Aline de Gavrillac Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 What options were open to Randyll and Tywin to prevent a son they saw as unfit heirs from inheriting their titles? Short of doing what Randyll did. What was Tywin planning to do with Tyrion if he could not get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 There are no legal options. The only thing they can do, and which both Lords did try to do, is try to have them married off to daughters of very powerful Houses who would then be invested in seeing their daughters/sisters and their grandchildren/nephews being in power. Tarly tried to do that with House Redwyne and was insulted given Sam had become infamous in the Reach. Tywin had possibly done that with Houses Tully, Martell, Royce and Florent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Well Tywin's Plan A was always to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard somehow. However, Tywin did do something similar to what Randyll did to Sam. He went along with falsely accusing Tyrion of a crime that would leave him ineligible of taking Lordship of Casterly Rock. In essence that was plan C. Plan B was giving Tyrion a lordship that wasn't the Rock such as when he married Sansa to Tyrion. Otherwise Tyrion probably would've been made Lord of Castamere or something in more normal times. If Jaime didn't inherit, Tyrion certainly wasn't going to if Tywin had his say. Kevan probably would've been his grudging option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Tarly tried to do that with House Redwyne and was insulted given Sam had become infamous in the Reach as far as I understand it was absolutely normal situation and had nothing to do with "preventing from inheriting". sam was supposed to serve as Redwyne's page (later probably become a squire and knight), then marry desmera redwyne and become lord tarly after his fathers death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, broken one said: as far as I understand it was absolutely normal situation and had nothing to do with "preventing from inheriting". sam was supposed to serve as Redwyne's page (later probably become a squire and knight), then marry desmera redwyne and become lord tarly after his fathers death. I possibly did not explain my position properly There is no way they can legally prevent from inheriting, but what they can do, if the heir seems unsuitable to rule, is to marry them off to a powerful House who will be invested to see them succeed and someone of their own blood eventually ruling. Sam may have been a liability, but if House Redwyne was invested in his success then this would help Sam when he got himself into trouble when other Lords or his vassals tried to undermine him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Tywin was hoping to get Jaime to leave the KG. He was not letting Tyrion have the rock. His back was not yet at the wall, so to speak. He might have pulled a Tarly if it had. They are bound by the same laws from which they have benefited for thousands of years. Fitness for the lordship has not been a part of the law. They inherit because of an accident of birth. The lucky sperm gets the goods. He would have needed the king's blessing to get around this law. Except Aerys was not going to be eager to release Jaime from the KG and it is more insulting to leave him with Tyrion as the heir to Casterly Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Beyond the legality of it you can imagine that most people that would be sufficiently "unsuitable" would lack the support needed to claim their rights if they simply get passed over in favour of someone more appealing, outside of someone wanting to play kingmaker and all the benefits that entails how much support could Tyrion reasonably generate if Tywin simply declared nah you're not my heir with some excuse. Tarly sent his son and heir to a penal colony and you can bet everyone that knew of Sam knows why and yet no one cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
867-5309 Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 That's what the wall is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDragon Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 In all honesty I don’t think Tywin ever thought that Jamie wouldn’t leave the Kingsguard at some point. there was probably some level of denial in it but I’m sure he had a plan to get his wanted heir to inherent the rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Can always try what Viserys I did, Ignoring every law, tradition and convention and naming a heir and starting a sucession dispute and a civil war in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
867-5309 Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 4 hours ago, Trigger Warning said: Beyond the legality of it you can imagine that most people that would be sufficiently "unsuitable" would lack the support needed to claim their rights if they simply get passed over in favour of someone more appealing, outside of someone wanting to play kingmaker and all the benefits that entails how much support could Tyrion reasonably generate if Tywin simply declared nah you're not my heir with some excuse. Tarly sent his son and heir to a penal colony and you can bet everyone that knew of Sam knows why and yet no one cares. So Lord Tarly was not the first person to do this kind of thing. Different method of encouragement but the principle is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
867-5309 Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Can always try what Viserys I did, Ignoring every law, tradition and convention and naming a heir and starting a sucession dispute and a civil war in the process. He was the king and could write the law. The dance happened because Hightower wanted his family DNA on the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said: What options were open to Randyll and Tywin to prevent a son they saw as unfit heirs from inheriting their titles? Short of doing what Randyll did. What was Tywin planning to do with Tyrion if he could not get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard? Well, Tywin was essentially ruling TSK, he could have made a decree disinheriting him. And maybe he could have done that just by being the lord of the westernlands and choosing his own heir, after all, Arianne thought her father did that to her in favour of Quentyn, and some people believe Aerys did that to Rhaegar. In fact, it seems to be what he did, he just plainly told Tyrion he won't inherit CR, maybe thats all he needed to do, he just didn't make it official because he didn't have a replacement heir yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farstrider Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Camilo is right. Tywin was never going to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion. He would have found a way to push Tyrion aside. He was counting on strong grandsons, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 13 minutes ago, The Coonster said: Camilo is right. Tywin was never going to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion. He would have found a way to push Tyrion aside. He was counting on strong grandsons, I think. Tywin is not immortal, nor did he know when he would die. Considering he was fighting in the War of the Five Kings and Jaime was captured, there was not a lot Tywin could have done had he died at some point in the book series. Tyrion would have been the presumed Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 36 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Tywin is not immortal, nor did he know when he would die. Considering he was fighting in the War of the Five Kings and Jaime was captured, there was not a lot Tywin could have done had he died at some point in the book series. Tyrion would have been the presumed Lord. Well, yes, but is really unlikely he would die in war, he stays back, watching the battle instead of fighting in it, and even if he lost, he's more likely to be captured than killed, as he means a big ransom either in gold or political power. I think he was just gonna shun Tyrion once he found a better heir or Jaime was let go as a kingsguard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 51 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: Well, yes, but is really unlikely he would die in war, he stays back, watching the battle instead of fighting in it, and even if he lost, he's more likely to be captured than killed, as he means a big ransom either in gold or political power. I think he was just gonna shun Tyrion once he found a better heir or Jaime was let go as a kingsguard More likely to not die, but he's still at war were a very real possibility is death. Even for commanders who lead from the reserve. Tywin has already outlived his own father (died at 47) by a decade, outlived at least one younger brother, his wife, three uncles and I think it reasonable to assume that his grandfather Gerold was not much older(maybe younger) than Tywin when he died. Interestingly there are 10 named rulers of the Westerland in the Targareyn era before Tywin, 7 of them died without seeing their grandchildren become adults. So this idea that Tywin was biding his time to publicly disinherit Tyrion and name a new Lannister succession line does not hold up to much scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 2 hours ago, The Coonster said: Camilo is right. Tywin was never going to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion. He would have found a way to push Tyrion aside. He was counting on strong grandsons, I think. This is a great point. Which grandsons? Cersei was done, Jamie wasn't planning on producing heirs and Tyrion is just out. That leaves Tommen or Myrcella as Joffrey (or his heirs) was presumably the lord of the Stormlands. Saying the Lannister regime followed suit set forth by the Targs, Tommen would have to take up at Dragonstone until Joff had a child. The only 1 I see being available to rule the Westerlands is Myrcella. Can't imagine Tywin would be thrilled about that. As you've all said, Tywin was single minded about his heir. Insofar as Tyrion ruling the Westerlands goes, I don't think that's what he wanted so much as Tywin's approval including the opportunity to be his heir. Tywin really was stupid about his own succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Curled Finger said: This is a great point. Which grandsons? Cersei was done, Jamie wasn't planning on producing heirs and Tyrion is just out. That leaves Tommen or Myrcella as Joffrey (or his heirs) was presumably the lord of the Stormlands. Saying the Lannister regime followed suit set forth by the Targs, Tommen would have to take up at Dragonstone until Joff had a child. The only 1 I see being available to rule the Westerlands is Myrcella. Can't imagine Tywin would be thrilled about that. As you've all said, Tywin was single minded about his heir. Insofar as Tyrion ruling the Westerlands goes, I don't think that's what he wanted so much as Tywin's approval including the opportunity to be his heir. Tywin really was stupid about his own succession. Why would he not be pleased about Myrcella ruling? And there are other Lannister heirs after Myrcella. House Lannister, according to Cat, were a "damnably large and fertile house." House Lannister was not stuck for heir options, it just so happens that Tywin preferred his oldest son to be his heir, the son he groomed for 15 years until Aerys snatched him away. However people really seem to not understand that preferring one option over all others, does not mean that all other options are ruled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Gogh Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 On 9/5/2020 at 9:02 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said: What options were open to Randyll and Tywin to prevent a son they saw as unfit heirs from inheriting their titles? Short of doing what Randyll did. What was Tywin planning to do with Tyrion if he could not get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard? Force him to join the watch. Wait for Tyrion to die of an STD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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