Kinslaying in the Nights Watch

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Jon's thinking about giving Leathers a position within the order. 
 

Leathers, who is present during the assassination attempt, has been appointed as master-at-arms. Of course Bowen Marsh, who is xenophobic, homophobic,  coward, and stupid, objected to that, same as he objected to Satin being made Jon’s steward and squire. 

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Jon doesn't require the Wildlings who simply take up residence in the castles to take vows joining the NW is a whole different thing.

 

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Not falling for that one, Rondo!

 

 

Uhh, maybe? He was from a point in history where people didn't even write books, they just left symbols on stone (heiroglyphs), so I doubt any stories people tell about him are highly accurate. I do believe he did a great deal of sacrificing though, but even if one guy slays a hundred of his kin, there's only one kinslayer to deal with, it wouldn't deplete the watch too terribly. Keep in mind that right after the Red Wedding people are telling stories all across Westeros about how Rob and all his men transformed into raving beasts and were tearing men apart at the wedding. I would take any stories from Old Nan with a grain of salt.

Yes there's alot of Free folk at the wall now, and Jon recruits and tries to assimilate them. BUT he does not require that they say any vows. Some wildlings will definitely be killing some of the Watch/Queens men, but that's fair game as far as curses go because they're not brothers.

 

Can't argue that he was fantasizing about avenging his father, and I can't blame him either. Chett was certainly fantasizing about killing Sam, and Bowen likely had similar thoughts as he brooded on it for long enough to hatch an actual plot and recruit others to his cause. Every one of them has 'fantasized' about killing their eventual victims.

To your second point. Nope not at all, Jon executed Janos after his second refusal to carry out his orders. And it wasn't a simple "no sir" it was more along the lines of "It'll be a cold day in all the seven hells before I listen to a traitors bastard" (Don't have the book on hand right now) so it was pretty justified if you ask me. He was also sewing dissention and lies about his lord commander, he likely would have led his own mutiny if he lasted a little longer.

 

Bran didn't know what type of men they were, only that Coldhands said he would go take care of them. And he's in no position to complain of other persons taboo because he's warged a human, ate human flesh while warging Summer, and cannibalized people himself. He also eats writhing undead flesh while warging Summer which I find pretty disturbing.

 

 

Oathbreaking isn't the point of this thread, though some people have cited desertion etc. I don't think Mance is dead but his 'replacement' was not killed by Stannis or Melissandre. It was Jon (Triple Kill!) who ordered his archers to fire on him out of.. mercy? You could argue semantics but Jon issued the command to feather someone who he thought at the time was a Nights Watchmen. 

The new recruiter Dareon was a deserter but not a kinslayer which is why I left him out of the OP. The thread is specifically about kinslaying. He deserted and Arya did what she does best.

 

You said it. I was gonna, but you beat me to it

9 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

22 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Jon is Ned's son. He'll die before being dishonorable. 

That's bullcrap.  Jon was ready to leave his post at the wall to fight for Robb.  He killed Slynt for a minor offense and let somebody like Mance off the hook.  I'd say Rondo is right about Jon lacking honor.  Jon dishonored himself and then died.  

I could agree with you on the assassination instead of execution bit.  However, Jon was the one who forced that situation to happen.  All in all, it was Jon's fault

Let's go through your points one by one. 

Jon was ready to leave his post to fight for Robb,.... BUT DID HE??? No points for points that accuse somebody of going to do something. He didn't do it. Matter over. Closed. He was convinced by his own mind and people he trusted as friends and mentors. 

And killing Slynt for a MINOR OFFENSE? Repeated vulgar insubordination, causing dissent, inciting mutiny, threatening the unity of the already weakened NW at a time where it's needed the most, all for his bigoted prejudiced notions and false ego are NOT minor offenses. 

If Slynt had called Tywin half the names he called Jon, there would be no doubt about his end. But you would be like "That's leadership. Cruel, yeah, but needed". With a serious nodding face to go with it. But with you haters, all Jon does is wrong.

And Mance is NOT of the hook. He is being used as an expendable asset. Like the CIA does. Suicide squad ring any bells ?. Mance is like a dog on a loooooong leash (the ruby linked to meli) No vows broken. Once Mance is done with the jobs assigned, the decision will be taken for what's best for the Realm, not for what's best for haters to point out. 

And about @Rondo, pleeeeaase. I've gone through it before and so has the OP's creator ( @Sir Tumbleweed) All sounds fair enough. If you can take the number of characters in the series as 1000, Jon has honor more than 998 of them. The others before may be Brienne and...? Even I can't think of someone else. Can you put together a list of 10,at least ten with more honor than Jon. And not Dany, pleeeeaase again. And sometimes.... The right thing to do is not always honorable, but it's the right thing to do. Just ask Ned. 

