Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

It's possible, and there is always the oddity that Ned didn't bring home the bones of his fallen comrades, like William Dustin to consider. Though Dany describing him as a great grey bear, and grey is associated with Maesters. Wlays Flowers was probably Walgraves son, and Walgrave also has the gauntlet of a Price in his lockbox, while Prince Oberyn spent some time studying at the Citadel. Walys was likely related to not just Lord Hightower and Archmaester Walgrave, but to Gerold Hightower, who died at the Tower of Joy. Could the great grey bear be related to the White Bull? I think it's probable.

Sorry if it seems I'm nitpicking, but I've read the above through three times and I still cannot follow your train of thought. What does Ned or William Dustin have to do with Willem Darry? And for that matter, what evidence is there to connect Walys Flowers, aka Maester Walys to Oberyn Martell? I'm not even sure what kind of connection you're trying to make. Yes there's a rumor that he was the bastard son of an archmaester and a Hightower girl, but what does all this have to do with discrediting Willem Darry's identity as the old bear Daenerys remembers?

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

If Dany were the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then her very existence is an insult to Elia Martell.

On that score, I think she is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashera Dayne and Danaerys is the Dane Heiress.  I think her resemblance to Ashera in her features rather than hair and eye color is clear from Selmy's description of Dany and his recollection of Ashera.  

The vision of Rhaegar in the HoU where he looks at someone standing in the doorway and says there must be one more (child) isn't Dany but perhaps someone she resembles.  Ashera is one of Elia's ladies in waiting and I would expect her to be attending Elia at that time.  She and Elia share the  same culture and sexual mores.  I doubt Elia would object to Ashera as a kind of sister-wife if they are invested in Rhaegar's purpose.   I also think that time was not wasted in producing the third child, and Dany was born nine months after Aegon's birth at Dragonstone.

This might account for discrepancies in the storm season.  I think she is the PWIP.  As Aemon says, the proof is that she has hatched dragon eggs which seems to have been the purpose behind the Summerhall tragedy.  So, I will go with the part of the prophecy that she was born of salt and smoke and reborn amidst salt tears and smoke.  I'd make that Dragonstone rather than Dorne.  Cressen does talk about the gargoyles, manticores, sphinxes but it doesn't mean that none of them were torn down by the storm.  He says they are everywhere. 

So potentially, when men stole in to remove Viserys and his sister;  they took Dany as the only female infant if both Elia, and her child did not survive which is often the case when a mother dies in childbirth.

As for Walys Flowers, that is a mystery.  Ned is about to say something more when he tells Robert that Lyanna liked ... flowers.  He may have been thinking of him at that point.  I'm thinking that if Lyanna was set upon, he may have been killed.

I doubt very much that she was ever at the tower of joy.  Ned returns with her bones and there was nobody left the ToJ after the fight to prepare the body.  So she must have died somewhere else.  My sense of it is that when she disappeared somewhere around Harrenhall, then she was hidden on the Quiet Isle where she gave birth to Jon.   Walys may have been with her and instructed by Ned to take Jon to Ashera Dayne.  I think she was also keeping Aegon there as well and Ned may have arranged for her to disappear and take Aegon across the Narrow Sea.    

 

[Melifeather]

Daenerys has the classical Valyrian looks of violet eyes and pale silver-gold hair. Ashara had violet eyes, but her hair was dark. Genetically speaking, in humans brown hair is dominant over blond. GRRM even included that lesson when Ned was investigating Robert's bastards. A brunette mother can deliver a blond-headed child, but only if she carries a blond allelel herself, meaning that Ashara would have to have a blond parent. We don't know anything about Ashara's parents, but the Daynes are considered "Stony" Dornish with paler skin than the Salty or Sandy Dornish with some even described as having freckles. Edric Dayne is described as having pale blond hair, but that's a far cry from the silver-gold of the Targaryens. Silver-gold just doesn't materialize from a brunette mother unless somewhere in her ancestry lies a Targaryen.

[Matthew.]

On 9/17/2020 at 3:16 PM, Black Crow said:

Don't want to derail this thread, but my news feed is reporting on a new book by a guy from Entertainment Weekly, offering an oral history of the mummers version. Ordinarily we steer clear of the mummers, but GRRM is quoted saying that the chief mummers proposed to cut out Rickon Stark on the grounds that he doesn't appear to do anything... GRRM, however, flatly refused:

"The biggest thing was Dan and David called me up and had the idea of eliminating Rickon, the youngest of the Stark children, because he didn't do much in the first book. I said I had important plans for him, so they kept him."  [my emphasis]

I apologize for the brief derail bump, but a fair warning to any spoiler adverse Heretics: excerpts from this book's interviews with GRRM are beginning to appear here and there, and you may want avoid them if you're trying to totally avoid any information about plot points in tWoW. It's not anything "new," per se, but there are certain confirmations (or denials) that might undercut your enjoyment of tWoW if you've been avoiding the show.

