the event it was valid, I'm sure Tywin made damn sure it was properly invalidated.  He is not one to leave such things dangling, and not by murder either.  I'd bet on all the necessary paperwork being filed with the proper authorities.  That marriage is dead, and isn't going to reappear.  If Sansa wants to invalidate her marriage, she'll have to find another way.

[FictionIsntReal]

Quote

my father had the marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said.

Sounds at least somewhat official. Annulment treats a marriage as if it never happened (so any children resulting would be then considered bastards).

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I suspect the septon at Castle Black - Septon Cellador - is the septon who wed them. Sure there seems to be no other commonality than the fact that both love to drink and be drunk, but I wonder that through Tywin's pressure, the Faith ended up sending the drunken septon who wed 13-year old Tyrion to a commoner to the Wall in order to be rid of him, like the Citadel arranged for maester Aemon to serve at the Wall. Though neither swore the NW vows. Unfortunately, Tyrion's visit at Castle Black is of little use to dispell that suspicion. Tyrion never mentions the drunk septon Cellador of Castle Black, while he visits it, which just might be because he's just a septon to Tyrion... and yet, you would expect Tyrion and Cellador to be drinking buddies soon and get a mention. Even if George hadn't made up Cellador yet at the time of initially writing Tyrion's chapters there, he did feature Cellador as drunken septon in Jon's chapters of aGoT, and George introduces the wedding story in aGoT. It would have been a minor edit to Tyrion's earlier chapters to have Cellador seated at the dinner where Tyrion mocks Thorne to ensure that neither knew each other, especially since Tyrion did interact with Chayle at Winterfell for a tidbit. Anyway, if Cellador is the one and the same septon, it's possible he kept himself away once Tyrion appeared at the Wall and drank himself into oblivion in some nook where nobody bothered him.

As for the marriage being annulled. I don't think Tywin ever managed to get an official annulment of it. It has to be petitioned by one of the wedding partners, and it requires a claim of non-consummation, which was a complete impossibility after the gang rape of Tysha in which Tyrion participated. Tywin could have pressured for a separation though, and forced it, while trying to get rid of the witnesses somehow. Hence, the possibility of having the septon being ordained at Castle Black imo, so he'll never wag his drunken tongue about it anymore to anyone who could spread the word to the rest of Westeros; and have other men than Tyrion gang rape Tysha, so that if she ever turned up pregnant it would be hard for her to claim Tyrion was the father. 

Oh, I think Tywin Lannister has enough pull with the high septon to annul the marriage regardless of consummation or the couple's wishes. A hefty donation to the church is all it would take. I doubt Tywin takes any chances when it comes to giving others access to the Lannister fortune, particularly commoners.

[SFDanny]

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

my father had the marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said.

 

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Sounds at least somewhat official. Annulment treats a marriage as if it never happened (so any children resulting would be then considered bastards).

Tywin is a liar. Not a chance this was annulled by the High Septon. The humiliation of letting the rest of Westeros know that his dwarf son had married a crofter's daughter would be too much for Lord Lannister to stand. It would also have needed testimony that the marriage was never consummated by both Tyrion and Tysha. If Tysha is still alive, they are still married.

But to the question posed, no Tyrion is not a bigamist. The marriage between Tyrion and Sansa was never consummated, and both would likely testify to such. As Tywin makes clear to Tyrion, a marriage that is not consummated can always be set aside.

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, Nevets said:

I have doubts it was ever valid in the first place.  Neither is old enough to enter into a marriage by themselves even by Westeros standards.  The would need assent from a parent, guardian, or some other responsible party, which is definitely not present here.  Also it was not recorded or properly witnessed.  When you are dealing with nobility especially, the saying, if it isn't written down, it never happened" is apropos.

And in the event it was valid, I'm sure Tywin made damn sure it was properly invalidated.  He is not one to leave such things dangling, and not by murder either.  I'd bet on all the necessary paperwork being filed with the proper authorities.  That marriage is dead, and isn't going to reappear.  If Sansa wants to invalidate her marriage, she'll have to find another way.

