Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[St Daga]

@LynnS called my attention to this OP and I thought I might join in, although I am very late to the party. I am trying to catch up on the posts, and I see there have been many interesting things mentioned that have already triggered some interesting thoughts for me. I tend to wander in thought but am going to try to keep my initial posts to the concept of the initial post and the idea of the rainbow spectrum in the story. And by the by, I see my profile picture has disappeared into the aether again! 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:48 AM, Black Crow said:

For this particular iteration we kick off with a thought-provoking guest OP by Lady Dyanna:

While watching the sun set not long ago, it began to dawn on me that throughout the course of the day, the sky can be filled with numerous colors, all dependent on the angle with which the sun strikes the horizon (and some other stuff too I’m sure). The closer it is to the horizon the more rapid the progression of color. At both sunset and dawn it cycles rapidly as it transitions through all of the shades of the rainbow between white light and the absence of light. Coincidentally we also see another duality here, that in reality is a Trinity

1.Night 

2.Day 

3.The transition between the two.

This inspired me to take a bit of a closer look at the idea of the symbolism of the rainbow and how it might relate to our tale. 

 

ROYGBIV. It’s one of, if not the very first thing that we learn about rainbows as children.  It spells out for us each of the colors that are distinctively present. The only one of these that we do not see present in the sky on a routine basis is green. But it is present under certain conditions such as during a bad storm. But it’s these seven colors that when combined together form pure white light. Interesting to note here is that the sword Dawn is noted to be “alive with light.”  It’s led many to ask what color the light, believing it to have been intentionally omitted. Maybe it wasn’t. Maybe it all needs to be working together in harmony to create a pure white light? This seems to fit in well with the descriptions of misty predawn mornings that turn crisp and clear. (Another idea to get back to might be the idea of green being a color that needs special conditions to appear. Seems reminiscent of wildfire)

 

An additional potentially noteworthy coincidence is the number 7. There are 7 distinct colors within one rainbow, just as the Faith of the Seven has 7 faces of the same God. And low and behold one of the symbols of their faith is the crystal which refracts the light into its separate rainbow colors. Seems like it ties together well. Even more interesting, to me at least, is that the number associated with the Old Gods is 9. Coincidentally if you consider the two extremes of the scale, white light, and the complete absence of light you arrive at 9. This seems potentially significant. What do these extremes represent? What could the fact that they have been omitted from the Faith of the 7 yet are still present with the Gods of old signify? Also interesting to note is that there are two traditional chakra systems believed in by different cultures. One focuses on only 7, all of them contained within the human body. But there is also another 9 chakra system. In this style there are two additional higher level chakras included. One is believed to connect us to “source energy” or the universe. The other to other dimensions. Huh. That 9 in relation to the old gods starts to make a lot more sense with that one.

 

Moving on to look at the symbology of rainbows in general, many times Rainbows are used to indicate a passage from one realm into another. A perfect example of this is the Bifrost Bridge of Norse mythology. We also see this when our pets die and we say that they have “crossed the rainbow bridge.”  If we look at the idea of the Wall being a symbolic rainbow, it lines up with the idea that Melisandre floats as it being one of the hinges of the world. The black gate in particular. Is it a portal to the “underworld.”  It seems so as Bran is baptized with his saltwater tear. “What is dead may never die.” Sounds a bit ominous for Bran and his companions. 

 

I believe that there’s much more to explore within the motif of colors and rainbows in general, but think this might be a good jumping off point for now, as there are almost too MANY directions this discussion seems to lead. I’ve had difficulty narrowing it down and it’s still pretty broad. I’m hopeful that if we can put aside our own individual head canons for a moment, that there are many good insights to be found in tasting the rainbow. 

Nice OP @Lady Dyanna Before jumping into the rainbow symbolism, I want to say I like the idea of day, night and the transition between the two. But that transition happens twice daily, so I don't know if that is a distinction or not. Dawn and Dusk are both tied to a twilight period, and I do think that liminal time period is important. Important in each day, but also in the transition of a year, and in this world, it might relate to certain areas of the map. Twilight as a word doesn't come up very often. Dawn does and I often associate it with the Dawn sword. Dusk also comes up a fair amount, although not as often as dawn. But twilight only has 9 mentions in the novels. Twice in the Prologue to game, just before crossing the paths of the Others, a couple times in Dany's story line, one of which ties to Rhaegar, and once just before she is carried into MMD's tent ritual and has her "wake the dragon" dream. Once in Jon's storyline in the Skirling Pass, which is interesting because it's before Jon has his Tree Bran vision. And a couple times it's tied the evening twilight, the period of time when fires are lit to honor R'hller. The quote about Rhaegar is tied to "his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings". What twilights did Rhaegar mean? Are twilights in this story a prelude to great clues or magic?

As to our concept of ROYGBIV, I am not sure how directly it translates to GRRM's rainbow spectrum. Perhaps it's absolute, but I am not sure if the colors are ever specifically addressed in the text. When it comes to Renly's rainbow guard, he has seven warriors but only six of them are tied to specifuc colors, and one of those six colors is purple, which is not a color of our spectrum. We assign indigo and violet as two different colors, but GRRM doesn't seem to. He uses purple and I wonder if he is perhaps combining indigo and violet as purple, as he ties Targaryen's to both of those colors. Or at least Rhaegar is tied to indigo in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. The 7th member of Renly's rainbow guard is Renly himself, and he wears a "rainbow colored" cloak as Lord Commander of Renly's kingsguard, but those colors are never specified. Does he wear just purple in his cloak, or does he have shades of indigo and violet? I don't know if it's a clue or not, or approved by GRRM but an image of Renly on the wiki page shows his rainbow cloak with only six distinct colors, not an indigo and a violet, perhaps just one color to represent purple.

Another thing about indigo that stands out to me is how it's tied most specifically to House Mallister of the riverlands, and also it is tied to a ship called the Indigo Star, a Quartheen vessel which delivers a message to Daenerys from Cleon of Astapor. I love the symbolism behind the names of ships in this story (I used to discuss this with @PrettyPig, although I don't see her posts much anymore , and I haven't paid any attention to this ship, but I am putting in on my list of ships to investigate.

So, does the Faith of the Seven, which seems to be tied to crystal's of rainbow colors, use just purple as well as part of it's representation, or doe sit use indigo and violet. Because if it does just use purple to combine both those other shades, then we might be missing a shade of rainbow. If the Faith attributes a rainbow color to each of their seven gods, what color is attributed to the Stranger, I wonder?

