Unfit Heir

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/5/2020 at 2:11 PM, 867-5309 said:

That's what the wall is for.

There are multiple celibate orders, including the Faith and the Citadel. The latter was rejected by Tywin & Randyll despite their sons' suitability just to be dicks.

On 9/5/2020 at 6:58 PM, Curled Finger said:

Tywin really was stupid about his own succession.

If Viserys was stupid for marrying again and creating a surplus of heirs, Tywin makes the opposite error of NOT marrying again when he's got a shortage (of suitable ones, in his own view). Randyll could get rid of Sam because he had an acceptable heir to take his place, but Tywin doesn't.

[Bernie Mac]

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There are multiple celibate orders, including the Faith and the Citadel. The latter was rejected by Tywin & Randyll despite their sons' suitability just to be dicks.

Since when did Tywin reject the Citadel and the Faith for Tyrion?

And it's been pretty well documented that training in either order does not remove someone from the succession line. Even becoming a Maester does not seem to be a guarantee of disinheritance.

I'm not saying that is the reason Tarly did now allow Sam to join, but just pointing out a common misconception in these discussions. Multiple characters have trained at the Citadel, gained multiple rings, yet were still eligible to inherit.

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If Viserys was stupid for marrying again and creating a surplus of heirs, Tywin makes the opposite error of NOT marrying again when he's got a shortage (of suitable ones, in his own view). Randyll could get rid of Sam because he had an acceptable heir to take his place, but Tywin doesn't.

Again, another huge misconception in the fandom. Tywin has many heirs. Heirs are not exclusive to his own children, they are anyone who is off his blood.

Jon Arryn had no problem with his nephew and later a distant cousin being his heir. These Houses have survived for thousands of years, not every successr is going to be the son of a Lord.

[Daena the Defiant]

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There are multiple celibate orders, including the Faith and the Citadel. The latter was rejected by Tywin & Randyll despite their sons' suitability just to be dicks.

If Viserys was stupid for marrying again and creating a surplus of heirs, Tywin makes the opposite error of NOT marrying again when he's got a shortage (of suitable ones, in his own view). Randyll could get rid of Sam because he had an acceptable heir to take his place, but Tywin doesn't.

But did Tywin have a shortage of heirs?   The Lannisters defied precedent by having Cersei's children "cross-branded" as Lannisters and Baratheons.  They used the Lannister cloak at the royal wedding, for example, and Joffrey's arms displayed the lion and the stag (unknown if the personal arms for Tommen and Myrcella were similar, but likely) . Yes, Joffrey was supposed to be king, but Tywin as a royal prince *and* a future Lord of the Rock would add prestige to the line.   

Regardless, House Lannister had many, many potential heirs of the blood: one step out of Tywin's own progeny and you have scads of children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Lord Tytos (Tywin's father).  

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion isn't Tywin's heir, he never was. That is what ASoS makes crystal clear. Tyrion wants to be publicly acknowledged as Tywin's heir and the man makes it clear that this will never happen ... and thus also reveals it never happened in the past.

Yes, technically, Jaime joining the KG should have made Tyrion the heir but he never was.

If Tywin died, Tyrion could try to push a claim to the Rock and the Westerlands, but he wouldn't do that from the strong position of a groomed and acknowledged heir. Tywin made it very clear that the dwarf wasn't his heir, and Tyrion has no standing or influence with any noble house in the Westerlands to challenge the image spread by Tywin.

In such a scenario, the Crown would be called upon to settle the succession of Lord Tywin considering Tyrion's family was running the Crown. And Cersei would either make Jaime the next Lord of Casterly Rock, award the lordship to herself, or, perhaps the most likely scenario, grant it to her younger son, Prince Tommen. This is also what Robert would have done back while he was still alive.

Either of that options should get more support in the West than the Tyrion travesty idea ... even if there were people in the West who liked Tyrion - which I'm not sure there are - then most of them should be afraid as hell that the rule of a Lord Tyrion would mean that there would only be dwarf lords now ruling the Rock. This is not something any of them would want.