Yah the recording of marriages occurred to me after posting.  Seems to me there has to be a record of an important event such as marriage or annulment or maybe even divorce if that's a thing.   If there is no record it didn't happen, but what do we do with those weddings before the wierwoods?   

[Farstrider]

The marriage was consummated but the lack of children also meant a lack of proof.  Which opens the possibility of denial.  Tywin would go through the proper channels to have the marriage ended.  Would the king and a septon deny such a request?  I think not.  

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, The Coonster said:

The marriage was consummated but the lack of children also meant a lack of proof.  Which opens the possibility of denial.  Tywin would go through the proper channels to have the marriage ended.  Would the king and a septon deny such a request?  I think not.  

Lack of proof of consummation isn't the standard. The two people who were married have to say they never consummated it. Tyrion obviously did not testify as such, nor did Tysha. No, Tywin has Tyrion convinced via Jaime's lying testimony the whole thing was a fraud. Tyrion only learns the truth upon Jaime's confession during his rescue from the black cells. A hoax marriage isn't set aside by decree of the High Septon.

Why would Tywin really go through with a ceremony with the High Septon that would alert all of Westeros that the marriage wasn't a fraud and needed to be set aside by official means? He wouldn't and he doesn't. He just lies to Tyrion about taking care of the Faith and its standards. The only thing Tywin may have done with the Faith is deal with the drunken Septon so he cannot or will not ever tell the true story.  I'd love to find out what happened to that Septon.

Tywin then destroys the marriage through his gang rape of Tysha and forces Tyrion to believe Tysha was a whore who pretended to love him. Then he sends Tysha to where ever "whores go" and believes if anyone then finds out about this marriage, they too will believe it a fraud.

This is not a story of official acts. This is a story of lies and brutality. This is cruelty and abuse of the first order directed at Tysha, first and foremost, but also towards the thirteen year old Tyrion.

[Nevets]

What part of "13 year-olds cannot enter into a marriage without permission" hasn't gotten through? 

What we have is a pseudo-marriage conducted by a bribed septon with no record or witnesses, involving two people who lack the capacity to enter into a marriage on their own authority.

There is no marriage, there never was a legal marriage.  All Tywin has to do is get it wound up.

The only purpose I can see for it in the story would be to invalidate Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.  I don't see GRRM going that route.  If Sansa is going to have her marriage invalidated, she is going to have to work at it.

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

What part of "13 year-olds cannot enter into a marriage without permission" hasn't gotten through? 

What we have is a pseudo-marriage conducted by a bribed septon with no record or witnesses, involving two people who lack the capacity to enter into a marriage on their own authority.

There is no marriage, there never was a legal marriage.  All Tywin has to do is get it wound up.

The only purpose I can see for it in the story would be to invalidate Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.  I don't see GRRM going that route.  If Sansa is going to have her marriage invalidated, she is going to have to work at it.

If this was true, it might be persuasive. It is not true or persuasive. You are using real world answers for Martin's world, and that isn't always the same. The marriage is performed by a septon and valid once it was consummated. Do we need to start listing examples? Start with Sansa's own marriage with Tyrion. under age but married nonetheless; though it can be set aside by the High Septon because it was not consummated. They needed to threaten and intimidate Sansa into giving her under age agreement. There are other examples. Egg's own children, Jaehaerys and his sister Shaera - both under age at fifteen and fourteen and without permission, for example. And only, once again, the High Septon has the right to set aside the marriage, and only for specific causes, btw. The rules were the same then, as when Tyrion and Tysha wed. Say the vows before a septon, and consummate the marriage and it is valid in the eyes of the Faith.

Again, this isn't a case of official channels, that obviously were not taken. 

There is another reason for Martin to want this outcome that you are not thinking of in your declaration of "only purpose." That would be to have Tyrion and Tysha once again meet as still husband and wife. Not that such a meeting is going to mean "happily ever after." Still, it could end with both people dead. Murder/suicide perhaps? But who knows where Martin may want this story thread to end up? Perhaps he does want a happily ever after ending for someone in this tale. As unlikely as that is for either Tyrion or Tysha.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/2/2020 at 2:47 PM, SFDanny said:

Tywin is a liar.

