Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Why did the Andal warriors carve seven-sided stars into their flesh when they first invaded Westeros?  Was it to commemorate an event that turned the sky red and blocked out the sun?  Or were they fleeing from their enemies who's strength in fire magic was increased by the passing of the red comet? 

I don't think that they necessarily carved the stars just to go invading Westeros. I think its something they did when going into battle and it may even have been confined to a particular warrior sect rather than Andals at large

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think that they necessarily carved the stars just to go invading Westeros. I think its something they did when going into battle and it may even have been confined to a particular warrior sect rather than Andals at large

It's an open question for me.  Here is something concerning vulcanism that I find very strange:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

 

I would think that a cataclysm of this magnitude would affect the whole planet; turn the sky red and block out the sun; but there is no mention of such effects in Westeros.   

This brings me to Bran's coma dream.  He is so high in the atmosphere that he can see everything in Westeros and Essos.  I think of this as the God's Eye view and here are your sky gods.   These are the gods who can control the winds; conjure up the bar sinister, direct the atmosphere and watch everything from Westeros to Essos.

In the context of Catelyn's view of the red comet; the sky is the face of god.

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. "The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it's an omen of victory for Riverrun—he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue." She sighed. "I wish I had their faith. Crimson
is a Lannister color."

"That thing's not crimson," Ser Brynden said. "Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That's blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.

""Our blood or theirs?"

 

 

[alienarea]

Valyria is kind of like Atlantis, but with volcanoes instead of tidal waves.

Maybe the Andals with the seven pointed stars are the Aeneas equivalent?

[Melifeather]

The bleeding seven-pointed stars carved on the Poor Fellows and the invading Andals before them are symbolic of an ancient celestial event that wiped out a lot of people, the survivors of which created a religion that worshipped the fiery destructive meteors. If you carved this representation on your chest shortly before battle, then you were declaring your intent to bring a fiery wrath of destruction on the people you are invading. That may have been true for the conquering Andals, but what about the Poor Fellows? They haven't amassed into an organized army, but they have been escorting people while they travel, offering protection - the complete opposite of what the bleeding stars represented in the past.

[LynnS]

On 9/16/2020 at 4:54 PM, Melifeather said:

The God's Eye by all appearances looks like a good location for a meteor impact.

It does to me as well, but a very old one.  If you look at photos of impact craters or crater lakes, the younger impacts have ridges around them that look like craters filled with water.  The older craters have eroded ridges.  They would look something like this:

http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/manicouagan.jpg?resize=550%2C434

The other possibility is that the God's Eye is a super volcano something like the Yellowstone super caldera.  These are formed by hot spots deep within the mantle.   The doom of Valyria sounds more like an underground explosion akin to a hotspot or super volcano.  

We know there is geothermal activity in Westeros but why would the holy of holies be located atop a giant caldera?

What I think (and we'll apply the Heisenberg uncertainty principle here) is that certain forms of life were seeded by celestial impacts and the God's Eye is the location of such a place.  The COTF and the Weirwood may have evolved on Planetos; but everything about them seems alien. 

[LynnS]

An interesting article on scarification; marks you as a member of a group; wards against evil evil.

https://hadithi.africa/2019/02/11/the-history-of-scarification-in-africa/  

[LynnS]

On 9/17/2020 at 8:15 AM, LynnS said:

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. "The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it's an omen of victory for Riverrun—he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue." She sighed. "I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color."

"That thing's not crimson," Ser Brynden said. "Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That's blood up there, child, smeared across the sky."

"Our blood or theirs?"

This is the only other reference to a blood streaked sky that occurs in the books.  Now I can't think of Ned's dream as anything other than a premonition of the red comet.  Blood smeared across the face of god reminds me of the weirwoods and their bloody red faces.

The dream seems to be about Lyanna's death, Sir Arthur's death, Ned's death and Jon's death.    Lyanna and Ned only have to live long enough to produce the generation of Stark's the cotf have need of.

I'm also of the mind that no Stark can defeat the Sword of the Morning and the dawn's sword's hidden purpose is to keep the Stark Kings of Winter in check.  So certain conditions that maintain a balance no longer exist.  After 14 years, there is no sword of the morning and no Stark in Winterfell. 

[LynnS]

Here's a random thought going back to Bran's coma dream once again:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

 

I've puzzled over this one for a long time.  How does Bran's soul stay aloft without wings?  Or what kind of wings keep him aloft if not crow's wings? It occurs to me that he doesn't need wings.  He just has to master the winds.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It occurs to me that he doesn't need wings.  He just has to master the winds.

You mean as the White Walkers may do ?

Defeating Fire dragons may need something other than wings. An Ice dragon might be something quite different from a scaly beastie breathing peppermint rather than chill

[LynnS]

22 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The bleeding seven-pointed stars carved on the Poor Fellows and the invading Andals before them are symbolic of an ancient celestial event that wiped out a lot of people, the survivors of which created a religion that worshipped the fiery destructive meteors. If you carved this representation on your chest shortly before battle, then you were declaring your intent to bring a fiery wrath of destruction on the people you are invading. That may have been true for the conquering Andals, but what about the Poor Fellows? They haven't amassed into an organized army, but they have been escorting people while they travel, offering protection - the complete opposite of what the bleeding stars represented in the past.