And technically, you can push aside an elder son for a number of reasons ... just look at Prince Duncan. We can also be sure that Brandon the Broken would never be accepted as Lord of Winterfell by the Northmen considering how the Northmen visiting Winterfell viewed the cripple when he was Robb's presumptive heir and the Stark at Winterfell. There are things that make one so unsuited to be a lord that the people simply won't accept you. And we also see that with Manderly only searching for Rickon while completely ignoring Bran ... he doesn't want to know where he is because he doesn't view him as his liege lord.

Tarly didn't have to force Sam to take the black ... especially in light of his meek personality. He wanted him gone from his sight and he wanted to ensure that he could not be used as a pawn against Dickon later in life (not that Sam would have ever had any success in any such endeavor). But he still wanted to rule his life. He ensured he would not become a maester because he felt this was an unworthy calling for a Tarly, and one assumes that is also the reason why he did not give Sam to the Faith. Instead, he wanted his son to die honorably doing something martial as a man of the Night's Watch. That way he killed two birds with one stone.

[Bernie Mac]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion isn't Tywin's heir, he never was.

Of course he was. Let's clear things because I feel this topic, like many others, is weighed down by semantics, with many of us having a different understanding of what the word means.

Tyrion, like his siblings, like even his uncle, aunt and cousins, were Tywin's heirs.

What Tyrion was not, was his acknowledged heir. Jaime apart, it seems Tywin never had an acknowledged heir, never made a succession line that he approved of (which seems unlikely given something like that is pretty hard to get accepted once you are dead).

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That is what ASoS makes crystal clear. Tyrion wants to be publicly acknowledged as Tywin's heir and the man makes it clear that this will never happen ... and thus also reveals it never happened in the past.

But this becomes more complicated because Tywin himself, to our knowledge, has never publicly disinherited Tyrion or named anyone else other than his oldest son as his heir.

So, logically, there are only two practical reasons why Tyrion is not seen as Tywin's successor

• People still see Jaime as the heir. The general public simply don't care as much as readers do about the laws of the Kingsguard/or simply assume that the most powerful Houses will do as they please
• Tyrion being a dwarf simply rules him out of Lordship to many of the people of Westeros. This being a hugely ignorant, ableist society, Tyrion ruling is just seen as a bizarre punchline

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Yes, technically, Jaime joining the KG should have made Tyrion the heir but he never was.

If Tywin died, Tyrion could try to push a claim to the Rock and the Westerlands, but he wouldn't do that from the strong position of a groomed and acknowledged heir. Tywin made it very clear that the dwarf wasn't his heir, and Tyrion has no standing or influence with any noble house in the Westerlands to challenge the image spread by Tywin.

While this is true, this could also have changed. Tywin himself gave Tyrion the means to change it.

Tyrion's position on the small council would have given him influence over lords of the realm. Had he had healthy children he would have had the means to build powerblocks to cement his position.

Had Joffrey never been murdered it would have been within Tyrion's capabilities to secure greater influence and standing within the realm, Westerlands included.

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In such a scenario, the Crown would be called upon to settle the succession of Lord Tywin considering Tyrion's family was running the Crown. And Cersei would either make Jaime the next Lord of Casterly Rock, award the lordship to herself, or, perhaps the most likely scenario, grant it to her younger son, Prince Tommen. This is also what Robert would have done back while he was still alive.

I agree with that.

Tyrion was an idiot who could not play the game when his own family was involved. We will never know if it would have changed their relationship, but he could have done what Littlefinger and other lords have done for every living royal family, act like the sun shone out of their asses.

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Either of that options should get more support in the West than the Tyrion travesty idea ... even if there were people in the West who liked Tyrion - which I'm not sure there are - then most of them should be afraid as hell that the rule of a Lord Tyrion would mean that there would only be dwarf lords now ruling the Rock. This is not something any of them would want.

Yeah, I tend to agree with that, but with the proviso that Tyrion never tried to get the support he would have needed. Tyrion seeking his father's acknowledgement as heir is just as delusional as Stannis thinking the realm would call for him to be king when Joffrey died.

The king took off his crown and placed it on the table. "Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."

"They will not," said Melisandre. "Joffrey has a brother."

"Tommen." The king said the name grudgingly.

 

Obviously it is unfair for Tyrion, that no other male heir would have to work to gain the support of others to secure what he believed was his, but the fact that he never tried reflects badly on Tyrion's intelligence (not sure if that is the right word, maybe a lack of self awareness is more apt).

