Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

His bones seem to be lost but his soul was drawn back to the crypts.  So I assume he can't be resurrected like a wight but we still don't know about the white walkers and whether or not they are resurrected souls or what this could say about the Kings of Winter. 

I think Leaf's behavior here indicates that Bran could potentially call Ned back from death. Otherwise, why even tell him not to try? I think there are several hints that involve resurrection of Ned Stark, and if it happens, I think it would be a fearsome thing. Look at how terrible UnCat is? Ned could potentially be worse. Although you have to find some way to get around Ned being only bones, which may or may not be lost. Can bones be resurrected? It seems they can remember, at least according to Melisandre.

 

20 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If Bran was able to save Jon, couldn't there be something he could do to intervene on his father's behalf? What if he could've used Summer to kill Joffrey at Winterfell? I suppose Summer was too much a puppy yet? OR - Do you think Bran caused his own fall with the hopes that his father wouldn't want to leave Winterfell with Robert? Of course Ned left before Bran woke from his coma so if that was his intention, it didn't work. Regardless, it seems to me like his fall may have been deliberate.

This is a very intriguing idea. What kind of toll does it take on Bran to work magic like this, because there has to be a price? But if he could figure out how to do it, and wasn't afraid to pay a toll for the magic, he might be able to keep changing the past, a little at a time, until it works out. I guess I have always felt like the time loops don't happen in just one lifetime though, that they are repeated over the centuries until it works out like it's intended or wanted. Hence all of the Bran Starks over the years. But if our Bran could change the past, why would he just not kill Robert before he came to Winterfell, and then Ned would never have to serve as hand, and Bran would never have to fall and become crippled. The idea you present is pretty deep, and I admit I have to think on it a bit before I say much more. 

 

 

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I don't know if it changes your theory or not, but Bran was actually pushed from the First Keep. He used the Broken Tower to climb, but then crossed over to the First Keep, with the gargoyles, which was where Jaime and Cersei were trysting. Is trysting to vanilla a word to describe their activities? Ha! 

I certainly do think the information about the Broken Tower having been struck by lightening is quite interesting, and probably important, although I wondered if it is linked to another Brandon Stark in the past. All these Brandon's that keep repeating... what happened 140 years ago when that tower was struck by lightening?

Do you think pushing Bran was out of character for Jaime? I do. He may have had a long standing incestuous relationship with his sister, but he also seemed to do good things even if others thought he was dishonorable for slaying the king he was duty bound to protect.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I think Leaf's behavior here indicates that Bran could potentially call Ned back from death. Otherwise, why even tell him not to try? I think there are several hints that involve resurrection of Ned Stark, and if it happens, I think it would be a fearsome thing. Look at how terrible UnCat is? Ned could potentially be worse. Although you have to find some way to get around Ned being only bones, which may or may not be lost. Can bones be resurrected? It seems they can remember, at least according to Melisandre.

 

This is a very intriguing idea. What kind of toll does it take on Bran to work magic like this, because there has to be a price? But if he could figure out how to do it, and wasn't afraid to pay a toll for the magic, he might be able to keep changing the past, a little at a time, until it works out. I guess I have always felt like the time loops don't happen in just one lifetime though, that they are repeated over the centuries until it works out like it's intended or wanted. Hence all of the Bran Starks over the years. But if our Bran could change the past, why would he just not kill Robert before he came to Winterfell, and then Ned would never have to serve as hand, and Bran would never have to fall and become crippled. The idea you present is pretty deep, and I admit I have to think on it a bit before I say much more. 

 

 

You forget that it was Joffrey that executed Ned for treason. Not Robert.

I think Bran tried to change the past, first by trying to stop his father from leaving Winterfell to become Robert's Hand, and later to prevent Jon's death by the Magnar of Thenn. And due to GRRM's proclivity of having three examples of everything I think there's an as yet undiscovered third attempt. After he learns the hard way that the past cannot be changed, he sets about changing the future.

[St Daga]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The reason why I think its Aegon and his sisters is because the Targaryens weren't the only ones that were able to hatch dragon eggs. Many dragonlords in Valyria could, but the dragons were wiped out in Valyria during the Doom and presumably so did the knowledge about how to hatch the eggs. After Aegon and his sisters conquered Westeros the eggs they did manage to hatch produced smaller and smaller dragons until they weren't able to even hatch the eggs. The last dragon died 150 years after Aegon arrived, so add another 150 years and the Targaryens forgot how to hatch eggs too.

