Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Lady Dyanna]

12 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Your taste in music is confusing

It confuses me too. It’s somewhat eclectic. 

Sound like Sam and Gilly? 
 

ETA. Just be grateful that I’m not pulling out NIN to help describe it.  

[Lady Dyanna]

Did GRRM write his very own Rock Opera hidden in a morality tale hidden in a Sci Fi series hidden in a Fantasy Epic?

[alienarea]

21 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It confuses me too. It’s somewhat eclectic. 

Sound like Sam and Gilly? 
 

ETA. Just be grateful that I’m not pulling out NIN to help describe it.  

 

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=J7_0f3C5PI8&feature=share

[LynnS]

On 9/14/2020 at 2:55 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

I still need to look at that article.

Sorry I've been very busy over the last week.  I'll be helping out some elderly neighbors this week with groceries, birthdays and cooking.  

I'm trying to stick as closely as possible to the OP because I think there is some good stuff to be mined there.  Melifeather has brought up some interesting points about the wanderers and Alien Area has made some observations about the Stark's association with the underworld or under the sea, if you will.  Their association with death and the Stranger.  

I'm still curious about the Faith, the early versions of the warrior's son's, also called The Stars.  Melisandre's spin of the Bleeding Stars in changing the original prediction, to the Bleeding Star (singular).  I'd like to have some discussion on why Tryion uses the alias Hugor.

I'll try to comment in a few days depending on how my friend's hip surgery turns out.

 

[Lady Dyanna]

I think this just gave me a whole new perspective on Lyanna. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Alien Area has made some observations about the Stark's association with the underworld or under the sea, if you will.

Speaking of the great northern sea...this has been a topic of great interest to me since I began studying the titled chapters starting with the very first chapter of AFFC, The Prophet. Damphair is drowning and resuscitating followers:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

His drowned men formed a circle around the dead boy, praying. Norjen worked his arms whilst Rus knelt astride him, pumping on his chest, but all moved aside for Aeron. He pried apart the boy's cold lips with his fingers and gave Emmond the kiss of life, and again, and again, until the sea came gushing from his mouth. The boy began to cough and spit, and his eyes blinked open, full of fear.

Another one returned. It was a sign of the Drowned God's favor, men said. Every other priest lost a man from time to time, even Tarle the Thrice-Drowned, who had once been thought so holy that he was picked to crown a king. But never Aeron Greyjoy. He was the Damphair, who had seen the god's own watery halls and returned to tell of it. "Rise," he told the sputtering boy as he slapped him on his naked back. "You have drowned and been returned to us. What is dead can never die."

"But rises." The boy coughed violently, bringing up more water. "Rises again." Every word was bought with pain, but that was the way of the world; a man must fight to live. "Rises again." Emmond staggered to his feet. "Harder. And stronger."

 

Wights are given the kiss of life and the magical breath resurrects them. The ice wights receive the cold rising wind while fire wights receive a breath of fire. When the Biblical Jesus instructed his disciples to eat of his body and blood, they reenacted the ritual by eating bread and drinking wine, doing so in memory of him. Christ died as a sacrificial lamb so that all believers would receive the promise of resurrection and everlasting life. The wights receiving this breath might be in memory of some celestial event. Perhaps the birth of magic when the meteor struck planetos? 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Sorry I've been very busy over the last week.  I'll be helping out some elderly neighbors this week with groceries, birthdays and cooking.  

I'm trying to stick as closely as possible to the OP because I think there is some good stuff to be mined there.  Melifeather has brought up some interesting points about the wanderers and Alien Area has made some observations about the Stark's association with the underworld or under the sea, if you will.  Their association with death and the Stranger.  

I'm still curious about the Faith, the early versions of the warrior's son's, also called The Stars.  Melisandre's spin of the Bleeding Stars in changing the original prediction, to the Bleeding Star (singular).  I'd like to have some discussion on why Tryion uses the alias Hugor.

I'll try to comment in a few days depending on how my friend's hip surgery turns out.

 

First. I think my mind is blown by the amount of work that went into not only designing that machine but in learning to play it.

Second. I hope things go well for your friends and the recover well.

Third. I seem to be the one having difficulty sticking with the topic at hand. I find myself looking for a random thoughts thread but we don’t have one thread here. 

[Lady Dyanna]

For the love of all that is holy. Is there not some way that we can find to contain ALL of the work that ALL of us have already done on some of this stuff where ALL of us actually have access to and divide the topics out a bit? I feel like I’m perpetually reinventing the wheel here. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Third. I seem to be the one having difficulty sticking with the topic at hand. I find myself looking for a random thoughts thread but we don’t have one thread here. 