 

 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Tarly didn't have to force Sam to take the black ... especially in light of his meek personality.

Technically he did not. Sam had not said his vows, his teacher did not even want to allow him to pass the 'Watch training' to allow him to say his words.

Sam was not a criminal, had not sworn anything to the Watch. As an educated noble he could have made a life in a castle or town, making a decent life for himself. The fact that he chose a lifetime of servitude from a place that was guaranteeing him shelter and 3 square meals a day (or however many they serve) says exactly why Sam was an awful choice to be a Lord. Accepting such a fate because it was easier than trying is pretty pathetic.

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He wanted him gone from his sight and he wanted to ensure that he could not be used as a pawn against Dickon later in life (not that Sam would have ever had any success in any such endeavor). But he still wanted to rule his life. He ensured he would not become a maester because he felt this was an unworthy calling for a Tarly, and one assumes that is also the reason why he did not give Sam to the Faith.

 I genuinely think, though it can not be proved, that Tarly did not think the boy who constantly gave up, who cried over blood and fainted when chickens were killed, did not have what it took to become a Maester.

Tarly snr says that he did not want any son of his serving someone, and that may be a reason, maybe even the primary reason, but I also feel he had no confidence in Sam becoming a Maester and instead he'd be an heir in waiting at Oldtown instead of Horn Hill.

 

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Instead, he wanted his son to die honorably doing something martial as a man of the Night's Watch. That way he killed two birds with one stone.

I don't know if that is true. I don't think the perception of people outside of the North that the Watch is a death sentence and I find it equally hard to believe that Tarly snr thought Sam would be serving on the frontlines against the wildlings. He'd have been a steward or a builder, he'd never have been a ranger.

It is entirely possible that Tarly sought his son's death, but I don't think we have enough evidence on his character to say one way or the other. A more malicious person would never have allowed Sam to stop training

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

Personally speaking, if Tarly was as cruel as the fandom like to paint him out to be, he'd have never allowed Sam to give up, had the Master of Arms continuing to make his life a misery. Instead he gives up on him and allows him to do as he pleased until he came of age.

 

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he was. Let's clear things because I feel this topic, like many others, is weighed down by semantics, with many of us having a different understanding of what the word means.

Tyrion, like his siblings, like even his uncle, aunt and cousins, were Tywin's heirs.

Oh, heirs in the general sense that they were all Lannisters, of course. They all do have claims by virtue of that. But Tyrion was never Lord Tywin's heir in the sense Rhaegar was Aerys', Robb Ned's, Tywin Tytos', or Brandon Rickard's heir.

Those men were all formally installed as heirs and subsequently treated and groomed to eventually fulfill the roles of lord/king. This was never the case for Tyrion.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But this becomes more complicated because Tywin himself, to our knowledge, has never publicly disinherited Tyrion or named anyone else other than his oldest son as his heir.

Yes, Tywin sort of had no heir ... or rather, he never acknowledged that Jaime should no longer be his heir. He continued to view him as such and also seemed to communicate that to his people. And others seemed to view it like that, too, e.g. Ned when he assumes Jaime would eventually inherit the Wardenship of the West from Lord Tywin.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

So, logically, there are only two practical reasons why Tyrion is not seen as Tywin's successor

• People still see Jaime as the heir. The general public simply don't care as much as readers do about the laws of the Kingsguard/or simply assume that the most powerful Houses will do as they please
• Tyrion being a dwarf simply rules him out of Lordship to many of the people of Westeros. This being a hugely ignorant, ableist society, Tyrion ruling is just seen as a bizarre punchline

I think there is a third option - that it is not actually clear who is Lord Tywin's heir. Which is why the succession would be unclear if Tywin had predeceased Joffrey or Robert.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

While this is true, this could also have changed. Tywin himself gave Tyrion the means to change it.

Tyrion's position on the small council would have given him influence over lords of the realm. Had he had healthy children he would have had the means to build powerblocks to cement his position.

Well, but not really with the Westermen, no? An heir/future lord has to be seen back at home, not at court. Tyrion's Stark marriage ensured people would view him as a (future) Lord of Winterfell, not as the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

To actually have standing with his own family and their bannermen Tyrion would have to marry a Lannister cousin of influence or a the daughter/sister of a powerful Lord of the Westerlands (a Marbrand, Lefford, or Crakehall, say).

