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Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

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10 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I thought Heresy is a random thoughts thread?

We usually stray from the op rather soon.

Maybe "random thoughts" would fall under the Small Questions thread?

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50 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I have wondered if planetos itself could be viewed as the sister "moon" to the moon in the Nissa Nissa story, then the celestial event of the red comet striking the moon was viewed as something that happened to or affected both sisters. The comet struck the moon, (or alternately planetos) but the meteors that rained down upon planetos brought magic and forever changing the planet. The scream that Nissa Nissa made was actually the regrettable unintended consequence of the birth of magic. Planetos was now "broken". I go back and forth with this idea and an alternate of there having been two moons after all, because in our real world there are scientists that theorize that our moon was formed when another planet named Thea struck Earth. The red comet could be the remains of "Thea".

The key is that the moon kissed the sun and dragons were born.  Comets kiss the sun and and since the first moon cracked open; that implies two halves (since we crack eggs in half).  So the original comet is one 'moon', what returns from the sun is another moon and debris.  But essentially the same moon in diminished form.  The debris falls to the planet if it is rocky  and the rest are burned up in the atmosphere giving the fiery swords tale and the return of dragons.  Which is exactly what the red comet does.  This is the moon that will return and kiss the sun.   

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

The scream that Nissa Nissa made

I'll come back to my thought son Nissa Nissa later.  I have to make soup now. :D

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Before I get to Nissa Nissa; I'm inclined to think the Targaryen religion is a form of ancestor worship.  Their gods are dragon gods who reincarnate.  This inplies soul migration and I don't think dragons on their own have souls per se.  However I think they bond with the blood of the dragon and Targ souls can migrate to the dragons that are bonded to them. 

I think we see this in Dany's wake the dragon dream.  Ultimately, she is transformed in spiritual fire and joined with the dragon.  So potentially her soul could migrate to Drogon upon her death.  I think this is why the Targs have dragon gods.  She recieves emporary immunity from fire from the singing dragon and I suspect knowledge to hatch her eggs.

I think Nissa Nissa is not just AA's beloved wife, but a dragon with his wife's soul.

To go back o the red comet, it's not a comet in the real sense of the word.  Comets are icy snowballs and kissing the sun would likely destroy it.  And of course they are not red.  So let's suppose that Martin's magic comet also contains metal and rock as well as ice.  The rock and metal are infused with fire magic from the sun and the bleeding stars fall to Planetos as metal and rocks; now,  the source of both valyrian steel and dragon eggs.  

The sword that AA makes or learns to forge though trial and error; I surmise is made of this sky metal and he isn't successful termpering the blade until it is plunged in the the heart of his dragon Nissa Nissa, turning it into the red sword.  As Aemon points out it must have heat and this is the metal that drinks in the sun.  Dragon's blood and dragon fire are probably the only thing that can cause AA's sword to be bright as the sun and a burning blade at the same time.   

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18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Before I get to Nissa Nissa; I'm inclined to think the Targaryen religion is a form of ancestor worship.  Their gods are dragon gods who reincarnate.  This inplies soul migration and I don't think dragons on their own have souls per se.  However I think they bond with the blood of the dragon and Targ souls can migrate to the dragons that are bonded to them. 

I think we see this in Dany's wake the dragon dream.  Ultimately, she is transformed in spiritual fire and joined with the dragon.  So potentially her soul could migrate to Drogon upon her death.  I think this is why the Targs have dragon gods.  She recieves emporary immunity from fire from the singing dragon and I suspect knowledge to hatch her eggs.

I think Nissa Nissa is not just AA's beloved wife, but a dragon with his wife's soul.

To go back o the red comet, it's not a comet in the real sense of the word.  Comets are icy snowballs and kissing the sun would likely destroy it.  And of course they are not red.  So let's suppose that Martin's magic comet also contains metal and rock as well as ice.  The rock and metal are infused with fire magic from the sun and the bleeding stars fall to Planetos as metal and rocks; now,  the source of both valyrian steel and dragon eggs.  

The sword that AA makes or learns to forge though trial and error; I surmise is made of this sky metal and he isn't successful termpering the blade until it is plunged in the the heart of his dragon Nissa Nissa, turning it into the red sword.  As Aemon points out it must have heat and this is the metal that drinks in the sun.  Dragon's blood and dragon fire are probably the only thing that can cause AA's sword to be bright as the sun and a burning blade at the same time.   

Replace dragon's with direwolves and Targaryens with Starks ...

The Starks' original sword Ice is missing as well as Azor Ahai's sword (named Fire?) but we have Dawn.

Or is Dawn the sword of Azor Ahai?

