Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

This is not how genetics work irl or in the series.

Egg Targaryen, for instance had Targ hair, while his wife, a Blackwood, had dark hair.

Duncan, his first born, had dark hair.

Jaehaerys, his second, had Targ hair.

It is not the same pattern as the Baratheon/Lannister Gold yielding to the Coal one.

Rhaegar, with Targ hair, had two kids with Elia, dark hair,

Rhaenys, his first born, had dark hair.

Aegon, his second, had Targ hair.

We (very inconveniently) aren't provided with Black Betha's parentage other than she's a Blackwood, but the Blackwoods must be special in some way since Melissa Blackwood was also a royal consort and gave birth to three Targaryen bastards that were legitimized. There is no way to confirm whether Betha carried a recessive allele for silver-gold hair, but there is also nothing to disprove that she didn't.

As for the infant that Gregor Clegane dashed against the wall...the only time his hair color is mentioned are the few hanks of fair hair that could be seen on the smashed skull, which might actually be the reason why he was killed in such a brutal manner. Many readers suspect a baby swap and that the child Gregor killed was the Pisswater Prince. It's entirely possible that the baby provided had fair hair while the real Aegon could have had brown hair like his sister Rhaenys and mother Elia. Randall Tarly and Kevan Lannister have a discussion that implies the boy was not Aegon:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

"A feigned boy is what he has," said Randyll Tarly.

"That may be. Or not." Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegar's children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy … a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word. "We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

"As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell.

 

 

[Matthew.]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Thanks Matthew. I'm not spoiler averse and I would like to read them if you have any links you can provide within spoiler quotes.

These are some of the snippets I saw yesterday, mostly addressing controversial plot points in the show:
 

Spoiler

Regarding the three moments that D&D characterized as "holy shit" worthy:

Quote

It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and “hold the door,” and Stannis’s decision to burn his daughter. We didn’t get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings.

...

Stannis killing his daughter was one of the most agonizing scenes in Thrones and one of the moments Martin had told the producers he was planning for The Winds of Winter (though the book version of the scene will play out a bit differently).

...

GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: It’s an obscenity to go into somebody’s mind. So Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time. The explanation of Bran’s powers, the whole question of time and causality—can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it? These are issues I want to explore in the book, but it’s harder to explain in a show. I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical—“hold the door” with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to “hold the door” is more like “hold this pass”—defend it when enemies are coming—and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.

Regarding the awful Sansa/Ramsay plotline; granted, we didn't expect this to happen anyway, so the rejection of the show plot line isn't terribly noteworthy--I do, however, enjoy GRRM articulating the thought processes and emotions of his characters:

Quote

My Littlefinger would have never turned Sansa over to Ramsay. Never. He's obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she's the daughter he never had--that he wishes he had had, if he'd married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself. He's not going to give her to somebody who would do bad things to her. That's going to be very different in the books.

 

 

[Mourning Star]

11 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

We (very inconveniently) aren't provided with Black Betha's parentage other than she's a Blackwood, but the Blackwoods must be special in some way since Melissa Blackwood was also a royal consort and gave birth to three Targaryen bastards that were legitimized. There is no way to confirm whether Betha carried a recessive allele for silver-gold hair, but there is also nothing to disprove that she didn't.

As for the infant that Gregor Clegane dashed against the wall...the only time his hair color is mentioned are the few hanks of fair hair that could be seen on the smashed skull, which might actually be the reason why he was killed in such a brutal manner. Many readers suspect a baby swap and that the child Gregor killed was the Pisswater Prince. It's entirely possible that the baby provided had fair hair while the real Aegon could have had brown hair like his sister Rhaenys and mother Elia. Randall Tarly and Kevan Lannister have a discussion that implies the boy was not Aegon:

Purple eyes and metallic hair don't exist irl, I don't know why one would expect them to follow any real world genetic patterns. 

Nor do we know all the Stark heritage, but there is a Blackwood there as well, Melantha Blackwood, Lyanna's great grandmother.

The point is, Dany's hair in no way precludes her being the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

So Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time. The explanation of Bran’s powers, the whole question of time and causality—can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it? These are issues I want to explore in the book, but it’s harder to explain in a show.

I'm pleased to see anything that supports the idea that GRRM is playing with or exploring "time", especially his wondering if its a river that can only be sailed in one direction - meaning he has thought about sailing through time in reverse.