I do find the idea of rainbows as being tied to transition between worlds as quite interesting. In some of our world mythos, that is true. And I can even see where this idea goes in regards to the Faith of the Seven and it's seven heavens and seven hells, but I am not sure about the wall or the black gate. Sometimes the wall reflects many colors, but mostly it's shades of white or grey. Myself, I tend to think of grey as tied to the color of the in-between's, the liminal spaces, but my own life might corrupt my thoughts on this. But the Stark's are tied to a type of underworld, their own crypts, and the Stark's are tied to both white and grey in their sigil color, grey in many of their eye colors, grey in the colors of Winterfell itself. So to me, this hint of grey to the underworld or otherworld seems distinct. But I might be picturing a different color spectrum than the rainbow, but a color spectrum of white, grey and black, which  does represent a trinity of sorts. 3 and 7 seem to be important numbers in this world, and could translate into their own important color spectrums. 

 

On 9/3/2020 at 7:37 AM, alienarea said:

Dawn being alive with light and having been forged from a fallen star hints at it being some kind of crystal.

and

On 9/3/2020 at 8:39 AM, Melifeather said:

I wanted to turn attention to is the literal sword, Dawn. We know its a literal sword, because House Dayne has possession of it and was last wielded by Ser Arthur. Dawn is a rainbow sword, a milky-white crystal alive with light forged from the heart of a fallen star.

It's pretty open to interpretation what "alive with light" means. Is it many colors shimmering or is it just a bright whiteness? I can go both ways on this, especially for Dawn. Our only description of it that tells us anything besides that it's a white colored sword is from Ned's fever dream, and that "alive with light" might only be something he either saw at the toj, or that he dreams. In reality, Dawn is most likely white, but I do suspect it has a crystal in it's hilt, which could represent a rainbow, which I see other's have commented on as well.

 

On 9/4/2020 at 7:34 AM, Melifeather said:

It's easy to dismiss Renly's rainbow guard as a symbol of gay pride, but perhaps that's not how Renly actually saw it? They could have been his idea of a recreation of Dawn, as if he was trying to conjure a magical protection some how?

This is a great line of thought and I suppose it ties to GRRM's perception as well. Was he planting that rainbow flag and tying it to both Renly and Loras as a hint of their relationship, or does it mean something different than a gay pride symbol. Because I think that in the case of Renly's Rainbow guard, it is a hint of gay pride, as that flag most commonly has 6 colors, not the seven colors as seen in the ROYGBIV rainbow color spectrum. I am not sure that I think Renly's choice of colors has anything to do with the Dawn sword, but I can understand that is open to interpretation.

 

On 9/4/2020 at 5:11 AM, LynnS said:

The business of the sword being alive with light.. this is something out of Ned's dream and yet nobody else has described the dawn sword as alive with light.  It's always the white sword.   So is this something that Ned only saw in a dream or did the sword appear this way in reality during Ned's fight with Arthur?  This could have triggered Howland to take action. 

I have always wondered if the Dawn sword being "alive with light" is tied to it choosing it's wielder, and if that is so, what does that mean for Arthur Dayne who is currently holding it? Why is his smile sad? Because I agree with your interpretation of Dawn being white, and if it was showing different colors at that time, it was something mystical. I know you mention Ned's blood but Ned see's the sword as "alive with light" before it's shed blood, as far as we know. Unless something happened before Ned and his six arrived. Also, what if it's not the sword blade that is "alive with light", but it's hilt? Because Ned tells associates the blade with milkglass. Maybe whatever was "alive with light", rainbow colored or not, has something to do with the hilt, Perhaps a crystal in the hilt, which might tie back to the Sword of the Morning constellation.

 

On 9/4/2020 at 5:06 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I’m not so sure the rationale behind Renly’s choice of having a rainbow guard means anything, but rather the fact that it IS the Rainbow guard that is significant. Interesting to note is that I’m fairly certain that the only two remaining survivors of the guard are Loras and Brienne. Loras is currently burnt half to ashes and on deaths doorstep. And last seen Brienne wasn’t fairing so well either after traveling the Riverland's underworld and fighting ghosts and fire wights like Lady Stoneheart. Another thought that strikes me is that both are currently bound by oaths. Brienne to Catelyn and Loras to Renley. Is that why they’re still alive?

I am not sure why Renly chose the rainbow, or perhaps only used 6 colors for his rainbow (or what GRRM was trying to tell us with his own choices) but three of the seven initial members of the Rainbow Guard are still alive. Renly and Brienne are both in tuff shape (if we can believe what we are told about Renly) but Parmen Crane, known as Parmen the Purple is still alive. I believe he is being held at Highgarden under Renly's directive. The Cranes are interesting to me since they are said to descend from Rose of Red (nee Blue) Lake. Interestingly, red and blue make purple, and that is the color that was assigned to Parmen Crane. Parmen interestingly to me, has survived Renly's wrath twice, the first when Renly is killed and Loras goes into a murderous rampage, and then later he is captured and held by Loras. We don't know those details but Loras certainly would still be harborning some bitterness towards the men he feels didn't guard Renly's life, yet Parmen twice escapes his wrath. 

 

On 9/4/2020 at 8:35 PM, LynnS said:

I don't actually think the dawn sword (or the Wall) refract light because they are not translucent.  I think they reflect light or shine with light.  The wall takes on the color of the sky, grey, white or blue when it shines with light.  The dawn sword may also reflect the reds of dawn also, making it a red sword alive with light.

It is possible that the Dawn sword was reflecting light from an outside source, such as the sky's light, as you point out. From the sunset/sunrise, or perhaps a fire that was burning?

 

On 9/5/2020 at 4:27 AM, Black Crow said:

Perhaps another way of looking at it is that rainbows [and ice] reflect a light source, but are not a source of light in themselves

This makes the most sense to me, but I still question if, with magic, a sword or crystal, could light itself like a shimmering ball of color. Are all things possible if we use magic as an explanation? Will this be GRRM's final answer for most of these questions?

 

On 9/6/2020 at 1:54 AM, LynnS said:

I'm also intrigued by Jon's description of frozen rainbows as though the light is captured by the Wall.  Also dancing and dying  are words I associate with battle.  Could this be some foreshadowing and who are the rainbows? 

I don't think I have ever really picked this out of the text, and I certainly have never focused on it, but how does something frozen, rainbow or not, dance or die? It must have to do with a reaction to light, or an absence of light.