[Mourning Star]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Sorry if it seems I'm nitpicking, but I've read the above through three times and I still cannot follow your train of thought. What does Ned or William Dustin have to do with Willem Darry? And for that matter, what evidence is there to connect Walys Flowers, aka Maester Walys to Oberyn Martell? I'm not even sure what kind of connection you're trying to make. Yes there's a rumor that he was the bastard son of an archmaester and a Hightower girl, but what does all this have to do with discrediting Willem Darry's identity as the old bear Daenerys remembers?

Apologies, the William Dustin comment was simply presenting another option for who the protector in Dany's memory is (although frankly he isn't my preference, due to age if nothing else), and obviously this is all speculation.

Let me try to explain better why I like Walys Flowers for Dany's great grey bear.

Quote

The maester was a small grey man. His eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much. His hair was grey, what little the years had left him. His robe was grey wool, trimmed with white fur, the Stark colors.

This is how Luwin is described in Game of Thrones.

He is also likened to animals:

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"We have no steward," Maester Luwin reminded her. Like a little grey rat, she thought, he would not let go. "Poole went south to establish Lord Eddard's household at King's Landing."

...

Maester Luwin took the paper from the dwarf's hand, curious as a small grey squirrel. 

Maester's in general are referred to as "grey".

We learn of Walys from Lady Dustin who makes this accusation:

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"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—"

It seems like Walys was young when he was sent to Winterfell... but we really don't know much about him. 

However, do to what we learned from Pate, it's suspected that Walgrave was his father:

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Inside, Pate had found a bag of silver stags, a lock of yellow hair tied up in a ribbon, a painted miniature of a woman who resembled Walgrave (even to her mustache), and a knight's gauntlet made of lobstered steel. The gauntlet had belonged to a prince, Walgrave claimed, though he could no longer seem to recall which one. When Pate shook it, the key fell out onto the floor.

So first the hair, which could well by from Walys's Hightower mother. We get this description of Lynesse Hightower:

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 "She had hair like spun gold, that Lynesse. Skin like cream. But her soft hands were never made for axes."

Notice the reference to soft hands that didn't wield weapons... and that Dany's protector had soft hands, while Willem Darry was a master at arms.

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"The first time I beheld her, I thought she was a goddess come to earth, the Maid herself made flesh. Her birth was far above my own. She was the youngest daughter of Lord Leyton Hightower of Oldtown. The White Bull who commanded your father's Kingsguard was her great-uncle. The Hightowers are an ancient family, very rich and very proud."
"And loyal," Dany said. "I remember, Viserys said the Hightowers were among those who stayed true to my father."

The White Bull, fierce old Gerold Hightower, would then be related to our Walys Flowers as well, and Gerold was one of the few men Jaime considered stronger than himself, listed along sides other huge men like the Cleganes, Greatjon Umber, and Robert Baratheon.

So I suspect Dany's great grey bear was Walys Flowers.

The painted miniature is interesting, possibly Walgraves mother, sister or daughter, given the similarity in looks. We could speculate if this indicates his relation to Selyse Florent, or even from Ib like Assadora, but it's hard to try and draw too much from a hairy upper lip.

But the key is in the gauntlet of lobstered steel, said to be owned by a Prince.

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 He knew the man only by reputation, to be sure . . . but the reputation was fearsome. When he was no more than sixteen, Prince Oberyn had been found abed with the paramour of old Lord Yronwood, a huge man of fierce repute and short temper. A duel ensued, though in view of the prince's youth and high birth, it was only to first blood. Both men took cuts, and honor was satisfied. Yet Prince Oberyn soon recovered, while Lord Yronwood's wounds festered and killed him. Afterward men whispered that Oberyn had fought with a poisoned sword, and ever thereafter friends and foes alike called him the Red Viper.
That was many years ago, to be sure. The boy of sixteen was a man past forty now, and his legend had grown a deal darker. He had traveled in the Free Cities, learning the poisoner's trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. He had studied at the Citadel, going so far as to forge six links of a maester's chain before he grew bored. He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company. His tourneys, his battles, his duels, his horses, his carnality . . . it was said that he bedded men and women both, and had begotten bastard girls all over Dorne. The sand snakes, men called his daughters. So far as Tyrion had heard, Prince Oberyn had never fathered a son.