Looks like we need to apply the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

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I'm not convinced that Dawn is a renamed Ice. There isn't enough evidence explaining what Ice was, but the blade that Jon Snow dreamt of was a flaming sword while he was encased in black ice.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

 

 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I'm not convinced that Dawn is a renamed Ice. There isn't enough evidence explaining what Ice was, but the blade that Jon Snow dreamt of was a flaming sword while he was encased in black ice.

Woe to Melisandre.

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12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I prefer to leave things as they are.

The strength of Heresy lies in its diversity as a thread.

When I started it nine years ago, it was based around an heretical notion that things weren't as popularly believed; essentially that the Wall simply existed as a physical barrier to protect mankind from the horror in the north, that the Starks were the good guys warning of the great white shark, and that Danaerys the Dragonlord was going to be the saviour - unless of course Jon Snow pulled the sword from the stone.

Rather to everyone's surprise it proved popular. In fact Ran closed the first thread [then called The Wall, the Watch and a Heresy] because it was getting stupidly long, and in the same breathe invited me to refresh it, at which point it was posted simply as Heresy 2 and so on., 

However, while normally threads on a particular subject naturally peter out after a while Heresy has continued to evolve organically. While my own interest still focuses on Ice and the Starks, rather than the dragons [who I see as thoroughly bad] the thread is surprisingly broad and generally avoids bloodshed as a result because it encourages open debate rather than entrenched positions.

In short, it works and so don't "fix" it

I disagree. I believe that the strength of Heresy is derived from the diversity of its MEMBERS and their contributions rather than the diversity of topics. 

I guess I was looking at it from a different perspective. I can understand exactly why you might say that if it’s broke then don’t fix it. And, technically speaking, you are correct. There is absolutely no problem with the Heresy Thread itself. As a matter of fact, it’s the standard of success imo. I’m more concerned with how the the rest of Westeros is impacting the Heretics. It’s slowly stifling creativity and fostering a sense of defensiveness here. We are now having to remind EACH OTHER that our head cannon is unproven. And it’s become increasingly difficult to offer a fresh perspective for discussion. Not because there aren’t any, but because there is so much resistance to overcome. And practically speaking, using one thread bulks everything all together and makes it difficult to review and build on existing information and ideas  God Bless @wolfmaid7 for going through and creating a table of contents for the old threads. But is anyone even maintaining that? (I haven’t looked... Just did. It hasn’t been updated since Heresy 190) Not to mention that there are frequently ongoing discussions on more than one topic. It can get difficult to follow at times. I just know that I personally would like to have a larger surface to work with, but feel like there isn’t one available  

 

Edited by Lady Dyanna

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

the Targaryen religion is a form of ancestor worship.  Their gods are dragon gods who reincarnate. 

Something struck me today about the Targaryens...Aegon the Conqueror created the Iron Throne from the swords of the defeated. Did he choose the name because the swords were made of iron or is there another reason having to do with the warding of magic? Harren the Black, who built Harrenhal on the shore of the God's Eye, was one of the more famous castles destroyed by Aegon. The God's Eye by all appearances looks like a good location for a meteor impact. Harren also famously cut down thousands of weirwoods for its construction. The God's Eye is of course where the Pact was signed on the Isle of Faces.

Edited to add: did the removal of the Targaryens lead to the degradation of the Wall and the leaking of magic back out into the world? Were the Targaryens a ward themselves?

Edited by Melifeather

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4 hours ago, alienarea said:

Replace dragon's with direwolves and Targaryens with Starks ...

The Starks' original sword Ice is missing as well as Azor Ahai's sword (named Fire?) but we have Dawn.

Or is Dawn the sword of Azor Ahai?

Looks like we need to apply the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

I'll give you my thoughts on this tomorrow.  I'm tired from running around today.

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1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I disagree. I believe that the strength of Heresy is derived from the diversity of its MEMBERS and their contributions rather than the diversity of topics. 

I agree wholeheartedly.
Its one of the few places I see around where the true meaning of 'diversity is strength' (which means a diversity of viewpoints, ideas and philosophies, but is almost universally corrupted) is actually borne out.

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It’s slowly stifling creativity

Is it? Really?
How? When? Where? In what way?
Or are you just expressing a downer that you feel right now?

 

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

We are now having to remind EACH OTHER that our head cannon is unproven.

And thats a bad thing?
Isn't that the point of participating with others? To avoid getting so caught up in wild false pathways that we end up lost and alone? To fuse together creative juices in positive directions, with each other's assistance, rather than drifting alone down the path of madness? To learn from those DIVERSE perspectives rather than staying tightly inside our own personal lane?