 

On 9/6/2020 at 11:48 AM, alienarea said:

My problem with the Rainbow Guard is that I understand it as having a different meaning of rainbow than the one Lady Dyanna is looking at. My interpretation of Renly having a Rainbow Guard is that it is in the sense of the LGBT community, with Renly being openly gay and Brienne being a touch of transgender. Nothing wrong with this at all, but maybe not the rainbow we're looking at for clues to the story.

I think this could be the case. GRRM puts it in the text, as a nod to lifestyle, but it's also a bit of a red herring. An attempt to catch our attention and distract us from the true hints that involve rainbow colors and magic.

 

On 9/6/2020 at 3:58 PM, alienarea said:

The reader knows about Renly and  Loras, there is no secret here.

I don't really know that it was much of a secret in world either, except to people like Sansa. Stannis throws it it Renly's face, with his comments about Margaery remaining a maid. 

 

On 9/6/2020 at 8:55 PM, corbon said:

 

Quote

The Rainbow Guard isn't meant to symbolize Renly's sexuality. It was more of a culmination of several unrelated things, such as the fact that he'd already used white for the Kingsguard and black for the Night's Watch. A rainbow is seven colors combined together in one object - he compared it to a shamrock being a Irish Catholic symbol of the Holy Trinity, three parts which make up one thing. Plus it has seven colors and is tied to the Seven, plus worshipers of the Seven use prism rainbows in their temples.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/To_Be_Continued_Chicago_IL_May_6_8/

 

This is interesting, since in the text, GRRM only attributes six colors to the Rainbow Guard, which would match the current Gay Pride flag, while he mentions rainbow's as being tied to seven colors and that he then ties the the Faith of the Seven. Perhaps GRRM is as confused as we are?

 

On 9/7/2020 at 8:37 AM, Melifeather said:

If rainbows indicate magic, what does that say about the magic hating Faith of the Seven? Did they deliberately try to change the narrative and assert that there is no such thing as magic and that all unexplained mysteries are due to this seven faceted god? It's a strategy employed by the Catholic Church.

I do like the possibility that rainbows are representative of magic, but I don't know that I believe the Faith of the Seven truly hate magic. I think they, like the Catholic Church, have a lot of magic imbedded within itself. You mention the adopted pagan practices and I think that the Faith of the Seven might be very like that. As a matter of fact, I speculate that the prayers and the hymns of the Faith of the Seven have magic imbedded in them, and the more people who say or sing a prayer/hymn together increases it's magic potential. I know that's pretty wild (something I have been working on for a long while) but I think there are hints within Sansa's storyline that her type of magic could be tied to singing, not just in the act of telling stories but in hymns that are sung.

 

Wow! I am only 4 pages in and there is A LOT of information here. Good stuff, as usual. I am going to wrap this post up since it's nearly a mile long, and mostly I think people avoid reading long posts. I hope to finish up with peoples posts on rainbow symbolism, before I try to connect back to the sword symbolism discussed in the post. 

[LynnS]

Many thanks for joining the conversation from your regular forum at the Last Heart.  This is really exciting and thought provoking!  I'm out of town until next Monday but I promise that I will reply properly to both yourself and Mourning Star then.   

[alienarea]

I am one of those who understand magic as an absence of knowledge, i.e. the explanation for things that cannot be explained.

[St Daga]

On 9/7/2020 at 2:24 PM, Melifeather said:

Neither white nor black are on the color spectrum so I think we're only looking at six colors plus either black or white. Pure white is an absence of color and black is the absence of light. All other colors are reflections of light. Since black is not reflected then technically its not a color. The seven commonly accepted colors of a rainbow are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet/indigo, and purple, but for the purposes of the Faith of the Seven only six colors are acknowledged: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple. Each color corresponds to a facet of their Faith - Father, Smith, Warrior, Mother, Crone, Maiden, and Stranger - although the only facet that has a color associated with it is the Smith. Jon Snow said one of the wanderers (planets) is sacred to the Smith: the red wanderer. I guess we're to assume the other six planets reflect other colors?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

I propose that the Stranger is associated with black, because it is neither male nor female just as black is neither light nor color. I guess the same might be said about white since it is the absence of color, but my opinion is colored (har!) by stereotypical associations with white and black. White is purity, honor, surrender, good,  and innocence. Black is darkness, evil, power, death, and mystery.

Renly's Rainbow Guard had six colors. Loras, as Lord Commander, didn't have a designated color. He only wore the striped rainbow cloak. I do wonder though if he continued to wear his silver armor with the twining black filigree with the sapphire forget-me-nots? If so, his silver armor might represent "light". The other six guards wore colored enameled armor with their striped rainbow cloaks:

I would agree that red seems to be associated with the Smith. Jon tells us pretty plainly in the quote that you used about the Smith. I find that interesting since the planet we see from our night skies that is red is Mars and is associated with war or a warrior god, Mars in the Roman or Ares in the Greek, so it's a bit of a departure for GRRM to go with a smith for the red planet. Although with Azor Ahai mythos, he seems to have been both a smith and a warrior.  

I am not sure about seven or only six colors being attributed to the faith's color spectrum. I would agree there are only 6 colors tied to Renly's Rainbow guard, but the Faith's color spectrum might tie to the ROYGBIV spectrum that was initially discussed in the OP. If I had to tie the Stranger to one of those seven colors, I think I would attribute blue the Stranger. Catelyn seems to make a tie to the Stranger having star-eyes, 

Quote

And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes.  ACOK-Catelyn IV

So, star eyes in this story seem to be tied to the color blue, either in the Symeon Star Eyes story or just in the blue color of the Other's and wights eyes. Interestingly, I have never really noted before that the Stranger is noted to be a "wanderer", which could be another hint at a planet. Perhaps one of the planets that can be seen from Planetos has a more blue like tone to it? 

 

On 9/7/2020 at 4:11 PM, LynnS said:

I'm not sure what the colors represent except that the Faith worship different aspect of the light...  which brings to mind the Lord of Light.  Maiden, Mother, Crone represents the stages of life for women and I think Smith, Father, Warrior represents the same stages or occupations for men.  The Stranger representing death that comes for everyone at the end of life.

It does make sense to me to tie the Faith's God's with the Faith's colors. I think the Stranger represents death, or the transition into a new type of life, but also represents both male and female, or at least does not detract from male or female. 

 

On 9/7/2020 at 4:20 PM, Melifeather said:

Loras didn’t take a color so he either represents pure white light or black, and as such he represents the Stranger.

Loras does wear a rainbow cloak as representative of his role as Lord Commander, and this also represents the other colors of the rainbow. But is it 6 colors, as would fit Renly's color guard, or is it seven, as tied to a more traditional spectrum. In Renly's Rainbow case, I see the six color's, with violet and indigo seemingly being combined into purple. But is that the same for the Faith's spectrum?