Oberyn forged six links of his Maester's chain before going to Essos, and I'm not sure there is a mention of any other princes even being in Oldtown.

His daughter is almost certainly there now disguised as Alleras, the Sphinx. If I am really going out on a limb, I'd say that it's even possible that Obarra, with her close set eyes (another Florent feature, although shared by plenty of others) was the child of Oberyn and Walgrave's woman from the miniature.

While we don't know where he was during Robert's Rebelion, but Oberyn danced with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhell. After Elia's death he tried to raise Dorne in rebelion but didn't, and about a year later Jon Arryn visits Dorne and makes the peace official. We don't know the full extent of Doran and Oberyn's plotting yet, but I have to believe there was more going on than we were led to believe, and I think Dany's heritage might be a part of that.

Obviously none of this is hard evidence, and I seem to be rambling so I will stop here for now.

[Mourning Star]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

On that score, I think she is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashera Dayne and Danaerys is the Dane Heiress.  I think her resemblance to Ashera in her features rather than hair and eye color is clear from Selmy's description of Dany and his recollection of Ashera.  

I can understand the idea, but I just see too much of Lyanna in Dany... from the natural horsemanship to the flowers, to the song of ice and fire. 

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The vision of Rhaegar in the HoU where he looks at someone standing in the doorway and says there must be one more (child) isn't Dany but perhaps someone she resembles.  Ashera is one of Elia's ladies in waiting and I would expect her to be attending Elia at that time.  She and Elia share the  same culture and sexual mores.  I doubt Elia would object to Ashera as a kind of sister-wife if they are invested in Rhaegar's purpose.   I also think that time was not wasted in producing the third child, and Dany was born nine months after Aegon's birth at Dragonstone.

I'm not sure I buy this, but I do suppose it's possible.

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This might account for discrepancies in the storm season.  I think she is the PWIP.  As Aemon says, the proof is that she has hatched dragon eggs which seems to have been the purpose behind the Summerhall tragedy.  So, I will go with the part of the prophecy that she was born of salt and smoke and reborn amidst salt tears and smoke.  I'd make that Dragonstone rather than Dorne.  Cressen does talk about the gargoyles, manticores, sphinxes but it doesn't mean that none of them were torn down by the storm.  He says they are everywhere. 

But Valyrian structure last for impossibly long times... and Cressan seems to think they both long predated him and would long outlast him, there is no mention of missing gargoyles. And I'm not suggesting there would literally be no erosion, but the gargoyles are part of the same fused stone as the walls, they aren't separate pieces to be torn off by the wind and rain.

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The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite.

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As for Walys Flowers, that is a mystery.  Ned is about to say something more when he tells Robert that Lyanna liked ... flowers.  He may have been thinking of him at that point.  I'm thinking that if Lyanna was set upon, he may have been killed.

Haha that's a nice little pun if true. My assumption is that he was at the Tower of Joy, after all it would seem kind of silly not to have a Maester there for a woman giving birth.

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I doubt very much that she was ever at the tower of joy.  Ned returns with her bones and there was nobody left the ToJ after the fight to prepare the body. 

I'm not sure I agree with this, while none of the other combatants lived to ride away (besides Ned and Howland), I don't see any reason to think there was literally nobody else there.

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So she must have died somewhere else.  My sense of it is that when she disappeared somewhere around Harrenhall, then she was hidden on the Quiet Isle where she gave birth to Jon.   Walys may have been with her and instructed by Ned to take Jon to Ashera Dayne.  I think she was also keeping Aegon there as well and Ned may have arranged for her to disappear and take Aegon across the Narrow Sea.    

Interesting, but I'm not sure I see this as the most likely option. IMO Lyanna probably got pregnant when Rhaegar unmasked her as the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhall and she disappeared a few months later when she could no longer hide her pregnancy. This also explains why Walys would have traveled with her.

In order for the Kingsguard to stay at the Tower of Joy, and still be so confident that was where their oath demanded them, a male heir to Rhaegar would already have to have been born (Jon, conceived at Harrenhall) for them to remain after word of the Sack of King's Landing reached them, while there seems to have been enough time for Lyanna to have gotten pregnant again, and died giving birth to Dany.

I would also add that I think the story of Danny Flint, a girl pretending to be a boy, has an odd sort of parallel to the prince who was promised being gender neutral (gender transient? now one now the other). I think it would be great to find out that Dany's real name is Dany and not Daenerys, a norther name given by her mother (who's grandmother was a flint).

[corbon]

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Well at least you agree here! haha

Mmmmmmmm..... I don't think so, although technically grass and bare feet aren't in the same sentence, the repeated associations of the red door to home and home to grass, flowers and mountains remains. I should have phrased it differently.

Your memory appears to be off.

Please show associations of the red door with grass, flowers or mountains.

There is one, and only one, association with grass, discussed below. 
There are zero associations of the red door with flowers or mountains.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

On the smell one I think you are just off base.

Is your suggestion here that there was no house with the red door?

Certainly not.

But the claim was (and I don't blame you personally, you indicated that you were merely repeating other's thoughts) was that Dany's memories didn't fit Braavos. Then cited not a memory, but an allegorical vision that didn't even originate from her.
Thats either incompetent, or dishonest. Not by you, but by the originators of these ideas. It is one of many instances of the same sort of fake 'support' for the idea.
I don't object to the idea as an idea, just the abuse of language and logic to generate fake support lines for it.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

That a little girl didn't run towards it?

In her vision, a little girl did run toward a red door. Barefoot even. But its not a memory. Its a vision given to her by the Undying ones.

And given its context - a string of visions which include things that haven't been, maybe never will, maybe never were, and many that are clearly allegorical for example the dragon bursting from MMD's brow, or the blue flower in a wall of ice), one can't actually claim this vision as being certainly of a real event in any case. Nor is there any grass in it. The vision could fit perfectly fine in a Braavosi summer. It just doesn't need to.

We assume its Dany, because she was a little girl and the red door is hugely symbolic for her in particular.
But it fits perfectly as an allegory - she remains the lost (barefoot) little girl running towards 'home' (the red door ideal) without ever actually finding it (yet). Thats (still) the story of her life. Thats what the Undying Ones are showing her.
Its simply a lie to call this a memory of hers that doesn't fit Braavos.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I'll give you that I shouldn't have said bare feet on grass, rather bare feet... and grass...

The grass reference (the only one) you used is from a whole different experience and thought (different book even), her bad dreams while recovering from the MMD induced miscarriage.
The red door features in those dreams through multiple locations, but always distant - a long hall with high stone arches (bare feet leaving bloody footprints on the stone), on the dothraki plain making love to Drogo, then talking to Jorah, then being abused by Viserys, then picturing her grown son Rheago, then running past the ghostly kings with gemstone eyes, then flying free as a dragon all the way across the Dothraki sea as she feels close to it and finally reaching it in a place with green fields and great stone houses (clearly Westeros - her metaphorical home).

Thats got nothing to do with the real location of the actual red door. The red door in this dream is featured in multiple locations and clearly represents an idea, not a place. And the final place she 'reaches' the idea, home, clearly references a Westerosi ideal - grass fields and great stone houses, her final representation of 'home' - which is not where the real red door was.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

You went a wildly different direction here, I was talking about flowers,

Well, you used the term sweet. And thats the only place it is used in connection with the red door (an scent or smell).

Flowers? Not relevant to the red door any time.
Perfumes, yes (scented oils in fact). Flowers no.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

but if you want to compare the sick old men that works too... look at how Aemon's illness is described, wildly different than "Darry's". Braavos is cold, not sickly sweet.

Aemon was dying and poor, during Autumn - they couldn't afford expensive wood to heat his room so it was cold and that affects how his dying is perceived.
Darry was sick and wealthy - at least living in a rich house with servants and exotic plants. Any any season, we don't know. So of course the circumstances are different, very different.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I was referring to the smell of the city, not the dying old men.

Dany does not describe any outdoor memories from Braavos.  

Dany's memories inside a large and wealthy house through any or all seasons to Arya's experiences living poor, largely outdoors, in autumn, are apples and oranges. Of course they don't match up.

 

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

These just don't seem the same to me.

And they shouldn't be.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

This is such an old and poorly thought out excuse. An author doesn't continue to point out a discrepancy for no reason. While I suppose it's technically not impossible, it wouldn't make much sense from a story telling perspective to me.

Thats such an old and poorly thought out counter.

Aside for the fact that lemons comes from certain areas is simply natural worldbuilding, and not every reference to that idea (and there aren't as many as are touted) is a 'clue' to solve one very minor not-quite-oddity, we have a solution. The Pact, signed by Dorne (lemon tree) and Darry and witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos places Darry and Dany in Braavos.
A Pact we didn't know about when the lemon tree was revealed.

[lehutin]

I find that discussing R+L=D becomes much simpler through playing Devil's Advocate. Personally I think the theory is terrible and completely agree with @corbon that it's full of "basic comprehension ineptitude or deliberate misrepresentation." But let's set that aside and suppose it's true. Suppose Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

 

How does this theory work? Help me fill in the blanks:

1. Ned Stark and Howland Reed find a dying Lyanna at the Tower of Joy with a newborn baby daughter, the Dany we know.
2. ???
3. Dany is in Essos as Viserys's "sister."

I don't need a daily itinerary down to the hour. I'm just asking for a reasonable attempt to fill in the ??? (e.g. "she got on a boat lol" isn't a reasonable attempt).

[Melifeather]

17 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Apologies, the William Dustin comment was simply presenting another option for who the protector in Dany's memory is (although frankly he isn't my preference, due to age if nothing else), and obviously this is all speculation.

Let me try to explain better why I like Walys Flowers for Dany's great grey bear.

This is how Luwin is described in Game of Thrones.

He is also likened to animals:

Maester's in general are referred to as "grey".

We learn of Walys from Lady Dustin who makes this accusation:

It seems like Walys was young when he was sent to Winterfell... but we really don't know much about him. 

However, do to what we learned from Pate, it's suspected that Walgrave was his father:

So first the hair, which could well by from Walys's Hightower mother. We get this description of Lynesse Hightower:

Notice the reference to soft hands that didn't wield weapons... and that Dany's protector had soft hands, while Willem Darry was a master at arms.

The White Bull, fierce old Gerold Hightower, would then be related to our Walys Flowers as well, and Gerold was one of the few men Jaime considered stronger than himself, listed along sides other huge men like the Cleganes, Greatjon Umber, and Robert Baratheon.

So I suspect Dany's great grey bear was Walys Flowers.

The painted miniature is interesting, possibly Walgraves mother, sister or daughter, given the similarity in looks. We could speculate if this indicates his relation to Selyse Florent, or even from Ib like Assadora, but it's hard to try and draw too much from a hairy upper lip.

But the key is in the gauntlet of lobstered steel, said to be owned by a Prince.

Oberyn forged six links of his Maester's chain before going to Essos, and I'm not sure there is a mention of any other princes even being in Oldtown.

His daughter is almost certainly there now disguised as Alleras, the Sphinx. If I am really going out on a limb, I'd say that it's even possible that Obarra, with her close set eyes (another Florent feature, although shared by plenty of others) was the child of Oberyn and Walgrave's woman from the miniature.

While we don't know where he was during Robert's Rebelion, but Oberyn danced with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhell. After Elia's death he tried to raise Dorne in rebelion but didn't, and about a year later Jon Arryn visits Dorne and makes the peace official. We don't know the full extent of Doran and Oberyn's plotting yet, but I have to believe there was more going on than we were led to believe, and I think Dany's heritage might be a part of that.

Obviously none of this is hard evidence, and I seem to be rambling so I will stop here for now.

Pretend you are the author...what is the payoff for having the old bear be anyone other than Willem Darry? 

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, lehutin said:

I find that discussing R+L=D becomes much simpler through playing Devil's Advocate. Personally I think the theory is terrible and completely agree with @corbon that it's full of "basic comprehension ineptitude or deliberate misrepresentation." But let's set that aside and suppose it's true. Suppose Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

 

How does this theory work? Help me fill in the blanks:

1. Ned Stark and Howland Reed find a dying Lyanna at the Tower of Joy with a newborn baby daughter, the Dany we know.
2. ???
3. Dany is in Essos as Viserys's "sister."

I don't need a daily itinerary down to the hour. I'm just asking for a reasonable attempt to fill in the ??? (e.g. "she got on a boat lol" isn't a reasonable attempt).

1. Ned and Howland find Dany

2. We listen to Ned's own explanation of what he would do with a child who's parentage would incur Robert's wrath, exile. This is what Cersei refers to as a "bitter cup", and the red door in the HotU matches up with the "cup of ice" reference when she asks for the rooms to be explained. Obviously Nedcan't take purple eyed metallic haired Dany home with him, so she is left in the care of her grey bear in Dorne.

3. Rather than rising in rebellion (and crowning Dany a la Myrcella), She is taken to Braavos when Oberyn comes to meet Willem Darry. The Martells might not be the type to kill children, but they'd probably be insulted that Rhaegar had a child with someone other than Elia. The Sealord would be a reasonable guardian while the Martells raised support for a war.

4. Varys and Illyrio find out. The Sealord of Braavos, Darry, and his loyal men all disappear (are killed) and Viserys and Dany are shipped around from court to court in Essos while Illyrio plots to marry Dany off to a barbarian so he can coopt the army and use it to install Aegon on the throne.