The quote is "the septons said" not "my father said".

Quote

It would also have needed testimony that the marriage was never consummated by both Tyrion and Tysha.

Since the "marriage" was officiated by a drunken septon and the only "witnesses" were farm animals, it's unclear all that would be necessary.

Quote

As Tywin makes clear to Tyrion, a marriage that is not consummated can always be set aside.

If a marriage is actually bigamous, it's irrelevant whether it was ever consummated (consummation would just be adultery with respect to the existing valid marriage).

On 9/2/2020 at 3:14 PM, Curled Finger said:

If there is no record it didn't happen, but what do we do with those weddings before the wierwoods?   

This is one of those places where the poor worldbuilding of the religion of the Old Gods comes to the fore. No clergy, no hymns, not much in the way of rituals aside from human sacrifice which isn't practiced anymore? GRRM could have looked to something like Hinduism to see what a long-lasting civilization with a religion completely unrelated to Christianity would be like. The point of marriage is to be a public ceremony, but even if the Old Gods can see it other humans can't unless they're present as well.

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If this was true, it might be persuasive. It is not true or persuasive. You are using real world answers for Martin's world, and that isn't always the same. The marriage is performed by a septon and valid once it was consummated.

His world also features an organized religion with its own set of marriage laws because marriage is important to them, a cornerstone even of its political system.

Quote

Start with Sansa's own marriage with Tyrion. under age but married nonetheless

Joffrey claimed the place of Sansa's "father" giving her away, and as king he could get away with that even though I expect others would regard it as sketchy as hell.

Quote

There are other examples. Egg's own children, Jaehaerys and his sister Shaera - both under age at fifteen and fourteen and without permission, for example.

That is older, but since we don't know about who was present at the ceremony, other than that their parents weren't, it might be a better example.

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If this was true, it might be persuasive. It is not true or persuasive. You are using real world answers for Martin's world, and that isn't always the same. The marriage is performed by a septon and valid once it was consummated. Do we need to start listing examples? Start with Sansa's own marriage with Tyrion. under age but married nonetheless; though it can be set aside by the High Septon because it was not consummated. They needed to threaten and intimidate Sansa into giving her under age agreement. There are other examples. Egg's own children, Jaehaerys and his sister Shaera - both under age at fifteen and fourteen and without permission, for example. And only, once again, the High Septon has the right to set aside the marriage, and only for specific causes, btw. The rules were the same then, as when Tyrion and Tysha wed. Say the vows before a septon, and consummate the marriage and it is valid in the eyes of the Faith.

Again, this isn't a case of official channels, that obviously were not taken. 

There is another reason for Martin to want this outcome that you are not thinking of in your declaration of "only purpose." That would be to have Tyrion and Tysha once again meet as still husband and wife. Not that such a meeting is going to mean "happily ever after." Still, it could end with both people dead. Murder/suicide perhaps? But who knows where Martin may want this story thread to end up? Perhaps he does want a happily ever after ending for someone in this tale. As unlikely as that is for either Tyrion or Tysha.

I'm pretty sure Sansa at 12 or 13 was of legal age to marry, though I think the boys have to be older or reach some milestone as Sansa did.  Seemed the whole marriage to Joffrey was only waiting for Sansa's flowering.  Isn't it Tyrek Lannister who is betrothed to a 2 year-old?  The point is that age doesn't appear to be the determining factor here.  Without proof in text I think the age of consent is 1) whenever the parents feel it is time or 2) a person is capable of procreating.  There was a 6 year-old lord of Darry.  Age is not the driving thing here.  

[Curled Finger]

28 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

This is one of those places where the poor worldbuilding of the religion of the Old Gods comes to the fore. No clergy, no hymns, not much in the way of rituals aside from human sacrifice which isn't practiced anymore? GRRM could have looked to something like Hinduism to see what a long-lasting civilization with a religion completely unrelated to Christianity would be like. The point of marriage is to be a public ceremony, but even if the Old Gods can see it other humans can't unless they're present as well.