 

On 9/8/2020 at 7:11 AM, Melifeather said:

Of the seven facets only the Crone is associated with carrying a light, which may suggest that the Stranger does have a color. 

This is  a good point. So, if the Crone and her lantern do represent a color, what would it be. I would guess yellow or orange, as representing a lantern's light. My gut leans toward yellow. 

Quote

There the Crone's Lantern, four bright stars that enclosed a golden haze. ASOS-Davos VI

So, perhaps yellow does fit the idea of "golden haze". It's not a planet that is the lantern, but a representation of 4 stars that seem to create a golden haze.

 

On 9/9/2020 at 10:06 AM, alienarea said:

And going back to the rainbow:

If we have greenseers, maybe Melisandre is a redseer?

Complementary colours, you know

Actually, this makes sense to me. We know that the COTF noted their special members by red or green eyes, tying that to "sight". Maybe the greenseer's see through the weirnet and the "red-seer's" see through the flames. Mel comes to mind, as well as perhaps the Ghost of High Heart, although she might see through dreams and not flames. I am not sure how that works for Bloodraven, who has red eyes but is noted to be a greenseer! 

 

On 9/10/2020 at 2:22 AM, Black Crow said:

And of course, as we all know an inability to distinguish between Green and Red is the most common form of colour-blindness

This combination of blood and green that runs together might also tie to bloodstone, a crystal with combined red and green colors, one bled into the other. Perhaps that does tie the Bloodstone emperor to the Children of the Forest, at least through his "tiger"  wife.

 

On 9/11/2020 at 7:20 AM, LynnS said:

This is what Tyrion says about the Faith:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

"This is Andalos, my friend. The land your Andals came from. They took it from the hairy men who were here before them, cousins to the hairy men of Ib. The heart of Hugor's ancient realm lies north of us, but we are passing through its southern marches. In Pentos, these are called the Flatlands. Farther east stand the Velvet Hills, whence we are bound."

Andalos. The Faith taught that the Seven themselves had once walked the hills of Andalos in human form. "The Father reached his hand into the heavens and pulled down seven stars," Tyrion recited from memory, "and one by one he set them on the brow of Hugor of the Hill to make a glowing crown."

Magister Illyrio gave him a curious look. "I did not dream my little friend was so devout."

There is some interesting stuff here.  The business of pulling down the star to make a glowing crown.  This sounds like the rotation of Planetos and the star falling down behind a hill; the glowing crown might be the sun coming up at dawn.  I'm reminded of places like Stonehenge only without the standing stones.  Also that each of the stars walked the hills in human form. This could be the symbolism behind Renly's rainbow guard.  There is also a king made by the Father who wears the glowing crown.  Whomever Hugor was the  High Septon is meant to occupy that place.

This is the other things Tyrion says about the seven:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

Tyrion thought of Tysha. He glanced out at the fields where once the gods had walked. "What sort of gods make rats and plagues and dwarfs?" Another passage from The Seven-Pointed Star came back to him. "The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the Mother made her fertile, and the Crone foretold that she would bear the king four-and-forty mighty sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the Smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates."

"Your Smith must have been Rhoynish," Illyrio quipped. "The Andals learned the art of working iron from the Rhoynar who dwelt along the river. This is known."

    

A couple things popped into my head while reading this. First of all, the seven stars pulled from heaven that made up the crown of Hugors/the Faith is very interesting. We have hints of rainbow colors being tied to the Faith, and perhaps this hints at specific colors for those stars. I can think of three Greek goddesses that are tied to starry crowns, Nyx, Asteria and Hecate, and all three are tied to the primordial night. Selene is also sometimes shown with a star crown, but since she is tied directly to the moon, it's more often a moon crown. Another myth that comes to mind is the Crown of Ariadne, which was said to have helped light the way for Theseus to escape the labyrinth in Crete, and ended up in the sky as Corona Borealis. Mary, Mother of Jesus is sometimes depicted in art with a star crown. 

As to the second quote, the passage with a girl with eyes like deep blue pools who was made fertile (hinting that she wasn't before for some reason) and then that she would bear Hugor 44 mighty sons, reminds me a bit about the Night's King and his Corpse Queen. Perhaps because she was a corpse, she wasn't fertile until the Maiden gave her this gift of procreation? But is there a price for that? Perhaps the price is giving your children back to "the gods" in some way?

 

On 9/12/2020 at 6:36 AM, LynnS said:

I'm still picking at the Faith of the Seven and it occurs to me that the seven stars may not be individual stars but a constellation that had meaning to the Faith's early followers.  Martin does seem to be using constellations that exist in the reader's framework like the Ice Dragon (Ouroboros)  and the Sword of the Morning  (Orion's Sword).   The constellation Orion The Hunter/Warrior is also made of seven stars.  Martin gives us a few recognizable, but I'm more curious about the stuff he leaves out. 

It occurs to me that a culture that views the stars within a magical framework would create myths about their gods using constellations.  An example is the Dothraki Stallion that mounts the earth prophecy.  Martin does give us the Stallion constellation and when it rises above the horizon, it might be described as mounting the earth.  

For the sake of argument, I'm going with the premise that the Hunter is the constellation with seven stars that has mystical significance to the Faith.  When it is observed falling beneath the horizon; it could be interpreted that the gods came down from the sky to walk the earth.  At the same time that the sun is rising; giving us the seven colors of dawn as Lady Diana has observed. The glowing crown could .be none other than the sun itself; the source of the refracted light to crown a king.  Indirectly, the Faith are  sun worshippers and their king is anointed by god.

 

There is a constellation in world that is called the King's Crown, which could hint to Hugor of the Hill's crown. The wildling's refer to it as The Cradle.

Quote

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." ASOS-Jon III

Perhaps there is something the should tie the King's Crown to also being know as the Cradle, but we haven't been given enough information yet. In our world, we have a constellation called Corona Borealis, which I did touch on earlier in the post. It is also called the Northern Crown. I don't know if that could touch back to the Stark's in any way or to the crown that was worn by the Kings of Winter.

 

On 9/12/2020 at 9:21 AM, Melifeather said:

The seven stars that are sacred to the Faith are called wanderers, so if they move then they are planets or comets.

I have never considered comets as wanderers but this might be the case. I think in our ancient world, the planets that could be seen with the naked eye were considered "wanderers" but also the sun and the moon were considered wanderer's. I wonder how that could work in GRRM's myth cycle if there really had been two moons at some point.

