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Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow


Black Crow

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10 hours ago, Travis said:

Are these not all the same? If not, what is the difference?

I can’t answer that for sure. But in Westeros there are woods witches and hedge wizards. In Essos there are Warlocks, Mages and Shadow binders. Why change nomenclature if it’s not significant? 

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

And going back to the rainbow:

If we have greenseers, maybe Melisandre is a redseer?

Complementary colours, you know ;)

 

And of course, as we all know an inability to distinguish between Green and Red is the most common form of colour-blindness

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20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And of course, as we all know an inability to distinguish between Green and Red is the most common form of colour-blindness

This seems potentially significant but I really have no clue why. Just kinda fits with the motif. Lots of noteworthy eye colors. For the CotF and the Stark wolf pups it’s red and green  

 

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10 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

They are paired in this song, but I don’t know that I’ve ever seen them paired elsewhere. Am I misremembering? 

I haven't looked extensively for examples of how the Seven are worshipped.  From Sansa's POV it seems that each of the seven have their own hymn. So far, |I've only come across the mother's song. Martin has a habit of pairing things together as in Quaithe's warning to Dany.  

I'm curious as to why Tyrion chose to name himself after the founder of this religion.  Why is he Hugor on the Hill?

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I haven't looked extensively for examples of how the Seven are worshipped.  From Sansa's POV it seems that each of the seven have their own hymn. So far, |I've only come across the mother's song.

Honestly that’s the only song that I can remember specifically discussed at any point related to the Faith, but I’m sure there are many things I’ve forgotten. Still, though I hate to do research myself, especially at the brainstorming stage, unless at least someone having a vague recollection of that idea holding true. 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Martin has a habit of pairing things together as in Quaithe's warning to Dany.  

:agree:But is that done to actually pair the items together or because of writing style do you think? The pairing of the warrior and the mother  isn’t logical to my mind. And I do not recall seeing it elsewhere. If we choose to pair it would make sense to me to pair male with female, but putting the warrior and mother together is mixing up the part of the life span that they represent. Young men are soldiers and go to war, then come home to learn a trade and build a family,  progressing into the role of Father and passing along guidance. You see the same with progression from maiden to mother to crone. Instinctively I’d say the pairing would look more like...

Warrior .... Maiden

Smith .... Mother

Father .... Crone. 

But in the end the Stranger comes for all. 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm curious as to why Tyrion chose to name himself after the founder of this religion.  Why is he Hugor on the Hill?

Do you remember if he names himself intentionally? I can’t remember if he’s the one who links it to the Faith or if we as readers do. I’d be interested in reading more of the legends and histories of the Faith to see if we can find symbolic similarities. 

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20 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I can’t answer that for sure. But in Westeros there are woods witches and hedge wizards. In Essos there are Warlocks, Mages and Shadow binders. Why change nomenclature if it’s not significant? 

Cultural differences in how 'practicioners' are seen?

I think its pretty clear that is some parts, at least, of Essos, there is significant cultural acceptance, for good or bad, whereas in Westeros 'magic' is somewhat more dismissed, culturally.
The difference in cultural recognition is likely to also lead to differences in capability due to support, training, financing, etc. So even if the nomenclature was not 'intended' to show significant differences, I'd say its likely it does anyway. 

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9 hours ago, corbon said:

Cultural differences in how 'practicioners' are seen?

I think its pretty clear that is some parts, at least, of Essos, there is significant cultural acceptance, for good or bad, whereas in Westeros 'magic' is somewhat more dismissed, culturally.
The difference in cultural recognition is likely to also lead to differences in capability due to support, training, financing, etc. So even if the nomenclature was not 'intended' to show significant differences, I'd say its likely it does anyway. 

Not to mention that you don’t see anything anywhere close to the House of the Undying in Westeros. No sick blue hearts beating on a table. No pretty colored cocktails that taste like rotten meat and semen. (Unless you’re somehow related to Euron.) For that matter how do the blue trees with black bark work exactly? I mean we’ve got some freaky opposition going on between those things and the weirwoods. Like complete opposite end of the spectrum stuff, no? Negative images of one another. Should we be able to extrapolate that out into the rest of how they work. I mean these suckers naturally grow in a forested area of Essos that is rumored to have elven like creatures similar to the CotF (does the creature handing out cocktails at the HotU ring a bell here?)

