Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Lady Dyanna]

This may seem completely unrelated, but have any of you all watched The Witcher on Netflix? One of the characters undergoes a transition that seems exceptionally relevant to the current conversation. It brought ASOIAF to mind as I was watching.

Spoiler

In essence, one must exchange their own fertility in order to fuel their transformation. Though if Varys is any indication apparently you can steal someone else’s too. Wonder whose transition his forced sacrifice might have enabled...

 

[Lady Dyanna]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Do you think Melisandre is a fire wight like Beric, but wears a glamor so that we don't see a corpse? If so, maybe she's using light to reflect the glamor and that's why she shines?

Nope. It was an intriguing idea to consider, but I’d say that she’s a closer match to Thoros than she is to Beric. And instinctually I find myself equating her in my mind to a Shadowbinder. She’s just more familiar with how the magic works.

I think that @LynnS is onto something when she mentions that Mel is also using up her own life force. The energy needs to come from somewhere. If Planetos follows the same basic scientific principles as earth, then magic is purely the manipulation of energy. And energy is never created or destroyed. Only transformed. She had to get the energy from somewhere. Just because Mel is capable of using glamours that doesn’t make it the only thing she is capable of magically. I think that the ruby works as a crystal for Mel. It allows/assists  her to control and direct the flow of energy.

Crazy Connections:

Why am I now stuck on Rhaegar’s seventh ruby here?

Are the shadows that Mel creates in essence the same thing as the white walkers? Or maybe better said are white walkers shadows that have found a work around to be able to bind themselves to a temporary body? It’s been speculated before that in essence the ww shell appears to be made from frozen atmosphere. Are the ww really just ice made flesh thru sacrifice in the same as Dragons are fire made flesh?

ETA... Is that why Moquorro looks burnt. He stole the energy from himself to fuel his magic. (There’s always a price) 

For bonus points... Bat Shit Crazy... When MMD was predicting that Dany was barren... was she saying that under the assumption that Dany would use her own fertility to fuel the sacrifice to wake the dragons? Only MMD taught her too well. Dany realized the truth of the situation... only death can pay for life... just in time to substitute MMD for herself at the end. This choice then impacted the outcome? Kinda like Mel first glanced Stannis’s defeat at the BotBW. But didn’t originally see him killing Renley. She assumed when she had the later vision that it was a way to avert the other vision. Just in this case it made it come true. In this case I wonder if the BotBW was just gonna happen no matter Renley’s fate

[Lady Dyanna]

Totally cracked....

What if Ramsey is actually the child left behind in payment for plucking a flower without permission? Roose did rape his mother. And he did get left behind as repayment. And has managed to become the heir to Winterfell.

Are the assumptions that we make about each character resulting in us placing them in the incorrect archetype? Why do we have all these archetypes and tales in the first place? 

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Are the shadows that Mel creates in essence the same thing as the white walkers? Or maybe better said are white walkers shadows that have found a work around to be able to bind themselves to a temporary body? It’s been speculated before that in essence the ww shell appears to be made from frozen atmosphere. Are the ww really just ice made flesh thru sacrifice in the same as Dragons are fire made flesh?

Remember that it is not clear whether the White Walkers come with the cold or the cold comes with them?

Kind of a reverse Borg situation. When the Borg arrive, temperatues rise, when the White Walkers arrive, it gets colder.

If the White Walkers were shadows, who created them?

The Three Eyed Raven?

[Lady Dyanna]

29 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Remember that it is not clear whether the White Walkers come with the cold or the cold comes with them?

Kind of a reverse Borg situation. When the Borg arrive, temperatues rise, when the White Walkers arrive, it gets colder.

Hmmm. But isn’t it clear to the reader to a certain extent even if they haven’t figured that part out in the books? I ask that honestly, because at some point in my head it’s become that the ww bring the cold. But I’m not sure if I know what exactly swayed my opinion. 

29 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If the White Walkers were shadows, who created them?

The Three Eyed Raven?