The idea that lords from another region could have sway in succession dispute in the West is unlikely.

Also, Tyrion being Tywin's lackey as Master of Coin under him as Hand ensured the man could not really establish anything independent of Tywin there. Even more so considering the queen and the king weren't exactly Tyrion's buddies, either.

Best outcome for Tyrion would be that Joffrey/Tommen/Cersei would allow Tyrion to resign and move with his Stark wife to Winterfell to hold the North for them after Tywin's death.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion was an idiot who could not play the game when his own family was involved. We will never know if it would have changed their relationship, but he could have done what Littlefinger and other lords have done for every living royal family, act like the sun shone out of their asses.

That was very difficult considering what he was and how little anyone cared whether some ugly dwarf sung their praises or not. Tyrion becomes the Imp, the man who mocks others, because that's the only thing he can do to get noted. If he had been able to win the love of his father or sister by singing their praises he would have done that a long time ago.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, I tend to agree with that, but with the proviso that Tyrion never tried to get the support he would have needed. Tyrion seeking his father's acknowledgement as heir is just as delusional as Stannis thinking the realm would call for him to be king when Joffrey died.

But it is that what he wants. He wants that his father acknowledges his qualities and that he finally loves and respects him for who and what he is. Casterly Rock would be a proper expression for that love/respect.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Obviously it is unfair for Tyrion, that no other male heir would have to work to gain the support of others to secure what he believed was his, but the fact that he never tried reflects badly on Tyrion's intelligence (not sure if that is the right word, maybe a lack of self awareness is more apt).

Actually, I think Tyrion understands very well what he is ... a dwarf whose only advantage in life is that he is Lord Tywin's son. Tyrion understands very well that he is nothing if he is not Tywin's son. He could never hope to establish an independent power base ... even if his father weren't keeping him firmly under his thumb.

Granted, there is a problem there, considering George never properly fleshed out Robert's reign in detail. As brother-in-law to the king Tyrion should actually have the same rank as his father, he should have been able to establish a coterie of followers and hangers-on searching him out simply because he would provide access to both the king and queen. Tyrion liking Robert could have resulted in him gaining incomes and allowances (and perhaps even lordships) granted to him by Robert. Robert could have given him a seat on the council. And so on.

But there is none of that, so Tyrion just is a nobody, the son of a powerful father with no money or influence or power of his own.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Technically he did not. Sam had not said his vows, his teacher did not even want to allow him to pass the 'Watch training' to allow him to say his words.

Sam was not a criminal, had not sworn anything to the Watch. As an educated noble he could have made a life in a castle or town, making a decent life for himself. The fact that he chose a lifetime of servitude from a place that was guaranteeing him shelter and 3 square meals a day (or however many they serve) says exactly why Sam was an awful choice to be a Lord. Accepting such a fate because it was easier than trying is pretty pathetic.

 

Oh, I meant I don't think for a moment that Randyll had to get Sam out of the way to ensure that Dickon could succeed him. There would have been other ways there, the easiest Sam publicly swearing and and announcing that he would abdicate as heir of Horn Hill in favor of his younger brother Dickon ... sort of how Prince Duncan stepped down as Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne in favor of Jaehaerys.

I think Tarly wanted his son out of his sight, too, not just out of the way of Dickon. And he wanted that done by means of the Wall and not by means of the Faith or the Citadel (where the boy might have ended up at some prestigious castle in the Reach considering his high birth).

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I genuinely think, though it can not be proved, that Tarly did not think the boy who constantly gave up, who cried over blood and fainted when chickens were killed, did not have what it took to become a Maester.

That would be odd considering Tarly seemed to genuinely think that it was beneath the martial Tarlys to serve minor lords. I don't think that's representative for all the Tarlys but it was Randyll's view.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tarly snr says that he did not want any son of his serving someone, and that may be a reason, maybe even the primary reason, but I also feel he had no confidence in Sam becoming a Maester and instead he'd be an heir in waiting at Oldtown instead of Horn Hill.

There might be something to that, but I doubt that Tarly knows much how you become a maester. He moves his lips when he reads, no? Which is George's way to send us the message that the man is a moron of sorts ;-).