 

I tried to stick to the rainbow motif but I was a bit side tracked by the star imagery in the crown. I guess if the crown ends up holding a rainbows worth of colors, it's still all connected. Another long post while catching up. Sorry.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I tried to stick to the rainbow motif but I was a bit side tracked by the star imagery in the crown. I guess if the crown ends up holding a rainbows worth of colors, it's still all connected. Another long post while catching up. Sorry.

The stars, planets, and constellations are connected to rainbows thru the Faith of the Seven, so you did good and stayed “on topic”. You may have missed the quote I found which states Renly based his Rainbow Guard on the Faith. That’s why I said the Faith must be using only six colors plus either white or black, or maybe the Stranger is both black and white? All of Renly’s guards had rainbow cloaks, but then their armor was painted a different color of enamel except for Loras who didn’t have a designated color for his armor.

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure that there's any conflict in the differing number of colours. The point about the rainbow is that it does represent a "spectrum" of beliefs bound together in unity, or as Melcher expressed it a pact with God. It doesn't matter what the colours are or how many they are, but that they represent the light.

[LynnS]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:06 PM, Mourning Star said:

I'm inclined to think the house with the red door was in Westeros, probably Dorne, and think it explains a lot of oddities.

I'm not familiar with this theory.  Can you explain?

 

[LynnS]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:06 PM, Mourning Star said:

While I see a lot of parallels between Bran and Dany, I disagree the "wake the dragon" dream is parallel to wolf dreams, I think this dream, before the birth of any dragons, is more akin to Bran's falling dream, seeing from above both in a physical and chronological sense... with wings that don't have feathers.

Yes, quite right. This is more like the 3EC dream than a wolf dream.  With the exception that Dany does become the dragon in her dream and this part of the dream is similar to a wolf dream.  She is a true dragon rather than a false dragon.

[LynnS]

On 9/28/2020 at 4:51 PM, St Daga said:

Also, what if it's not the sword blade that is "alive with light", but it's hilt? Because Ned tells associates the blade with milkglass. Maybe whatever was "alive with light", rainbow colored or not, has something to do with the hilt, Perhaps a crystal in the hilt, which might tie back to the Sword of the Morning constellation.

I've wondered if the dawn sword has a stone in the hilt that refracts light as well and I don't think it's a coincidence that the constellation has a star in it's hilt.  Or that the house sigil is an 8-pointed star and sword.  There must be some historical connection here with the swords and stars of the Faith and House Dayne.

If the religious tradition says that seven stars came down from the sky to walk the earth, then I think the 8th star represents the Sword of the Morning and the one who stands in place of the king.  The one who meets out the kings justice. 

The 8-pointed star is made of two squares; one representing the cardinal points on a compass and the other square; the elements: earth, air, fire and water.  Together they represent the buddhist eight-fold path of balance and right living.  I guess I'm not surprised that the sigil has been changed in the wiki to an 8-pointed star.    

The 8-pointed star is also symbolic of Venus which is both the morning star and the evening star at different times of the year.  I think this is pointing to Brienne the Beauty, as the one who  walks the path, who will be morally worthy to claim and wield the sword of justice.

[St Daga]

On 9/30/2020 at 6:38 PM, Melifeather said:

On 9/30/2020 at 3:54 PM, St Daga said:

I tried to stick to the rainbow motif but I was a bit side tracked by the star imagery in the crown. I guess if the crown ends up holding a rainbows worth of colors, it's still all connected. Another long post while catching up. Sorry.

The stars, planets, and constellations are connected to rainbows thru the Faith of the Seven, so you did good and stayed “on topic”. You may have missed the quote I found which states Renly based his Rainbow Guard on the Faith. That’s why I said the Faith must be using only six colors plus either white or black, or maybe the Stranger is both black and white? All of Renly’s guards had rainbow cloaks, but then their armor was painted a different color of enamel except for Loras who didn’t have a designated color for his armor.

If you mean the SSM on the rainbow and Renly's color guard, then I seen it. It was posted a couple of times. But it is still unclear to me what the intent might be in the choices. In that SSM, GRRM specifically states that a rainbow is seven colors, yet in his own "rainbow" for Renly, he uses only six colors, and uses the color of purple instead of either indigo or violet. Whether the details don't matter, it is different. Which then leads me to question if the rainbow associated with the Faith of the Seven has seven separate colors or only six, with possibly one being represented by clear or dark/white or black, as you also mentioned above. But when GRRM talks of seven standard colors but then only uses six, while at the same time denying that Renly's rainbow color choice as anything to symbolize Renly's sexuality, it seems a bit unclear to me. I guess that is like most things with his story, the finer attention you put to detail, the more the image seems to blur, when it should do the opposite. 

[Mourning Star]

On 10/4/2020 at 9:38 AM, LynnS said:

I'm not familiar with this theory.  Can you explain?

Dany's memories of the house with the red door include details like a lemon tree outside the window, her bare feet on grass, and sweet smells.

None of these things fit in Braavos, and we are told repeatedly that lemons come from Dorne.

Quote

Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool?

Braavos meanwhile is described as treeless, and smelling like the sea, not perfume (or flowering fields).

Quote

Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door … 

The red door appears connected to Westeros several times, like the quote above, and Dany remembers sailing into Braavos (which doesn't make sense for a newborn, but does fit with the idea that she arrived in Braavos only after being torn from the house with the red door). There is never a mention of Dany going back to Braavos.

Quote

No squall could frighten Dany, though. Daenerys Stormborn, she was called, for she had come howling into the world on distant Dragonstone as the greatest storm in the memory of Westeros howled outside, a storm so fierce that it ripped gargoyles from the castle walls and smashed her father's fleet to kindling.
The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

Dany can barely remember the house with the red door, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Viserys lied to her about her past, he was obviously abusive. We do know he lied about the "Usurper's knives", as Robert never sent any assassins before the wine merchant, the story of servants robbing them but leaving their mother's crown is suspicious, and it sounds from Cressan's prologue chapter that there were no gargoyles torn from Dragonstone in any great storm (like supposedly happened when she was born).

Quote

The maester did not believe in omens. And yet . . . old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets. He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been here so much longer than he had, and would still be here long after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak . . .

Rather than running from city to city, from hired knives (which we know is false) and in poverty (while rich Illyrio plan's to marry her to Drogo?), it seems like there could be a better explanation. It's possible she was being toured around Essos to establish her identity.

Quote

"Dothraki neither buy nor sell. Say rather that her brother Viserys gave her to Drogo to win the khal's friendship. A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father's throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning."

