Kinslaying in the Nights Watch

[The Fattest Leech]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup, another thread turned into a Jon/Starks hate thread, by the "Janos Slynt is an honourable upstanding member of the NW" crew. 

Next usually we get the "Poor, misunderstood Ramsay Bolton" ( ) and then, finally, "Bowen Marsh is awesome"

. Sadly this emoji  cannot express how hard I'm rolling my eyes; I can actually see the back of my skull.

Don’t forget #FreyFamilyValues. 

Lol at people that think GRRM writes characters all to the same shade of grey, something he says he doesn’t do. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Don’t forget #FreyFamilyValues. 
 

I will love @Lady Fevre Dream forever for coming up with that! 

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Lol at people that think GRRM writes characters all to the same shade of grey, something he says he doesn’t do. 

Yup. There may be some... erhm...  unhappiness amongst some readers when TWoW comes out.

[Bowen 747]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:34 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

This all occurred to me when I reread Janos Slynt doing everything he could to defame Jon except for calling him a kinslayer.

Does the taboo of kinslaying apply to the Nights Watch? There are other organizations that renounce their families or vow to not wed or have children, but as far as I know they don't start to identify their new peers as family like the black brothers do. Maesters give up their surname, but don't seem to really bond much unless they're hangin' out at the Citadel. Silent sisters would be the closest comparison except we don't have a POV and they don't seem to be doing much slaying. The members of the Nights Watch, on the other hand, are constantly reminding each other that they're literally brothers now and that their previous family is of no consequence.

So is a member of the watch forever cursed once he kills one of his sworn brothers? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the only members to kill a sworn brother in our story are Jon Snow (twice), Ollo Lophand and his fellow mutineers, and Bowen Marsh with his fellow mutineers. All of the Nights Watch kinslayers (except Marsh because of the cliffhanger) were avenged in a somewhat timely fashion and they were all killed by one of their black brothers, presumably continuing the cycle. It's interesting to me that they were all killed by another member of the watch and not out ranging or in some other way. Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon after he slayed Qhorin Halfhand and Janos Slynt, and Coldhands killed Ollo along with his co-conspirators.

I should mention; In the cases of 'Jon vs Othor' and 'Sam/Coldhands/Bloodraven vs Small Paul', it doesn't make sense to me that the taboo would apply once they've turned undead. It's also cool that Coldhands was the one to kill the mutineers from Crasters Keep because it a nice way to close the loop of brother slaying brother.

 

Are there other 'Nightswatch  kinslayers' that I've missed? What do you think?

Maesters are not expected to depend on one another in battle.  The same for the Silent Sisters.  A fitting ending for Sansa is this non-talkative sisterhood.  The Night's Watch depend on one another in life or death situations.  They are a family.  Mance Rayder really did a very bad thing when he left and then joined the wildlings.  I see little to no good in that man.  He should have been executed.  Bowen and the men who killed Jon will be executed as kinslayers (rebels who killed their sworn brother).  But they knew that going in.  They were sacrificing themselves to put a stop to Jon's foolishness. 

[Van Gogh]

On 9/3/2020 at 2:35 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

I'm not defending Mance or Janos as they were both pretty bad dudes, but Janos didn't slay a fellow member and I don't recall any evidence that Mance did either. You could speculate that he did, but just as easily speculate that he did not. He undoubtably is responsible for the deaths of nights watchmen since he leads the wildings, and that could get complicated (Victarion wonders about degrees of kinslaying, like if he doesn't kill Euron himself but rather orders someone else to do it). My point is he doesn't bloody his own hands.

I'm well aware that there was very logical reasons that Jon, Ollo & friends were all taken out, but it's striking to me that they're killed by members of the watch. I expect that Bowen will die pretty early in TWoW and that it will be at the hands of a member of the watch, whether they're undead or not.

As for the two castles warring with each other, yeah good point. Although that doesn't mean that 'everyone is executed for kinslaying'. There would be plenty of Stewards/Builders who don't kill anyone themselves. There would also be a great deal of yielding I imagine, not everyone involved would be killing a brother. Don't get me wrong, lots of people would die!

Mance Rayder ordered the savages to attack the wall gate.  So yes, he has the blood of his Brothers on his hands.  Don't forget, Mance Rayder is a member of the Night's Watch.  Having gone AWOL for a few years has not and does not excuse him from the Night's Watch.  Mance Rayder is still Night's Watch until he dies. 