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't know if that is true. I don't think the perception of people outside of the North that the Watch is a death sentence and I find it equally hard to believe that Tarly snr thought Sam would be serving on the frontlines against the wildlings. He'd have been a steward or a builder, he'd never have been a ranger.

Oh, I didn't mean die soon ... just that it would be a martial life he would have to live, giving him the chance to die with a sword in hand like a Tarly should. All black brothers are trained at arms and supposed to fight, so this definitely would be a nobler calling than the Citadel or the Faith ... in Tarly's mind, at least.

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is entirely possible that Tarly sought his son's death, but I don't think we have enough evidence on his character to say one way or the other. A more malicious person would never have allowed Sam to stop training

No, I don't think either, that Tarly wanted Sam dead. He could have accomplished that. I even think that the hunting party thing was more a show to terrorize the boy. I don't think he would have killed him.

But I think he started to loathe Sam so much that he could no longer suffer him in his castle and lands. That's why he sent him to the Wall.

 

[Bernie Mac]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, heirs in the general sense that they were all Lannisters, of course. They all do have claims by virtue of that. But Tyrion was never Lord Tywin's heir in the sense Rhaegar was Aerys', Robb Ned's, Tywin Tytos', or Brandon Rickard's heir.

Those men were all formally installed as heirs and subsequently treated and groomed to eventually fulfill the roles of lord/king. This was never the case for Tyrion.

Sure, but I don't think that means much. I think it pretty obvious that Robin never installed Harry as his heir, yet the Vale still treats him as such.

Cersei, like Tyrion, was also never officially named heir, yet she seems to had no trouble inheriting after Tywin's death.

I'm just not seeing the significance of being 'formally' installed by the current heir, it seems to not really matter to the realm.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, Tywin sort of had no heir ... or rather, he never acknowledged that Jaime should no longer be his heir. He continued to view him as such and also seemed to communicate that to his people. And others seemed to view it like that, too, e.g. Ned when he assumes Jaime would eventually inherit the Wardenship of the West from Lord Tywin.

Wardenship and Lordship are different titles. Women, children and, presumably, dwarfs, are not really seen as appropriate for military positions of that magnitude. 

I think it safe to say there was not much discourse between Ned and Tywin.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think there is a third option - that it is not actually clear who is Lord Tywin's heir. Which is why the succession would be unclear if Tywin had predeceased Joffrey or Robert.

Isn't that a different point, or more a sub point to each of them.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, but not really with the Westermen, no? An heir/future lord has to be seen back at home, not at court. Tyrion's Stark marriage ensured people would view him as a (future) Lord of Winterfell, not as the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

Tyrion was put in charge of Addam, the heir of Ashemark, Harrys Swyft and Flement Brax, another heir, during ASOS.

Tyrion was given a leadership role over Westerland men, and, like Littlefinger, would have been able to get the influence and loyalty by the offices he could hand out to ancillary family members of Westerland houses. 

Tyrion was given the keys to make himself far more influential and important than what he was.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

To actually have standing with his own family and their bannermen Tyrion would have to marry a Lannister cousin of influence or a the daughter/sister of a powerful Lord of the Westerlands (a Marbrand, Lefford, or Crakehall, say).

That is not the only way. And even then, producing a brood of healthy children with Sansa would give him that option to make such alliances.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that lords from another region could have sway in succession dispute in the West is unlikely.

Not really. This is pretty common throughout history. Other regions have been able to influence the monarchy of the British crown for many centuries.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, Tyrion being Tywin's lackey as Master of Coin under him as Hand ensured the man could not really establish anything independent of Tywin there. Even more so considering the queen and the king weren't exactly Tyrion's buddies, either.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. Why would Tywin give him the role in the first place if there was no intention of him being able to do his job?

No one else would have wanted Tyrion to be Hand or a place on the Small Council and we see no evidence of Tywin stepping on Tyrion's toes in either position.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Best outcome for Tyrion would be that Joffrey/Tommen/Cersei would allow Tyrion to resign and move with his Stark wife to Winterfell to hold the North for them after Tywin's death.

Heavily disagree.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That was very difficult considering what he was and how little anyone cared whether some ugly dwarf sung their praises or not. Tyrion becomes the Imp, the man who mocks others, because that's the only thing he can do to get noted. If he had been able to win the love of his father or sister by singing their praises he would have done that a long time ago.

