Kinslaying in the Nights Watch

[Sir Tumbleweed]

This all occurred to me when I reread Janos Slynt doing everything he could to defame Jon except for calling him a kinslayer.

Does the taboo of kinslaying apply to the Nights Watch? There are other organizations that renounce their families or vow to not wed or have children, but as far as I know they don't start to identify their new peers as family like the black brothers do. Maesters give up their surname, but don't seem to really bond much unless they're hangin' out at the Citadel. Silent sisters would be the closest comparison except we don't have a POV and they don't seem to be doing much slaying. The members of the Nights Watch, on the other hand, are constantly reminding each other that they're literally brothers now and that their previous family is of no consequence.

So is a member of the watch forever cursed once he kills one of his sworn brothers? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the only members to kill a sworn brother in our story are Jon Snow (twice), Ollo Lophand and his fellow mutineers, and Bowen Marsh with his fellow mutineers. All of the Nights Watch kinslayers (except Marsh because of the cliffhanger) were avenged in a somewhat timely fashion and they were all killed by one of their black brothers, presumably continuing the cycle. It's interesting to me that they were all killed by another member of the watch and not out ranging or in some other way. Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon after he slayed Qhorin Halfhand and Janos Slynt, and Coldhands killed Ollo along with his co-conspirators.

I should mention; In the cases of 'Jon vs Othor' and 'Sam/Coldhands/Bloodraven vs Small Paul', it doesn't make sense to me that the taboo would apply once they've turned undead. It's also cool that Coldhands was the one to kill the mutineers from Crasters Keep because it a nice way to close the loop of brother slaying brother.

 

Are there other 'Nightswatch  kinslayers' that I've missed? What do you think?

[Moiraine Sedai]

The NW is a brotherhood.  So yes, the killing of a crow by another is considered very serious.  Which partly adds to the tragedy around Bowen, Jon, Mance, and Janos.  Mance should really be cursed for all the wrongs he has committed against the watch. All of that because he wanted more freedom allowed by the order.  Jon and Bowen are both cursed.  Jon backed Bowen into a corner because the planned attack on the Bolton's needed to be stopped.  Poor Bowen was forced to dishonor the watch.  Jon chose to dishonor the watch because he loved his sister more than anything.  Janos comes out looking better out of this group.  Mance and Jon the worst. Jon used his position to avenge his family.  

[kissdbyfire]

There’s no mention from any character in the story regarding kinslaying among the NW men, but it is an interesting idea. Jon killed Qhorin, as per Qhorin’s own instructions. And Janos Slynt was rightly executed for insubordination. That said, I do like that karma is a bitch, and the fact that those men who betrayed their brothers met w/ very nasty fates. As I’m sure will be the case for Marsh & co. Can’t. Wait.

 

[Groo]

As part of the NW's long strange history, aren't we told that once two of the NW's castles went to war against each other? I doubt that ended with the rest of the NW executing everyone in the two castles for "kinslaying".

[Sir Tumbleweed]

I'm not defending Mance or Janos as they were both pretty bad dudes, but Janos didn't slay a fellow member and I don't recall any evidence that Mance did either. You could speculate that he did, but just as easily speculate that he did not. He undoubtably is responsible for the deaths of nights watchmen since he leads the wildings, and that could get complicated (Victarion wonders about degrees of kinslaying, like if he doesn't kill Euron himself but rather orders someone else to do it). My point is he doesn't bloody his own hands.

I'm well aware that there was very logical reasons that Jon, Ollo & friends were all taken out, but it's striking to me that they're killed by members of the watch. I expect that Bowen will die pretty early in TWoW and that it will be at the hands of a member of the watch, whether they're undead or not.

As for the two castles warring with each other, yeah good point. Although that doesn't mean that 'everyone is executed for kinslaying'. There would be plenty of Stewards/Builders who don't kill anyone themselves. There would also be a great deal of yielding I imagine, not everyone involved would be killing a brother. Don't get me wrong, lots of people would die!

[Rondo]

6 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Does the taboo of kinslaying apply to the Nights Watch?

It is very much looked down upon.  Briefly because the perpetrator will be executed.

6 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

So is a member of the watch forever cursed once he kills one of his sworn brothers? I

Jon will be executed again if he comes back to life.  He will choose to escape because honor means nothing to him.  Those who know of him will treat him like a pariah.  Bowen will be killed by the free folk.  I feel sorry for him.  It wasn't his fault.  Jon lost his marbles and had to be removed from power in the only way possible.  

[Curled Finger]

Didn't the Nights King of legend also kill his own men?  

8 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

As for the two castles warring with each other, yeah good point. Although that doesn't mean that 'everyone is executed for kinslaying'. There would be plenty of Stewards/Builders who don't kill anyone themselves. There would also be a great deal of yielding I imagine, not everyone involved would be killing a brother. Don't get me wrong, lots of people would die!

Considering there are more Wildlings manning the Wall than southerners, this bit at the Wall should become very interesting with regard to justice, vows and duty.    

[King17]

I don't know if it is kinslaying but bran seemed pretty upset when coldhands killed the nights watch mutineers so I think it pretty frowned upon.

[Jeeves]

11 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

I'm not defending Mance or Janos as they were both pretty bad dudes, but Janos didn't slay a fellow member and I don't recall any evidence that Mance did either. You could speculate that he did, but just as easily speculate that he did not. He undoubtably is responsible for the deaths of nights watchmen since he leads the wildings, and that could get complicated (Victarion wonders about degrees of kinslaying, like if he doesn't kill Euron himself but rather orders someone else to do it). My point is he doesn't bloody his own hands.

I'm well aware that there was very logical reasons that Jon, Ollo & friends were all taken out, but it's striking to me that they're killed by members of the watch. I expect that Bowen will die pretty early in TWoW and that it will be at the hands of a member of the watch, whether they're undead or not.

As for the two castles warring with each other, yeah good point. Although that doesn't mean that 'everyone is executed for kinslaying'. There would be plenty of Stewards/Builders who don't kill anyone themselves. There would also be a great deal of yielding I imagine, not everyone involved would be killing a brother. Don't get me wrong, lots of people would die!

Mance is a very bad man.  His attacks on the Wall killed many of his brothers.  Mance deserved death many times over.  Janos is a different story.  All of his crimes were forgiven after he took his vows.  Not that Janos is a good man but he should not have been executed.  Jon took this chance to kill a man who was his father's enemy.  Bowen will die alright but it will be the wildlings who will murder him. 

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, Rondo said:

Jon will be executed again if he comes back to life

When was he executed first? Oh you mean the ASSASSINATION by Poor Marsh and Co. 

And by whom and for what? Three fingered Hobb for not appreciating his meat stew? 

9 hours ago, Rondo said:

He will choose to escape because honor means nothing to him

Yeah right. And Cersei is the Maid herself. 

Jon is Ned's son. He'll die before being dishonorable. 

9 hours ago, Rondo said:

Those who know of him will treat him like a pariah. 

Blah blah blah blah 

9 hours ago, Rondo said:

Bowen will be killed by the free folk.  I feel sorry for him.  It wasn't his fault.

Of course you do. And his crocodile tears were sincere. And it wasn't his fault. Bowen was the one who tried to convince the prejudiced Jon that the true enemy are the Others and not the damn wildling. Bowen was the guy who was trying to save the fricking Realm while Jon was a coward who wanted to save his own ass. What else? 

3 hours ago, King17 said:

I don't know if it is kinslaying but bran seemed pretty upset when coldhands killed the nights watch mutineers so I think it pretty frowned upon

IIRC Bran didn't know that they were deserters and traitors and murderers (Kinslayers in fact) 

2 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Jon took this chance to kill a man who was his father's enemy

We were in Jon's head at that time and I'm pretty sure that Jon wasn't like "Die die die, you killed my daddy heh? Die bitch die...." 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

 

We were in Jon's head at that time and I'm pretty sure that Jon wasn't like "Die die die, you killed my daddy heh? Die bitch die...." 

A less extreme version of that, but same ballpark. He was fantasizing about chopping his head off before Janos had been condemned.

 

Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well.

"Lord Janos." Jon sheathed his sword. "I am giving you command of Greyguard."

 

Jon wanted him dead. He was always going to kill him the first chance he got.

[Loose Bolt]

What about Red Wedding? I assume that children of nobles had married each other very long time and so it would have been very unlikely if people who made that massacre happen did NOT have any relatives among people they killed. So either those marriages were so rare that they did not matter at all or they just did not like their cousins.

[King17]

9 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

When was he executed first? Oh you mean the ASSASSINATION by Poor Marsh and Co. 

And by whom and for what? Three fingered Hobb for not appreciating his meat stew? 

Yeah right. And Cersei is the Maid herself. 

Jon is Ned's son. He'll die before being dishonorable. 

Blah blah blah blah 

Of course you do. And his crocodile tears were sincere. And it wasn't his fault. Bowen was the one who tried to convince the prejudiced Jon that the true enemy are the Others and not the damn wildling. Bowen was the guy who was trying to save the fricking Realm while Jon was a coward who wanted to save his own ass. What else? 

IIRC Bran didn't know that they were deserters and traitors and murderers (Kinslayers in fact) 

We were in Jon's head at that time and I'm pretty sure that Jon wasn't like "Die die die, you killed my daddy heh? Die bitch die...." 