And I'm really glad you agree with me about the ASSASSINATION. Of course Jon forced it to happen. He didn't try hard enough to change the prejudices of the old cowards who never understood who the real enemy were, Others, not wildlings. It was Jon's fault.... that way. 

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

 

 

Can't argue that he was fantasizing about avenging his father, and I can't blame him either. Chett was certainly fantasizing about killing Sam, and Bowen likely had similar thoughts as he brooded on it for long enough to hatch an actual plot and recruit others to his cause. Every one of them has 'fantasized' about killing their eventual victims.

That is not exactly great company for Jon to be keeping.

14 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

To your second point. Nope not at all, Jon executed Janos after his second refusal to carry out his orders. And it wasn't a simple "no sir" it was more along the lines of "It'll be a cold day in all the seven hells before I listen to a traitors bastard" (Don't have the book on hand right now) so it was pretty justified if you ask me. He was also sewing dissention and lies about his lord commander, he likely would have led his own mutiny if he lasted a little longer.

Janos' crime was not worthy of death. And I agree with you, pragmatically Jon was wise getting rid of a potential rival who he felt could mutiny, but morally it was wrong as a brother's past crimes were supposed to be forgotten. Jon executed him because of who Slynt was in his past life.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Janos' crime was not worthy of death. And I agree with you, pragmatically Jon was wise getting rid of a potential rival who he felt could mutiny, but morally it was wrong as a brother's past crimes were supposed to be forgotten. Jon executed him because of who Slynt was in his past life.

Agreed.  There was no justice in the killing of Janos Slynt. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

It's not kinslaying in the sense that a blood brother is killed.  But it is more extreme than, let's say, an American soldier murdering another.  The bond between the crows are for life.  They give up their blood families and become one big family at the Wall.  We can see how Bowen Marsh felt about it.  He was crying because he had no choice but to commit this distasteful act.  Marsh was an honorable man of the watch who had serve faithfully but bad luck brought Jon Snow to the Wall to create this mess with the Boltons. 

 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

12 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Agreed.  There was no justice in the killing of Janos Slynt. 

 

Eh I guess that comes down to personal opinion. Janos was practically brand new at the wall and he tried to execute Jon as soon as he returned from beyond the wall. He would have done it too, if not for Maester Aemon shutting him down. After which Janos used the most extreme punishment he was allowed to which was throwing Jon in an ice cell. 

I don't blame Jon for beheading the guy, but I could strain myself to agree with you  Maybe it would have been more fair for Jon to return the favor and just put Janos in an ice cell for awhile. Really hard to say though, like I said before the degree of insubordination is more severe than we see from others. Especially considering that he's not craven, he's just being a dick. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

 

Eh I guess that comes down to personal opinion. Janos was practically brand new at the wall and he tried to execute Jon as soon as he returned from beyond the wall. He would have done it too, if not for Maester Aemon shutting him down. After which Janos used the most extreme punishment he was allowed to which was throwing Jon in an ice cell. 

I don't blame Jon for beheading the guy, but I could strain myself to agree with you  Maybe it would have been more fair for Jon to return the favor and just put Janos in an ice cell for awhile. Really hard to say though, like I said before the degree of insubordination is more severe than we see from others. Especially considering that he's not craven, he's just being a dick. 

This is true, a far more suitable punishment for his crime, and actually it was the punishment Jon was initially going to give Slynt before his anger took over.

"As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—"

—and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

"—and hang him," Jon finished.

 

So not only does Jon fantasize about killed Janos before he's disobeyed a command, but hanging him (then chopping his head off) were not even his original punishments for his insubordination.

 

Janos was executed for what he might have done, based on his former life, rather than what he had actually done as a brother. Morally, in the spirit of the vows of the Nights Watch, it was wrong. Pragmatically it was the right option (depending on the motivation of Bowen and his conspirators, it is possible that Janos execution left with them no option but to kill Jon).

 

Jon as Lord Commander was honour bound to treat everyone, including Janos. as his sworn brother.

 

All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us.

 

Jon could not get past that, and ignored his vows.

 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

Alot of Jons mistreatment is because of his parentage, which I find more unfair than it being based on past crimes. His 'father' was defamed and Jon was harassed by his superiors for something Ned didn't even really do. I see no amnesty happening there. Jon's one of the few who actually volunteered for the watch instead of being sent there too, too bad no one seems to care.

 

This has veered off topic though. Janos is alotta things, but he's no kinslayer.

[kissdbyfire]

Yup, another thread turned into a Jon/Starks hate thread, by the "Janos Slynt is an honourable upstanding member of the NW" crew. 

Next usually we get the "Poor, misunderstood Ramsay Bolton" ( ) and then, finally, "Bowen Marsh is awesome"

. Sadly this emoji  cannot express how hard I'm rolling my eyes; I can actually see the back of my skull.

[Kierria]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon as Lord Commander was honour bound to treat everyone, including Janos. as his sworn brother.

He was honor bound and legally bound to judge Janos and Mance fairly.  One man was killed for a comparatively minor crime while the worst criminal was allowed to walk. 

[Bernie Mac]

57 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup, another thread turned into a Jon/Starks hate thread, by the "Janos Slynt is an honourable upstanding member of the NW" crew. 

You seem pretty sensitive. I agree with Jon's decision, it was the pragmatic one to make, but it did go against the vows of the Night Watch.

Do you not like nuanced conversation?

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Next usually we get the "Poor, misunderstood Ramsay Bolton" ( ) and then, finally, "Bowen Marsh is awesome"

Okay. Why not contribute to the discussion instead of whine? Or is it a case of too much wine tonight

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Alot of Jons mistreatment is because of his parentage, which I find more unfair than it being based on past crimes. His 'father' was defamed and Jon was harassed by his superiors for something Ned didn't even really do. I see no amnesty happening there. Jon's one of the few who actually volunteered for the watch instead of being sent there too, too bad no one seems to care.

Jon was treated incredibly well by the Watch. Ask the likes of Grenn, Pip and other peasants who joined up which of the new recruits got preferential treatment.

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This has veered off topic though. Janos is alotta things, but he's no kinslayer.

I agree, Janos is no kinslayer. Guy joined the Watch because his sons were threatened, he actually has something in common with Ned.

 

Though I am being facetious, I presume you mean Jon, to which I also agree, he is not kinslayer.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stick with what you know, so please don't change. Emojis are often your best contributions to this forum.

Lol come on dude, I understand her frustration.

First you claimed 'Jon was always going to kill Janos first chance he got' which we've covered to be untrue.

After that you claimed 'Janos was executed for what he might have done, based on his former life, rather than what he had actually done as a brother'. Which is also untrue. It was what he did as a brother. Repeated insubordination to his Lord Commander was why he was executed. We see Jon on more than one occasion remind himself that Janos actions against Ned were before he took his vows, and he restrains himself. Obviously he didn't like the guy, but Jon showed great restraint, even offering Janos command of his own castle.

 

I get it though, you don't like Jon. You don't have to like Jon.

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Lol come on dude, I understand her frustration.

First you claimed 'Jon was always going to kill Janos first chance he got' which we've covered to be untrue.

How have we covered that to be untrue?

Jon sentences him to death the first opportunity he got.

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After that you claimed 'Janos was executed for what he might have done, based on his former life, rather than what he had actually done as a brother'.

Which is true given what Jon himself says.

• He admits that he can't view him as his brother, that he can't forgive his past sins
• Jon justifies killing him not for what he did, but what he might do in the future.

Are you just ignoring Jon's own words on this one?

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Which is also untrue.

How is it untrue? One of us is quoting directly from the book.

What is your evidence that it is not untrue?

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It was what he did as a brother.

No, it was not. Jon himself is very clear on that

"As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—"

—and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

"—and hang him," Jon finished.

 

 

Jon sentences him to death because of what he thinks he might do in the future, based on his past life.  This goes against the vows of the Nights Watch.

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Repeated insubordination to his Lord Commander was why he was executed.

Not according to Jon's own thoughts. He is crystal clear. His initial thoughts were to

• stick him in a cell
• force him to go by tying him to a horse

He instead backs down from both of those, not because of the insubordination, but because of what Jon fears he may do. His thoughts are very clear on this.

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We see Jon on more than one occasion remind himself that Janos actions against Ned were before he took his vows, and he restrains himself.

The first chance he gets he railroads him. Not only does he fantasize about chopping his head off, but he does it.

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Obviously he didn't like the guy, but Jon showed great restraint, even offering Janos command of his own castle.

That was not great restraint. Murdering someone for a petty crime is not showing great restraint.

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I get it though, you don't like Jon. You don't have to like Jon.

 

Where have I said I don't like him? I've argued that he made the right decision.

This is going to come off as very condescending, but it is childish for you and others to play the 'hate' card every time someone says something you don't agree with.

 

I have almost 2,500 posts on this forum. If you are convinced that I hate Jon, it will be very easy for you to prove that.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

Our first disagreement was whether or not Jon killed Janos first opportunity he got, which he didn't.

Jon II ADwD

conversation starts with Jon saying "Lord Janos. I am giving you command of Greyguard." and it ends with Janos line "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. No traitor's bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! I am not without friends, I warn you. Here, and in Kings Landing too. I was the Lord of Harrenhal! Give your ruin to one of the blind foots who cast a stone for you, I will not have it. Do you hear me, boy? I will not have it!"

This was Jons first opportunity to kill Janos Slynt.

"He could only hope that a night's sleep would bring Lord Janos to his senses." It wasn't until the next day when Jon reminds Janos of his orders

"Lord Janos, I will give you one last chance. Put down that spoon and get to the stables. I have had your horse saddled and bridled. It is a long, hard road to Greyguard." and here is the following exchange

Janos - "Then you had best be on your way, boy. Greyguard's a good place for the likes of you, I'm thinking. Well away from decent godly folk. The mark of the beast is on you, bastard."

Jon - "Are you refusing my order?"

Janos - "You can stick your order up your bastard's arse,

Jon - "As you will." and proceeds to sentence him. He then ponders over whether it'll be Ice cells, to 'tie him to his horse', or execute him. But those thoughts and his rationalizations are after he decided to punish Janos. Just as a reminder the reason he punishes Janos is for insubordination, not for possible future mutany. Janos just openly defied him infront of the whole mess hall. which was my second point. 

Quotes and all.

 

 

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I have almost 2,500 posts on this forum. If you are convinced that I hate Jon, it will be very easy for you to prove that.

@kissdbyfire has 14000 odd posts IIRC. She has a right to "whine" as you say. She might have contributed to similar threads that veered towards anti-JON/STARK/NORTH by haters after a while.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

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Next usually we get the "Poor, misunderstood Ramsay Bolton" ( ) and then, finally, "Bowen Marsh is awesome"

Okay. Why not contribute to the discussion instead of whine? Or is it a case of too much wine tonight

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup, another thread turned into a Jon/Starks hate thread, by the "Janos Slynt is an honourable upstanding member of the NW" crew. 

Next usually we get the "Poor, misunderstood Ramsay Bolton" ( ) and then, finally, "Bowen Marsh is awesome"

. Sadly this emoji  cannot express how hard I'm rolling my eyes; I can actually see the back of my skull.

  I dont have the experience on the forum as you do. but still have seen enough of these to understand.

And its an emoticon, not emoji

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Our first disagreement was whether or not Jon killed Janos first opportunity he got, which he didn't.

Sure he did. The first time he had cause to punish him he gave him the maximum punishment he could.

5 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Jon II ADwD

conversation starts with Jon saying "Lord Janos. I am giving you command of Greyguard." and it ends with Janos line "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. No traitor's bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! I am not without friends, I warn you. Here, and in Kings Landing too. I was the Lord of Harrenhal! Give your ruin to one of the blind foots who cast a stone for you, I will not have it. Do you hear me, boy? I will not have it!"

This was Jons first opportunity to kill Janos Slynt.

Was it? Since when is being an arrogant idiot a crime in the Watch?

When has anyone ever had any kind of punishment in the Watch for being disrespectful?

 

 

 

 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Was it? Since when is

10 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Our first disagreement was whether or not Jon killed Janos first opportunity he got, which he didn't.

Jon II ADwD

conversation starts with Jon saying "Lord Janos. I am giving you command of Greyguard." and it ends with Janos line "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. No traitor's bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! I am not without friends, I warn you. Here, and in Kings Landing too. I was the Lord of Harrenhal! Give your ruin to one of the blind foots who cast a stone for you, I will not have it. Do you hear me, boy? I will not have it!"

This was Jons first opportunity to kill Janos Slynt.

 

Since when is being an arrogant idiot a crime in the Watch?

When has anyone ever had any kind of punishment in the Watch for being disrespectful?

 

You're right. Janos was an arrogant idiot, and he was being disrespectful.

Are you claiming that his lines I've quoted are not insubordination? Hmmmm. Okay then 

[kissdbyfire]

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You seem pretty sensitive.

Not sure what you mean, nor why would that matter. 

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I agree with Jon's decision, it was the pragmatic one to make, but it did go against the vows of the Night Watch.

I don’t think gross insubordination in a hierarchical military organisation being a capital offence is against the vows of the NW. 

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you not like nuanced conversation?
 

Again, not sure what you mean. 

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Okay. Why not contribute to the discussion instead of whine? Or is it a case of too much wine tonight

 

Sigh. That is precisely the point. The thread is interesting, it’s an interesting topic. But as usual nowadays, every thread becomes a Jon/Stark bashing thread. In such a way that it not only kills the fun but, worse, ends up killing the actual thread. 
And just to make it perfectly clear, I wasn’t talking about your post. Our opinions may be very different, but I never took you for a blind hater. But hey, if the shoe fits and all that. 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:34 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

should mention; In the cases of 'Jon vs Othor' and 'Sam/Coldhands/Bloodraven vs Small Paul', it doesn't make sense to me that the taboo would apply once they've turned undead. It's also cool that Coldhands was the one to kill the mutineers from Crasters Keep because it a nice way to close the loop of brother slaying brother.

Right. Also, there is a difference between what the ice-dragon-Other is doing with dead people and what Coldhands is operating as. Superficialities there are many characters or plot details that appear the same, but a little more exploring shows they are actually different in their mechanics and plot necessity.