Again, heavily disagree.

Your logic comes down to 'why even try'. Failure is a self-fulfilling prophecy with that kind of attitude.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is that what he wants. He wants that his father acknowledges his qualities and that he finally loves and respects him for who and what he is. Casterly Rock would be a proper expression for that love/respect.

Tywin has little control over what the realm does after he is dead.

Robert himself knew that Joffrey becoming King was unavoidable. Either the realm viewed Tyrion as the heir or not.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, I think Tyrion understands very well what he is ... a dwarf whose only advantage in life is that he is Lord Tywin's son. Tyrion understands very well that he is nothing if he is not Tywin's son. He could never hope to establish an independent power base ... even if his father weren't keeping him firmly under his thumb.

His father was not keeping him firmly under his thumb. That is a huge misreading of the source material.

It seems Tywin will be cast as the vilain in this no matter the scenario. Allows Tyrion to be a playboy and do as he pleased and Tywin gets criticized for not showing him any responsibility, Tywin gives him responsibility and power and now it is claimed that is all to keep Tyrion under his thumb.

Tyrion, as former Hand and Master of Coin, married to the potential heiress of the North, is in a far stronger place to inherit than if Tywin did not offer him any of those positions.  Not to be condescending, but you seriously don't see that?

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Granted, there is a problem there, considering George never properly fleshed out Robert's reign in detail. As brother-in-law to the king Tyrion should actually have the same rank as his father, he should have been able to establish a coterie of followers and hangers-on searching him out simply because he would provide access to both the king and queen. Tyrion liking Robert could have resulted in him gaining incomes and allowances (and perhaps even lordships) granted to him by Robert. Robert could have given him a seat on the council. And so on.

Whose fault do you imagine that to be?

Tyrion who was happy being the fool? Robert who saw him as an Imp? Or an ambitious Tywin who had tried to get as many of his family in royal positions as possible?

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But there is none of that, so Tyrion just is a nobody, the son of a powerful father with no money or influence or power of his own.

He has money, he has influence. I think you are looking at some specific IRL examples and are applying them to Westeros, when the truth is we see little of what you are suggesting with former brothers-in-law of the King.

Now it is possible you may be right, but due to the incest (as well as Martell's already being referred to as Princes) it might not be as expected in Westeros as it had been in some real life monarchies. Fire and Blood part II may clear it up if Betha and Aelinor have any siblings.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I meant I don't think for a moment that Randyll had to get Sam out of the way to ensure that Dickon could succeed him. There would have been other ways there, the easiest Sam publicly swearing and and announcing that he would abdicate as heir of Horn Hill in favor of his younger brother Dickon ... sort of how Prince Duncan stepped down as Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne in favor of Jaehaerys.

We'll never know if that would have taken. It seems easy because we never get to see a living Duncan when his younger brother was crowned.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Tarly wanted his son out of his sight, too, not just out of the way of Dickon. And he wanted that done by means of the Wall and not by means of the Faith or the Citadel (where the boy might have ended up at some prestigious castle in the Reach considering his high birth).

Possibly. But again, the kid cried over and fainted over blood and dead chickens. The Maester role is part wartime medic, they are expected to be on the battlefield with their Lords, to help the women give birth, to deal with the sick.

Gaining chains, as we see in AFFC, is no easy matter. Sam may have spent decades as a novice.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be odd considering Tarly seemed to genuinely think that it was beneath the martial Tarlys to serve minor lords. I don't think that's representative for all the Tarlys but it was Randyll's view.

How would it be odd? These are not mutually exclusive positions, Tarly can think both. One does not rule out the other.

And Tarly's excuse makes little sense, serving as a steward on the Wall or serving a minor Lord as a Maester are hardly worlds apart.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There might be something to that, but I doubt that Tarly knows much how you become a maester. He moves his lips when he reads, no? Which is George's way to send us the message that the man is a moron of sorts ;-).

No, it is not. We've had this argument before.

He watched the sellsword read. That he could read said something all by itself. How many sellswords could boast of that? He hardly moves his lips at all, Tyrion reflected.

Connington, former Hand of the King and possibly future Hand of the King, is hardly a moron, yet he too moves his lips when he reads as did many people in the Middle Ages.