You can start one.

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

You can start one.

I could. But I won’t. Not on this forum. I’ve got no time to deal with nasty comments over putting out an idea that’s not a fully formed theory. I mean I’m a big girl. I can ignore them. But I’d just rather not have to. I’ve had too much experience here with having to. Either that or leave the conversation. 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 minute ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I could. But I won’t. Not on this forum. I’ve got no time to deal with nasty comments over putting out an idea that’s not a fully formed theory. I mean I’m a big girl. I can ignore them. But I’d just rather not have to. I’ve had too much experience here with having to do either that or abandon a conversation after feeling attacked for presenting ideas  

Sorry all went to edit and accidentally quoted myself. Didn’t realize until I reposted. And now I can’t fix it since I can’t delete anything. 

[Lady Dyanna]

Actually. You know what ... This might actually have a solution ...

Hey, @Ran  Us Heresy peeps are some of your longest standing customers. I’m the new girl. I only joined a little over five years ago now. But this thread has been running since God was a boy now. Don’t you think loyalty deserves to be rewarded? Maybe it’s time for Heresy to get its very own dedicated sub-board? Possibly a mod somewhere? I mean c’mon Dude. Throw a Crow a bone here. 

ETA. Maybe as a gesture of goodwill let back some of the heretics who got banned for no really good reason over the years. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Actually. You know what ... This might actually have a solution ...

Hey, @Ran  Us Heresy peeps are some of your longest standing customers. I’m the new girl. I only joined a little over five years ago now. But this thread has been running since God was a boy now. Don’t you think loyalty deserves to be rewarded? Maybe it’s time for Heresy to get its very own dedicated sub-board? Possibly a mod somewhere? I mean c’mon Dude. Throw a Crow a bone here. 

ETA. Maybe as a gesture of goodwill let back some of the heretics who got banned for no really good reason over the years. 

Don’t you think this should come from Black Crow? And he’s never even indicated any interest before.

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Don’t you think this should come from Black Crow? And he’s never even indicated any interest before.

Why? If he isn’t interested in doing it I’m pretty sure he’s confident enough to tell us. I’m just expressing an opinion. Not issuing an edict. Besides, even if it’s not of interest to Black Crow it might be of interest to other Heretics. There kinda are a ton. 

ETA: Just the fact that none of us have killed one another here speaks volumes to his abilities. There’s only one original heresy. 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Why? If he isn’t interested in doing it I’m pretty sure he’s confident enough to tell us. I’m just expressing an opinion. Not issuing an edict. Besides, even if it’s not of interest to Black Crow it might be of interest to other Heretics. There kinda are a ton. 

ETA: Just the fact that none of us have killed one another here speaks volumes to his abilities. There’s only one original heresy. 

I prefer to leave things as they are.

The strength of Heresy lies in its diversity as a thread.

When I started it nine years ago, it was based around an heretical notion that things weren't as popularly believed; essentially that the Wall simply existed as a physical barrier to protect mankind from the horror in the north, that the Starks were the good guys warning of the great white shark, and that Danaerys the Dragonlord was going to be the saviour - unless of course Jon Snow pulled the sword from the stone.

Rather to everyone's surprise it proved popular. In fact Ran closed the first thread [then called The Wall, the Watch and a Heresy] because it was getting stupidly long, and in the same breathe invited me to refresh it, at which point it was posted simply as Heresy 2 and so on., 

However, while normally threads on a particular subject naturally peter out after a while Heresy has continued to evolve organically. While my own interest still focuses on Ice and the Starks, rather than the dragons [who I see as thoroughly bad] the thread is surprisingly broad and generally avoids bloodshed as a result because it encourages open debate rather than entrenched positions.

In short, it works and so don't "fix" it

[LynnS]

This is the prophecy that we first hear from Mel about AA:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

'When the stars bleed" is changed to take advantage of the appearance of the red comet. The red comet is not a star but celestial events which she uses to manipulate the public.  I don't think the 'bleeding stars" are a reference to a celestial event; but rather, the  poor fellows who wear a red star or mark themselves with such.  

So we have the long summer followed by the cold breath of darkness and the return of the bleeding stars  and the warrior's sons (frozen rainbows, dancing and dying).  This supposedly heralds the return of AA with his flaming sword.  

This is what Cersei says about the earlier incarnation of the warrior' sons:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

Lady Merryweather shared the queen's delight, though she had never heard of the Warrior's Sons or the Poor Fellows. "They date from before Aegon's Conquest," Cersei explained to her. "The Warrior's Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort, though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star, red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior's Sons wore rainbow cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith."