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

And it’s become increasingly difficult to offer a fresh perspective for discussion. Not because there aren’t any, but because there is so much resistance to overcome.

Where is the resistance to fresh perspective?

Why would 'fresh perspectives not slowly reduce and/or get more difficult to come up with over an extended time discussing the same finite data set? Surely with a finite dataset there are a finite (though huge) set of perspectives possible. And each time one is used (and very many have been over the years) the pool remaining become more difficult to find. Especially for those already here.

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

 I just know that I personally would like to have a larger surface to work with, but feel like there isn’t one available  

Is there a limit on the threads one can create?

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13 hours ago, alienarea said:

Replace dragon's with direwolves and Targaryens with Starks ...

The Starks' original sword Ice is missing as well as Azor Ahai's sword (named Fire?) but we have Dawn.

Or is Dawn the sword of Azor Ahai?

Looks like we need to apply the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Heisenberg uncertainty principles then. :cheers:

I think there are three swords, in keeping with Martin's use of trios:

- The sword Ice won in a trial by champion by the Last Hero defeating Winter and making the Last Hero the first King of Winter.  It is made of a magical form of ice and is hidden in the crypts of Winterfell.  It is a cursed object.

- The sword Lightbringer which can be any valyrian steel blade plunged into the heart of a dragon, or into someone who is made with dragonfire, or serves as a vessel for dragonfire.  Someone like Melisandre. 

- The sword Dawn which is made from a source of magical metal but is untainted by fire or ice magic and remains in it's pure form. This is the sword that brakes the back of winter, ends the long night and heralds the return of dawn.   This is the sword of Justice. Only someone who is worthy of it, someone with a pure soul can wield it.    

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19 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is the prophecy that we first hear from Mel about AA:

'When the stars bleed" is changed to take advantage of the appearance of the red comet. The red comet is not a star but celestial events which she uses to manipulate the public.  I don't think the 'bleeding stars" are a reference to a celestial event; but rather, the  poor fellows who wear a red star or mark themselves with such.  

So we have the long summer followed by the cold breath of darkness and the return of the bleeding stars  and the warrior's sons (frozen rainbows, dancing and dying).  This supposedly heralds the return of AA with his flaming sword.  

This is what Cersei says about the earlier incarnation of the warrior' sons:

The swords in an earlier version are strange bedfellows and I don't think their appearance during Aegon's conquest is their 'first' appearance but rather the first recorded appearance.  I'm inclined to think that the swords of the warrior's sons have some kind of kinship with the Dawn Sword as a symbol of their unity although that connection seems to be lost to history.

I think if AA is appearing as a hero with a fiery sword to Mel's Lot, that can't be a good thing given their agenda.  It could be that AA is their champion presents an opposing force to the warrior's sons or Mel is misappropriating the Hero. 

She seems to be seeking a different outcome from past historical events.

What we have are two seven-pointed stars commemorated within the Faith. A red star (the bloody star) and a crystal that fractures light?  Why do the poor fellows mark themselves with a red star?  Could it be that this does signify the red comet and it has appeared before in prehistory?  That it marks a time when the song of earth (Planetos) was fractured creating the imbalance, the songs of ice and fire?  Could it be that the seven-sided crystal marks the time when the Dawn Sword was forged? 

Does the red star represent the sword forged with blood magic?

 

If we want to go back to basics on this one, we need to ask what's actually meant by bleeding stars.

First of all, its stars [plural] rather than the red comet [singular], and how do they bleed? There's no suggestion of a physical rain of blood and in any case its the stars not the clouds which are bleeding.

This therefore suggests the sky turning red and there may therefore be a link to Lord Eddard's fever dream.

Now so far as a cause for this, there are two obvious possibility; one being the dust thrown up by a celestial impact strike, while the other is a significant volcanic event. Both could be justified by the text, with the latter being particularly relevant to dragons and dragon-lore, but whatever the cause, turning the sky red washes out the rainbow. Instead of a gloriously diverse technicolor its all either dark night or red dawn.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

If we want to go back to basics on this one, we need to ask what's actually meant by bleeding stars.

First of all, its stars [plural] rather than the red comet [singular], and how do they bleed? There's no suggestion of a physical rain of blood and in any case its the stars not the clouds which are bleeding.

This therefore suggests the sky turning red and there may therefore be a link to Lord Eddard's fever dream.

Now so far as a cause for this, there are two obvious possibility; one being the dust thrown up by a celestial impact strike, while the other is a significant volcanic event. Both could be justified by the text, with the latter being particularly relevant to dragons and dragon-lore, but whatever the cause, turning the sky red washes out the rainbow. Instead of a gloriously diverse technicolor its all either dark night or red dawn.

