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Black Crow

Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

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On 9/17/2020 at 3:16 PM, Black Crow said:

Don't want to derail this thread, but my news feed is reporting on a new book by a guy from Entertainment Weekly, offering an oral history of the mummers version.

This new book is titled: Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon.; which is a quote from GoT:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmet covered his face was like nothing human. His feet hammered a frantic beat against the dirt floor, slowed, stopped. Thick globs of molten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk to smoldering … yet no drop of blood was spilled.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

I came across it re-reading Dany's POV in GoT. This could be what Moqorro is implying when tells Tyrion that he sees dragons true and false.  Even though Dany and Viserys are of the blood of the dragon; Viserys is not a true dragon.  Is it time to crack some pots?

We know that Dany will be protected from the flames of Drogo's funeral pyre in some way; but what is protecting Melisandre from burning up?

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Melisandres' transformation has echoes of Dany's dragon dream:  

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

I'd go so far as to say that Mel has been transformed by a dragon god.  One she insists exists and is male.  Where would she encounter such a dragon if not in the Great Red Temple?  Everything about it sounds like a dragon pit for the Hidden Dragon in this story.   The flame she drinks down and sustains her is from the the Cup of Fire.  Magical tracings on her skin to transform her into a vessel herself.  She isn't made with ordinary fire.  The question is whether or not she is also a true dragon. 

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

This new book is titled: Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon.; which is a quote from GoT:

I came across it re-reading Dany's POV in GoT. This could be what Moqorro is implying when tells Tyrion that he sees dragons true and false.  Even though Dany and Viserys are of the blood of the dragon; Viserys is not a true dragon.  Is it time to crack some pots?

We know that Dany will be protected from the flames of Drogo's funeral pyre in some way; but what is protecting Melisandre from burning up?

Melisandres' transformation has echoes of Dany's dragon dream:  

I'd go so far as to say that Mel has been transformed by a dragon god.  One she insists exists and is male.  Where would she encounter such a dragon if not in the Great Red Temple?  Everything about it sounds like a dragon pit for the Hidden Dragon in this story.   The flame she drinks down and sustains her is from the the Cup of Fire.  Magical tracings on her skin to transform her into a vessel herself.  She isn't made with ordinary fire.  The question is whether or not she is also a true dragon. 

 

 

It would also be a great twist if Melisandre were Azor Ahai.

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On 9/20/2020 at 3:58 PM, alienarea said:

It would also be a great twist if Melisandre were Azor Ahai.

Thank god!  I thought I was talking too much. I see her as the Nissa Nissa type even if she doesn't know that herself.  I came across another version of the Lightbringer story told to Davos by Salladhor Saan:

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A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

Essentially the same story as Melisandre plus a few additional details (Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies :)):

- AA forges the sword in a temple so this places him in a religious building in Essos; rather than Westeros or Starfall.

- He can go without sleep for one hundred and eighty days and nights, so he does not require sleep, not unlike Melisandre.  So most likely he is a fiery priest of the temple.

- The sword takes Nissa Nissa's blood, soul, strength and courage into the steel.  Plus valyrian steel can draw into itself fiery magic or dragon's breath.  The reason why the white hot blade doesn't cool.  

- Nissa Nissa cries out in anguish and ecstasy; key words used for the transformations of both Dany and Melisandre.  Potentially, Nissa Nissa is also a fiery wench of the Temple.  

ETA:  As for the crack across the face of the moon; since nobody else mentions a crack in the moon; I'm going to say this is once again, an appearance of the red comet.  Something akin to Catelyn saying that the comet is a long scratch against the sky, the face of god.  

ETA:  What are the sacred fires? Dragon's breath? 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

"Lord Snow." The voice was Melisandre's.

Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night. "You will freeze your fingers off," Jon warned.

"If that is the will of R'hllor. Night's powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in god's holy fire."

 

The sword was smoking as he thrust it through Nissa Nissa's heart; she cries out in anguish.  Is this the smoke and salt tears portion of the prophecy?  

 

Edited by LynnS

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Anyone want to discuss the beserker dream?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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Or maybe we could revisit the red door?  Martin said the door is important, but why?  The red door figures prominently in her wake the dragon dream.   She calls it the big house with the red door where she had a room of her own.  I still maintain that the big house with the red door is  somewhere on Lys:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

They wandered for half the morning. She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki. A birdseller taught a green-and-red parrot to say her name, and Dany laughed again, yet still refused to take him. What would she do with a green-and-red parrot in a khalasar? She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. When Doreah looked longingly at a fertility charm at a magician's booth, Dany took that too and gave it to the handmaid, thinking that now she should find something for Irri and Jhiqui as well.

Is it possible that the big house isn't an ordinary house at all?

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A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"The red priests have a great temple on Lys. Always they are burning this and burning that, crying out to their R'hllor. They bore me with their fires. 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door … was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio's estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him. His fingers dug hard into her arm, demanding an answer. "I don't know …" she said at last, her voice breaking. Tears welled in her eyes.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

"… the dragon …"

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

Dany did not want to talk about the dragons. Farmers still came to her court with burned bones, complaining of missing sheep, though Drogon had not returned to the city. Some reported seeing him north of the river, above the grass of the Dothraki sea. Down in the pit, Viserion had snapped one of his chains; he and Rhaegal grew more savage every day. Once the iron doors had glowed red-hot, her Unsullied told her, and no one dared to touch them for a day. "Astapor is under siege as well."