I can’t rule that out, but it doesn’t feel right to me. I suspect that as we have discussed prior that the 3EC is just an avatar for Bloodraven. Not like he has much other choice in travel arrangements. Why else would so many other people need to help Bran to get to him?

Is it possible that we see our “How To” process being fulfilled by Mel? Why would we assume a difference in the method just because the energy is gathered from another source? I would think that it would be someone like a woods witch, possibly one of the correct lineage, that was overseeing the process. We do hear about human women laying with the others to create halfbreeds. 

 

 

[alienarea]

9 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Hmmm. But isn’t it clear to the reader to a certain extent even if they haven’t figured that part out in the books? I ask that honestly, because at some point in my head it’s become that the ww bring the cold. But I’m not sure if I know what exactly swayed my opinion. 

I can’t rule that out, but it doesn’t feel right to me. I suspect that as we have discussed prior that the 3EC is just an avatar for Bloodraven. Not like he has much other choice in travel arrangements. Why else would so many other people need to help Bran to get to him?

Is it possible that we see our “How To” process being fulfilled by Mel? Why would we assume a difference in the method just because the energy is gathered from another source? I would think that it would be someone like a woods witch, possibly one of the correct lineage, that was overseeing the process. We do hear about human women laying with the others to create halfbreeds. 

 

 

Melisandre, female = Fire

X, male = Ice

Because of symmetry I demand the "Ice magician" to be male.

Maybe it has been Bran all the time? Because the previous Brandon Stark has been killed not by fire but by the fire side, the current Brandon Stark takes revenge through ice?

I can't get the (paraphrased) prophecy of "father and son being sacrificed so both die kings"  out of my head, and that Aerys triggered something he didn't foresee when killing the Starks.

If Bran is the (bad?) ice magician and ends up king of whatever in the end, this is much more in line with a dark ending Omen style.

Of course, thr hacks jumped to wrong conclusions from what they were told and what they didn't know.

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Melisandre, female = Fire

X, male = Ice

Because of symmetry I demand the "Ice magician" to be male.

Maybe it has been Bran all the time? Because the previous Brandon Stark has been killed not by fire but by the fire side, the current Brandon Stark takes revenge through ice?

I can't get the (paraphrased) prophecy of "father and son being sacrificed so both die kings"  out of my head, and that Aerys triggered something he didn't foresee when killing the Starks.

If Bran is the (bad?) ice magician and ends up king of whatever in the end, this is much more in line with a dark ending Omen style.

Of course, thr hacks jumped to wrong conclusions from what they were told and what they didn't know.

Well, I do have the somewhat unpopular opinion that Bran is the one fulfilling the prophecy for the nights king. The tale matches too closely to Bran’s coma dream to be random. And it’s not the only one.

I would like to make an alternative suggestion for the prophecy of two kings to raise a dragon. It already happened. First Aerys and then Viserys. (Makes me wonder if Rhagar intentionally started the war in order to get himself dead, then for his son to die.)

And this might sound crazy but I wonder if that’s not backwards? Westeros has mostly Witches, only a few wizards noted. Yet when we get to Essos and Qarth in particular it’s warlocks. Plus we have all of these histories of Dragon Lords having armies of bastards. (Did Queen Alysane unintentionally screw her own family over ... hmmm .... oopsies) what if dragon breeding is actually passed to daughters paternally and skin changing is passed to sons maternally? And somehow they got it backwards?

ETA. It would explain how the error crept in with the translation. It wasn’t gender specific.

[LynnS]

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Sansa V

Sansa had never seen the sept so crowded, nor so brightly lit; great shafts of rainbow-colored sunlight slanted down through the crystals in the high windows, and candles burned on every side, their little flames twinkling like stars. The Mother's altar and the Warrior's swam in light, but Smith and Crone and Maid and Father had their worshipers as well, and there were even a few flames dancing below the Stranger's half-human face . . . for what was Stannis Baratheon, if not the Stranger come to judge them? Sansa visited each of the Seven in turn, lighting a candle at each altar, and then found herself a place on the benches between a wizened old washerwoman and a boy no older than Rickon, dressed in the fine linen tunic of a knight's son. The old woman's hand was bony and hard with callus, the boy's small and soft, but it was good to have someone to hold on to. The air was hot and heavy, smelling of incense and sweat, crystal-kissed and candle-bright; it made her dizzy to breathe it.