If Tarly was meant to be a moron we'd know about it. He's a pretty well respected Lord, maybe not suited to peacetime rule as a Hand, but certainly no moron in the eyes of Westeros.

 

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I didn't mean die soon ... just that it would be a martial life he would have to live, giving him the chance to die with a sword in hand like a Tarly should. All black brothers are trained at arms and supposed to fight, so this definitely would be a nobler calling than the Citadel or the Faith ... in Tarly's mind, at least.

They are not all supposed to fight. They are branched into three, Rangers, Stewards and Builders.

Before the events of the current series I think it more than possible that many Watchmen did not see battle. Bowen, who seems to have been on the Wall for quite some time, is a fish out of water in battle.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, I don't think either, that Tarly wanted Sam dead. He could have accomplished that. I even think that the hunting party thing was more a show to terrorize the boy. I don't think he would have killed him.

But I think he started to loathe Sam so much that he could no longer suffer him in his castle and lands. That's why he sent him to the Wall.

 

Yeah, I think that partly true. He was a great disappointment. But he, and his heirs, were a possible threat to Dickon and his heirs. 

[BlackLightning]

32 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure, but I don't think that means much. I think it pretty obvious that Robin never installed Harry as his heir, yet the Vale still treats him as such.

Cersei, like Tyrion, was also never officially named heir, yet she seems to had no trouble inheriting after Tywin's death.

That's because, after Joffrey's death and Jaime's declination, Cersei was Tywin's Plan B.

The point that @Lord Varys is making (aka the point, you're missing) is that Tyrion was not even Plan D.

No one wants Tyrion to be the Lord of anything. Well, if you want to make Tyrion Lord of Castamere or Tarbeck Hall, then fine...but nah. Not Winterfell, not Casterly Rock.

And it's not even about Tyrion's dwarfism. It's his ugliness and his mischievousness. If Tyrion had the personality of Ned Stark, Doran Martell or even Stannis Baratheon, then Tywin probably wouldn't have had so much of an issue with Tyrion inheriting the Rock.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

That's because, after Joffrey's death and Jaime's declination, Cersei was Tywin's Plan B.

She was not a plan b, she was the heir as she was next in line once both her brothers were ruled out.

We don't see any acknowledgment for Cersei from Tywin, like Tyrion asked for himself.

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

The point that @Lord Varys is making (aka the point, you're missing) is that Tyrion was not even Plan D.

What plan? Tywin had done no official succession line, he had not made any public announcements and, as far as we know, made no clandestine meetings with the Westerland lords about who his successor should be.

I'm not missing any point, I'm just not jumping to conclusions the books never suggest to the reader.

• Jaime
• Tyrion
• Cersei
• Kevan
• Lancel
• etc etc

We know the succession line because we can read a family tree, as can the other people of the realm. Jaime and Tyrion ruled themselves out with their actions, so Cersei inherited as she was next in line.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

No one wants Tyrion to be the Lord of anything. Well, if you want to make Tyrion Lord of Castamere or Tarbeck Hall, then fine...but nah. Not Winterfell, not Casterly Rock.

I agree. Never denied that.

Tywin wanted Jaime, he was his preferred choice and he was convinced he could make it happen. He had no plan b or plan c, because he had no reason to think that adult Jaime, who clearly did take his job seriously, would turn down the opportunity to control his own destiny.

But after Jaime there was no plan. He was not grooming anyone at the expense of Tyrion. Was not publicly favouring one child over the other, or putting a nephew above his own children,

What we do see is Tywin showing a pretty substantial level of trust in Tyrion's capabilities as he makes him Hand. He gives Tyrion the chance to do what all young nobles aspire to do, make a reputation for himself.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

And it's not even about Tyrion's dwarfism. It's his ugliness and his mischievousness.

It is a combination of both

• Had he not been a dwarf the infamy of Tyrion's private life would not be the burden it was
• But his own lifestyle did in part bring him down and he had 100% control over that, yet he seemed to revel in shocking people and using his name to get out of trouble

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

 

If Tyrion had the personality of Ned Stark, Doran Martell or even Stannis Baratheon, then Tywin probably wouldn't have had so much of an issue with Tyrion inheriting the Rock.