But let's be honest, the real reason to buy any of this is the literary details in Dany's own story. If she isn't the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna:

1. Why is she a natural rider described like a centaur with her Stark colored horse when Lyanna was a natural rider?

2. Why does she see a giant wolf and man aflame in MMD's tent?

3. Why is the song of ice and fire for the prince who was promised and the return of dragons?

4. Why does she have a straight up Luke/Vader seeing herself in Rhaegar's helmet moment? ("there is another!")

5. Why is she told to remember who she is?

etc. etc.

[lehutin]

19 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

1. Ned and Howland find Dany

2. We listen to Ned's own explanation of what he would do with a child who's parentage would incur Robert's wrath, exile. This is what Cersei refers to as a "bitter cup", and the red door in the HotU matches up with the "cup of ice" reference when she asks for the rooms to be explained. Obviously Nedcan't take purple eyed metallic haired Dany home with him, so she is left in the care of her grey bear in Dorne.

3. Rather than rising in rebellion (and crowning Dany a la Myrcella), She is taken to Braavos when Oberyn comes to meet Willem Darry. The Martells might not be the type to kill children, but they'd probably be insulted that Rhaegar had a child with someone other than Elia. The Sealord would be a reasonable guardian while the Martells raised support for a war.

4. Varys and Illyrio find out. The Sealord of Braavos, Darry, and his loyal men all disappear (are killed) and Viserys and Dany are shipped around from court to court in Essos while Illyrio plots to marry Dany off to a barbarian so he can coopt the army and use it to install Aegon on the throne.

Why leave Dany in the care of a "grey bear" (who?) in Dorne, on the other side of Westeros...

 

...when Ned can leave Dany in the care of Howland Reed in the North; the same side of Westeros as Winterfell; in a castle that moves; with no maester, master-at-arms, or knights? This seems to be a much simpler, much safer solution to protecting Ned's niece than leaving her in the opposite side of the continent, no?

[Mourning Star]

39 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Pretend you are the author...what is the payoff for having the old bear be anyone other than Willem Darry? 

It explains the visions in the HotU, the shadows in MMDs tent, the prince who was promised prophecy, the return of dragons, and the title of the series.

More importantly it is the crux of Dany's entire story arc.

She goes from a tool, who doesn't even know her own identity, who was abused, lied to and sold off by the only person she considered family to a Queen in possession of superweapons who can define her own future and who she is as a person. She isn't defined by some silly coin toss of madness or greatness.

What was the payoff for pretending to kill Bran and Rickon? Or Mance? Or Davos?

What is the payoff for R+L=J? 

What is the payoff for any twist?

It's good story telling.

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Why leave Dany in the care of a "grey bear" (who?) in Dorne, on the other side of Westeros...

 

...when Ned can leave Dany in the care of Howland Reed in the North; the same side of Westeros as Winterfell; in a castle that moves; with no maester, master-at-arms, or knights? This seems to be a much simpler, much safer solution to protecting Ned's niece than leaving her in the opposite side of the continent, no?

No, the entire point is that they were already there and the Daynes have coloring to match Dany's, people in the North or the Neck do not.

Also, there is safety in splitting them up like luke and leia.

[lehutin]

7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

No, the entire point is that they were already there and the Daynes have coloring to match Dany's, people in the North or the Neck do not.

"They were already there," so what? This is Ned's niece we're talking about here, the newborn daughter of his beloved dead sister. He just leaves her in the opposite side of the continent where he will basically never travel to again?

 

Also, people in the North or the Neck don't look like the Daynes, true. But again, so what? Greywater Watch moves and has no maester, master-at-arms, or knights. So who exactly is left to care about some out-of-place-looking girl? Besides, aren't we forgetting that there's a simple solution to this problem from Sansa's chapters (cough hair dye cough)?

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I apologize for the brief derail bump, but a fair warning to any spoiler adverse Heretics: excerpts from this book's interviews with GRRM are beginning to appear here and there, and you may want avoid them if you're trying to totally avoid any information about plot points in tWoW. It's not anything "new," per se, but there are certain confirmations (or denials) that might undercut your enjoyment of tWoW if you've been avoiding the show.

Thanks Matthew. I'm not spoiler averse and I would like to read them if you have any links you can provide within spoiler quotes.

[Mourning Star]

Just now, lehutin said:

"They were already there," so what? This is Ned's niece we're talking about here, the newborn daughter of his beloved dead sister. He just leaves her in the opposite side of the continent where he will basically never travel to again?

Where he will intentionally probably never interact with her ever, for her safety.