I think the Andals invaded Westeros because they were forced to flee from the Valyrian Freeholders.  They couldn't withstand the superior force of dragons and valyrian weapons.  Nor could the First Men and COTF withstand the superior force and weapons of the Andals.  The victor writes the history, but even then the history of the Andal invasions at the Citradel is a broken record.  It seems more likely to me that there wasn't just one invasion but three migrations of the Andal diaspora.  Triggered by war, famine or loss of lands as the Valyrians continued their expansion.

So now we have the High Sparrow marshalling an army.  The Poor Fellows are guarding the vulnerable for now.  They are also armed. The difference between them and the Warrior's Sons is money.  They can't afford the kit of silver breastplate, sword and rainbow cloak.  The red star carved into their flesh identifies them as belonging to the same group as the warrior's sons and it's purpose may be to ward off evil.       

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

You mean as the White Walkers may do ?

Defeating Fire dragons may need something other than wings. An Ice dragon might be something quite different from a scaly beastie breathing peppermint rather than chill

Yes, The WW do have an airy fairy feel to them.  Being all light of foot and such.  The only thing that keeps them on the ground is their shell of ice.  If Bran is going to be a sky god or a storm god; he needs to be able to control the icy winds of winter for his own purposes beyond flying.  He has to contend with the breath of the ice dragon.

 

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, The WW do have an airy fairy feel to them.  Being all light of foot and such.  

I was also thinking in terms of “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I was also thinking in terms of “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

And this:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"You'd best go on. We are about to close the gate."

"You do that," Borroq said. "You close it good and tight. They're coming, crow." He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them.

 

I still don't know what to think about the sons and brothers and their relationship to Crastor.

[LynnS]

An eight pointed star:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Dayne.svg

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

A seven pointed star:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Dayne.svg

Its interesting to see the history of the depiction. Originally the artist had a five pointed star. Whoever came up with the drawing thought about it long enough to change the star to one with seven sides connecting the falling star with the Faith.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Its interesting to see the history of the depiction. Originally the artist had a five pointed star. Whoever came up with the drawing thought about it long enough to change the star to one with seven sides connecting the falling star with the Faith.

Wha?  Euron Gryejoy's personal sigil was changed also..

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Greyjoy_(Euron).svg

Peytyr Baelish's personal sigil was also modified, but only slightly.  

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Its interesting to see the history of the depiction. Originally the artist had a five pointed star. Whoever came up with the drawing thought about it long enough to change the star to one with seven sides connecting the falling star with the Faith.

It's an 8-pointed star.  I miscounted.  Why change it at all?  Unless someone is specifically avoiding making a connection to the seven-pointed star.

[LynnS]

Well, here are some meanings associated with an 8-pointed star.  It seems to me the choice isn't random.

https://www.learnreligions.com/octagrams-eight-pointed-stars-96015#:~:text=The Wiccan Wheel of the Yearis commonly represented,before and prepares for the one approaching next.

[LynnS]

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran spread his arms and flew.

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.

"I'm flying!" he cried out in delight.

 

 

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Its interesting to see the history of the depiction. Originally the artist had a five pointed star. Whoever came up with the drawing thought about it long enough to change the star to one with seven sides connecting the falling star with the Faith.

I'm curious about why Euron's personal sigil and the sigil for House Dayne were changed in the wiki.  Surely changes are vetted and there is a reason for changing something in the wiki.  It can't be just willy-nilly.

Looking at Euron's new sigil;  I think it depicts the three eyed crow with the 'blood eye' as the third eye.

As for changing House Dayne's sigil from a 5-pointed star to an 8-poited star;  I think a 7-pointed star would be too on the nose. Along with the house words; it gives too much away.

Since there are no references to an 8-pointed star anywhere in canon except now in the wiki; you have to go to outside sources for a meaning.  Presto change-o, an 8-pointed star has a religious context:

https://www.learnreligions.com/octagrams-eight-pointed-stars-96015#:~:text=The Wiccan Wheel of the Yearis commonly represented,before and prepares for the one approaching next.

The title here is a bit misleading.  Wicca is last on a list of religions.  There are two others that stand out:

Quote

Overlapping Squares

Octagrams formed from overlapping squares often emphasize duality: yin and yang, male and female, spiritual and material. Squares are often connected with the physical world: four elements, four cardinal directions, etc. Together, they can mean both positive and negative aspects of the four elements, for example, and balancing them.

Balancing the elements is certainly an outcome for the SoIaF,

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Buddhism

Buddhists use an eight-spoked wheel to represent the Eightfold Path taught by the Buddha as a means to escape suffering through the breaking of attachments. These paths are right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.

 

 In other words, some sort of eightfold path that makes someone worthy to be the sword of the morning.  I think this would be the highest ideal.  So eight stars instead of seven.

And can we dispense with the notion that a previous incarnation of the Faith militant had nothing to do with House Dayne and the Sword of the Morning?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.