Well, Aegon chose his sigil long before he would have known his family would forget how to hatch dragon eggs. I think at the time of the conquest, there were plenty of dragon hatchlings and eggs, and even more than 100 years later, during the Dance of the Dragons, there were plenty of hatchlings. So many that Cannibal was eating them when ever he wanted to.  I do think by Rhaegar's time, the Targaryen's were concerned with relearning how to hatch dragons, but I think that the idea of the "dragon has three heads" was already tied to them long before dragons had died out, indicated by the sigil that was picked before Aegon had even made himself King of Westeros. 

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Well, Aegon chose his sigil long before he would have known his family would forget how to hatch dragon eggs. I think at the time of the conquest, there were plenty of dragon hatchlings and eggs, and even more than 100 years later, during the Dance of the Dragons, there were plenty of hatchlings. So many that Cannibal was eating them when ever he wanted to.  I do think by Rhaegar's time, the Targaryen's were concerned with relearning how to hatch dragons, but I think that the idea of the "dragon has three heads" was already tied to them long before dragons had died out, indicated by the sigil that was picked before Aegon had even made himself King of Westeros. 

 

Did he have a sigil or a banner before his conquest of Westeros though? Or was it created after he defeated a bunch of Andals where the tradition of knighthood, sigils, and banners seem to come from? Aegon and his sisters were probably the last Targaryens that had a firm knowledge of how to hatch dragon eggs.

Edited to add: Aegon and his sisters established House Targaryen in Westeros. It only makes sense that the sigil reflect them as a three-some.

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sarella/Alleras says the phrase to her fellow students at the Citadel and they seem unfamiliar with the phrase, asking her if it's a riddle.  This kind of reinforces my belief that Elia's family was familiar with Rhaegar's plans for his son.

I agree that Rhaegar is tied to the phrase "the dragon has three heads", and Elia was probably aware of the ultimate goal, but I think Rhaegar's inspiration came from the past, before the conquest, hinted at by Aegon choosing the imagery of his sigil. A red dragon doesn't fit what we know of the Targaryen dragons at the time of the conquest, at least in color. Maybe it does touch back to the idea of R'hller? I think that idea of a "dragon has three heads" might have some meaning to the history of either Valyria, or the Targaryen's in Valyria. Or it's possible that Rhaegar just took a guess, based on Aegon's chosen sigil in combination with himself and his sister-wives being so strong they and their dragon were able to conquer a continent. 

[Melifeather]

If Bran deliberately had himself thrown from the tower, how did Ned's leaving go the first time around? I'm thinking Bran went along the first time instead of Arya and that is why Arya pretends to be a boy and pretty much is a tomboy in the first place. 

[St Daga]

13 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Do you think pushing Bran was out of character for Jaime? I do. He may have had a long standing incestuous relationship with his sister, but he also seemed to do good things even if others thought he was dishonorable for slaying the king he was duty bound to protect.

I don't think it was that out of character for Jaime to behave in that way, and I don't think Cersei thought so either. She was angry that he acted without thinking, which is something he tends to do. Jaime was pretty much an asshole before his time with Brienne, so anything he did prior to that doesn't surprise me at all. 

 What good things has Jaime done? Besides killing Aerys, and that is debatable if that was good. He could have just held him captive, but instead he murdered him. This is the same man who tricked his little brother, then plotted with is father to have that girl his brother loved gang raped. Jaime is not at all that shiny. 

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You forget that it was Joffrey that executed Ned for treason. Not Robert.

No, I didn't forget that. But if Robert was dead, then Joff would already have been king, would never have come north, Ned never would have been named Hand of the King, and there was no reason for him to be in King's Landing for Joffrey to execute. All of those things don't happen if Robert never is able to ask Ned to be Hand of the King. 

11 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Did he have a sigil or a banner before his conquest of Westeros though? Or was it created after he defeated a bunch of Andals where the tradition of knighthood, sigils, and banners seem to come from?