Just now, lehutin said:

Also, people in the North or the Neck don't look like the Daynes, true. But again, so what? Greywater Watch moves and has no maester, master-at-arms, or knights. So who exactly is left to care about some out-of-place-looking girl? Besides, aren't we forgetting that there's a simple solution to this problem from Sansa's chapters (cough hair dye cough)?

Hair dye for eye color? For her entire life? A baby can't dye their own hair, someone will know, and people talk.

Maybe he didn't want to put Howland and his family and people at risk, maybe he thought this was a better option.

Ned had not yet made up with Robert, their last interaction had been over the dead bodies of Rhaegar's children.

But don't take my word for it, listen to Ned:

Quote

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

[lehutin]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Where he will intentionally probably never interact with her ever, for her safety.

Because that's Ned Stark, right? Goes to hell and back to recover his missing beloved sister, and then when he finds out that his beloved sister is dying and has given birth to a baby daughter, he just...dumps his niece somewhere nearby and moves on with his life.

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Hair dye for eye color? For her entire life? A baby can't dye their own hair, someone will know, and people talk.

This is either desperation or extreme disingenuity. Hair dye for hair color, jeez. Dyed whenever necessary. Dyed by one of the Reeds. As I said, and as you don't acknowledge, Greywater Watch is a castle that moves with no maester, no master-at-arms, and no knights. So...who's the "someone" that will know?

10 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Maybe he didn't want to put Howland and his family and people at risk, maybe he thought this was a better option.

The "better option" is to put the Daynes at risk instead of the Reeds? If a family is going to be "at risk" either way, why not choose the family that's sworn to you and is in the same geographical region of Westeros?

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

But don't take my word for it, listen to Ned:

I don't think you get why Ned suggested exile for Cersei and her children. Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were of an age where it was impossible for Ned or anyone else to claim them as their own. Everybody already knew they were (supposed to be) the King and Queen's children. At that point, exile is the only option to protect them.

 

But for a newborn child, like R+L=D at the Tower of Joy, exile is not the only option. You unintentionally show that you recognize this because even in your own attempt to fill in the ??? blanks, you first have Ned entrusting R+L=D in the care of an unknown "grey bear" in Dorne. That's not exile.

 

You only invoke exile after, for whatever unknown reason, the Daynes somehow become involved (why?) and decide to ship R+L=D to Essos. My ultimate point is that every version of R+L=D always requires multiple characters to do stupid things. Whenever there's a choice between a simple and safe solution versus a convoluted and dangerous solution, the characters always, always choose the latter.

 

That should tell you that this is a really crappy theory. 

[Mourning Star]

17 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Because that's Ned Stark, right? Goes to hell and back to recover his missing beloved sister, and then when he finds out that his beloved sister is dying and has given birth to a baby daughter, he just...dumps his niece somewhere nearby and moves on with his life.

His words not mine.... maybe your headcannon doesn't reflect the text as well as you think?

Quote

This is either desperation or extreme disingenuity. Hair dye for hair color, jeez. Dyed whenever necessary. Dyed by one of the Reeds. As I said, and as you don't acknowledge, Greywater Watch is a castle that moves with no maester, no master-at-arms, and no knights. So...who's the "someone" that will know?

Someone always talks.

Quote

The "better option" is to put the Daynes at risk instead of the Reeds? If a family is going to be "at risk" either way, why not choose the family that's sworn to you and is in the same geographical region of Westeros?

Walys Flowers was sworn to him... and that is who I'm suggesting was the protector.

Quote

I don't think you get why Ned suggested exile for Cersei and her children. Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were of an age where it was impossible for Ned or anyone else to claim them as their own. Everybody already knew they were (supposed to be) the King and Queen's children. At that point, exile is the only option to protect them.

Right, to run and hide because their hair and eye color reveals a parentage which will bring down Robert's wrath.

Quote

But for a newborn child, like R+L=D at the Tower of Joy, exile is not the only option. You unintentionally show that you recognize this because even in your own attempt to fill in the ??? blanks, you first have Ned entrusting R+L=D in the care of an unknown "grey bear" in Dorne. That's not exile.

It is hiding, and the grey bear was not unknown if it was the Maester of Winterfell, a Hightower bastard. Hell maybe they just tore down the tower to build a house with a red door. I can't possibly have all the details for you, I'm just trying to explain to you what I think is being indicated by the story.

Quote

You only invoke exile after, for whatever unknown reason, the Daynes somehow become involved (why?) and decide to ship R+L=D to Essos. My ultimate point is that every version of R+L=D always requires multiple characters to do stupid things. Whenever there's a choice between a simple and safe solution versus a convoluted and dangerous solution, the characters always, always choose the latter.

