Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

In a way, Doreah and Jhiqui are BOTH right. The moon in the Qartheen myth, isn't an actual moon, but a woman, just like Dany is the moon of Drogo's life and he is her sun and stars. The Sun in the myth just happened to have two wives. I think that one of the wives did exactly what Dany did when she walked into Drogo's pyre. Dany herself is the second moon that cracked to birth the dragons. The Sun and Moon are symbolic of actual people instead of the dragons symbolizing an astrological event

IMO this is a mythological story to explain a celestial event that was witnessed on planetos. A large comet struck the moon and the falling asteroids looked like burning falling swords. Oral histories are often told in this manner, assigning human qualities to make the story more interesting and memorable.

4 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe this is how the original Ice got lost? It was used to kill the Others / the Long Night back then and vanished with them, i.e. it was created with (blood?) magic for one purpose only?

[The blood magic being the sacrifice Bran witnessed in his dream. Of the last hero, aka Bran the Builder giving his life so mankind prevails ...]

This is my current thought, that the original Ice was the sword of the Last Hero and it shattered while fighting a white walker. It's said the Children helped him and I think they helped him by resurrecting him into a sentient wight. What is dead cannot die.

 

[alienarea]

17 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Otherwise I’m not sure what exactly to make of “Lion’s Tooth”.

The poor boy has always been misunderstood. All we wanted to be was a dentist for lions

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

This is my current thought, that the original Ice was the sword of the Last Hero and it shattered while fighting a white walker. It's said the Children helped him and I think they helped him by resurrecting him into a sentient wight. What is dead cannot die.

My thinking on this is that the sword of the LH was made or iron.  This is the sword that shattered not unlike the fight between Waymar and the WW.  Then the cotf gave the LH a weapon made of obsidian which he used to defeat Winter.  Then the LH claimed that sword ICE giving him dominion over the WWs and making him the first king of winter.     

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

The poor boy has always been misunderstood. All we wanted to be was a dentist for lions

Just kinda curious as to what you think about Red Rain then? 

[Lady Dyanna]

43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My thinking on this is that the sword of the LH was made or iron.  This is the sword that shattered not unlike the fight between Waymar and the WW.  Then the cotf gave the LH a weapon made of obsidian which he used to defeat Winter.  Then the LH claimed that sword ICE giving him dominion over the WWs and making him the first king of winter.     

This seems to be a fairly sound hypothesis. Except for the fact that if Valyrian steel breaks the spell holding a white walker together, and their swords are a magical creation, why would that sword not have been shattered? Or evaporated. Or whatever exactly it is that happens when a ww gets shanked. 

[Lady Dyanna]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

IMO this is a mythological story to explain a celestial event that was witnessed on planetos. A large comet struck the moon and the falling asteroids looked like burning falling swords. Oral histories are often told in this manner, assigning human qualities to make the story more interesting and memorable.

So.... If I’m reading this correctly, it seems you are telling me that you are completely willing to ignore the textual evidence that I’ve provided because it doesn’t agree with your opinion? There are multiple roles from legend being carried out by our current characters.
 

I think that you might be forgetting that Legends are also part of mythology. 
 

Quote

 

A legend is presumed to have some basis in historical fact and tends to mention real people or events. Historical fact morphs into a legend when the truth has been exaggerated to the point that real people or events have taken on a romanticized, "larger than life" quality. In contrast, a myth is a type of symbolic storytelling that was never based on fact. Throughout time, myths have sought to explain difficult concepts (e.g., the origin of the universe) with the help of common story devices, such as personification and allegories. 

These words are commonly used interchangeably to refer to the fictitious nature of something. Historically and academically, however, there is a difference.

 

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Legend_vs_Myth

[Lady Dyanna]

17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Azor Ahai is an in-world mythological hero with no evidence that he was ever a real. Other cultures have an Azor Ahai hero known by other names: Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. Melisandre links AA to the Prince that was Promised. The ancient tales of Yi Ti make the hero a woman with a monkey's tail.

