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Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow


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On 9/6/2020 at 12:48 AM, Melifeather said:

My ramblings may seem like I’m drifting away from the rainbow motif, but they’re not. At least I don’t think so. To me the rainbows and lightning indicate magic. The broken swords indicate being struck by magic and transforming or crossing over to a new life.

:agree:At least about the transition part. Just not sold yet on the need for the transition to be magical. Yet it does seem like the majority that we see DO seem to have a magical link. That said, we also have the example of a tree killed by lightning and currently decaying that is feeding the growth of a new rose bush. 

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Random Stray Thought...

Could the Wall actually have been built to fortify and protect the Black Gate? I mean it looks like part of a really old weirwood tree and there’s new growth in the Nights Fort kitchen. Which is in a really strange shape for a kitchen IIRC. 

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5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I don’t know that I would necessarily say that they are indicative of magic per se, but rather of transition. Some transitions are of magical nature but many others are not. i.e. death. That said clearly 7 v. 9 is a fundamental difference. Seems like the Faith might be ignoring or eliminating something. Or possibly TWO somethings. What I keep coming back to is that seven of the colors are visible to the naked eye, but the ends of the spectrum are not. That makes me wonder which transitions are possible for the old Gods v. The 7. The two things that stands out for me the most are the belief the first men hold of a second life and transitioning into nature. And the idea that in essence the wights are a return from that state. Is there a purgatory on earth that warriors like Ned Stark can be called back from the dead? Seems like there might be plenty of good reasons for the Faith to conceal that. 

Neither white nor black are on the color spectrum so I think we're only looking at six colors plus either black or white. Pure white is an absence of color and black is the absence of light. All other colors are reflections of light. Since black is not reflected then technically its not a color. The seven commonly accepted colors of a rainbow are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet/indigo, and purple, but for the purposes of the Faith of the Seven only six colors are acknowledged: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple. Each color corresponds to a facet of their Faith - Father, Smith, Warrior, Mother, Crone, Maiden, and Stranger - although the only facet that has a color associated with it is the Smith. Jon Snow said one of the wanderers (planets) is sacred to the Smith: the red wanderer. I guess we're to assume the other six planets reflect other colors?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

I propose that the Stranger is associated with black, because it is neither male nor female just as black is neither light nor color. I guess the same might be said about white since it is the absence of color, but my opinion is colored (har!) by stereotypical associations with white and black. White is purity, honor, surrender, good,  and innocence. Black is darkness, evil, power, death, and mystery.

Renly's Rainbow Guard had six colors. Loras, as Lord Commander, didn't have a designated color. He only wore the striped rainbow cloak. I do wonder though if he continued to wear his silver armor with the twining black filigree with the sapphire forget-me-nots? If so, his silver armor might represent "light". The other six guards wore colored enameled armor with their striped rainbow cloaks:

Ser Robar Royce - Blood Red armor

Lord Bryce Caron - Orange armor

Ser Emmon Cuy - Yellow sunflowers armor

Ser Guyard Morrigen - Green armor

Brienne of Tarth - Blue armor

Ser Parmen Crane - Purple Plums armor

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56 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Neither white nor black are on the color spectrum so I think we're only looking at six colors plus either black or white. Pure white is an absence of color and black is the absence of light. All other colors are reflections of light. Since black is not reflected then technically its not a color. The seven commonly accepted colors of a rainbow are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, and purple, but for the purposes of the Faith of the Seven only six colors are acknowledged: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple. Each color corresponds to a facet of their Faith - Father, Smith, Warrior, Mother, Crone, Maiden, and Stranger - although the only facet that has a color associated with it is the Smith. Jon Snow said one of the wanderers (planets) is sacred to the Smith: the red wanderer. I guess we're to assume the other six planets reflect other colors?

I propose that the Stranger is associated with black, because it is neither male nor female just as black is neither light nor color. I guess the same might be said about white since it is the absence of color, but my opinion is colored (har!) by stereotypical associations with white and black. White is purity, honor, surrender, good,  and innocence. Black is darkness, evil, power, death, and mystery.

Renly's Rainbow Guard had six colors. Loras, as Lord Commander, didn't have a designated color. He only wore the striped rainbow cloak. I do wonder though if he continued to wear his silver armor with the twining black filigree with the sapphire forget-me-nots? If so, his silver armor might represent "light". The other six guards wore colored enameled armor with their striped rainbow cloaks:

Ser Robar Royce - Blood Red armor

Lord Bryce Caron - Orange armor

Ser Emmon Cuy - Yellow sunflowers armor

Ser Guyard Morrigen - Green armor

Brienne of Tarth - Blue armor

Ser Parmen Crane - Purple Plums armor

And maybe the moon that cracked was purple and out came the magic which cannot be seen directly, only in its creations, like dragons.