I will need to do some research, and I don't have time now, but in my memory, Aegon chose his sigil before the conquest. During the time frame when he was hanging out educating himself in Old Town. I could be quite wrong about that. I will have to dive into the text to see what I can find. But I do think it was Aegon who chose the sigil, and not any of his family that came before him. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I'm just looking for some explanation of the red dragon on the Targaryen sigil. Dany's dream dragon is black. It might be that the dragon of the red temple is the same dragon, a black dragon, but it makes more sense in my head for it to be red. It would explain the "red" hints in the temple, as well as the clothing that the priests wear. If it was about fire, then they could use colors like red, orange and yellow, but they specifically only wear red, which has to have some reason. Of course, I might be focusing on this in error, and that red dragon on the sigil doesn't mean anything or tie to Valyrian history at all. Just because I think is stand out as an odd detail, doesn't mean GRRM intended it to be a clue. It could be that the red dragon on the sigil is an homage to the "red temple" god, as you speculate, whom very well could be an ancestor of the Targaryen's or one of their dragons. 

I won't discount the possibilities of a red or black dragon hidden in one or more of the Temples of R'hllor.  What we have been shown so far is the black dragon.  I'm not sure if the predominance of red means red fire, red dragon or red comet.  I do think the red comet has made more than one appearance.  Melisandre calls it Dragon's Breath and I think it marks the first appearance of the comet and the tale Azor Ahai.  I think this is why Mel is now saying that Azor Ahai will be reborn.  That this is the significance of the red comet to her and the Red Lot.  

Consider Salladhor Saan's version of the story:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

The first time reading this story in CoK, it seems fantastical and improbable that anyone could go without sleep of food for 180 days and nights.  Until we get to Mel's pov in DwD and learn that she can go without eating or sleeping.  That puts a whole different context around Saan's story.   He tells this story in the context of the Red Religion.

Azor Ahai must have been a male priest of the temple, forging his valyrian steel blade in the sacred fire of dragon's breath.  I think that Nissa Nissa's heart was also bathed in the holy flame, like Melisandre.  So to make the red sword Lightbringer; AA must temper the sword in his wife's heart; drawing out her blood, soul, strength, courage and holy flame into the blade. 

The crack across the face of the moon is the red comet. This is not unlike Catelyn saying that the red comet is a long scratch across the sky, the face of god.  If the moon did crack, this would still be noticeable and others would tell their own tales about it.

Unfortunately or fortunately for Mel, Stannis doesn't have a Valyrian sword, but Jon does.  

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I don't think it was that out of character for Jaime to behave in that way, and I don't think Cersei thought so either. She was angry that he acted without thinking, which is something he tends to do. Jaime was pretty much an asshole before his time with Brienne, so anything he did prior to that doesn't surprise me at all. 

 What good things has Jaime done? Besides killing Aerys, and that is debatable if that was good. He could have just held him captive, but instead he murdered him. This is the same man who tricked his little brother, then plotted with is father to have that girl his brother loved gang raped. Jaime is not at all that shiny. 

I think Jaime was loyal to his family until he was forced to choose between his father and his brother, and then he helped Tyrion escape death. As for Tysha, Jaime was obeying his father. Jaime saved the realm from Aerys and ended the Rebellion. I think that was one of the bravest acts any of the characters has ever done. He also saved Brienne and gave her Oathkeeper - a part of Ned's sword - to help defend her while she looked for Sansa and Arya. He also told her about the girl the Bolton's were pretending was Arya. He's certainly not perfectly shiny, but I think on the whole he's pretty decent. I think this is an instance where we can blame the victim. Bran put himself in that position in the first place. If he was never there, his fall wouldn't have taken place. Wouldn't it be interesting to learn that Bran was supposed to go to Kings Landing with his father and Sansa rather than Arya? He was trying to prevent his father from being executed for treason, so he tried to find a way to keep his father from going to Kings Landing and at the same time preserve the Stark family's life at Winterfell. Heck, Bran may have even invented the saying that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell!

Sacrificing himself would seem more honorable to a young Bran than murdering Robert or Joffrey, and it may have been Bran's first attempt in changing history. He would learn from it and be more sophisticated the next time. What he did at Queenscrown was more successful, and it did give Jon many more months of life, and he even managed to advance to the position Lord Commander afterward. Ultimately Bran was unable to prevent Jon from being stabbed to death by his own men - and they all seemed to be strangely reluctant, by the way. When Jon grabbed Wicks' arm he backed away with his hands up as it to say, "it wasn't me", and Bowen Marsh had tears streaming down his face. 

[Black Crow]

53 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I agree that Rhaegar is tied to the phrase "the dragon has three heads", and Elia was probably aware of the ultimate goal, but I think Rhaegar's inspiration came from the past, before the conquest, hinted at by Aegon choosing the imagery of his sigil. A red dragon doesn't fit what we know of the Targaryen dragons at the time of the conquest, at least in color. Maybe it does touch back to the idea of R'hller? I think that idea of a "dragon has three heads" might have some meaning to the history of either Valyria, or the Targaryen's in Valyria. Or it's possible that Rhaegar just took a guess, based on Aegon's chosen sigil in combination with himself and his sister-wives being so strong they and their dragon were able to conquer a continent. 

I think that you're right up to a point, and that is that the meaning is a mystic one. Remember that Aegon was himself a rebel and joined with the Essossi in fighting to defeat the Volantis-based attempt to restore the Valyrian empire. The [red] dragon represents a "power" of three rather than an actual beastie. The red may indeed represent a forgotten connection to the Red lot - after all Master Benero claims Danaerys the Dragonlord is theirs.

Conversely of course, and I'm just spitballing here, the black dragon of the Blackfyres may signify a rejection of that connection in favour of an older allegianceto Valyria.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The idea you present is pretty deep, and I admit I have to think on it a bit before I say much more. 

You know, the seed that started the conversation came from LynnS when she stated that she thought Bran travelled back in time to talk to Jon in his dream. My thoughts are vining plant that grew from that! 

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You know, the seed that started the conversation came from LynnS when she stated that she thought Bran travelled back in time to talk to Jon in his dream. My thoughts are vining plant that grew from that! 

It's one of the theories of mine, included in the stupidest theory you've ever heard thread.  Not so stupid anymore. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Did he have a sigil or a banner before his conquest of Westeros though? Or was it created after he defeated a bunch of Andals where the tradition of knighthood, sigils, and banners seem to come from?

I will need to do some research, and I don't have time now, but in my memory, Aegon chose his sigil before the conquest. During the time frame when he was hanging out educating himself in Old Town. I could be quite wrong about that. I will have to dive into the text to see what I can find. But I do think it was Aegon who chose the sigil, and not any of his family that came before him. 

From looking into Fire and Blood, it looks like Aegon's banner was revealed early in his campaign, after he had sent his letters of intent to all the Lords of Westeros and gathered his own banners, but it doesn't indicate if Aegon picked the design, or it was one of his wives. 

Quote

 

Heraldic banners had long been a tradition amongst the Lords of Westeros, but such had never been used by the dragonlords of old Valyria. When Aegon's knights unfurled his great silken battle standard, with a red three-headed dragon breathing fire upon a black field, the lords took it for a sign that he was now truly one of them, a worthy high king for Westeros. When Queen Visenya placed a Valyrian steel circlet, studded with rubies, on her brother's head and Queen Rhaenys hailed him as, "Aegon, First of His Name, King of All Westeros, and Shield of His People", the dragons roared and the lords and knights sent up a cheer,,, but the smallfolk, the fishermen and the fieldhands and goodwives, shouted loudest of all.

The seven kings that Aegon the Dragon meant to uncrown were not cheering, however... Fire and Blood, Aegon's Conquest

 

Just from the chronology of that section of the book, it looks like Aegon had already defeated a few enemies and raised the Aegonfort before the reveal of his banner, but he had not actually faced any of his rival kings at this time. Still, his sisters had already declared him a king, so perhaps the three-headed dragon is representative of him and his sisters. Or their dragons. Either he was very arrogant about total victory (he did have dragons, after all) or he had some premonition of the future.

 

29 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You know, the seed that started the conversation came from LynnS when she stated that she thought Bran travelled back in time to talk to Jon in his dream. My thoughts are vining plant that grew from that! 

I think that is how most theories are born, started by a seed of conversation that then develops into something more. That is usually how it works for me.

[St Daga]

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that you're right up to a point, and that is that the meaning is a mystic one. Remember that Aegon was himself a rebel and joined with the Essossi in fighting to defeat the Volantis-based attempt to restore the Valyrian empire. The [red] dragon represents a "power" of three rather than an actual beastie. The red may indeed represent a forgotten connection to the Red lot - after all Master Benero claims Danaerys the Dragonlord is theirs.