She knew the hymn; her mother had taught it to her once, a long time ago in Winterfell. She joined her voice to theirs.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray,

stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know a better day.

Gentle Mother, strength of women,

help our daughters through this fray,

soothe the wrath and tame the fury,

teach us all a kinder way.

Across the city, thousands had jammed into the Great Sept of Baelor on Visenya's Hill, and they would be singing too, their voices swelling out over the city, across the river, and up into the sky. Surely the gods must hear us, she thought.

 

It seems the new gods are paired together:  Warrior and Mother, Smith and Crone, Maid and Father.  The Stranger comes to judge according to Sansa.  You can see in the Mother's Hymn why they are paired.  Sansa sings this song to Sandor when he attacks her and the septon at Castle Black begins to sing it as  battle begins; before being shut down by Donal Noye.   

It's interesting that Sansa thinks the gods must hear the singing of so many people.  The fracturing of the light reminds me that the songs of ice and fire are fractures or movements of the greater song that must be reintegrated.   

[Melifeather]

Previously I had thought wights raised by ice were the flip side of the stone men. Ice wights are walking corpses while stone men are living men trapped in stone, but they are also "dead men walking" none the less like those on death row are often called. Both are affected by magic in the air. The ice wights are animated by magic carried by the cold air while the foggy air of the Sorrow's carries Garin's Curse. But since the stone men are yet alive inside their shells, they technically aren't wights.

That article where GRRM calls Beric a fire wight has really changed the way that I view stone men, Beric, Melisandre, Lady Stoneheart, and Coldhands - maybe even Bloodraven. If Bloodraven is a wight, then he might not be the three eyed crow after all. Yes, he's obviously a greenseer, but did the Children kill him along with his ranging party, and then resurrect him in order to use him? His relationship to crows and ravens while still walking amongst the living seems to indicate that he was a skinchanger. Are human greenseers the only type of greenseer that can see through the trees?

Jojen told Bran that he was a greenseer by birth, but that the 3EC opened his third eye. 

I hope I'm not wandering too far away from the rainbow discussion, but I do think this is relevant, because it is magic we're discussing. 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Previously I had thought wights raised by ice were the flip side of the stone men. Ice wights are walking corpses while stone men are living men trapped in stone, but they are also "dead men walking" none the less like those on death row are often called. Both are affected by magic in the air. The ice wights are animated by magic carried by the cold air while the foggy air of the Sorrow's carries Garin's Curse. But since the stone men are yet alive inside their shells, they technically aren't wights.

That article where GRRM calls Beric a fire wight has really changed the way that I view stone men, Beric, Melisandre, Lady Stoneheart, and Coldhands - maybe even Bloodraven. If Bloodraven is a wight, then he might not be the three eyed crow after all. Yes, he's obviously a greenseer, but did the Children kill him along with his ranging party, and then resurrect him in order to use him? His relationship to crows and ravens while still walking amongst the living seems to indicate that he was a skinchanger. Are human greenseers the only type of greenseer that can see through the trees?

Jojen told Bran that he was a greenseer by birth, but that the 3EC opened his third eye. 

I hope I'm not wandering too far away from the rainbow discussion, but I do think this is relevant, because it is magic we're discussing. 

And going back to the rainbow:

If we have greenseers, maybe Melisandre is a redseer?

Complementary colours, you know

Still missing a purpleseer.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If we have greenseers, maybe Melisandre is a redseer?

I'm fairly convinced she's a wight raised by fire.

[Back in Black-Snow]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I would like to make an alternative suggestion for the prophecy of two kings to raise a dragon. It already happened. First Aerys and then Viserys. (Makes me wonder if Rhagar intentionally started the war in order to get himself dead, then for his son to die.)

Please explain this. Because I'm standing in the batters' box, and the curve ball that just went by clearly missed the plate (in my opinion), but the umpire still called it a strike. I don't understand.

[Back in Black-Snow]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Westeros has mostly Witches, only a few wizards noted. Yet when we get to Essos and Qarth in particular it’s warlocks.

Are these not all the same? If not, what is the difference?

[Back in Black-Snow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sansa sings this song to Sandor when he attacks her and the septon at Castle Black begins to sing it as  battle begins; before being shut down by Donal Noye. 

Huh?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Travis said:

Huh?

Sansa sings the Hymn of the Mother when Sandor attacks her before leaving King's Landing.  In the text he seems very close to killing her and asks her to sing a song, being the little songbird that he always calls her.  This song cuts off his attack and he leaves her. 

In Jon's case, they are preparing for battle and the septon starts singing the same hymn.  Donal Noye cuts him off because he want the NW charged up for the fight, rather than standing down as suggested by the song..

I'm just noting that Sansa pairs Warrior and the Mother in the Sept of Baelor.  The Mother attempts to sue for peace with the Warrior.

[alienarea]

In another time and space, a Rainbow is a splinter of Deep Purple.

[Back in Black-Snow]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sansa sings the Hymn of the Mother when Sandor attacks her before leaving King's Landing.  In the text he seems very close to killing her and asks her to sing a song, being the little songbird that he always calls her.  This song cuts off his attack and he leaves her. 

In Jon's case, they are preparing for battle and the septon starts singing the same hymn.  Donal Noye cuts him off because he want the NW charged up for the fight, rather than standing down as suggested by the song..

I'm just noting that Sansa pairs Warrior and the Mother in the Sept of Baelor.  The Mother attempts to sue for peace with the Warrior.

Okay. I misread your post. I thought you meant Sansa sang the song to the Hound at Castle Black. Now that I've reread it, I realise my mistake.

[Lady Dyanna]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

It seems the new gods are paired together:  Warrior and Mother, Smith and Crone, Maid and Father.  The Stranger comes to judge according to Sansa.  You can see in the Mother's Hymn why they are paired.  Sansa sings this song to Sandor when he attacks her and the septon at Castle Black begins to sing it as  battle begins; before being shut down by Donal Noye.   

It's interesting that Sansa thinks the gods must hear the singing of so many people.  The fracturing of the light reminds me that the songs of ice and fire are fractures or movements of the greater song that must be reintegrated.   

They are paired in this song, but I don’t know that I’ve ever seen them paired elsewhere. Am I misremembering? 

[Lady Dyanna]

@Melifeather  I’m not ignoring you. I just need to let this run through my head a bit more to explain how what I’m seeing might relate to what you’re seeing. Basically, what I think it boils down to is that this is the Song of Ice and Fire. And they are diametrically opposed. The stone men and the Squishers are maybe the Story of Land and Sea? 

[Lady Dyanna]

10 hours ago, Travis said:

Please explain this. Because I'm standing in the batters' box, and the curve ball that just went by clearly missed the plate (in my opinion), but the umpire still called it a strike. I don't understand.

I kinda feel the same way about that analogy, but I’ll try to explain it better. 

One of the things that we hear About the dragons, paraphrased is that it takes two kings to raise a dragon from stone. The first king must die and then the son also die as king. As this frequently comes from Melisandre we tend to interpret this as being something that still needs to happen and seems to get stuck in Stannis’s storyline. Especially since Melisandre is so interested in his bloodline. Alien Area was looking at this being somehow related to the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark. Two ice deaths at the hand of fire. Are the same requirements needed to wake the Others as to wake a dragon? But we already see this prophecy being fulfilled by Dany. What I’m suggesting is that since ice and fire seem to almost mirror each other. If it takes the sacrifice of two kings to raise a dragon, does it take the sacrifice of two Queens to raise a white walker? BTW... WTF did ever happen to Lyarra Stark?   
 

Does that make any more sense?