 

 

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I'm sure many interpret this dream differently, but I see echoes of Marvel comics and two of their characters with magical black armor: the Black Knight and Destroyer. I would really love to read input from our resident Marvel expert Pretty Pig (Some Pig on HoBaW), but she really hates being tagged, so don't do it! Maybe by some miracle she is following this thread and will jump in? Full essay by Some Pig regarding the Black Armor can be found here.

Stan Lee and Jack Kirby recycled certain elements across different characters for their personal protection gear. For example they created Uru which is the magical metal of Asgard used for Thor's hammer, Odin's spear, and Captain America's shield. Uru is non-sparking and difficult to mold often requiring extreme methods to forge it. In GRRM's world, something requiring dragon fire perhaps? Uru can absorb magic which is something we've discussed about Dawn or the Stark's Ice. The magical properties of the metal can then enhance the abilities of the person using the object, thus the reason why Arthur Dayne was such a good swordsman. 

Back to Marvel's Destroyer armor, which is made of an unknown metal - the wearer would then have superior strength, durability, speed, stamina, agility, and reflexes. There is a downside to wearing the armor too long in that the "kill, kill" mentality of the armor can take over the wearer's mind - thus the connection to Jon's berserker dream. 

The Destroyer armor is not something that can be physically put on, but rather "warged" or projected into leaving the body lying helpless in a catatonic state. When not being "warged" the suit is hidden. In the Destroyer armor's instance, its hidden by Odin, but perhaps Jon's suit of black ice is something hidden by Bloodraven or the Children? This would certainly be a different outcome for Jon rather than being reanimated like Coldhands, Beric, and Catelyn. He could warg his body into this special black ice armor. The only catch is that his body would need to remain alive if he's to follow the same path of the Destroyer, because if the human that is in the Destroyer dies, the spirit leaves the armor and returns to the body, and then Odin hides the armor again.

Edited by Melifeather

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On 9/19/2020 at 7:40 AM, Black Crow said:

Defeating Fire dragons may need something other than wings. An Ice dragon might be something quite different from a scaly beastie breathing peppermint rather than chill

Or it could be exactly that, an ice dragon. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The is the strangest part of that dream.  A death that was more than death, an undeath?

Just reviewing the prologue of Clash of Kings; Maester Cressen is mortified that the prophecy is true and deathly afraid.  One the day the comet appears, the white raven arrives.  But it's Patchfaces interpretation of the prophecy that I find interesting.  The shadows come to dance and to stay.  And under the sea, fish fly on wings made of scales.  I thought this was about Dany' dragons fishing in the sea; but under-the-sea implies north of the Wall.  So perhaps the White Walkers fly on wings made of scales; the icy dragon breath.

The 3EC may be implying the same thing when he tells Bran that wings are made of other things than feathers.  It's after that, that he takes Bran north and north and north.

Is this the reason that dragons will not cross the Wall?

Edited by LynnS

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39 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I would really love to read input from our resident Marvel expert Pretty Pig (Some Pig on HoBaW),

Yes , I'd love to hear from Pretty Pig on the subject.  I'm no expert.

The whole dream seems to be a conglomeration of Jon's anxieties over letting the Wildlings pass the Wall.  Some of it seems prescient: being abandoned and alone defending the Wall and wielding a burning sword.. 

The red sword burning in his hand could be related to his fulfilling the role of AA.  Long Claw is  valyrian steel and all he has to do to turn it into the sword of legend is plunge it into Mel's heart.  We are never told why AA had to make such a sword or what happens next.  The rest of that story seems to be playing out at the Wall. 

Strangely, Jon is clothed in black ice and that implies that his body temperature is low enough for rain to freeze on contact.  So I'm not getting a fiery body on Jon.  His sword hand has been burned and since R'hllor keeps telling Mel that Jon is his instrument; I think of Jon as a kind of fiery hand of R'Hllor.  Perhaps ice wasn't the only magical presence in the Mormont's room.

All of this puts some curve balls into the prophecy.  Jon would have to be born among salt and smoke and reborn amidst smoke and salt tears.  What makes him AA reborn is not his icy or fiery resurrection but the fact that he wields the fiery sword. 

If it's true, that throws the ToJ under the bus.  No salt and smoke anymore than there were vats to render Lyanna's body into bone.

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59 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The magical properties of the metal can then enhance the abilities of the person using the object, thus the reason why Arthur Dayne was such a good swordsman. 

Yes.  I'm also thinking about meaning the eight-pointed star; seven stars of the faith plus one.  The one who leads them into battle, another star come down to walk the earth, the original king crowned by the seven.

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Alien Area is on vaycay for a few weeks and I'll be away as well for a week or so this Friday.

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I was thinking about Melisandre's statement that the Wall is one of the hinges of the world.  A hinge being something where you hang a door, the Black Gate of course.  Which leads to the magical realms of ice. 

Martin has said the red door is important and so I wonder if it is also hung on one of the hinges of the world.  So Dany's house with the red door could represent the fiery hinge.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

"… the dragon …"

 

 

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