 

The swords in an earlier version are strange bedfellows and I don't think their appearance during Aegon's conquest is their 'first' appearance but rather the first recorded appearance.  I'm inclined to think that the swords of the warrior's sons have some kind of kinship with the Dawn Sword as a symbol of their unity although that connection seems to be lost to history.

I think if AA is appearing as a hero with a fiery sword to Mel's Lot, that can't be a good thing given their agenda.  It could be that AA is their champion presents an opposing force to the warrior's sons or Mel is misappropriating the Hero. 

She seems to be seeking a different outcome from past historical evets.

What we have are two seven-pointed stars commemorated within the Faith. A red star (the bloody star) and a crystal that fractures light?  Why do the poor fellows mark themselves with a red star?  Could it be that this does signify the red comet and it has appeared before in prehistory?  That it marks a time when the song of earth (Planetos) was fractured creating the imbalance, the songs of ice and fire?  Could it be that the seven-sided crystal marks the time when the Dawn Sword was forged? 

Does the red star represent the sword forged with blood magic?

 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When the stars bleed" is changed to take advantage of the appearance of the red comet. The red comet is not a star but celestial events which she uses to manipulate the public.  I don't think the 'bleeding stars" are a reference to a celestial event; but rather, the  poor fellows who wear a red star or mark themselves with such.  

So we have the long summer followed by the cold breath of darkness and the return of the bleeding stars  and the warrior's sons (frozen rainbows, dancing and dying).  This supposedly heralds the return of AA with his flaming sword.  

 Very insightful! The carved bleeding seven pointed stars of the Poor Fellows certainly could be the fulfillment of prophecy which does state “stars”, plural, so it cannot be a single comet. That being said, it’s also possible that the bleeding star carvings are done in memory of an older celestial event when the second moon shattered and pieces of it fell to planetos as burning meteors, which were also said to be dragons pouring forth out of the cracked moon. The falling meteors not only looked like burning swords falling, but also could be described as bleeding stars falling. Different cultures and religions adopted their own interpretation of a single shared event. One saw dragons, one saw flaming swords, another saw bleeding stars, and yet another found actual pieces of the meteor and knew it for what it was and witnessed the birth of magic. The imagery at the Black Gate of the weirwood pulling down the moon seems to indicate that the Children and their greenseers are connected to the event. Was Dawn forged as a weapon to defeat magic or was the actual forging to blame for releasing magic?

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

That being said, it’s also possible that the bleeding star carvings are done in memory of an older celestial event when the second moon shattered and pieces of it fell to planetos as burning meteors,

This is what we first hear about the two moons:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. "The moon?"

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

I don't think this moon was a moon at all, but the original red comet.  Moons stay in orbit around the planet and generally don't crash into each other. , But a comet flies close to the sun and this second moon didn't crack until a close fly-by causing the debris to drink in the magic of the sun.  Another close encounter with Planetos with a comet trailing debris could account for the 'bleeding stars'.

If a comet that was is big and bright enough to be considered another moon actually crashed into the existing moon; we'd see the scars of that event in a mis-shaped moon, but we don't see that.  The moon is round and untouched.  On the other hand, the comet on a second fly-by of the moon might appear to collide without ever doing so.  

The other moon is what remains of the original red comet. 

[Melifeather]

37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is what we first hear about the two moons:

I don't think this moon was a moon at all, but the original red comet.  Moons stay in orbit around the planet and generally don't crash into each other. , But a comet flies close to the sun and this second moon didn't crack until a close fly-by causing the debris to drink in the magic of the sun.  Another close encounter with Planetos with a comet trailing debris could account for the 'bleeding stars'.

If a comet that was is big and bright enough to be considered another moon actually crashed into the existing moon; we'd see the scars of that event in a mis-shaped moon, but we don't see that.  The moon is round and untouched.  On the other hand, the comet on a second fly-by of the moon might appear to collide without ever doing so.  

The other moon is what remains of the original red comet. 

I have wondered if planetos itself could be viewed as the sister "moon" to the moon in the Nissa Nissa story, then the celestial event of the red comet striking the moon was viewed as something that happened to or affected both sisters. The comet struck the moon, (or alternately planetos) but the meteors that rained down upon planetos brought magic and forever changing the planet. The scream that Nissa Nissa made was actually the regrettable unintended consequence of the birth of magic. Planetos was now "broken". I go back and forth with this idea and an alternate of there having been two moons after all, because in our real world there are scientists that theorize that our moon was formed when another planet named Thea struck Earth. The red comet could be the remains of "Thea".

[alienarea]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

You can start one.

I thought Heresy is a random thoughts thread?

We usually stray from the op rather soon.