True but bran did know they were nights watch and was furious that coldhands killed them

[Megorova]

The Lord Commander, who became the Night's King, was a Stark. Those Night's Watchers that didn't joined him and his Corpse Queen, he sacrificed to the Others. Later he was killed by Lord Stark, his brother or some other relative from Winterfell. (Fake)Mance, who was a Night's Watcher, was sacrificed by Stannis and Melisandre to R'hllor, not by his "brothers". If the real Mance is also dead, then he was killed by Ramsay, also not by his "brothers". And the guy, who was escorting Sam and Gilly to Braavos, got killed by Arya, after he betrayed vows of NW. So, unlike other "rules", made up for ASOIAF by GRRM, it's not definite that NW's traitors or mutineers all will be killed by their "brothers" from NW.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

19 hours ago, Rondo said:

honor means nothing to him.

Not falling for that one, Rondo!

 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Didn't the Nights King of legend also kill his own men?  

Considering there are more Wildlings manning the Wall than southerners, this bit at the Wall should become very interesting with regard to justice, vows and duty.    

 

Uhh, maybe? He was from a point in history where people didn't even write books, they just left symbols on stone (heiroglyphs), so I doubt any stories people tell about him are highly accurate. I do believe he did a great deal of sacrificing though, but even if one guy slays a hundred of his kin, there's only one kinslayer to deal with, it wouldn't deplete the watch too terribly. Keep in mind that right after the Red Wedding people are telling stories all across Westeros about how Rob and all his men transformed into raving beasts and were tearing men apart at the wedding. I would take any stories from Old Nan with a grain of salt.

Yes there's alot of Free folk at the wall now, and Jon recruits and tries to assimilate them. BUT he does not require that they say any vows. Some wildlings will definitely be killing some of the Watch/Queens men, but that's fair game as far as curses go because they're not brothers.

 

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was fantasizing about chopping his head off before Janos had been condemned.

Jon wanted him dead. He was always going to kill him the first chance he got.

Can't argue that he was fantasizing about avenging his father, and I can't blame him either. Chett was certainly fantasizing about killing Sam, and Bowen likely had similar thoughts as he brooded on it for long enough to hatch an actual plot and recruit others to his cause. Every one of them has 'fantasized' about killing their eventual victims.

To your second point. Nope not at all, Jon executed Janos after his second refusal to carry out his orders. And it wasn't a simple "no sir" it was more along the lines of "It'll be a cold day in all the seven hells before I listen to a traitors bastard" (Don't have the book on hand right now) so it was pretty justified if you ask me. He was also sewing dissention and lies about his lord commander, he likely would have led his own mutiny if he lasted a little longer.

 

13 hours ago, King17 said:

I don't know if it is kinslaying but bran seemed pretty upset when coldhands killed the nights watch mutineers so I think it pretty frowned upon.

Bran didn't know what type of men they were, only that Coldhands said he would go take care of them. And he's in no position to complain of other persons taboo because he's warged a human, ate human flesh while warging Summer, and cannibalized people himself. He also eats writhing undead flesh while warging Summer which I find pretty disturbing.

 

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

(Fake)Mance, who was a Night's Watcher, was sacrificed by Stannis and Melisandre to R'hllor, not by his "brothers". If the real Mance is also dead, then he was killed by Ramsay, also not by his "brothers". And the guy, who was escorting Sam and Gilly to Braavos, got killed by Arya, after he betrayed vows of NW. So, unlike other "rules", made up for ASOIAF by GRRM, it's not definite that NW's traitors or mutineers all will be killed by their "brothers" from NW.

 

Oathbreaking isn't the point of this thread, though some people have cited desertion etc. I don't think Mance is dead but his 'replacement' was not killed by Stannis or Melissandre. It was Jon (Triple Kill!) who ordered his archers to fire on him out of.. mercy? You could argue semantics but Jon issued the command to feather someone who he thought at the time was a Nights Watchmen. 

The new recruiter Dareon was a deserter but not a kinslayer which is why I left him out of the OP. The thread is specifically about kinslaying. He deserted and Arya did what she does best.

[Seams]

I'm glad your thread is getting more responses than my old attempts to explore "brother death." Some of my earliest attempts to launch discussions discussed variations on this idea.

Central point: "... maybe NW-on-NW killing is a way of freeing a sworn man from his oath, allowing him to accomplish something that mortal members of the Night's Watch cannot achieve."

Just trying to compile a comprehensive list of brothers killing brothers. Some good examples in the comments, including Jon Snow beheading Robb Stark in a dream (ADwD, Jon XI) and links to earlier threads focused on kinslaying.

Central points:

"Does a dead sibling become a source of strength or guardian for a living sibling? An enemy? Does the living sibling absorb some of the qualities of the dead guy?"

"I'd be interested to find (literary) evidence in each case that the dead brother remains a partner or guardian to each living sibling, perhaps providing strengths to the living sibling that were lacking before the brother died."