The forging of the sword, first thirty, then fifty, then one hundred seems to echo other numerical requirements of feats in myths. Many ancient cultures used myths to explain the existence of the world. The deluge rain that covered the earth lasted forty days and forty nights. In Korea there's a story about a bear that became a woman by living in a cave for 100 days, eating only garlic and mugwort. Greek mythological creatures called Hecatoncheires have fifty heads and a hundred hands that hold clouds, storms, and shook seas.

Mythological heroes also have magic swords. AA had the flaming sword Lightbringer, Rhydderch Hale had a flaming sword too called Dyrnwyn. If drawn by a worthy person, the fire would help his cause. If he was found unworthy, the fire would consume him.

For the most part I agree with this... with the caveat that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence.

ETA. In our current story we have a guy that is said to have mated with and breastfed on a giant. And females of a family that only sleep with bears. There’s no real proof that any of these things occurred. But odds are they are symbolic of things done by our current characters. 

[Lady Dyanna]

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe this is how the original Ice got lost? It was used to kill the Others / the Long Night back then and vanished with them, i.e. it was created with (blood?) magic for one purpose only?

Definitely possible, I’d say. At least that the sword was created with magic. I’m not so certain that it would disappear though. Even a losing blade simply shattered, though it wasn’t magical. Our on page evidence so far only seems to support the idea that is only upon defeat that a spell is broken, as we see this happen when Sam kills the ww. However as for the blade, originally the sword remains as Sam notes how cold it is. But it’s never mentioned again. 

Quote

[The blood magic being the sacrifice Bran witnessed in his dream. Of the last hero, aka Bran the Builder giving his life so mankind prevails ...]

But then why would we not see a sword in that scene? Doesn’t it seem more likely that the sacrifice was to the weirnet (the tree’s right there ya know) rather than to an unseen magical sword? 

Quote

It is the sign of the immature man that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while mature man humbly wants to live for one.*
 

*quoted from memory.

As Maester Aemon says... Kill the boy and let the man be born. But, oh... wait... that’s Jon’s story, isn’t it? 

Maybe that’s because JON is the one with the imagery as being a Green/Summer King, whereas the tale of the Nights King is reflected in Bran’s story line? It’s all right there in his coma dream. Just like Dany manages to actually, physically, on page, create dragons from an egg. Why are we looking to the stars when it already happened? 

[Lady Dyanna]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm just going with the old tradition that duels are fought at dawn, rather than sunset.  If the blood streaked sky is a reference to the death of Arthur; then possibly this event is the trigger for the return of the White Walkers; since what follows is the storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death.

Maybe I’m too used to Westerns. I thought duels occurred at high noon. 

My concern with this idea is that if I’m remembering correctly, the battle occurs in the first part of the dream, but the blood streaked sky and rose petals follow immediately after Lyanna’s death, which occurs in the second more symbolic half of the dream. 

[Lady Dyanna]

We seem to be going a bit off reservation here guys. It’s great that we all have such wonderfully creative ideas but we aren’t doing our due diligence to stress test the theories against the lens of what the book actually says.

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Just kinda curious as to what you think about Red Rain then? 

That is simple. You need to add blood to rain to make it red.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

This seems to be a fairly sound hypothesis. Except for the fact that if Valyrian steel breaks the spell holding a white walker together, and their swords are a magical creation, why would that sword not have been shattered? Or evaporated. Or whatever exactly it is that happens when a ww gets shanked. 

Well, there is the legend of the last hero and the legend of AA and I don't think they are different versions of the same story.  I think the sword ICE is hidden in the crypts of Winterfell and the Dawn sword may be the sword forged by AA.   

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Maybe I’m too used to Westerns. I thought duels occurred at high noon. 

My concern with this idea is that if I’m remembering correctly, the battle occurs in the first part of the dream, but the blood streaked sky and rose petals follow immediately after Lyanna’s death, which occurs in the second more symbolic half of the dream. 

LOL!  That is the cowboy version.  The English version is dawn. 

The dream starts out with Lyanna screaming/birth of Jon; then the blood streaked sky/the death of the sword of the morning; then the storm of petals/the death of Jon and the arrival of the storm of petals/WWs and wights.  Which is pretty much the state when we last see Jon.   

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

We seem to be going a bit off reservation here guys. It’s great that we all have such wonderfully creative ideas but we aren’t doing our due diligence to stress test the theories against the lens of what the book actually says.

Right, rainbows symbolic of transitions...

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well, there is the legend of the last hero and the legend of AA and I don't think they are different versions of the same story.  I think the sword ICE is hidden in the crypts of Winterfell and the Dawn sword may be the sword forged by AA.   

Yes. I agree. Though I must admit that I have found nothing that definitively excludes AA and the LH from being one and the same, it doesn’t feel likely to me. Especially since we have multiple different versions of the hero. For example I see the LH in Jon, but AA matches better with Dany and her dragons.

As for the swords... I keep returning to the fact that Ned went all the way to Starfall to return Dawn. I mean Ned is a pretty honorable guy but that still seems to go way above and beyond what would be expected of him, even with a magical sword.  Also, from what I’ve observed when a magical sword is defeated it tends to either shatter or go back into hiding. Did Ned return a broken sword? Or could it be that Arthur was not defeated? (I’m looking at you, Mance.)

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  That is the cowboy version.  The English version is dawn. 

The dream starts out with Lyanna screaming/birth of Jon; then the blood streaked sky/the death of the sword of the morning; then the storm of petals/the death of Jon and the arrival of the storm of petals/WWs and wights.  Which is pretty much the state when we last see Jon.   

Thanks. I probably need to go in and reread that passage. 

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

So.... If I’m reading this correctly, it seems you are telling me that you are completely willing to ignore the textual evidence that I’ve provided because it doesn’t agree with your opinion? There are multiple roles from legend being carried out by our current characters

I am just giving my opinion. Just because it differs from yours and you don't like it doesn't make it any less valid. I never ignore text. I just happen to interpret it differently than you.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

As for the swords... I keep returning to the fact that Ned went all the way to Starfall to return Dawn. I mean Ned is a pretty honorable guy but that still seems to go way above and beyond what would be expected of him, even with a magical sword.  Also, from what I’ve observed when a magical sword is defeated it tends to either shatter or go back into hiding. Did Ned return a broken sword? Or could it be that Arthur was not defeated? (I’m looking at you, Mance.)

Yes he returns the sword to Ashera Dayne.  Perhaps he thinks his victory over Arthur was no victory or his own code of honor dictates that the sword  belongs to House Dayne regardless.  He couldn't return Arthuir's body, but he could return the sword.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

My thinking on this is that the sword of the LH was made or iron.  This is the sword that shattered not unlike the fight between Waymar and the WW.  Then the cotf gave the LH a weapon made of obsidian which he used to defeat Winter.  Then the LH claimed that sword ICE giving him dominion over the WWs and making him the first king of winter.     

Perhaps you're right. My thoughts were an attempt at exploring possible reasons why the original Ice is missing. What happened to it? Is it hidden somewhere waiting for someone worthy to take it up just like Dawn? 

We don't know if Valyrian steel can withstand the blades of white walkers. Sam found an annual that mentioned dragonsteel, but it hasn't been confirmed yet if they are the same thing.

[Lady Dyanna]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I am just giving my opinion. Just because it differs from yours and you don't like it doesn't make it any less valid. I never ignore text. I just happen to interpret it differently than you.

Of course it doesn’t make it any less valid. We are looking at the exact same symbolism and I can see that it could refer to a celestial event. But I also see that it has already symbolically occurred with Drogo’s funeral pyre. That makes me question why we are looking for it to occur twice. There also seems to be some territory that we can explore down this road that I think could be rewarding. But it would require suspending judgement and considering some new ideas. I’m just trying to point out that mine is a valid interpretation as well.