Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[LynnS]

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In the yard below, Rickon ran with the wolves.

Bran watched from his window seat. Wherever the boy went, Grey Wind was there first, loping ahead to cut him off, until Rickon saw him, screamed in delight, and went pelting off in another direction. Shaggydog ran at his heels, spinning and snapping if the other wolves came too close. His fur had darkened until he was all black, and his eyes were green fire. 

 

It may be that Rickon is connected to the Storm gods.  Shaggy's green eyes remind me of green skies that preceed a violent storm; his coat darkening until he is all black; like the clouds of a furious and violent storm.  Hodor wouldn't go down into the crypts when both Bran and Rickon dream of Ned's Ghost.  We know Hodor is afraid of violent storms.  Perhaps he sensed the presence of the Storm gods in the crypt.  Rickon's and Shaggy's emotional states are furious and violent, like a storm.. 

[alienarea]

The dragon has three heads:

- legislation

- jurisdiction

- execution

[Melifeather]

After further contemplation I've come to a different conclusion with regards as to how Bran's interference in his father's and Jon's deaths may have actually changed the future. Bran was unable to prevent their deaths, but he may have changed some circumstances that will have a butterfly effect, which is very apropos since its a term that GRRM himself has used when talking about the show. Small changes can have accumulative effects as time goes by. 

I'll start with Ned. Going off the assumption that Bran (or Bloodraven) arranged for his fall from the tower. How might Ned's leaving have gone the first time? Yesterday I suggested Bran may have left with his father and Sansa instead of Arya. It's one thing to try and prevent his father from leaving in the first place, but would Bran have followed Arya's path? Would he have made the same choices? Would he have ended up training to be a Faceless Man? Bran wanted to be a knight and would have followed the traditional route laid out for boys, but Arya's choices were made due to the limited choices available for girls.

Now Jon. Bran didn't prevent Jon from being stabbed by his own men, but he did give him many more months to become Lord Commander. We may never know if the wilding attack led by the Magnar on Castle Black would have been successful had he died, but what if they had? If the wildings had killed most of the Watch and poured through the gate that day, would they have stopped and made the castles along the Wall their residences or would they have continued their invasion and gone south? They would have been long gone before Stannis ever arrived.

[Melifeather]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's one of the theories of mine, included in the stupidest theory you've ever heard thread.  Not so stupid anymore. 

I've gathered all my posts and reorganized them into a thread, which you can read here.

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/13/2020 at 10:18 AM, LynnS said:

Generally, I don't think Bran can't fiddle with the past, but he could be responsible for future events that have already affected the past.  The knight of the laughing tree comes to mind.  

I think the issue is when, Bran does finally become one with the weirnet, will Bran’s consciousness affect the weirnet for all time, present, future and past.  

My suspicion is that the White Walkers are basically ice golems created by the weirnet.  Now what’s interesting, is that these golems are basically created to look like knights.  They are given armor and long swords.  And perhaps not just any knights, but knights of the Kingsguard, white knights.  

There are two entities which are continually referred to as white shadows, the Kingsguard and the White Walkers.  I think there is a link and I think Bran may be the link.

GRRM’s favorite movie is the Forbidden Planet.  In the Forbidden Planet an alien computer creates an invisible monster from the ID/subconscious of the human colonizers on the planet.  I think the White Walkers may be a similar invention.

The White Walkers could be a boogeyman created by the Weirnet, which in turn is modeled on Bran’s consciousness, even though that consciousness isn’t introduced into the weirnet until the future.  

If you recall Bran loved Old Nan’s stories.  And specifically stories about the Knights of the Kingsguards and scary stories like the tales of the White Walkers/Others.  I think the White Walkers we’ve seen in the books are a conflation of those stories.  They are made to resemble the bedtime tales of the evil White Walkers and also resemble the tales of the Kingsguard knights dressed in white.

Literally, the weirnet, out of thin, frozen air, may be creating Old Nan’s stories as told to Bran.  And then using these ice golems for its own purpose.  Which is apparently to drive the wildlings south of the Wall.

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“This isn’t going to be one of those love stories, is it?” Bran asked suspiciously. “Hodor doesn’t like those so much.”
“Hodor,” said Hodor agreeably.
“He likes the stories where the knights fight monsters.”
“Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran.”

 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the issue is when, Bran does finally become one with the weirnet, will Bran’s consciousness affect the weirnet for all time, present, future and past.  

This is an interesting idea.  Does Bran become the dominant force that shapes the weirnet and how it responds to threat. I do think Bran at least is the main opponent to Melisandre and Euron who's goal seems to be to kill all the gods. So the WWs could be the line of defense beyond the Wall from incursion from the South.  Essentially crows as white as Jon Snow and the opposite to the Black Brothers.