Absolutely true. Married and a few healthy heirs and he'd probably be in favor of it.

Had Tywin, Tyrion and Joffrey all lived for another decade then Tyrion had time to change how we was perceived by father, nephew ad realm. He was granted a position that could restore him somewhat in his father's eyes, he had the job that could please Joffrey while better learning to hide his disgust with his nephew could, somewhat, repair their relationship. Joffrey is Aerys mkII and by all accounts Joffrey did reward his lickspittles.

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure, but I don't think that means much. I think it pretty obvious that Robin never installed Harry as his heir, yet the Vale still treats him as such.

Harrold Hardyng was acknowledged as Jon Arryn's presumptive heir after the deaths of Elbert and Denys. Robert Arryn pushed him back but Lysa and Littlefinger kept him as presumptive heir after Jon's death. As Jeyne Arryn shows, Lord Robert certainly could pick a more obscure cousin as his heir if he was so inclined. Right now he cannot name any heirs, being a minor child, of course.

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Cersei, like Tyrion, was also never officially named heir, yet she seems to had no trouble inheriting after Tywin's death.

Cersei is the mother of the king and the Queen Regent. Nobody could challenge her succession to the Rock. It would be treason to do so, one imagines, with Tommen and Myrcella coming next in line after Cersei. Any other Lannister challenging this would be challenging the king himself.

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I'm just not seeing the significance of being 'formally' installed by the current heir, it seems to not really matter to the realm.

It matters in the sense that only acknowledge/official heirs usually have a chance to succeed without trouble. And that's not only the case for the Iron Throne but also for other successions.

But if a succession is unclear you need a powerful claimant/pretender to actually get some sort of real conflict. And with the Lannisters there is just no basis for this. Nobody would back Tyrion as things stand.

And do not that there are powerful lords without any heirs that we know of. Who is Lady Dustin's heir? Who was Renly's heir? Who was Roose's heir after Domeric died and before Ramsay was legitimized?

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Wardenship and Lordship are different titles. Women, children and, presumably, dwarfs, are not really seen as appropriate for military positions of that magnitude. 

Tyrion got military training, though, and was charged by his father to lead men in battle and did later do so at his own volition. He was also Acting Hand, also a position where you have to serve as general.

The idea the position are thought to be different for the West there - as Robert deemed them for the east - doesn't really convince me since Jaime would make as poor a Warden of the West as he would be a Warden of the East as a KG at court. A Warden should be in the lands he oversees to actually command the armies raised there at his command if it comes to that.

One actually should imagine that Robert intended to send Jaime to the Vale once Lysa had cooled down, etc. ... else that appointment would make no sense.

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I think it safe to say there was not much discourse between Ned and Tywin.

Of course not. The entire point was just to illustrate how crucial people may have shared Tywin's view as to who his heir was.

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Tyrion was put in charge of Addam, the heir of Ashemark, Harrys Swyft and Flement Brax, another heir, during ASOS.

In what capacity again?

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Tyrion was given a leadership role over Westerland men, and, like Littlefinger, would have been able to get the influence and loyalty by the offices he could hand out to ancillary family members of Westerland houses.

Perhaps this could have led somewhere ... after Tyrion got an office in ASoS. But that was about twenty years after Jaime had joined the KG. Twenty years during which Tyrion was just a joke.

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That is not the only way. And even then, producing a brood of healthy children with Sansa would give him that option to make such alliances.

I could see a son of Tyrion and Sansa succeed to the Rock if said son turned out to be a proper man and Lannister. But the problem is that the North is so far remote and Tyrion/Sansa would have their hands full with staying in charge considering how they got there. They should not have much opportunity/energy to involve themselves in the affairs of the West.

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Not really. This is pretty common throughout history. Other regions have been able to influence the monarchy of the British crown for many centuries.

We are talking Westeros. Where did that ever happen there? Did any other house involve themselves in the succession war of the Vale after the death of Lady Jeyne?

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I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. Why would Tywin give him the role in the first place if there was no intention of him being able to do his job?

It was Littlefinger's suggestion, a way to block further Tyrell infiltration of the court. Tywin actually seems to have intended to groom Tommen as his heir before Joff's death, intending to send him back to Rock to raise him there. He had no plan to give the Rock to Tyrion, