US Politics: Choking our Democracy

[Lollygag]

  

1 hour ago, Triskele said:

But the great news there is that the center-left has all the guns, right?  Right?  

The left always did seem like Hobbits living blithely in the Shire (or rather, believing the utopia of the Shire was always right around the corner) thinking orcs and Sauron types would never be relevant to their existence.

3 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I actually think this is overblown. If an actual civil war occurred (it will not) the liberals would arm themselves quickly and not be at a relevant disadvantage.

There's already shortages of both arms and ammo. A lot of the buyers are Asians (China virus), Black folks and women. No doubt also the usual types. Gen Z who have been traumatized by gun violence, are showing some signs of changing due to Black Lives Matter, bad cops, Trump, etc. Weirdest of all is my lifelong anti-gun Mom now learning to shoot and who is now militant about putting out Biden signs in Trump country where there's already a sign war issue.

-------------------------------------------

Tennessee has made moves to disenfranchise Black Lives Matter protestors' voting rights. This could well also extend to the ability to legally buy a gun btw. In an area where cops and judges are in league with Trumpists....

https://time.com/5882735/tennesee-law-protest-voting-rights-felony/

Quote

A new Tennessee law, signed by the governor this week, makes it a felony for protesters to camp out overnight on state property. If convicted, they could lose their voting rights and face up to six years in prison.

Although some states are moving towards restoring voting rights for felons, it remains illegal for felons to vote in Tennessee.

 

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Except one way or another it'd be fair to say that US democracy was at grave threat after the 1800 election, the war of 1812, obviously the Civil War, the panic of 1893, the Great Depression/WWII, the sixties, the post-Watergate era, the post 9/11 era.  And the system endured throughout all of those - and 7/8 did not require a civil war.  So, no, it's pretty stupid to compare the endurance of the US system to Russia in 2000 or Hungary or Poland.

Totally agreed.  Our focus should be on those reforms that can forestall the U.S.'s descent into authoritarianism, gridlock and dysfunction.  Voting Trump and taking back the Senate is the first step.  Nothing is wrong with America that cannot be fixed by what is right with America. 

[Fury Resurrected]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Nothing is wrong with America that cannot be fixed by what is right with America. 

Whaaaaaaaaat?

[mormont]

Re: Trump losing, fascism, etc.: it's at this point I usually remind people of two factors that militate against the risk of him attempting to cling on to power, which are that Trump is a, incorrigibly lazy and b, a physical coward. Seizing power in a coup is too much work and too dangerous for Trump, when he can just bitch and moan on Twitter about how he was robbed and try to grift his supporters for the rest of his life.

[sologdin]

not revert to despotism when hard choices need to be made? 

some difficulty here in stripping classical despotism from its technical significance and using it metaphorically in a modern setting.  we see the term used metaphorically in famous writings:

Quote

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production

i'm more cheering than shrugging here--but it's a metaphorical hopeful prophetics, equally as untethered as in metaphorical fearful prophetics. hard choices get made all the time--we produce trifles such as cosmetics and let starvation continue, say.  

 

 having your country simply not elect the person with more votes than the other person is a systemic flaw in democracy

is it?  maybe.  but it's the opposite of a stability problem--it's been this way the entire time.  and this in itself doesn't make any greater deviation from principle more likely to be inevitable.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Re: Trump losing, fascism, etc.: it's at this point I usually remind people of two factors that militate against the risk of him attempting to cling on to power, which are that Trump is a, incorrigibly lazy and b, a physical coward. Seizing power in a coup is too much work and too dangerous for Trump, when he can just bitch and moan on Twitter about how he was robbed and try to grift his supporters for the rest of his life.

I agree with both points, but self-preservation may supersede them. Trump has to know he's going to jail if he loses this election. 

[maarsen]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I agree with both points, but self-preservation may supersede them. Trump has to know he's going to jail if he loses this election. 

Unless he dies in office, one can easily assume that a stint in the crowbar hotel lies in his future.

[A True Kaniggit]

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I agree with both points, but self-preservation may supersede them. Trump has to know he's going to jail if he loses this election. 

Why would he know this?