Jon Snow has the blood of his Brothers on his hands.  He should have never killed Janos Slynt.  That was a very bad and rather stupid move in every way you look at it.  He was making up reasons in his mind to justify killing an enemy of House Stark. That was unethical and immoral behavior on Jon's part.  He alienated many of the Brothers who were friendly towards Janos Slynt.  He executed a man who should have been given some time in a cell at the most.  Then in turn, he lets a deserter, a kinslaying Brother, like Mance Rayder to walk because he liked him and the man's usefulness to help him get his sister.  Jon is not going to be treated like a hero when he comes back from death. Because he is not a hero. 

I see Bowen Marsh as an unfortunate casualty of Jon's poor leadership.  Bowen Marsh could not allow Jon Snow to lead a wildling army to attack the Boltons.  Jon was wrong in so many ways there.  Janos Slynt was a disagreeable man but he did not deserve to get executed like that.  Whatever he did in his past life before the watch has been erased and should no longer matter.  Janos, another victim of Jon's emotional instability and inappropriate attachment to the Starks.  The victimization of Bowen Marsh is not finished.  It is really sad for the loyal crannogman.  I expect Arya will come back totally messed up after learning of her brother's death for treason.  The treason part is not going to interest her in the least.  Bowen will be one of her victims. 

The Night's King was guilty of making human sacrifices.  Who knows, maybe he killed the other men who questioned his authority, like Jon did to Janos.  That makes him guilty of kinslaying.  So it may not be taboo but it is definitely treason.  Kinslaying among members of the Brotherhood is really treason more than taboo.  It is Just as bad or worse.  It might even violate the vows and might be extensible to guest rights violation in some cases. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Van Gogh said:

I see Bowen Marsh as an unfortunate casualty of Jon's poor leadership.  Bowen Marsh could not allow Jon Snow to lead a wildling army to attack the Boltons.  Janos Slynt was a disagreeable man but he did not deserve to get executed like that.  Whatever he did in his past life before the watch has been erased and should no longer matter.  Janos, another victim of Jon's emotional instability and poor leadership. 

The text makes it very clear, Janos Slynt wasn't executed for anything other than gross and repeated insubordination. 

3 minutes ago, Van Gogh said:

The victimization of Bowen Marsh is not finished.  It is really sad for the crannogman.  I expect Arya will come back totally messed up after learning of her brother's death for treason.  The treason part is not going to interest her in the least.  Bowen will be one of her victims. 

Nah, Bowen is not gonna last that long, thank the Old Gods. Westeros is a miserable place already, w/o xenophobic homophobic cowards making everything worse. First chapter we get at CB will be a bloodbath. Can't wait.

 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

3 hours ago, Van Gogh said:

Mance Rayder ordered the savages to attack the wall gate.  So yes, he has the blood of his Brothers on his hands.

True. He ordered wildlings to attack the wall and caused crows to die, no doubt about it. My OP was trying to aim at members of the watch who literally killed a brother with their own hands, but I wasn't specific enough. We don't have any evidence of Mance doing the deed himself on page as far as I know. 

The reason I brought up Victarion in the OP is because he reaaaally wants Euron dead, but isn't willing to be a kinslayer. He wonders if he would still be cursed if he didn't do the deed himself, but instead ordered someone else to kill Euron for him. Victarions thought process made me think of Mance Rayders actions as King Beyond the Wall.

 

3 hours ago, Van Gogh said:

I expect Arya will come back totally messed up after learning of her brother's death for treason.  The treason part is not going to interest her in the least.  Bowen will be one of her victims. 

Anythings possible. I think he'll be killed by a brother though because coincidentally every Member of the watch who has killed a fellow black brother on page & with their own hands has then been personally killed by another member of the brotherhood. 

 

Edit: Oops! I didn't mention Victarion in the OP, it was in post #5 of the thread. Apologies

[Shierak Qiya]

On 9/4/2020 at 5:57 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

I don't know about cursed but their reputation will be garbage going forward.  A good analogy is getting branded socially if one should somehow make it out alive.  Kinslaying is not something taken lightly.  The public dislike for Tyrion's killing of Tywin is not going away anytime soon.  A man of the night's watch murdering another is just as bad if not more so.  Don't count on Jon being welcomed back with open arms and thought of as a hero.  Bowen might live through this.  The wildlings are more interested in getting their king back atm. 

I would not write Bowen Marsh off just yet.  The other men will rally around him to reorganize the Order after Jon's damages.  He has the support of the other men.  Samwell would have done the same thing and with more tears.  Mance Rayder is another who should not be written off for dead.  Ramsay is making a big mistake in keeping that man alive.  