Conversely of course, and I'm just spitballing here, the black dragon of the Blackfyres may signify a rejection of that connection in favour of an older allegianceto Valyria.

I had not really thought about a link to Volantis, but three is an important number in that city. Three triarch's rule, effectively three heads that rule together. 

As to the Blackfyres, I have mostly thought of their sigil as a bastard reversal of their houses colors, as is tradition in Westeros, but perhaps it does have something more to do with a rejection of some value or representation of House Targaryen. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I won't discount the possibilities of a red or black dragon hidden in one or more of the Temples of R'hllor.  What we have been shown so far is the black dragon.  I'm not sure if the predominance of red means red fire, red dragon or red comet.  I do think the red comet has made more than one appearance.  Melisandre calls it Dragon's Breath and I think it marks the first appearance of the comet and the tale Azor Ahai.  I think this is why Mel is now saying that Azor Ahai will be reborn.  That this is the significance of the red comet to her and the Red Lot.  

Maybe the idea of the red dragon does tie to the red comet, which could appear to be a red dragon in the sky!

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I agree that Rhaegar is tied to the phrase "the dragon has three heads", and Elia was probably aware of the ultimate goal, but I think Rhaegar's inspiration came from the past, before the conquest, hinted at by Aegon choosing the imagery of his sigil. A red dragon doesn't fit what we know of the Targaryen dragons at the time of the conquest, at least in color. Maybe it does touch back to the idea of R'hller? I think that idea of a "dragon has three heads" might have some meaning to the history of either Valyria, or the Targaryen's in Valyria. Or it's possible that Rhaegar just took a guess, based on Aegon's chosen sigil in combination with himself and his sister-wives being so strong they and their dragon were able to conquer a continent. 

Maybe. 

If Aegon's inspiration behind his banner came from something other than the idea of him and his two sisters being dragon riders, then the only other three headed being i'm aware of in the books, is the god Trios.  

Now Trios did deal with the idea of death and rebirth.  And later both Aemon and Rhaegar seem to conflate Aegon's role as the prince that was promised with Azor Ahai, a being who is reborn.  And Aegon is thought to be one of the heads of the dragon.

Trios also appears to be one of the main gods worshipped in Tyrosh.  And Aegon did make the decision to come to the aid of Tyrosh against Volantis.  

[corbon]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think Leaf's behavior here indicates that Bran could potentially call Ned back from death.

Thats not a logical corollary from her words.

Warning someone not to try (the relevant word from Leaf was seek) to do something is not an indication you believe they could do it. Its an indication you believe they might think they can do it.
It is usually used in circumstances where the deed is either impossible, or the degree of risk vastly outweighs the degree of reward - ie its very dangerous and unlikely to succeed (or both, impossible and attempts can lead to disastrous results).

That is not to say that her words explicitly indicate it to be impossible. Just that the implication from them is in the opposite direction of how you are using it.

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

Otherwise, why even tell him not to try?

Because merely trying (whether succeeding or not) could cause great harm? To him or others? 
Because its impossible and therefore a great waste of effort and energy and focus?
Because it might succeed and the result of success could be worse than not trying?
I'm sure there are more possibilities, these are just from the tip of my head.

 

In general, I'd just like to say I find the Red dragon/3headed dragon conversation very interesting, thanks all. I don't have anything to add to it, but I am enjoying listening.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

I had not really thought about a link to Volantis, but three is an important number in that city. Three triarch's rule, effectively three heads that rule together. 

I'd just clarify that I think that a Volantis link may not necessarily be significant in itself, but rather reflects the Valyrian background.

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The [red] dragon represents a "power" of three rather than an actual beastie.

I like the idea that the red dragon represents a concentration of power.  I've wondered about the Undying words: drink from a cup of ice; drink from a cup of fire; the dragon has three heads. I don't think this is a choice given to Dany and the Undying were referring to another dragon who does drink from the cup of ice.  Bloodraven , the three heads (powers) being Bran, Jon and Arya, 

Or perhaps Bran will become the ice dragon with Jon, Arya and Rickon  as the heads of the dragon.  If Rickon has an important part to play.  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Robb had been holding his breath. He let it out with a sigh and called, "Grey Wind." His direwolf moved to him, swift and silent. Now there was only Shaggy dog, rumbling at the small man, his eyes burning like green fire.

Green eyes may be as significant as Ghost's red eyes or Nymeria's eyes like gold coins.