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical—“hold the door” with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to “hold the door” is more like “hold this pass”—defend it when enemies are coming—and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.

This is a very interesting distinction. If we can figure out what GRRM meant when he said show Hodor was "holding a pass" - which implies Hodor kept a door shut so that the Others couldn't pass - and how GRRM intends to explain a similar concept by holding a sword. I'm going to mull this over in my mind and see if any additional thoughts come to mind....

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Purple eyes and metallic hair don't exist irl, I don't know why one would expect them to follow any real world genetic patterns. 

Nor do we know all the Stark heritage, but there is a Blackwood there as well, Melantha Blackwood, Lyanna's great grandmother.

The point is, Dany's hair in no way precludes her being the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Technically they don't, although Elizabeth Taylor is noted as having violet eyes, but GRRM is the one that set the precedent by demonstrating that Robert's bastards all have coal black hair. He gave us this example for a reason. Now interestingly Robert does have Targaryen blood from his grandmother Rhaelle, but in order for a recessive allele to come through Robert, he'd have to impregnate a woman that also carried a silver-gold allele.

Yes, there is a Blackwood ancestor in the Stark family tree, but a recessive allele needs another recessive allele and a bit of luck to be seen. If Lyanna was a carrier of a recessive silver-gold allele passed down to her from grandma Melantha Blackwood, then it would be possible for her to have a child with silver-gold hair if the father also had a recessive silver-gold allele.

[Melifeather]

If anyone is interested in alleles, here is an article about how red hair can jump generations: https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask245

Just swap out silver-gold for red and it should work!

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Just a quick aside for @LynnS - did you know the Knights Templar are also known as the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ? They were a Catholic military order founded in 1119, but later supressed in 1312 "by the bull" - a type of public decree - that effectively dissolved the order through accusations of heresy and other crimes, many of which were extracted through torture, in order that they might be executed.

Another aside for @LynnS although anyone is welcome to join in. I don't believe we've explored the parallels between the story and the Knights Templar, have we @Black Crow ?

I've been rewatching the Da Vinci code and they were discussing ancient symbols for "man" and "woman" with the symbol for man looking like a chevron or rather a pyramid and a woman as an inverted chevron. The man's chevron is a rudimentary phallus and referred to as "the blade" - a symbol of aggression. It is frequently used as a military patch with subsequent "penises" added on for increasing rank. The woman's inverted chevron is open like a cup or vessel and symbolizes the womb. It's referred to as "the chalice"  or grail implying that the Holy Grail was actually a symbol of the female divine or a woman that carried a secret rather than a cup that held Jesus's wine/blood.

The Egyptians added a circle below the chevron to indicate the Eye of Horus and later the Freemasons used this symbol to represent an all-seeing eye. When the circle is located above the chevron it becomes the third eye or pineal gland of the Eastern belief systems.

When the two chevrons are connected - the male chevron over the inverted female chevron - it represents the joining of male and female energies and the creative force of the universe - the sacred symbol of god-force. The Masonic set-square and compass icon is a form of connected chevrons and represents that intersection. In ancient times birds, snakes, and waves were considered divine emissaries due to their V formations. Even the capital letter M is significant in that it's a double V pattern making the names Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene especially sacred. The letter M has also been used to symbolize breasts feeding spiritually hungry humans.

GRRM's story has these same male and female divine images with the blades/swords and waves/maidenheads. There are also quests. The Last Hero sought the Children for help, Bran sought the Three-Eyed Crow, Jorah Mormont looked for Benjen, and Jon sought the wildlings that hadn't made their way through the Wall. The search for the Holy Grail may have been a quest to reinstate the feminine aspect of the divine: Mary Magdalene as Jesus's wife. In Da Vinci's Last Supper he has painted Mary Magdalene and Jesus as mirror images with the space between them forming an inverted chalice . The seasons are out of whack on Planetos. Perhaps bringing balance back into the world includes reinstating a women into power?

[LadySage]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/george-rr-martin-reveals-hodor-135918025.html. OT but if not already mentioned...  *TWOW/DOS SPOILER ALERT*

[Melifeather]

It occurred to me that the visual of the feminine inverted triangle balanced and touching the peak of the male triangle looks like an hourglass, and if the edges were smoothed like a snake would also be the symbol for eternity, or in our story the ouroboros aka the dragon eating its own tail.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LadySage said:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/george-rr-martin-reveals-hodor-135918025.html. OT but if not already mentioned...

Quote

They did it very physical — ‘hold the door’ with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to ‘hold the door’ is more like ‘hold this pass’ — defend it when enemies are coming — and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.

So GRRMs complaint, if you could call it that, is the show was too literal when the book will be more metaphysical. Am I interpreting that correctly? Hodor is the symbolic sword that Bran wields. That’s what my takeaway is.

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Drogo gave her a silver filly/mare. Grey is a color between black and white while silver indicates it had a metallic sheen.

I've always been under the impression that the coloring of the horse was simply intended by Drogo as a compliment to his bride. No deeper significance need be inferred.

 

16 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If it is true that there must be three siblings prior to bringing forth the promised dragon, then Daenerys by necessity must have two siblings, and indeed she does - two brothers named Rhaegar and Viserys which is a reversal of Aegon and his two sisters.

I do have a very clear recollection of an SSM in which he observed that the third dragon [or dragon-rider] need not be a Targaryen. This inspired all sorts of speculation as to who the third might be, which I don't intend to rake up here, but the point is that we're not necessarily looking at three siblings

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Another aside for @LynnS although anyone is welcome to join in. I don't believe we've explored the parallels between the story and the Knights Templar, have we @Black Crow ?

We haven't. The parallels are very obvious, but while I'm sure that GRRM [who fancies himself as a mediaevalist] has modelled the poor fellows on the Templars I'm not convinced that its got any significance beyond the model - and their ultimate fate.

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, lehutin said:

OK, so just like the R+L=D author, you lack basic reading comprehension skills. Hair and eye color are not mentioned anywhere in the quote you have repeatedly given and repeatedly misunderstood:

 

Your evidence that someone will tell the "truth" of R+L=D is that...no one in-universe so far has ever told the truth of R+L=J? 

If you honestly believe that a maester with "soft hands" is better qualified to "protect" the daughter of Ned Stark's beloved dead sister than a battle-hardened loyal bannerman like Howland Reed (versus answering "yes" because you don't want to admit how terribly bad this theory is), then I don't think any further discussion is productive, as we obviously don't see the world the same way.

Can we dial this down please. This is the Heresy thread and we've successfully run it for the last 9 years per my signature block, no matter our disagreements

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I'm pleased to see anything that supports the idea that GRRM is playing with or exploring "time", especially his wondering if its a river that can only be sailed in one direction - meaning he has thought about sailing through time in reverse.

OMG!  This is what I've been saying about the Skirling Pass; that the tree-Bran Ghost-Jon encounter rippled back through time to Bran in the crypts. 

My guess is that the defining Hodor incident; that was not so much holding the door, as it was holding the pass; occurred at the entry or pass to the cave of skulls.  This is when they are attacked by wights when they were at their greatest peril when Bran suddenly and inexplicably finds himself in Hodor;s body.  A super-charged Hodor.

ETA:  Martin has said that Hodor is only afraid of two things.  That seems to be thunderstorms and Bran entering his mind and body.

I also think there are now implications for the KoLT and the rider was Howland.  This isn't about changing the past, but about events in Bran's future as tree-Bran that are the causes of past events.  

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The seasons are out of whack on Planetos. Perhaps bringing balance back into the world includes reinstating a women into power?

Or alternately, the quest in the story is to reveal the child of the Nights King and his Queen and trace the lineage to rediscover the descendants  much like the movie looked for evidence that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a child. Could a potential descendent be a rightful ruler who could save Westeros from a second Long Night and restore regular seasons?

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I do have a very clear recollection of an SSM in which he observed that the third dragon [or dragon-rider] need not be a Targaryen. This inspired all sorts of speculation as to who the third might be, which I don't intend to rake up here, but the point is that we're not necessarily looking at three siblings

Rhaegar must have thought the three heads were dragons since he named his first two children after Aegon the Conqueror and his sister Rhaenys. Even Daenerys noted “no Visenya.”

As for the SSM:

Quote

“This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

This could be interpreted more than one way - especially since he said “necessarily” which implies a “technicality”. It could mean a sibling that doesn’t know they’re Targaryen or isn’t known/recognized by others by that name.
 