So where did she come from?

Well, I suspect Ned told us himself:

Quote

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

If he wanted to protect a child from Robert's wrath, which was over the child's parentage and discernable because of that child's hair/eye color, he would send them into exile.

So if Ned found two children at the Tower of Joy, and he took dark haired Jon home claiming him as his own, he might have sent a purple eyed gold haired girl elsewhere to be kept safe.

Quote

Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. 

As it turns out, the Red Viper of Dorne was in Braavos at about the time Dany would have been leaving the house with the red door...

Quote

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen."

I would suggest the man Dany remembers was not Willem Darry (who, along with the Sealord of Braavos, died sometime shortly after the pact was signed), and the house with the red door was in Dorne, before Oberyn brought Dany to Braavos as part of Doran's plotting. He may have been Walys Flowers, WInterfell's missing Maester from before Robert's Rebellion. Perhaps Dawn was not the only thing Ned left at Starfall, and perhaps it is knowledge of this whole ruse that makes Darkstar the most Dangerous man in Dorne. It's even possible that the house with the red door is located at High Hermitage, but obviously a lot of this is speculation. We may get some answers with Hotah on his way there in Winds.

And while I won't dive too deep into it in this post, I think this explanation of Dany's past also presents a meaningful way to interpret what she saw in the House of the Undying, and how the song of ice and fire is about the promised prince and the return of dragons (and why Rhaegar looks at her), why she sees a vision of a wolf headed king looking at her with appeal (Stark), why she recognizes Rhaegar but not Aerys, and the list goes on. It also explains why the shadows she saw in Mirri Maz Dur's tent were a man aflame and a giant wolf.

Dany also turns out to be a natural rider (on a Stark colored horse), and is notably fond of flowers.

Quote

Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowers every day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt." She always felt safer wrapped in Drogo's lionskin.

While I can't claim to have thought of all this stuff myself, I do think it's a fun theory which could well turn out to be true.

[St Daga]

On 10/4/2020 at 10:24 AM, LynnS said:

On 9/28/2020 at 2:51 PM, St Daga said:

Also, what if it's not the sword blade that is "alive with light", but it's hilt? Because Ned tells associates the blade with milkglass. Maybe whatever was "alive with light", rainbow colored or not, has something to do with the hilt, Perhaps a crystal in the hilt, which might tie back to the Sword of the Morning constellation.

I've wondered if the dawn sword has a stone in the hilt that refracts light as well and I don't think it's a coincidence that the constellation has a star in it's hilt.  Or that the house sigil is an 8-pointed star and sword.  There must be some historical connection here with the swords and stars of the Faith and House Dayne.

If the religious tradition says that seven stars came down from the sky to walk the earth, then I think the 8th star represents the Sword of the Morning and the one who stands in place of the king.  The one who meets out the kings justice. 

The 8-pointed star is made of two squares; one representing the cardinal points on a compass and the other square; the elements: earth, air, fire and water.  Together they represent the buddhist eight-fold path of balance and right living.  I guess I'm not surprised that the sigil has been changed in the wiki to an 8-pointed star.    

The 8-pointed star is also symbolic of Venus which is both the morning star and the evening star at different times of the year.  I think this is pointing to Brienne the Beauty, as the one who  walks the path, who will be morally worthy to claim and wield the sword of justice.

I think it's unclear that the Dayne sigil truly has eight points on its star. I know that is what the wiki shows, but that has been altered over time, and nothing in the details clarifies completely. The ray of light, or comet tail, trailing from the star has seven rays, but I don't know if that's intended to be symbolic either, and tied to the Faith or the rainbow symbolism that we are taking about (but I could totally buy a bright white light/star/comet trailing a classic rainbow of color. I am aware that the Dayne flag seems to show a white trail, however. The wiki also ties us to information that the Dayne sigil is "lilac" in color, but we don't have any text to confirm that or not. I am certainly curious, because lilac is a color that is associated with some interesting characters, such as Viserys Targaryen and Varys, most notably. But lilac is also tied to a dress Arya wears that Lady Smallwood puts her in, a dress that Nymeria Sand wears and Dareon, deserter of the Night's Watch. But is lilac a hint about them and House Dayne? Does lilac really matter to House Dayne? Does it connect House Dayne to House Targaryen? Or can we really take much away from a color listed on the wiki/Citadel's Heraldry page?

I do like the idea of the eight pointed star perhaps being related to compass points, because it might hint to us of several other points in Westeros, if we consider House Dayne south. 

And maybe some of this is going to be lost in the fine details, such as the Pleiades, which are called the Seven Sisters, but sometimes referred to as only Six Sisters, but the constellation actually has ten pretty easily visible stars on a clear night with nine having separate names, and really contains around 800 stars. So, clear as mud again...

Your mention of the Star of Venus is interesting, because it ties back to Sumerian/Babylon and the Goddess Ishtar, who is associated with the planet Venus, hence our Greco-Roman philosophers making this connection between the symbol. But the Star of Ishtar can also sometimes have 6 points or be replaced with a rosette symbol. There are always possibilities for changed interpretation, but if the Dayne sigil does officially have eight points, this does make sense to me, since I have long felt that the symbolism of the Sword of the Morning/Evening has something to do with how the planet Venus (or a Venus like planet?) relates to Planetos. Especially considering Ashara sounds quite like Ishtar, but also is associated with the Goddess Inanna, which has always reminded me of Lyanna in several ways. 

It hints to me about a Stark/Dayne connection, perhaps light and dark. Especially since the ancient Greek's thought that Venus was two separate planets, a morning and evening star, and therefore gods, called Phosphoros (light-bringer) (also sometimes referred to as Eosphoros/dawn-bringer) when it was a morning star, and Hesperos, meaning (western one) for the evening star. Eventually even when it was understood that the planet was one, with two rising points, it was often still referred to as the Latin Lucifer or Vesper, depending on it's rise position in the sky, And I am sure you are all aware of this information on the planet Venus, it's just good clarification every now and then. 

[St Daga]

On 10/1/2020 at 2:08 AM, Black Crow said:

I'm not sure that there's any conflict in the differing number of colours. The point about the rainbow is that it does represent a "spectrum" of beliefs bound together in unity, or as Melcher expressed it a pact with God. It doesn't matter what the colours are or how many they are, but that they represent the light.

I am not trying to intend any conflict, I am just curious and trying to clarify if there is possibly quite different meaning or intention in some of GRRM's choices when it comes to this rainbow of colors. Such as he tells us a rainbow is seven colors, yet then clearly defines Renly's color guard with six specific colors. Maybe that blurred line by GRRM is as good an explanation that we will ever get from GRRM that the amount of colors, or their separate names, really do not matter to the overall image he is presenting. 

[corbon]

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Dany's memories of the house with the red door include details like a lemon tree outside the window,

This one is accurate

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

her bare feet on grass, and sweet smells.

These two are simply wrong.

The first is explicitly a vision she had (in the HotU - likely more metaphorical than 'real' anyway, as are the other visions), not a memory (and there's no grass either).

The second is presented as something almost the opposite of how it is actually used in the text. 

Quote

He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. 

The rest of the theory is full of similar basic comprehension ineptitude or deliberate misrepresentation. I'll not derail here by breaking it apart step by step, thats been done before in other threads.

The only thing that can be said for it is that lemon trees are indeed not native to Braavos. Which is irrelevant in the house of a rich person, well sheltered and protected (the courts and gardens of the mighty are explicitly excepted from the generally treeless nature of the city). 

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am not trying to intend any conflict, I am just curious and trying to clarify if there is possibly quite different meaning or intention in some of GRRM's choices when it comes to this rainbow of colors. Such as he tells us a rainbow is seven colors, yet then clearly defines Renly's color guard with six specific colors. Maybe that blurred line by GRRM is as good an explanation that we will ever get from GRRM that the amount of colors, or their separate names, really do not matter to the overall image he is presenting. 

"conflict" was probably the wrong word to use, but I think we're probably in agreement that there is no significance to the precise content of the rainbow. The point is that it represents diversity rather than the extremes of Black and White- or of an overall  wash of red obliterating the diversity 

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Dany's memories of the house with the red door include details like a lemon tree outside the window, her bare feet on grass, and sweet smells.

None of these things fit in Braavos, and we are told repeatedly that lemons come from Dorne.

I agree.   Dany's memories are early childhood memories, fragmented and fading and the story she tells around them are unreliable.  Viserys is also an unreliable narrator and his tales of the usurper chasing them are untrue.  This is more like projection and perhaps tales that have been told to him by his various hosts. Dany says that the servants stole all their money and valuables and contradicts that later when she says their money ran out and they had to sell their mother's crown.   So how reliable is her assertion that the house with the red door is in Braavos?  And why was she told this story?  Was it to hide the true location?

Of her early memories we have:

- visual memory of the big house with the red door and lemon tree outside her room (animal carvings on the roof beams)

- olfactory memory of perfumes and scented oils

- tactile memory of warm arms to hold her and soft hands

- a memory of a man whom she thinks is Willem Derry

- and I would add that some of her early memories show up in her dragon dreams.  

The idea that Oberyn Martell took her back to Dorne with him after he signed the contact with the Sealord of Braavos is interesting.  I would have to ask why Dany wasn't mentioned in the contract and how she would later be collected by Viserys.  It seems to me that she wasn't named in the contract because Viserys and Dany were split up and hidden in different locations.

My choice of location for Dany is Lys, because she can be hidden in plain sight and her Targaryen lineage wouldn't stand out in the population. Lys' principle industry is the making of perfumes and scented oils.  Although lemons are not mentioned specifically, they also grow fruit trees and the climate is conducive for growing and exporting lemons.

I'm not sure who the old bear could be.  A master of arms training doesn't have soft hands. Warm arms to hold you and soft hands sounds like a woman, possibly an early memory of her mother or nursemaid.  So potentially, Willem Derry is who he appears to be.

Martin has said that the red door is important.  Why is an ordinary house important?  I'm thinking that the house is not ordinary and the red door, like the black gate is a doorway to the gods and the realm of magic and sorcery. 

This leads me to think that she was housed in a temple complex belonging to the Red R'hllorists and potentially she was exposed the dragon god they use and worship at an early age.  Those memories aren't awakened until she reaches puberty.  Sallador Saan tells Davos that there is a great red temple in Lys and they are always burning things.  I think this is the big house with the red door of Dany's memory. 

 

 

 

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, corbon said:

The rest of the theory is full of similar basic comprehension ineptitude or deliberate misrepresentation. I'll not derail here by breaking it apart step by step, thats been done before in other threads.

Corbon, this is insulting and I want you to knock it off.  

[Mourning Star]

14 hours ago, corbon said:

This one is accurate

Well at least you agree here! haha

14 hours ago, corbon said:

These two are simply wrong.

Mmmmmmmm..... I don't think so, although technically grass and bare feet aren't in the same sentence, the repeated associations of the red door to home and home to grass, flowers and mountains remains. I should have phrased it differently.

On the smell one I think you are just off base.

14 hours ago, corbon said:

The first is explicitly a vision she had (in the HotU - likely more metaphorical than 'real' anyway, as are the other visions), not a memory (and there's no grass either).

Is your suggestion here that there was no house with the red door? That a little girl didn't run towards it? I'll give you that I shouldn't have said bare feet on grass, rather bare feet... and grass... but if that is really the depth of your objection I just have to smile.

Quote

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

...

A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. 

This discussion started with my pointing out the first of these quotes, and how it directly reflects and parallels Dany's first chapter.

14 hours ago, corbon said:

The second is presented as something almost the opposite of how it is actually used in the text. 

You went a wildly different direction here, I was talking about flowers, but if you want to compare the sick old men that works too... look at how Aemon's illness is described, wildly different than "Darry's". Braavos is cold, not sickly sweet.

I was referring to the smell of the city, not the dying old men.

Quote

 She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. 

...

But Braavos lay before her. The night air smelled of smoke and salt and fish.

These just don't seem the same to me.

14 hours ago, corbon said:

The rest of the theory is full of similar basic comprehension ineptitude or deliberate misrepresentation. I'll not derail here by breaking it apart step by step, thats been done before in other threads.

Lol ok.

14 hours ago, corbon said:

The only thing that can be said for it is that lemon trees are indeed not native to Braavos. Which is irrelevant in the house of a rich person, well sheltered and protected (the courts and gardens of the mighty are explicitly excepted from the generally treeless nature of the city). 

This is such an old and poorly thought out excuse. An author doesn't continue to point out a discrepancy for no reason. While I suppose it's technically not impossible, it wouldn't make much sense from a story telling perspective to me.