Because this is a clue for the reader, not for Cersei. And be it Dorne, or the Reach, or Essos it's still exile and hiding. As in many other parts of the story, text can have more than one meaning.

Quote

That should tell you that this is a really crappy theory. 

ok thanks for that insight lol

[LynnS]

22 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Daenerys has the classical Valyrian looks of violet eyes and pale silver-gold hair. Ashara had violet eyes, but her hair was dark. Genetically speaking, in humans brown hair is dominant over blond. GRRM even included that lesson when Ned was investigating Robert's bastards. A brunette mother can deliver a blond-headed child, but only if she carries a blond allelel herself, meaning that Ashara would have to have a blond parent. We don't know anything about Ashara's parents, but the Daynes are considered "Stony" Dornish with paler skin than the Salty or Sandy Dornish with some even described as having freckles. Edric Dayne is described as having pale blond hair, but that's a far cry from the silver-gold of the Targaryens. Silver-gold just doesn't materialize from a brunette mother unless somewhere in her ancestry lies a Targaryen.

There is a lot we don't know about House Dayne except for the legacy of the pale sword and that the house is very old.  Dany is described as having the blood of old Valyria by Mopatis, (who is a deep R'hllorist IMO).  Dany's vision of the king's holding a pale sword with gemstone eyes could be the line of her ancestors, just as Jaime sees his ancestors in the wierwood stump dream.  Or Jon's dream of his ancestor's in the crypts.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

 

So is this line of kings and the blood of old Valyria, a part of Dany's genetic inheritance.  Do her abilities come from a recessive gene?

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why is she a natural rider described like a centaur with her Stark colored horse when Lyanna was a natural rider?

Drogo gave her a silver filly/mare. Grey is a color between black and white while silver indicates it had a metallic sheen.

23 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why does she see a giant wolf and man aflame in MMD's tent?

She glimped the shadow of a great wolf and a man wreathed in flames. How is this even connected to her parentage? Mirri said she would summon,

Quote

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

So according to Mirri the great wolf and the man wreathed in flames are old dead powers. 

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why is the song of ice and fire for the prince who was promised and the return of dragons?

IMO the prince that was promised IS a dragon. It's like a recipe. Do this and this and this and you'll be able to hatch dragon eggs.

33 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why does she have a straight up Luke/Vader seeing herself in Rhaegar's helmet moment? ("there is another!")

Helmet moment? Daenerys saw many things in the House of the Undying, but none of them are confirmation that any of it strictly applied to her. She saw four men raping a beautiful woman on a floor, and Robb Stark's body with Grey Wind's head attached. Does this mean that she's got any connection whatsoever to the woman or Robb Stark? 

Part of the Prince that was Promised prophecy includes a three-headed dragon. Aegon the Conqueror had two sister-wives and all three had dragons.  The last dragon died around 150 years after the conquest and the Targaryens have been obsessed with hatching dragon eggs ever since.

Many believe the tragedy at Summerhal was an attempt to hatch dragon eggs. Egg had the requesite "three heads" - his three elder and married children: Duncan, Jaehaerys, and Shaera. The children of Jaehaerys and Shaera (Aerys and Rhaella) were pregnant with Rhaegar just as Daenerys was pregnant when Mirri first began her resurrection ritual for Drogo. Daenerys of course lost Rhaego prior to the funeral pyre that hatched her eggs, while Rhaella's unborn child survived while many others perished. Jorah Mormont carried Daenerys into the tent, while Ser Duncan the Tall carried Rhaella out of the flames.

If it is true that there must be three siblings prior to bringing forth the promised dragon, then Daenerys by necessity must have two siblings, and indeed she does - two brothers named Rhaegar and Viserys which is a reversal of Aegon and his two sisters.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Why is she told to remember who she is?

I have an alternate explanation for Quaithe's insistence that Daenerys "remembers" who she is and it has to do with mummers remembering their parts in a play. I believe history has been repeating itself and playing out like a giant mummer's play except the "acts" or rather "events" are occurring in reverse or jumbled order. I think Quaithe understands what is happening and is trying to override Dany's "part" in an attempt to get her to do what Aegon the Conquerer did rather than the current part she is playing as the mother or "origin" of dragons. This is why she tells her:

Quote

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

The reason why history is repeating itself has to do with how the Children helped the Last Hero defeat the Others. If you're familiar with the Marvel Comic's character Dr Strange you might recall that he used the Eye of Aggamoto to place "time" in a continual loop in order to defeat Dormammu. I think the Children also placed time in a continual loop and every time "Brandon" dies a new one is born and the loop resets.