Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

It explains the visions in the HotU, the shadows in MMDs tent, the prince who was promised prophecy, the return of dragons, and the title of the series.

More importantly it is the crux of Dany's entire story arc.

She goes from a tool, who doesn't even know her own identity, who was abused, lied to and sold off by the only person she considered family to a Queen in possession of superweapons who can define her own future and who she is as a person. She isn't defined by some silly coin toss of madness or greatness.

What was the payoff for pretending to kill Bran and Rickon? Or Mance? Or Davos?

What is the payoff for R+L=J? 

What is the payoff for any twist?

It's good story telling.

I'm not seeing any connections between an old bear being someone other than Willem Darry and any of the things in your list. Can't these things come about if Willem Darry is the old bear? You're making an unnecessary leap. None of these things are contingent upon the old bear being somebody else.

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is a lot we don't know about House Dayne except for the legacy of the pale sword and that the house is very old.  Dany is described as having the blood of old Valyria by Mopatis, (who is a deep R'hllorist IMO).  Dany's vision of the king's holding a pale sword with gemstone eyes could be the line of her ancestors, just as Jaime sees his ancestors in the wierwood stump dream.  Or Jon's dream of his ancestor's in the crypts.

So is this line of kings and the blood of old Valyria, a part of Dany's genetic inheritance.  Do her abilities come from a recessive gene?

A recessive gene is a gene whose effects are masked in the presence of a dominant gene. Every organism that has DNA packed into chromosomes has two alleles, or forms of a gene, for each gene: one inherited from their mother, and one inherited from their father. In order for Daenerys to have silver-gold hair, both parents must possess the allele for silver-gold hair. If Daenerys's "abilities" are from recessive genes, then both parents must also have the alleles with abilities in them - thus the Targaryen's penchant for marrying within the family.

[lehutin]

22 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

His words not mine.... maybe your headcannon doesn't reflect the text as well as you think?

Orly? His words? Which words are those? When did Ned Stark admit that he found R+L=D at the Tower of Joy and then dumped her in Dorne? Oh wait, he never did. That's the crappy headcanon of R+L=D.

25 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Someone always talks.

Amazing how no one ever apparently talked despite R+L=D being ferreted from the Tower of Joy to some random place in Dorne to the Daynes to multiple locations in Essos...

30 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Walys Flowers was sworn to him... and that is who I'm suggesting was the protector.

Uh huh, so your ideal candidate for a "protector" is not a battle-hardened fire-forged bannerman like Howland Reed but...a maester. With "soft hands."

26 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Right, to run and hide because their hair and eye color reveals a parentage which will bring down Robert's wrath.

You mean the hair color that can be dyed? Say, haven't we seen characters dye their hair? Maybe we're reading different books, but I could've sworn that

1. Daemon II Blackfyre dyed his hair to disguise himself as "John the Fiddler."
2. Sansa Stark dyed her black to disguise herself as "Alayne."
3. "Aegon VI Targaryen" dyed his hair to disguise himself as "Young Griff."

Does any of that ring a bell, or am I confusing my headcanon with the books?

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I can't possibly have all the details for you, I'm just trying to explain to you what I think is being indicated by the story.

And I said I wasn't asking for a daily itinerary down to the hour. That's grossly unfair of me. I was just asking for a reasonable attempt to fill in the gap between R+L=D's birth in Dorne and her appearance in Essos at the beginning of AGOT.

 

Your best attempt involves Ned Stark entrusting the life of his niece, the daughter of his beloved dead sister, in the hands of a maester for "protection"; while never ever ever checking up on her ever again for her "safety"; and getting the Daynes involved for no reason; who ship her off to Essos because.

 

It should be obvious to anyone reasonable that this doesn't make any sense at all, but you're clearly invested in this headcanon of a "theory," so whatever. Have at it.

[HoodedCrow]

Eye color and hair color are determined by more than one pair of genes. It gets complicated.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Drogo gave her a silver filly/mare. Grey is a color between black and white while silver indicates it had a metallic sheen.

Ahh, but Dany's Silver is actually white and grey, Stark colored (or the bastard's reverse even). Grey with a silver mane. Silver is also the name of the lone rangers white horse.

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There was something about her that took the breath away. She was grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke.

And we see Bran's horse, named dancer no less, mentioned here with the silver direwolf of house Stark:

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Dancer was draped in bardings of snowy white wool emblazoned with the grey direwolf of House Stark, while Bran wore grey breeches and white doublet, his sleeves and collar trimmed with vair. Over his heart was his wolf's-head brooch of silver and polished jet. He would sooner have had Summer than a silver wolf on his breast, but Ser Rodrik had been unyielding.

And Dany is described as riding her silver much like Lyanna:

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The khal had commanded the handmaid Irri to teach Dany to ride in the Dothraki fashion, but it was the filly who was her real teacher. The horse seemed to know her moods, as if they shared a single mind.

...

Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. 

She explicitly didn't have experience riding, and it wasn't her teachers... she was a natural.

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She glimped the shadow of a great wolf and a man wreathed in flames. How is this even connected to her parentage? Mirri said she would summon,

So according to Mirri the great wolf and the man wreathed in flames are old dead powers. 

Only Dany sees the wolf and burning man, not Jorah. And why is she brought there? Because the Maegi knows the secrets of the birthing bed.

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What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.
"The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,"

The secret of Dany's birth...

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"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."

Daughter of death... daughter of the shadows dancing in the tent.

Then, this string of images is shown to Dany in the HotU:

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Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.

The shadows of the giant wolf and burning man are the shadows dancing in the tent.

The little girl (Dany), and the House with the Red Door.

MMD getting burned and the birth of dragons.

Dany's Stark colored horse dragging the only Usurper's knife ever sent, representing the lies she was told by Viserys.

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IMO the prince that was promised IS a dragon. It's like a recipe. Do this and this and this and you'll be able to hatch dragon eggs.

I clearly disagree, although I think the dragon who was promised having three heads refers to three individuals, of whom Dany is one (child of three), and the return of dragons proves it.

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Helmet moment? Daenerys saw many things in the House of the Undying, but none of them are confirmation that any of it strictly applied to her. She saw four men raping a beautiful woman on a floor, and Robb Stark's body with Grey Wind's head attached. Does this mean that she's got any connection whatsoever to the woman or Robb Stark? 

Slow down... The "helmet" moment is from the wake the dragon dream:

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And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

If you aren't familiar with Star Wars, Luke goes to train with Yoda, and has to enter this spooky cave where he sees a vision of Darth Vader (his father) but within Vader's black helmet the face is Luke's... then as he is leaving, Yoda and ghost Ben are talking, Ben says "that boy is our last hope", and Yoda responds with, "No, there is another" in reference to Leia, Lukes sister.

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He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more,"

And that is the connection to the House of the Undying.

As for the four servitors raping the woman on the floor, I would suggest that the magic of both House Stark and House Targaryen originates from interbreeding with Children of the Forrest and/or their servitor equivalents at the House of the Undying.

As for the wolf headed king on the throne:

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Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

I do not believe this is the Red Wedding. Not only is the crown wrong (it's made of only iron, not bronze), but there is no reason for Rob to look to dany with any sort of appeal, mute or otherwise.

I believe this is Jon. The crown has no bronze because Jon has no claim to the Riverlands, instead he wields the lamb scepter as king of the freefolk after his time as a wolf in sheep's clothing. Ghost is the conspicuously silent (mute) wolf, and Jon has even had visions of the feast of the dead.

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Part of the Prince that was Promised prophecy includes a three-headed dragon. Aegon the Conqueror had two sister-wives and all three had dragons.  The last dragon died around 150 years after the conquest and the Targaryens have been obsessed with hatching dragon eggs ever since.

The dragon has three heads, and I wouldn't be surprised to see two other characters fit the prophesy in their own way.

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Many believe the tragedy at Summerhal was an attempt to hatch dragon eggs. Egg had the requesite "three heads" - his three elder and married children: Duncan, Jaehaerys, and Shaera. The children of Jaehaerys and Shaera (Aerys and Rhaella) were pregnant with Rhaegar just as Daenerys was pregnant when Mirri first began her resurrection ritual for Drogo. Daenerys of course lost Rhaego prior to the funeral pyre that hatched her eggs, while Rhaella's unborn child survived while many others perished. Jorah Mormont carried Daenerys into the tent, while Ser Duncan the Tall carried Rhaella out of the flames.

We don't know enough of what happened at Harrenhall to really understand, but treachery was involved.

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Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

Can't wait to learn more though.

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If it is true that there must be three siblings prior to bringing forth the promised dragon, then Daenerys by necessity must have two siblings, and indeed she does - two brothers named Rhaegar and Viserys which is a reversal of Aegon and his two sisters.

Why do they have to be siblings? GRRM has said that the three heads aren't even necessarily Targaryen for a a long time, in my understanding.

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I have an alternate explanation for Quaithe's insistence that Daenerys "remembers" who she is and it has to do with mummers remembering their parts in a play. I believe history has been repeating itself and playing out like a giant mummer's play except the "acts" or rather "events" are occurring in reverse or jumbled order. I think Quaithe understands what is happening and is trying to override Dany's "part" in an attempt to get her to do what Aegon the Conquerer did rather than the current part she is playing as the mother or "origin" of dragons. This is why she tells her:

The reason why history is repeating itself has to do with how the Children helped the Last Hero defeat the Others. If you're familiar with the Marvel Comic's character Dr Strange you might recall that he used the Eye of Aggamoto to place "time" in a continual loop in order to defeat Dormammu. I think the Children also placed time in a continual loop and every time "Brandon" dies a new one is born and the loop resets.

I prefer the explanation that history repeats itself, and obviously believe the "remember who you are" is far more literal.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, lehutin said:

Orly? His words? Which words are those? When did Ned Stark admit that he found R+L=D at the Tower of Joy and then dumped her in Dorne? Oh wait, he never did. That's the crappy headcanon of R+L=D.

Ned says what he would do owith a child who's hair and eye color would bring Roberts wrath, as quoted.

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Amazing how no one ever apparently talked despite R+L=D being ferreted from the Tower of Joy to some random place in Dorne to the Daynes to multiple locations in Essos...

Lots of people talk about Jon... Rumors abound.

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Uh huh, so your ideal candidate for a "protector" is not a battle-hardened fire-forged bannerman like Howland Reed but...a maester. With "soft hands."

Yes

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You mean the hair color that can be dyed? Say, haven't we seen characters dye their hair? Maybe we're reading different books, but I could've sworn that

1. Daemon II Blackfyre dyed his hair to disguise himself as "John the Fiddler."
2. Sansa Stark dyed her black to disguise herself as "Alayne."
3. "Aegon VI Targaryen" dyed his hair to disguise himself as "Young Griff."

Does any of that ring a bell, or am I confusing my headcanon with the books?

None of them do it in Westeros from birth, and with the exception of Sansa (so far) they all get found out.

Someone always tells.

You are being pretty disingenuous and rude. It's no skin off my back if you don't believe what I'm saying.

 

[lehutin]

18 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Ned says what he would do owith a child who's hair and eye color would bring Roberts wrath, as quoted.

OK, so just like the R+L=D author, you lack basic reading comprehension skills. Hair and eye color are not mentioned anywhere in the quote you have repeatedly given and repeatedly misunderstood:

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"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

18 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Lots of people talk about Jon... Rumors abound.

Your evidence that someone will tell the "truth" of R+L=D is that...no one in-universe so far has ever told the truth of R+L=J? 

18 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Yes

If you honestly believe that a maester with "soft hands" is better qualified to "protect" the daughter of Ned Stark's beloved dead sister than a battle-hardened loyal bannerman like Howland Reed (versus answering "yes" because you don't want to admit how terribly bad this theory is), then I don't think any further discussion is productive, as we obviously don't see the world the same way.

[Mourning Star]

4 minutes ago, lehutin said:

OK, so just like the R+L=D author, you lack basic reading comprehension skills. Hair and eye color are not mentioned anywhere in the quote you have repeatedly given and repeatedly misunderstood:

Oh come on, it's literally the entire reason Ned finds out about Cersei's kids not being Robert's. Kind of a major plot point!

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Your evidence that someone will tell the "truth" of R+L=D is that...no one in-universe so far has ever told the truth of R+L=J? 

I don't even know what you mean by this... I don't think anyone has told us the truth about either one yet, but that hasn't anything to do with evidence.

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If you honestly believe that a maester with "soft hands" is better qualified to "protect" the daughter of Ned Stark's beloved dead sister than a battle-hardened loyal bannerman like Howland Reed (versus answering "yes" because you don't want to admit how terribly bad this theory is), then I don't think any further discussion is productive, as we obviously don't see the world the same way.

It has nothing to do with qualifications.

But this isn't the only example, Jon sends a baby from a baby swap south with a maester for protection too.

I certainly agree that further discussion is not productive. Have a good one, bye.

[Melifeather]

Just a quick aside for @LynnS - did you know the Knights Templar are also known as the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ? They were a Catholic military order founded in 1119, but later supressed in 1312 "by the bull" - a type of public decree - that effectively dissolved the order through accusations of heresy and other crimes, many of which were extracted through torture, in order that they might be executed.

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I'm not seeing any connections between an old bear being someone other than Willem Darry and any of the things in your list. Can't these things come about if Willem Darry is the old bear? You're making an unnecessary leap. None of these things are contingent upon the old bear being somebody else.

Either I don't understand or am doing a poor job explaining my thoughts.

If Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone, and the house with the red door was in Westeros, then the grey bear can't be Willem Darry who fled to Essos.

It would be very strange if one of the very few details we have about Dany's protector, his soft hands, didn't fit with one of the few things we knew about Willem Darry, he was a master of arms. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Eye color and hair color are determined by more than one pair of genes. It gets complicated.

Hair and eye colors are passed down from the parents, a combination of the colors from the parents. There are dominant and recessive genes that determine eye and hair coloring. Recessive genes only manifest in the child if both parents carry recessive genes, otherwise the dominant genes will dictate coloring. Ashara cannot be Daenerys mother unless one of Ashara's parents are Targaryen. The Targaryens do have various hair coloring, but they are also the only ones that have the rare silver-gold recessive genes, therefore Ashara must have genes that carry silver-gold alleles, otherwise her dark brown hair would dominate any child fathered by Rhaegar. This real world fact must apply in Westeros since GRRM brought it up when Ned was searching for Robert's bastards. Black hair is dominant over all other hair colors.

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Either I don't understand or am doing a poor job explaining my thoughts.

If Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone, and the house with the red door was in Westeros, then the grey bear can't be Willem Darry who fled to Essos.

It would be very strange if one of the very few details we have about Dany's protector, his soft hands, didn't fit with one of the few things we knew about Willem Darry, he was a master of arms. 

Have you ever considered that the red door and lemon tree are purely symbolic?

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Just a quick aside for @LynnS - did you know the Knights Templar are also known as the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ? They were a Catholic military order founded in 1119, but later supressed in 1312 "by the bull" - a type of public decree - that effectively dissolved the order through accusations of heresy and other crimes, many of which were extracted through torture, in order that they might be executed.

I know a little about the Knights Templar, but I didn't know they were called the Poor Fellows.

Our discussion about hair color brings to mind Maggy the Frog's prediction about Cersei's kids.  In Jaime's weirwood stump dream, he's confronted by the ghosts of his ancestors which include Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey before they die.  Tommen and Myrcella are missing, not included with the dead or soon to be dead.

So I'm not sure that Maggy's prophecy about crowns and cloaks of gold means what Cersei thinks it means.  In this case, I think crowns of gold refers to hair color and cloaks of gold to their Lannister parentage.   

[Mourning Star]

7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Have you ever considered that the red door and lemon tree are purely symbolic?

Of course, and it's not like they can't be symbolic too, especially the lemons, but alone it doesn't fit with this story or writing style at all, not to mention it is a poor explanation for very literal descriptions of physical objects.

But, more importantly, Dany being a Stark makes for a much better explanation of all these other details, and ties the entire story together much more neatly, IMO.

It's like I have a very hard time accepting that the entire HotU sequence is just weird esoteric metaphors. I think this is a better written story than that.

[Mourning Star]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Our discussion about hair color brings to mind Maggy the Frog's prediction about Cersei's kids.  In Jaime's weirwood stump dream, he's confronted by the ghosts of his ancestors which include Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey before they die.  Tommen and Myrcella are missing, not included with the dead or soon to be dead.

So I'm not sure that Maggy's prophecy about crowns and cloaks of gold means what Cersei thinks it means.  In this case, I think crowns of gold refers to hair color and cloaks of gold to their Lannister parentage.   

This is interesting, although I'd point out that it is "shrouds" of gold rather than cloaks.

But, on the topic of color, isn't it interesting how the "eyes of death" appear as different colors to different people in dreams.

Ned: As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. 

Cersei:  But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death.

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So I'm not sure that Maggy's prophecy about crowns and cloaks of gold means what Cersei thinks it means

Inconceivable! lol

Princess Bride joke aside, I agree it does have multiple interpretations and it can mean both. Maggy the Frog could have predicted that the children would have blond hair due to incest, but she is probably right that they will also die wearing crowns. Joffrey was poisoned at his wedding shortly after being crowned. Dark Star tried to kill Myrcella when Arianne's plan to start a war by crowning her failed, but that doesn't mean Myrcella is out of the woods. She is still engaged to Tristane and Doran Martell may reconsider Arianne's idea if his plan to marry Arianne to Young Griff doesn't materialize.  Little Tommen is surrounded by people playing the game of thrones. I think he's safe as long as the Faith and Tyrells have control over him, but if Cersei manages to escape judgement I think his life is in danger.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Of course, and it's not like they can't be symbolic too, especially the lemons, but alone it doesn't fit with this story or writing style at all, not to mention it is a poor explanation for very literal descriptions of physical objects.

But, more importantly, Dany being a Stark makes for a much better explanation of all these other details, and ties the entire story together much more neatly, IMO.

It's like I have a very hard time accepting that the entire HotU sequence is just weird esoteric metaphors. I think this is a better written story than that.

Daenerys cannot be a Stark either as Lyanna also had dark brown hair.

[Mourning Star]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Daenerys cannot be a Stark either as Lyanna also had dark brown hair.

This is not how genetics work irl or in the series.

Egg Targaryen, for instance had Targ hair, while his wife, a Blackwood, had dark hair.

Duncan, his first born, had dark hair.

Jaehaerys, his second, had Targ hair.

It is not the same pattern as the Baratheon/Lannister Gold yielding to the Coal one.

Rhaegar, with Targ hair, had two kids with Elia, dark hair,

Rhaenys, his first born, had dark hair.

Aegon, his second, had Targ hair.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

This is interesting, although I'd point out that it is "shrouds" of gold rather than cloaks.

 

Here is the alternate meaning for shroud:

- a thing that envelops or obscures something

- cover and envelope as to conceal from view

So, covering up, concealing and obscuring.. sounds just like Cersei 

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Of course, and it's not like they can't be symbolic too, especially the lemons, but alone it doesn't fit with this story or writing style at all, not to mention it is a poor explanation for very literal descriptions of physical objects.

But, more importantly, Dany being a Stark makes for a much better explanation of all these other details, and ties the entire story together much more neatly, IMO.

It's like I have a very hard time accepting that the entire HotU sequence is just weird esoteric metaphors. I think this is a better written story than that.

Memories are rarely 100% true. You cannot depend upon every detail as being true unless you took notes or kept a journal. Otherwise it really depends upon how frequently you thought about a particular episode, because you're reactivating a specific group of neurons. The synapses between brain cells can be strengthened or weakened depending on when and how often they are activated. More importantly, memories aren't stored intact like a movie. They are more like snapshots that our brain utilizes in future decision-making. This is actually the source of our intuition. When something seems familiar or you get a strong sense of which direction to go, it is actually rooted in the simulations that our brains run through while we are sleeping.

Daenerys was always wondering which way to go. She once sent her three bloodriders in different directions when traveling in the waste, because she didn't trust her intuition, and I suspect she was receiving outside messages that were in conflict with her gut feelings.

I have more to discuss on this topic, but I have to cut this short for right now....