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

OMG!  This is what I've been saying about the Skirling Pass; that the tree-Bran Ghost-Jon encounter rippled back through time to Bran in the crypts. 

My guess is that the defining Hodor incident; that was not so much holding the door, as it was holding the pass; occurred at the entry or pass to the cave of skulls.  This is when they are attacked by wights when they were at their greatest peril when Bran suddenly and inexplicably finds himself in Hodor;s body.  A super-charged Hodor.

ETA:  Martin has said that Hodor is only afraid of two things.  That seems to be thunderstorms and Bran entering his mind and body.

I also think there are now implications for the KoLT and the rider was Howland.  This isn't about changing the past, but about events in Bran's future as tree-Bran that are the causes of past events.  

It is weird to think that since Bran gets wedded to the trees in the future and learns to see through the trees that he already had the ability when he was yet in the crypts at Winterfell. Sort of like realizing he won't die while in coma, because he met the three-eyed crow in the future - and I'm leaving the identity of the three-eyed crow open. It works whether Bloodraven is actually the 3EC or not. Its the same concept for Hodor. Since he's injured in the future it affects how he is in the present.

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

It is weird to think that since Bran gets wedded to the trees in the future and learns to see through the trees that he already had the ability when he was yet in the crypts at Winterfell. Sort of like realizing he won't die while in coma, because he met the three-eyed crow in the future - and I'm leaving the identity of the three-eyed crow open. It works whether Bloodraven is actually the 3EC or not. Its the same concept for Hodor. Since he's injured in the future it affects how he is in the present.

I'd argue that he doesn't have the ability to talk to Jon from the crypts and that happens only after he becomes wedded to the tree.  That's the point where past, present and future become one (for the tree) or the river of time stops moving.  Bran sees himself in the future from the crypts; an affect whose cause is in Bran's future.  It's a ripple that feeds back through time.  

Jon percieves events from present to future and so he say that Bran spoke to him and then touched Ghost (followed by the vision of the wildlings).

Bran in the crypts perceives events in the reverse order, backwards.  He says he may have touched Ghost and then talked to Jon.    

 

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

So GRRMs complaint, if you could call it that, is the show was too literal when the book will be more metaphysical. Am I interpreting that correctly? Hodor is the symbolic sword that Bran wields. That’s what my takeaway is.

I laughed at the show's literal version of the backdoor of the cave.  Why isn't there a front door?    The only place in the books where there is a door to the entryway of a cave is on the Quiet Isle.  Elder Brother's room. 

[alienarea]

I wonder whether the underground river leads to the (lowest levels of the) crypts of Winterfell and Hodor dies defending a pass there.

[Melifeather]

It seems hinted that Bran will skinchange Hodor to take up a sword. Maybe the sword will be the original Ice? And maybe Ice has magical properties? But then again, maybe the sword isn't a literal sword? Just like in the Da Vinci code the symbol for man is called "the blade". I keep thinking about the many references to the bloody male penis-swords and the maidenheads of our story and how the two symbols for man and woman together represent "god-power". Oh my god. I hope Bran doesn't warg Hodor just to have sex with Meera?  

I've recently discovered my tv has an app called Tubi. It's setup much like Netflix, but its free. Every so often you have to watch about a minute of commercials, but you have access to all these lesser known movies that I frankly haven't even heard of, but I've discovered a few gems. Anyways, I watched The Time Machine, an adaptation of H.G. Wells's novel, and for a movie made in 2002 the special effects were pretty good. The machine itself was quite fantastic. The main character built the machine so that he could go back in time and save his girlfriend from being shot by a mugger. He's successful, but after avoiding the park where she was shot, she ends up getting run over by a runaway carriage instead, demonstrating that the past cannot be changed. His girlfriend still died on the same day and both times requested flowers immediately prior to her death. I couldn’t help notice an ironic parallel between the GOT books and tv show and how GRRM said he told D&D the major character arcs. A character may die differently in the books than on the show, but they still died. The details were different, but the death still occurred.

So the time traveler decides to go into the future to find answers, specifically why the past can't be changed, and later, "what if". Of course he ends up finding a way to change the future, which is what I think Bloodraven and the Children are trying to do.