Or, Prince :P

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1. I don’t think we get to discount one of the colors of the rainbow just because.

2. I’m not sure that there’s any specific way to match colors to the specific faces of the gods.

3. I would place the stranger into the realm of the living. At the very least,  I associate it more with a dying person as opposed to a dead one. Praying to the Stranger is to PREVENT death isn’t it? i.e. Stannis in the role of the stranger in Kings Landing where he brings death and destruction.

4. Loras Tyrell. Do they mention his armor at the Melee when Catelyn arrives? 

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30 minutes ago, alienarea said:

And maybe the moon that cracked was purple and out came the magic which cannot be seen directly, only in its creations, like dragons.

Or, Prince :P

You know I was brushing this off as sarcasm until I remembered that Dany, and Valyrians in general, do, in fact, have Violet eyes. 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Neither white nor black are on the color spectrum so I think we're only looking at six colors plus either black or white. Pure white is an absence of color and black is the absence of light. All other colors are reflections of light. Since black is not reflected then technically its not a color. The seven commonly accepted colors of a rainbow are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, and purple, but for the purposes of the Faith of the Seven only six colors are acknowledged: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple. Each color corresponds to a facet of their Faith - Father, Smith, Warrior, Mother, Crone, Maiden, and Stranger - although the only facet that has a color associated with it is the Smith. Jon Snow said one of the wanderers (planets) is sacred to the Smith: the red wanderer. I guess we're to assume the other six planets reflect other colors?

The white light that is refracted by the crystal is a total of all light.  When the light is bent; it breaks into different wavelengths but it's source is white light.  I'm not sure what the colors represent except that the Faith worship different aspect of the light...  which brings to mind the Lord of Light.  Maiden, Mother, Crone represents the stages of life for women and I think Smith, Father, Warrior represents the same stages or occupations for men.  The Stranger representing death that comes for everyone at the end of life.

What is the purpose of this religion?  It seems to guide folk through the stages of life.  As far as the rainbow guard is concerned; they are all knight or warriors regardless of the color of their armor.   They are all bound by the same code and oath to to god when they anointed by the high septon. 

The Crone is interesting because she is depicted as carrying a lantern to light the way.   

It's also curious that the High Sparrow doesn't wear the crystal crown of his office or call himself the high septon.. 

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41 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

1. I don’t think we get to discount one of the colors of the rainbow just because.

It’s not me that’s discounting a color. The book is. Renly never designated a violet/indigo knight and his Rainbow Guard is based on the Faith of the Seven, therefore the Faith doesn’t recognize violet/indigo either. Loras didn’t take a color so he either represents pure white light or black, and as such he represents the Stranger.

 

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38 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Praying to the Stranger is to PREVENT death isn’t it? i.e. Stannis in the role of the stranger in Kings Landing where he brings death and destruction.

No. The Stranger represents death and the unknown. Very few pray to the Stranger unless you were in pain with no hope of recovery. Then you would pray for death.

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7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

No. The Stranger represents death and the unknown. Very few pray to the Stranger unless you were in pain with no hope of recovery. Then you would pray for death.

I wonder how Sansa might feel about that as I’m pretty sure she’s the one that stated that Stannis = Stranger when she went to the sept before the BotBW. Catelyn also prays to all seven faces for safety prior to the scheduled Baratheonbowl. I read the stranger as being more similar to the Grim Reaper. 

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7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

It’s not me that’s discounting a color. The book is. Renly never designated a violet/indigo knight and his Rainbow Guard is based on the Faith of the Seven, therefore the Faith doesn’t recognize violet/indigo either. Loras didn’t take a color so he either represents pure white light or black, and as such he represents the Stranger.

Yeah. I’m pretty sure that the Faith of the Seven doesn’t change its tenets based upon Renley’s choice of protectors and their assigned colors. Nor do I believe that Loras would represent anything based on a missing description of his armor. 

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

The white light that is refracted by the crystal is a total of all light.  When the light is bent; it breaks into different wavelengths but it's source is white light.  I'm not sure what the colors represent except that the Faith worship different aspect of the light...  which brings to mind the Lord of Light.  Maiden, Mother, Crone represents the stages of life for women and I think Smith, Father, Warrior represents the same stages or occupations for men.  The Stranger representing death that comes for everyone at the end of life.

What is the purpose of this religion?  It seems to guide folk through the stages of life.  As far as the rainbow guard is concerned; they are all knight or warriors regardless of the color of their armor.   They are all bound by the same code and oath to to god when they anointed by the high septon. 

The Crone is interesting because she is depicted as carrying a lantern to light the way.   

It's also curious that the High Sparrow doesn't wear the crystal crown of his office or call himself the high septon.. 