Uh-oh! Ned's dream again.  I think there is a lot to dig into here and I want to explore the origins of the first long night as a celestial or geological event.  I have a birthday lunch to orchestrate today and an angel food cake to bake; so I'll have to come back later.

In the meantime:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. "The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it's an omen of victory for Riverrun—he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue." She sighed. "I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color."

"That thing's not crimson," Ser Brynden said. "Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That's blood up there, child, smeared across the sky."

"Our blood or theirs?"

 And,

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"And you, brother," said Ser Illifer. "Who are you?"

"Poor fellows," said a big man with an axe. Despite the chill of the autumnal wood, he was shirtless, and on his breast was carved a seven-pointed star. Andal warriors had carved such stars in their flesh when first they crossed the narrow sea to overwhelm the kingdoms of the First Men.

 

 

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Don't want to derail this thread, but my news feed is reporting on a new book by a guy from Entertainment Weekly, offering an oral history of the mummers version. Ordinarily we steer clear of the mummers, but GRRM is quoted saying that the chief mummers proposed to cut out Rickon Stark on the grounds that he doesn't appear to do anything... GRRM, however, flatly refused:

"The biggest thing was Dan and David called me up and had the idea of eliminating Rickon, the youngest of the Stark children, because he didn't do much in the first book. I said I had important plans for him, so they kept him."  [my emphasis]

Edited by Black Crow
spelling

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11 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"And you, brother," said Ser Illifer. "Who are you?"

"Poor fellows," said a big man with an axe. Despite the chill of the autumnal wood, he was shirtless, and on his breast was carved a seven-pointed star. Andal warriors had carved such stars in their flesh when first they crossed the narrow sea to overwhelm the kingdoms of the First Men.

I think this bit here supports my contention that the bleedings stars are the poor fellows.  Carving a star into your flesh could be considered a bleeding star.  They also wear red stars on their clothing.  Of more interest to me is that the Andal warriors are the progenitors of the sons also did the same.  I wonder if there is a connection between the appearance of the red comet and the  bleeding stars of the warriors, in other words, does the red star represent the comet.

Comets having a reliable periodic orbit, their return can be predicted or simply marked in some religious interpretation.  If the first invasion of the Andal warriors coincided with the red comets return; and was marked by the bleeding stars ;  we could say the comet has a periodic orbit of six, four or two thousand years, depending on when the first Andal invasion occurred.

I'm inclined to go with six thousand years which would place an earlier appearance at 12,000 years.  

     

  

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Don't want to derail this thread, but my news feed is reporting on a new book by a guy from Entertainment Weekly, offering an oral history of the mummers version. Ordinarily we steer clear of the mummers, but GRRM is quoted saying that the chief mummers proposed to cut out Rickon Stark on the grounds that he doesn't appear to do anything... GRRM, however, flatly refused:

"The biggest thing was Dan and David called me up and had the idea of eliminating Rickon, the youngest of the Stark children, because he didn't do much in the first book. I said I had important plans for him, so they kept him."  [my emphasis]

Yup. I saw that. I really hope we see Rickon’s return and learn a few of the mysteries he’s been dragging out thus far in Winds, because Dream is seeming more and more like a “pipe dream” as the years go by.

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think this bit here supports my contention that the bleedings stars are the poor fellows.  Carving a star into your flesh could be considered a bleeding star.  They also wear red stars on their clothing.  Of more interest to me is that the Andal warriors are the progenitors of the sons also did the same.  I wonder if there is a connection between the appearance of the red comet and the  bleeding stars of the warriors, in other words, does the red star represent the comet.

Comets having a reliable periodic orbit, their return can be predicted or simply marked in some religious interpretation.  If the first invasion of the Andal warriors coincided with the red comets return; and was marked by the bleeding stars ;  we could say the comet has a periodic orbit of six, four or two thousand years, depending on when the first Andal invasion occurred.

I'm inclined to go with six thousand years which would place an earlier appearance at 12,000 years.  

     

  

I think its the other way around. The [celestial] stars bled and their carved ones are a symbol of that in the same way that the Red Lot do - in opposition to the rainbow

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31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think its the other way around. The [celestial] stars bled and their carved ones are a symbol of that in the same way that the Red Lot do - in opposition to the rainbow

Why did the Andal warriors carve seven-sided stars into their flesh when they first invaded Westeros?  Was it to commemorate an event that turned the sky red and blocked out the sun?  Or were they fleeing from their enemies who's strength in fire magic was increased by the passing of the red comet? 

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