Poor world building?  Really?  We don't know that there are not hymns or rituals, but more importantly a vow taken before a weirwood would have been a very public event before Men came and destroyed the trees.  Perhaps the lack of ritual is due to the fact that the trees saw far and wide.  If Bran's visions are an indication a good many people (ish) would have witnessed pretty much anything done before a tree in the days the Old Gods watched Westeros.  Ravens talked then.  

The ancient religion and practices of the old gods is designed to be mysterious to us.  It's likely a case where the characters know and understand far more than we where this is concerned.  

[Sir Tumbleweed]

I think the faith would still consider their marriage valid.. if they ever found out about it? Tywin seems to have a 'winner writes the history books' attitude. He has no concern for inheritance traditions because he insists on Jaime being the heir to Casterly Rock after taking his white cloak. He also has no concern for guest right as seen by the Red Wedding.

I think Tywin had the septon killed, humiliated Tysha, and left Tyrion scarred enough to bury it in his past. But never dealt with it through the faith or whatever proper means. Divorce is pretty unheard of in Westeros and it would only add to the 'Shame that Tyrion brought on house Lannister' which is a big no-no for daddy Lannister.

[SFDanny]

13 minutes ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

I think the faith would still consider their marriage valid.. if they ever found out about it? Tywin seems to have a 'winner writes the history books' attitude. He has no concern for inheritance traditions because he insists on Jaime being the heir to Casterly Rock after taking his white cloak. He also has no concern for guest right as seen by the Red Wedding.

I think Tywin had the septon killed, humiliated Tysha, and left Tyrion scarred enough to bury it in his past. But never dealt with it through the faith or whatever proper means. Divorce is pretty unheard of in Westeros and it would only add to the 'Shame that Tyrion brought on house Lannister' which is a big no-no for daddy Lannister.

Exactly.

I would only add that the method with which he humiliated Tysha also has an ulterior motive, besides the obvious one of forcing Tyrion to accept Jaime's lie. The gang rape ensures that if Tysha is pregnant from her short time with Tyrion that the question of the father of the child is forever in dispute. Tywin can claim Tysha was a prostitute who slept with a barracks full of men and any child could be from anyone of her "clients." No child of Tysha could claim any right to Lannister land, title, or wealth.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/3/2020 at 11:16 PM, Curled Finger said:

Perhaps the lack of ritual is due to the fact that the trees saw far and wide.  If Bran's visions are an indication a good many people (ish) would have witnessed pretty much anything done before a tree in the days the Old Gods watched Westeros.  Ravens talked then.

I don't think greenseers are that common. Nor do we have much indication of how common talking ravens were. I don't think the First Men had a lot of semi-common powers the Andals lacked, or the Andals wouldn't have had such an advantage on foreign soil with just iron weapons. The point of a marriage is for everyone in the community to know those two are together. Someone far away knowing about it isn't that important, since in the past most people stayed near where they were born.

Quote

The ancient religion and practices of the old gods is designed to be mysterious to us.  It's likely a case where the characters know and understand far more than we where this is concerned.

The usual way to depict that is via characters to whom it is foreign, as Melisandre's R'hllorism is to Seven-following Cressen & Davos. And we do get a bit of Catelyn feeling out of place in the weirwood, but even she doesn't really think of it as "mysterious". I suppose Sam could qualify, since he only decided to switch to the Old Gods after meeting joining the Nights Watch and meeting Jon.

17 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

He has no concern for inheritance traditions because he insists on Jaime being the heir to Casterly Rock after taking his white cloak.

It's less clear to me whether Jaime was formally heir. Ned worrying about him being Warden of both West and East seemed a bit of early installment weirdness. But it doesn't seem like Jaime had expected to be heir. Tywin might opportunistically try to claim Barristan's dismissal is a precedent, but I really don't know what he planned earlier. Even in a world where Jaime was permitted to break the rule against holding any lands, he still can't have heirs of his own.

Quote

I think Tywin had the septon killed, humiliated Tysha

Why would he kill a septon but leave Tysha alive? And again, Tyrion recounts the septons saying it was like the marriage had never happened (indicating they did in fact "find out about it"), not his father saying that.