[Melifeather]

20 hours ago, St Daga said:

If you mean the SSM on the rainbow and Renly's color guard, then I seen it. It was posted a couple of times. But it is still unclear to me what the intent might be in the choices. In that SSM, GRRM specifically states that a rainbow is seven colors, yet in his own "rainbow" for Renly, he uses only six colors, and uses the color of purple instead of either indigo or violet. Whether the details don't matter, it is different. Which then leads me to question if the rainbow associated with the Faith of the Seven has seven separate colors or only six, with possibly one being represented by clear or dark/white or black, as you also mentioned above. But when GRRM talks of seven standard colors but then only uses six, while at the same time denying that Renly's rainbow color choice as anything to symbolize Renly's sexuality, it seems a bit unclear to me. I guess that is like most things with his story, the finer attention you put to detail, the more the image seems to blur, when it should do the opposite. 

You are correct. It is an SSM which appears to be paraphrased: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/To_Be_Continued_Chicago_IL_May_6_8/

Quote

The Rainbow Guard isn't meant to symbolize Renly's sexuality. It was more of a culmination of several unrelated things, such as the fact that he'd already used white for the Kingsguard and black for the Night's Watch. A rainbow is seven colors combined together in one object - he compared it to a shamrock being a Irish Catholic symbol of the Holy Trinity, three parts which make up one thing. Plus it has seven colors and is tied to the Seven, plus worshipers of the Seven use prism rainbows in their temples.

 

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

lemons come from Dorne.

There are also lemons in Meereen with the point being that the climate must be warm and Braavos isn't notably warm enough. That being said, is it possible to grow a lemon tree in a garden? I was thinking of Illyrio's garden in Pentos which is also warmer, but it makes me wonder about the Gardens of Gelenei - one of the temples in Braavos. (below is a quote about lemon trees being in Meereen)

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII

Afterward her lord husband led his guests onto the lower terrace, so the visitors from the Yellow City might behold Meereen by night. Wine cups in hand, the Yunkai'i wandered the garden in small groups, beneath lemon trees and night-blooming flowers, and Dany found herself face-to-face with Brown Ben Plumm.

 

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

There is never a mention of Dany going back to Braavos.

You've already cited the passages, but I think it bares repeating that Daenerys is associated with Braavos and that Willem Darry brought her there as well as the pact that was signed between Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell on Braavos:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

"May we know what it says, Your Grace?" asked Ser Barristan.

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen."

 

The Sealord of Braavos was a witness? I wonder if that little detail will ever come up with Arya?

19 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am not trying to intend any conflict, I am just curious and trying to clarify if there is possibly quite different meaning or intention in some of GRRM's choices when it comes to this rainbow of colors. Such as he tells us a rainbow is seven colors, yet then clearly defines Renly's color guard with six specific colors. Maybe that blurred line by GRRM is as good an explanation that we will ever get from GRRM that the amount of colors, or their separate names, really do not matter to the overall image he is presenting. 

I agree that GRRM is a man of details and that it is weird that he gave six of Renly's guard a specific color, but didn't note any color for Loras. While it isn't spelled out specifically for us, I do think its intentional that Loras's color is ambiguous just as his sexuality. He's male yet he's gay - would that imply that he's neither male nor female like the Stranger? 

 

 

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I agree.   Dany's memories are early childhood memories, fragmented and fading and the story she tells around them are unreliable.  Viserys is also an unreliable narrator and his tales of the usurper chasing them are untrue.  This is more like projection and perhaps tales that have been told to him by his various hosts. Dany says that the servants stole all their money and valuables and contradicts that later when she says their money ran out and they had to sell their mother's crown.   So how reliable is her assertion that the house with the red door is in Braavos?  And why was she told this story?  Was it to hide the true location?

I would suggest that both Viserys and Doran/Oberyn have reason to lie about who she is. 

Quote

Of her early memories we have:

- visual memory of the big house with the red door and lemon tree outside her room (animal carvings on the roof beams)

- olfactory memory of perfumes and scented oils

- tactile memory of warm arms to hold her and soft hands

- a memory of a man whom she thinks is Willem Derry

- and I would add that some of her early memories show up in her dragon dreams.  

The idea that Oberyn Martell took her back to Dorne with him after he signed the contact with the Sealord of Braavos is interesting.  I would have to ask why Dany wasn't mentioned in the contract and how she would later be collected by Viserys.  It seems to me that she wasn't named in the contract because Viserys and Dany were split up and hidden in different locations.

If Dany were the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then her very existence is an insult to Elia Martell.

I don't think she was named because Doran didn't want to marry her into his family, but I also don't think Doran is the type to kill an innocent child.

Viserys meanwhile would have an interest in Dany being his little sister and not his older brother's daughter, so his claim would clearly come first.

Illyrio tells Tyrion that he never expected Dany to return from being married to Drogo in exchange for an army. 

Quote

My choice of location for Dany is Lys, because she can be hidden in plain sight and her Targaryen lineage wouldn't stand out in the population. Lys' principle industry is the making of perfumes and scented oils.  Although lemons are not mentioned specifically, they also grow fruit trees and the climate is conducive for growing and exporting lemons.

This is certainly possible, although again, I think the association of the Red Door, home, and Westeros is too strong for me to ignore. Not to mention the Lemon-Dorne connection.

Quote

I'm not sure who the old bear could be.  A master of arms training doesn't have soft hands. Warm arms to hold you and soft hands sounds like a woman, possibly an early memory of her mother or nursemaid.  So potentially, Willem Derry is who he appears to be.

It's possible, and there is always the oddity that Ned didn't bring home the bones of his fallen comrades, like William Dustin to consider. Though Dany describing him as a great grey bear, and grey is associated with Maesters. Wlays Flowers was probably Walgraves son, and Walgrave also has the gauntlet of a Price in his lockbox, while Prince Oberyn spent some time studying at the Citadel. Walys was likely related to not just Lord Hightower and Archmaester Walgrave, but to Gerold Hightower, who died at the Tower of Joy. Could the great grey bear be related to the White Bull? I think it's probable.

Dany being raised by a Maester might explain her fluency in High Valyrian as well.

Quote

Martin has said that the red door is important.  Why is an ordinary house important?  I'm thinking that the house is not ordinary and the red door, like the black gate is a doorway to the gods and the realm of magic and sorcery. 

This leads me to think that she was housed in a temple complex belonging to the Red R'hllorists and potentially she was exposed the dragon god they use and worship at an early age.  Those memories aren't awakened until she reaches puberty.  Sallador Saan tells Davos that there is a great red temple in Lys and they are always burning things.  I think this is the big house with the red door of Dany's memory. 

Funny you mention Salla. Dany remembers a great green sail when sailing into Braavos, and the only other green sail I've seen in the series belongs to Salla, who's ancestor fought alongside the last Blackfyre in the war of the ninepenny kings.