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15 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Do you remember if he names himself intentionally?

There is actually no mention of Hugor in Tyrion's pov until DwD.  This is where he takes the name:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion III

Illyrio spoke up quickly. "Yollo, he is called."

Yollo? Yollo sounds like something you might name a monkey. Worse, it was a Pentoshi name, and any fool could see that Tyrion was no Pentoshi. "In Pentos I am Yollo," he said quickly, to make what amends he could, "but my mother named me Hugor Hill."

"Are you a little king or a little bastard?" asked Haldon.

This is what Tyrion says about the Faith:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

"This is Andalos, my friend. The land your Andals came from. They took it from the hairy men who were here before them, cousins to the hairy men of Ib. The heart of Hugor's ancient realm lies north of us, but we are passing through its southern marches. In Pentos, these are called the Flatlands. Farther east stand the Velvet Hills, whence we are bound."

Andalos. The Faith taught that the Seven themselves had once walked the hills of Andalos in human form. "The Father reached his hand into the heavens and pulled down seven stars," Tyrion recited from memory, "and one by one he set them on the brow of Hugor of the Hill to make a glowing crown."

Magister Illyrio gave him a curious look. "I did not dream my little friend was so devout."

 

There is some interesting stuff here.  The business of pulling down the star to make a glowing crown.  This sounds like the rotation of Planetos and the star falling down behind a hill; the glowing crown might be the sun coming up at dawn.  I'm reminded of places like Stonehenge only without the standing stones.  Also that each of the stars walked the hills in human form. This could be the symbolism behind Renly's rainbow guard.  There is also a king made by the Father who wears the glowing crown.  Whomever Hugor was the  High Septon is meant to occupy that place.

This is the other things Tyrion says about the seven:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

Tyrion thought of Tysha. He glanced out at the fields where once the gods had walked. "What sort of gods make rats and plagues and dwarfs?" Another passage from The Seven-Pointed Star came back to him. "The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the Mother made her fertile, and the Crone foretold that she would bear the king four-and-forty mighty sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the Smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates."

"Your Smith must have been Rhoynish," Illyrio quipped. "The Andals learned the art of working iron from the Rhoynar who dwelt along the river. This is known."

 

    

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My insights on this stuff keep getting crazier and crazier. What’s to stop a greenseer after a certain amount of time from changing the future to be whatever tf they want it to be? They have all of the tools they need to do it. The only thing that they cannot account for is personal choice. But they can just keep fixing it an endless amount of times. Eventually it’s gotta turn out the right way somehow right? I mean can you see how that reframes everything? What happens when there’s more than one greenseer? And they want different things? Can you even grasp the chaos that could cause. Once you’re plugged in time is yours. The only thing that causes you to stop is... death. You’re alternate futures that you can process is limited to what fits into the remaining time of your lifespan. It’s a time limited eye of whatchamacallit. Continuous loops. Over and over again. Only changing based on individual choices. It could be anything. Mother fucker. That’s what the new spin off series is. Game of Thrones isn’t over. This is your oh shit moment where the internet breaks. 

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Has Bloodraven been the main character of this series all along and we never realized it? His personal battle to put an end to what is in essence a potentially infinite world war? How many puzzle pieces have been put into place exactly how many times? All these lost and missing characters.... Why tf is Dany still in Essos? Where in the world is Carmen San Die... Er... Uncle Benjen? Why are people roaming aimlessly in the Riverlands? Why did Rhaegar suddenly act like a lunatic? Why did ... any number of things we scratched our head about and wondered what crack our characters were smoking... happen? Because they had to happen that way. That’s where they are needed to be. In essence the world is on pause until we reach the desired outcome with all the puzzle pieces in place. Only then do the time loops cease. When the last greenseer dies. And that’s Bloodraven folks. Wow. 

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The last greenseer or the Last greenseer?

If we were to consider colors as individual or part of gods/god. Each gods domain is signified by a river. Green, Blue, Red for the trident. Blackwater rush at king’s landing and the White Knife in the North. Could other rivers be gods? Where souls flow? Or a family tree, a gods wood, that’s watered by them become a gods avatar? Or that family tree could be climbed and the descendants become ascendants making them immortal like a god?! 9 swords on the old kings of winter crown. 9 rivers in the North if you include the wall as a frozen river and the most southern river at the Neck.... Fever river. Maybe Long and Last river were named after old great houses but they are to be reborn. Or maybe a way to steal a soul back from Death by traveling underneath the frozen river? Jon “Long “ Snow and Bran “Last“ Duran” Stark!

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I'm still picking at the Faith of the Seven and it occurs to me that the seven stars may not be individual stars but a constellation that had meaning to the Faith's early followers.  Martin does seem to be using constellations that exist in the reader's framework like the Ice Dragon (Ouroboros)  and the Sword of the Morning  (Orion's Sword).   The constellation Orion The Hunter/Warrior is also made of seven stars.  Martin gives us a few recognizable, but I'm more curious about the stuff he leaves out. 

It occurs to me that a culture that views the stars within a magical framework would create myths about their gods using constellations.  An example is the Dothraki Stallion that mounts the earth prophecy.  Martin does give us the Stallion constellation and when it rises above the horizon, it might be described as mounting the earth.  

For the sake of argument, I'm going with the premise that the Hunter is the constellation with seven stars that has mystical significance to the Faith.  When it is observed falling beneath the horizon; it could be interpreted that the gods came down from the sky to walk the earth.  At the same time that the sun is rising; giving us the seven colors of dawn as Lady Diana has observed. The glowing crown could .be none other than the sun itself; the source of the refracted light to crown a king.  Indirectly, the Faith are  sun worshippers and their king is anointed by god.

The Faith sounds like a relatively new religion.  But is it?  Perhaps it's origin is older than we think.   There are many variations on the Orion myth in different cultures including that was a warrior and a smith.  In the egyptian mythos, he is also Osiris  associated with death and the afterlife.  This seems in keeping with Catelyn's description of the Stranger having a half-human face.  The Stranger and Osiris also serve as judges of the dead.

https://www.ancient.eu/osiris/

We can also associate rainbows with inundations and catastrophic flood.  Such as Noah's biblical flood or the Hammer of the Waters and Garin's tale of the Rhoyne.  The Rhoynar would seem to be the ancestors of Hugor Hill but I suspect that the religion didn't originate with them.  Instead we see it in it's evolved and current form.

Which brings me to Tyrion and his mocking adoption of the name of the founder.  Recall when Quaithe tells Dany about the sun's son and Mirri Maaz Duur's prophecy about the sun rising in the west and setting in the east: 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

They departed Pentos by the Sunrise Gate, though Tyrion Lannister never glimpsed the sunrise. "It will be as if you had never come to Pentos, my little friend," promised Magister Illyrio, as he drew shut the litter's purple velvet drapes. "No man must see you leave the city, as no man saw you enter."

 

 

  

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14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

My insights on this stuff keep getting crazier and crazier. What’s to stop a greenseer after a certain amount of time from changing the future to be whatever tf they want it to be? They have all of the tools they need to do it. The only thing that they cannot account for is personal choice. But they can just keep fixing it an endless amount of times. Eventually it’s gotta turn out the right way somehow right? I mean can you see how that reframes everything? What happens when there’s more than one greenseer? And they want different things? Can you even grasp the chaos that could cause. Once you’re plugged in time is yours. The only thing that causes you to stop is... death. You’re alternate futures that you can process is limited to what fits into the remaining time of your lifespan. It’s a time limited eye of whatchamacallit. Continuous loops. Over and over again. Only changing based on individual choices. It could be anything. Mother fucker. That’s what the new spin off series is. Game of Thrones isn’t over. This is your oh shit moment where the internet breaks. 

I think I speculated a bit in this direction regarding the White Walkers.

The greenseers go into the weirwood trees. The weirwoods do not die naturally, as far as we know. Badically, greenseers are on eternal netflix then. When a weirwood is killed, his spirit roams free, and maybee ends up in some animal or human.

But, maybe some greenseers don't. Instead of ending up in some living being, they master the air / fog? And materialize as White Walkers ...

They want to kill all life because then the weirwoods are safe and they can go back to Netflix.

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