[Roswell]

Arya won't make it out of the Riverlands.  She is not the threat to Bowen Marsh.  The Wildings will have no reason to kill Bowen Marsh but there will be a big falling out between the watch and the wildlings.  The wildlings will simply leave and Bowen Marsh will not be able to stop them.  He won't try.  But he can send a warning to the Boltons.  They need to put Wundar down very quickly before he does any more harm.  Jon could skinchange the giant and send him after the men. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 9/6/2020 at 2:23 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I will love @Lady Fevre Dream forever for coming up with that! 

Yup. There may be some... erhm...  unhappiness amongst some readers when TWoW comes out.

I am SO GLAD I stopped in. 

Please, please, tell me we are not letting Freys into the Night's Watch?  What's even going on here? 

#FreyFamilyValues  Because SOMEONE has to value them, LOL 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I am SO GLAD I stopped in. 

Please, please, tell me we are not letting Freys into the Night's Watch?  What's even going on here? 
 

They’re everywhere, and they’re hard to eliminate... Like fleas, or cockroaches!

9 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

#FreyFamilyValues  Because SOMEONE has to value them, LOL 

 

[Rondo]

On 9/4/2020 at 2:56 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Not falling for that one, Rondo!

That's fine by me.  I am still saying Jon Snow is lacking in the honor department.  

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 9/5/2020 at 8:39 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

 

Eh I guess that comes down to personal opinion. Janos was practically brand new at the wall and he tried to execute Jon as soon as he returned from beyond the wall. He would have done it too, if not for Maester Aemon shutting him down. After which Janos used the most extreme punishment he was allowed to which was throwing Jon in an ice cell. 

I don't blame Jon for beheading the guy, but I could strain myself to agree with you  Maybe it would have been more fair for Jon to return the favor and just put Janos in an ice cell for awhile. Really hard to say though, like I said before the degree of insubordination is more severe than we see from others. Especially considering that he's not craven, he's just being a dick. 

Jon looked guilty.  You can't blame Janos for thinking the worst of him.  The punishment for desertion is execution.  What Jon did to Janos for insubordination, execution, was revenge.  I do blame Jon for carrying out an injustice.  He was the lord commander.  Jon was bound by duty to treat Janos and Mance evenly.  The fact that he killed one while letting the other go is a big injustice.

[Mourning Star]

Kinslaying gets you sent to the Ninth Circle in Dante's Inferno... Caina, named after Cain of biblical fame... where one is burried in ice up to the neck.

Violating Guest Right is also a ninth circle violation... but considered worse, and lands one in Ptolomea... where one's tears freeze in one's eye sockets and the sinner's soul falls to hell while their body is inhabited by a deamon on earth.

I find this oddly reminiscent of ASoIaF and the Others... and I don't think it is a coincidence.

However, Jon's murder would land the villains in the only place worse, Judecca, reserved for traitor's to their lords.

I'm not sure that executing subordinates qualifies as murder... but between Jon's killing of the Halfhand, sleeping with a woman, and involving himself in southern politics... it may be that we will see him "shoot the moon" on sinning, so to speak!

[El Guapo]

On 9/5/2020 at 11:15 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Jon was treated incredibly well by the Watch. Ask the likes of Grenn, Pip and other peasants who joined up which of the new recruits got preferential treatment.

I agree, Janos is no kinslayer. Guy joined the Watch because his sons were threatened, he actually has something in common with Ned.

 

Though I am being facetious, I presume you mean Jon, to which I also agree, he is not kinslayer.

 

Seriously. he even got to keep his own "pet" at the Watch. A pet for which he used to threaten his fellow brothers leading to direct interference in the training of recruits by a superior officer. The same superior officer by the way in which Jon attempted to kill for which he got the punishment of getting sent to his room without his supper.

[Jeeves]

Jon received a lot of leniency for offenses worse than Slynt's.  He should have given the month some leniency but unfortunately his bloodlust for revenge was too much.

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Jon received a lot of leniency for offenses worse than Slynt's.  He should have given the month some leniency but unfortunately his bloodlust for revenge was too much.

Do you ever post a comment without a hate speech about Jon and all the Starks and direwolves and North and without praising Dany and Targs sky high? 

Just curious. 

[Van Gogh]

On 9/6/2020 at 8:09 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The text makes it very clear, Janos Slynt wasn't executed for anything other than gross and repeated insubordination. 

Jon murdered Slynt for Ned.