Has a US president ever gone to prison after leaving office for any of the crimes they have committed?

[Fragile Bird]

4 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Why would he know this?

Has a US president ever gone to prison after leaving office for any of the crimes they have committed?

We’ve had this discussion before and we know the answer - it ain’t gonna happen.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

We’ve had this discussion before and we know the answer - it ain’t gonna happen.

I wouldn't be so sure.

[Gaston de Foix]

1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said:

We’ve had this discussion before and we know the answer - it ain’t gonna happen.

Trump will not go to prison for federal crimes because he will "pardon" himself. 

Cue debates about constitutionality of self-pardons and the usual Republican refrain about moving on and ignoring the past criming for the good of the nation.  

But that's not the desired end, that Trump goes to prison.  We should aspire to reforming our system of government so we can never have another Trump - and if we do he can never abuse the powers of the presidency so evilly again. 

[DMC]

I'm thinking we send him to Elba.

[The Mance]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I wouldn't be so sure.

Even if he were actually convicted of a criminal offense he would never outlive the appeal process.  

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, The Mance said:

Even if he were actually convicted of a criminal offense he would never outlive the appeal process.  

Well, convicts usually spend the appeals process in prison.

[A True Kaniggit]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm thinking we send him to Elba.

Damn.

But then we'd have to deal with the "100 days".

[The Mance]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, convicts usually spend the appeals process in prison.

A former president, though?  

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Damn.

But then we'd have to deal with the "100 days".

Well, if he wants to go to Paris and start some shit let the French deal with him.  Of course they'll probably immediately surrender.

8 minutes ago, The Mance said:

A former president, though?  

Who knows, there's no precedent.  I guess the closest - if there no pardons (self or otherwise) involved - would be Spiro Agnew, who reached a plea bargain to avoid jail time.  Wouldn't be surprised if Trump gets the same offer, along with handing over a hefty amount of the money he's embezzled for himself, family, and friends.

Honestly, I don't really give a shit what happens to House Trump once he leaves office - as long as he leaves office.  What do I think will happen?  Well, Obama rather instantly put the kibosh on prosecuting Dubya and co. upon winning election.  I suspect that will be Biden's inclination as well, but he's gonna have a problem on his left the moment the race is called.  My guess is he'll instruct his AG to appoint a special prosecutor to appease/mollify the left.  What happens after that I don't really care to speculate.

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, mormont said:

Re: Trump losing, fascism, etc.: it's at this point I usually remind people of two factors that militate against the risk of him attempting to cling on to power, which are that Trump is a, incorrigibly lazy and b, a physical coward. Seizing power in a coup is too much work and too dangerous for Trump, when he can just bitch and moan on Twitter about how he was robbed and try to grift his supporters for the rest of his life.

But those who come after him are not.  Not a single, not one, nobody, of the gop house, senate, governors, has uttered a SINGLE word of rebuke even, of him calling members of the US military losers and suckers for dying in war, or becoming a pow, or wounded, or anything.  Not.  One.

In the meantime he's packed the courts, including the Supreme Court, destroyed the FDA, the CDC, the environmental protection agency, the United States Post Office, any consumer protection rules and regs and the capacity to sue, enabled the most violent expressions of racism through complete support of his own militias, which are the cops, ICE and Homeland Security, made reproductive health inaccessible to just about every woman without money and who doesn't live in a 'blue' city, destroyed family after family, committed unspeakable atrocities upon immigrants -- and o yah, literally killed going on 200,000 US citizens, and allowed millions more to be sick without test, trace or track.  Because of this our passports are worthless, and we can't go anywhere -- and probably won't be able to for years because covid-19 will rampage forever because of what he did and what he refused to do.  Then he plundered the taxpayers, stole literally from us to prop up his mega maga loans and mortgages and fill his own pockets and those of Ivanka and Jared (who really, really is a bust boy).  That's all just for starters.  You call this democracy in any shape or form?

 

[Zorral]

17 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Damn.

But then we'd have to deal with the "100 days".

As I've always said: Guantanamo. For life.  No phone. No tv.

 

[williamjm]

28 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm thinking we send him to Elba.

Maybe Putin will offer him asylum in Russia?