What is the nature of the weirnet?  I've assumed that it was the weirwood trees connected by their root system,  It must include other greenseers, since Bran has seen them and whatever resides on the God's Eye.  The COTF greenseers.  I think BR refers to them as the dreamers.  Bran may well have influence over them.  

I have also wonderred if the weirnet is restricted to weirwood and whether other trees are put to use by cotf greenseers as a kind of defense system.  Soldier pines and Sentinel trees come to mind. 

Mel says the WWs are made of snow and ice and cold.  

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

But that was wrong. They weren't alone at all.

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

A sentinel tree sheds it's burden of snow and a WW appears.  Not so sure about their nature as a golem though.  That seems to fit the wights.

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The word golem occurs once in the Bible in Psalm 139:16, which uses the word גלמי (golmi; my golem),[3] that means "my light form", "raw" material,[4] connoting the unfinished human being before God's eyes.[3] The Mishnah uses the term for an uncultivated person: "Seven characteristics are in an uncultivated person, and seven in a learned one," (שבעה דברים בגולם) (Pirkei Avot 5:10 in the Hebrew text; English translations vary). In Modern Hebrew, golem is used to mean "dumb" or "helpless". Similarly, it is often used today as a metaphor for a mindless lunk or entity who serves a man under controlled conditions but is hostile to him under others.[2] "Golem" passed into Yiddish as goylem to mean someone who is lethargic or beneath a stupor.[5]

I bit about Varamyr's soul:

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

This is where I wonder if souls like Varamyr's can be bound to trees and used later to make a White Walker.  Perhaps it isn't only weirwoods that have eyes and they can be produced when the wiernet security system is tripped by someone like Sam.

The WWs we've seen so far may be tooled up as knights but they are also described as faceless. 

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

 We haven't seen any other trees, besides Weirwoods that are carved with a face, until Jon sees the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the big oak on the way to Molestown. 

Here is what Catelyn says about the Stark gods:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest.

My sense is that the souls of the cotf, wargs and skinchangers; possibly even brothers of the NW are employed as WWs in defense of the Wall.

The source of this magic seems to be north and north and north, the heart of winter.  I now wonder if what Bran saw when he looked into the soul of ice and was given terrible knowledge, was his past and future self, his own heart of darkness.

[dialt]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the issue is when, Bran does finally become one with the weirnet, will Bran’s consciousness affect the weirnet for all time, present, future and past.  [.....]

The White Walkers could be a boogeyman created by the Weirnet, which in turn is modeled on Bran’s consciousness, even though that consciousness isn’t introduced into the weirnet until the future.

Fantastic idea. 
And I also find compelling what you’ve pointed out about about the knights and the kingsguards. I would add that the Others in the text are also called twins and brothers (of Gilly’s son). And the kingsguard is also... an order, a brotherhood. Just like the NW. Their vows ( not marring etc... ) are not that different, so, to some degrees they are the “other” face of the same coin.

Brothers however are also quite often, wolves (that is how Varamyr call his wolves) and direwolves. 

I am under the impression that the recipe/equation is made of several ingredients. Direwolves and wargs included. As well as a meal made of human flesh.

Interesting  enough, Bran fits all the checkbox.

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Not so sure about their nature as a golem though.  That seems to fit the wights.

I mean golem in the very general sense of a being made of inanimate matter given life.  In this case the inanimate matter being frozen air, which is given life probably through the souls/spirts of Crasters's sons.  

I see the wights as different.  Basically corpses magically animated as opposed to being brought to life.

[Black Crow]

I agree. For some reason the two are often conflated but the Walkers are different - diametrically in that they have souls/spirits while the wights don't.

The Walkers are "golems" created out of ice and snow, but I'd argue that the souls which animate them are the Starks' nasty secret - there's an old suspicion that Craster was a Stark

[dialt]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree. For some reason the two are often conflated but the Walkers are different - diametrically in that they have souls/spirits while the wights don't.

The Walkers are "golems" created out of ice and snow, but I'd argue that the souls which animate them are the Starks' nasty secret - there's an old suspicion that Craster was a Stark

Well... Mel and Stannis shadow baby, is not a baby. But somehow Stannis own dark consciousness. His shadow in Jung terms. 
The way I see it, is that the Others are Stark period. 
The nasty secret may be just that or whatever caused as a result their creation. 
When it comes to Craster, do we really know if the Others took those children? 
Yes, he offers them to “the gods”. And it looks like that wights and others leave him alone.

But cold and... wolves may be the killers. Crows may eat that flesh too.

And what we learn from Varamyr’s pov, is also that if you eat and drink the flesh and blood of a skinchanger, something of his/her consciousness is passed to you.

I am under the impression that this detail is far more important than we think it is.

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree. For some reason the two are often conflated but the Walkers are different - diametrically in that they have souls/spirits while the wights don't.