Agree with your take on it. Was thinking the same on both the rainbow guard and the Faith. Good catches on the other two, but not sparking any ideas? I would say with the High Sparrow that it’s more suggestive of his humility than anything else, but am open to suggestions. With the Crone I always took it as illuminating the path in life with knowledge and the lantern being symbolic. And what is life if not another series of transitions? 

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From an SSM within the Citadel:

Quote

The Rainbow Guard isn't meant to symbolize Renly's sexuality. It was more of a culmination of several unrelated things, such as the fact that he'd already used white for the Kingsguard and black for the Night's Watch. A rainbow is seven colors combined together in one object - he compared it to a shamrock being a Irish Catholic symbol of the Holy Trinity, three parts which make up one thing. Plus it has seven colors and is tied to the Seven, plus worshipers of the Seven use prism rainbows in their temples.

The "seven in one" aspect is important to the Faith. Their seven-sided prisms looks colorless until light is reflected. Still, Renly's Rainbow Guard had seven men, but only six had designated colors. Loras didn't have a color assigned to him. If he had he'd be counted as an equal to the other six, but since he was the Lord Commander he had to be without a color therefore he must have represented "light". Of the seven facets only the Crone is associated with carrying a light, which may suggest that the Stranger does have a color. 

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The "seven in one" aspect is important to the Faith. Their seven-sided prisms looks colorless until light is reflected.

The source of the light is the sun.  Melisandre's Lord of Light and Life might also be the sun.  Or something that shines like the sun:

Cast your light upon us:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue. Davos understood only the last. "R'hllor, come to us in our darkness," she called. "Lord of Light, we offer you these false gods, these seven who are one, and him the enemy. Take them and cast your light upon us, for the night is dark and full of terrors." Queen Selyse echoed the words. Beside her, Stannis watched impassively, his jaw hard as stone under the blue-black shadow of his tight-cropped beard. He had dressed more richly than was his wont, as if for the sept.

Too much light can hurt the eyes:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns." Salladhor Saan finished the last grape and smacked his lips. "When do you think the king will bid us sail, good ser?"

 Casting the light using crystals so that one doesn't hurt the eyes looking directly at the sun.  But what does Mel mean about casting light?  Perhaps this:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

"Yes. Beneath. But we can go no farther. The portcullis goes all the way to the bottom. And the bars are too closely spaced for even a child to squeeze through."

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

 I think Melisandre is expecting her warrior of light to shine bright and carry a flaming sword.

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10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The source of the light is the sun.  Melisandre's Lord of Light and Life might also be the sun.  Or something that shines like the sun:

Cast your light upon us:

Too much light can hurt the eyes:

 Casting the light using crystals so that one doesn't hurt the eyes looking directly at the sun.  But what does Mel mean about casting light?  Perhaps this:

 I think Melisandre is expecting her warrior of light to shine bright and carry a flaming sword.

Do you think Melisandre is a fire wight like Beric, but wears a glamor so that we don't see a corpse? If so, maybe she's using light to reflect the glamor and that's why she shines?

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3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Do you think Melisandre is a fire wight like Beric, but wears a glamor so that we don't see a corpse? If so, maybe she's using light to reflect the glamor and that's why she shines?

I think she is using up some of her own life force to create a shadow Stannis.  I don't know if she is fully transformed.  Perhaps women are only partially transformed so they can be the mother of shadows.  Thoros says that he cannot resurrect Beric one more time or it could be the death of both of them.  So I don't know what to say about that, except that fire consumes.  

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18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think she is using up some of her own life force to create a shadow Stannis.  I don't know if she is fully transformed.  Perhaps women are only partially transformed so they can be the mother of shadows.  Thoros says that he cannot resurrect Beric one more time or it could be the death of both of them.  So I don't know what to say about that, except that fire consumes.  

I suspect Melisandre is a wight raised by fire magic. We read how Beric gave what was left of his resurrected life to Catelyn, so something can be transferred. The shadow that Melisandre gave "birth" to wasn't a baby. It was some kind of black shadow that resembled Stannis. She told Davos that she took some of Stannis's life-force to create the shadow, so whatever she did involved magic. If she's wearing a glamor and she's actually an undead corpse, then she made herself appear as if she were pregnant, because no one ever noticed that she was pregnant prior to the day of the actual "birth". Davos didn't notice until she removed her clothes. I think the pregnant body was a glamor too, and if "light" is required to create a shadow, then she needed to draw a light from some source. They were inside a dark cave, so the light had to have come from inside Melisandre. When she was raised by fire magic, her blood became molten like lava, so maybe the light is coming from an internal fire?

 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

except that fire consumes.  

Not really. Nothing ever fully consumes. It just transitions from one state into another. Fire is a cycle just like everything else. To use a wildfire as an example. Just as it consumes everything in its path. Along with destruction it also brings fertilizer for the next growth cycle. 

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