"My guess is that the dead sibling can "come back" in some way - be reborn - but only if the living sibling dies - only death can pay for life."

"If this theory is right, one sibling may be sacrificed (Brienne says her siblings were taken by the gods) so the living sibling could thrive or have a clearer path to success. But the living sibling has to be on guard as the dead sibling might be reborn and try to reclaim the hero's role. Very much an Osiris and Set situation."

These are long-ago threads for me and I barely remember writing them (I was surprised that I raised the topic three separate times - oops) so I don't have a lot invested in the content. Glad if your thread can start to generate some new analysis.

[Darth Sidious]

12 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Jon is Ned's son. He'll die before being dishonorable. 

That's bullcrap.  Jon was ready to leave his post at the wall to fight for Robb.  He killed Slynt for a minor offense and let somebody like Mance off the hook.  I'd say Rondo is right about Jon lacking honor.  Jon dishonored himself and then died.  

I could agree with you on the assassination instead of execution bit.  However, Jon was the one who forced that situation to happen.  All in all, it was Jon's fault.  

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:34 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

This all occurred to me when I reread Janos Slynt doing everything he could to defame Jon except for calling him a kinslayer.

Does the taboo of kinslaying apply to the Nights Watch? There are other organizations that renounce their families or vow to not wed or have children, but as far as I know they don't start to identify their new peers as family like the black brothers do. Maesters give up their surname, but don't seem to really bond much unless they're hangin' out at the Citadel. Silent sisters would be the closest comparison except we don't have a POV and they don't seem to be doing much slaying. The members of the Nights Watch, on the other hand, are constantly reminding each other that they're literally brothers now and that their previous family is of no consequence.

So is a member of the watch forever cursed once he kills one of his sworn brothers? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the only members to kill a sworn brother in our story are Jon Snow (twice), Ollo Lophand and his fellow mutineers, and Bowen Marsh with his fellow mutineers. All of the Nights Watch kinslayers (except Marsh because of the cliffhanger) were avenged in a somewhat timely fashion and they were all killed by one of their black brothers, presumably continuing the cycle. It's interesting to me that they were all killed by another member of the watch and not out ranging or in some other way. Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon after he slayed Qhorin Halfhand and Janos Slynt, and Coldhands killed Ollo along with his co-conspirators.

I should mention; In the cases of 'Jon vs Othor' and 'Sam/Coldhands/Bloodraven vs Small Paul', it doesn't make sense to me that the taboo would apply once they've turned undead. It's also cool that Coldhands was the one to kill the mutineers from Crasters Keep because it a nice way to close the loop of brother slaying brother.

 

Are there other 'Nightswatch  kinslayers' that I've missed? What do you think?

I don't know about cursed but their reputation will be garbage going forward.  A good analogy is getting branded socially if one should somehow make it out alive.  Kinslaying is not something taken lightly.  The public dislike for Tyrion's killing of Tywin is not going away anytime soon.  A man of the night's watch murdering another is just as bad if not more so.  Don't count on Jon being welcomed back with open arms and thought of as a hero.  Bowen might live through this.  The wildlings are more interested in getting their king back atm. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Uhh, maybe? He was from a point in history where people didn't even write books, they just left symbols on stone (heiroglyphs), so I doubt any stories people tell about him are highly accurate. I do believe he did a great deal of sacrificing though, but even if one guy slays a hundred of his kin, there's only one kinslayer to deal with, it wouldn't deplete the watch too terribly. Keep in mind that right after the Red Wedding people are telling stories all across Westeros about how Rob and all his men transformed into raving beasts and were tearing men apart at the wedding. I would take any stories from Old Nan with a grain of salt.

Yes there's alot of Free folk at the wall now, and Jon recruits and tries to assimilate them. BUT he does not require that they say any vows. Some wildlings will definitely be killing some of the Watch/Queens men, but that's fair game as far as curses go because they're not brothers.

 

As I recall NK turned some of the NW brothers to his evil ways, presumably sacrificing.   Would think that counts.   Nonetheless, I'm sticking with Old Nan.  Anyone who joins the watch takes the vows.  There are Free Folk swearing.  Jon's thinking about giving Leathers a position within the order.  Jon doesn't require the Wildlings who simply take up residence in the castles to take vows joining the NW is a whole different thing. 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Anyone who joins the watch takes the vows.  There are Free Folk swearing.  Jon's thinking about giving Leathers a position within the order.  Jon doesn't require the Wildlings who simply take up residence in the castles to take vows joining the NW is a whole different thing. 

There are two wildlings who take their vows and officially join the Nights Watch in the books. Jax and Leathers. If Jax or Leathers kill a member then it would be kinslaying, for another wildling to do so would just be murder.

Edit to add - Yeah NK sacrificing brothers would definitely count, not denying that.