The Walkers are "golems" created out of ice and snow, but I'd argue that the souls which animate them are the Starks' nasty secret - there's an old suspicion that Craster was a Stark

Craster giving his sons might be linked to the Night's King giving his seed and soul?

Making Craster either a descendant of the Night's King or ... the Night's King?

Unrelated, Night's King is king of the night, so his corpse bride is the Night? Tying in to the Norse mythology of Hel?

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

there's an old suspicion that Craster was a Stark

If the Starks are the "Others", then Old Nan's story of wildling women laying with the Others (Starks) to produce half human children (skinchangers/wargs) might explain the motivation of Craster's women.  To concentrate and preserve the power of kings blood. To produce half-human children and greenseers.

This could go back to the Night King's story of sacrificing his seed (Stark offspring sent to the Wall) to the Others.  The three 'prentice boys could very well be Starks who were tested in their dreams.  They didn't survive, but the Thing that comes in the night is later seen beyond the Wall with three boys following in chains (chained souls?).  Failed greenseers become white walkers?  The heart of winter is surrounded by those pierced with a spear of ice, those who failed to fly.  All of them Starks? Ned's frozen hell reserved for Starks?

I'm not certain that the White Walkers actually take Craster's boys or whether some other religious faction connected to Craster's women takes them.  They would certainly keep a close eye on anyone who is about to deliver.  Whitetree  as a focal point comes to mind.  

[Black Crow]

This is a response to all three of the posts above as they are talking along the same lines.

That statement by the old woman on the left, which appears as part of my signature block below is clear and unequivocal, GRRM wrote it for a reason. In the circumstances any old excuse could have been given to chase Sam out, but instead the Walkers are specifically identified as Craster's sons. Not necessarily a physical transformation, but using their spirits/souls to animate bodies pulled together with ice and snow makes sense given all the stuff we've been given about skin-changing.

Now as to the Stark connection, we do have a clear set of stories pointing to some kind of family rift. The Starks were anciently Kings of Winter and had a sword called Ice. Why?  

According to Old Nan the Nights King was a Stark and he and his men were giving up their sons as Craster did. His brother [Bran?] betrayed/overthrew him to become lord of Winterfell and yes, Craster - and now Gilly's son is the last of the line.

And so long as he is, the old family feud aint over 

[dialt]

On 10/16/2020 at 1:02 PM, alienarea said:

Craster giving his sons might be linked to the Night's King giving his seed and soul?

What I find interesting is that the NK is presented as someone “chasing” the corpse queen.

“A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well”

I think is possible, that he warged/skinchanged into a beast to chase and have sex with her. 

And this idea is presented to us twice in Varamyr’s pov.
“Haggon would have called it abomination, but Varamyr had often slipped inside her skin as she was being mounted by One Eye. He did not want to spend his new life as a bitch, though, not unless he had no other choice. Stalker might suit him better, the younger male … though One Eye was larger and fiercer, and it was One Eye who took Sly whenever she went into heat.”

And then of course he talks about sending his shadowcats to chase the women he wanted to have sex with.

if we accept - for the sake of the argument - the Jojen past theory, then human flash is weirwood tree “seed”. And that “ritual” would also be a human sacrifice. It’s like going around in circles. Especially if we think about the fact that if the NK and Q, had children that they “ sacrificed” most likely they used the Blackgate. So the symbolism of heating human flesh is yet again presented to us.

Not that I have answers, let alone certainties. But I feel like there’s something I miss that could make sense of it all.
 

20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Now as to the Stark connection, we do have a clear set of stories pointing to some kind of family rift. The Starks were anciently Kings of Winter and had a sword called Ice. Why?  

According to Old Nan the Nights King was a Stark and he and his men were giving up their sons as Craster did. His brother [Bran?] betrayed/overthrew him to become lord of Winterfell and yes, Craster - and now Gilly's son is the last of the line.

The possession of land and the rules of succession may play a part into this.

Remember that our fist wight is Royce. Who was sent to the NW because he came from a family with “too many heirs”.

In addition this idea of “not having” a castle or something alike is reiterated in all the 5 prologues. Beside Royce, we have Stannis blaming Robert because he gave Storm’s End to Renley. Then Chett planning not only to desert but to kill Craster so that he could take “his castle”, then Pate who dreamt about being sent into a Caste, finally Varamyr who killed and “usurped” his mentor taking possession of what we may call the free folk version of a castle. 
And of course fratricide more or less figuratively is another theme addressed in all these 5 chapters. As you may recall, I don’t think this is pure coincidence. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, lalt said:

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well”

I was wondering if this was more like what Melisandre and Stannis did? I suspect Melisandre is an undead creature and disguises her dead decaying flesh with a glamour, so the “seed” given to the Other gave birth to a white shadow - a white walker.

[dialt]

@Melifeather so do I. Honestly. But if Mel’s shadow baby, is the equivalent of a NQ’s and NK’s child, from what I get, that shadow baby wasn’t exactly a “baby” in the sense that it didn’t take the shape of an infant. To me it looks like a sort of adult. As a sort of... Other already grown. Plus he/it was a killer. Therefore, this kind of comparison imo works.

I would also notice, that when the she-direwolf and the pups are found, someone speculates that maybe the beast gave birth while already dead. Which is a very strange thing to say... but the text, this very creepy line, is here. Why? 

However, the legend of the NK and Q adds that they used to sacrifice their children. And how is it possible to sacrifice shadows? 
Of course we don’t have to take every single word/detail of a legend at face value. Still the two things (shadow babies and sacrifices) don’t work together. It has to be one of the two. Or we have to “correct” one of the two.
Which brings us again to the starting point.

[alienarea]

12 hours ago, lalt said:

@Melifeather so do I. Honestly. But if Mel’s shadow baby, is the equivalent of a NQ’s and NK’s child, from what I get, that shadow baby wasn’t exactly a “baby” in the sense that it didn’t take the shape of an infant. To me it looks like a sort of adult. As a sort of... Other already grown. Plus he/it was a killer. Therefore, this kind of comparison imo works.

I would also notice, that when the she-direwolf and the pups are found, someone speculates that maybe the beast gave birth while already dead. Which is a very strange thing to say... but the text, this very creepy line, is here. Why? 

However, the legend of the NK and Q adds that they used to sacrifice their children. And how is it possible to sacrifice shadows? 
Of course we don’t have to take every single word/detail of a legend at face value. Still the two things (shadow babies and sacrifices) don’t work together. It has to be one of the two. Or we have to “correct” one of the two.
Which brings us again to the starting point.

Maybe the shadow babies of the Nightking and his queen just became solid because of the cold?

Also, all of the shadow babies of Stannis are male, i.e. copies of him, and all the white walkers in the prologue look like brothers.

We need to find the ice woman.

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, lalt said:

I would also notice, that when the she-direwolf and the pups are found, someone speculates that maybe the beast gave birth while already dead. Which is a very strange thing to say... but the text, this very creepy line, is here. Why? 

A corpse can expel a fetus after enough gases from decomposition occurs. The real question is how the pups survived until that happened? And it’s clear that’s how it did happen, because of the noted scent of corruption.

19 hours ago, lalt said:

However, the legend of the NK and Q adds that they used to sacrifice their children. And how is it possible to sacrifice shadows? 

“After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others...” The reader jumps to the conclusion that the sacrifice must have been “children” simply due to what Craster had been doing, but that’s not confirmation. That’s an assumption.

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

Also, all of the shadow babies of Stannis are male, i.e. copies of him, and all the white walkers in the prologue look like brothers.

We need to find the ice woman.

When Royce, Will, and Gared were tracking the wildling raiders, Will reported back:

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"Fallen," Will insisted. "There's one woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the branches. A far-eyes." He smiled thinly. "I took care she never saw me. When I got closer, I saw that she wasn't moving neither." Despite himself, he shivered.

I suspect Will saw them in the process of transformation, because after he brought Royce and Gared back to the campsite, the bodies were gone and white walkers appeared shortly after. No wights were noted. Just the Others. I think the wilding group became white walkers and the woman up the tree was the “ice woman” priestess. 

I think one of Tormund’s sons were in that group and he actually described what happened to his son to Jon:

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”And Torwynd ... it was the cold claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon. He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him.”

I agree this quote could be describing how Torwind became a wight, but the phrasing, “he rose pale” sounds like a description  of ice, and “the cold claimed him” sounds similar to the Others - the brothers- coming for Craster’s sons. 

 

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

A corpse can expel a fetus after enough gases from decomposition occurs. The real question is how the pups survived until that happened? And it’s clear that’s how it did happen, because of the noted scent of corruption.

“After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others...” The reader jumps to the conclusion that the sacrifice must have been “children” simply due to what Craster had been doing, but that’s not confirmation. That’s an assumption.

When Royce, Will, and Gared were tracking the wildling raiders, Will reported back:

I suspect Will saw them in the process of transformation, because after he brought Royce and Gared back to the campsite, the bodies were gone and white walkers appeared shortly after. No wights were noted. Just the Others. I think the wilding group became white walkers and the woman up the tree was the “ice woman” priestess. 

I think one of Tormund’s sons were in that group and he actually described what happened to his son to Jon:

I agree this quote could be describing how Torwind became a wight, but the phrasing, “he rose pale” sounds like a description  of ice, and “the cold claimed him” sounds similar to the Others - the brothers- coming for Craster’s sons. 

 

What about Morna White Mask?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

What about Morna White Mask?

Possible although I think Val fits the bill too:

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They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.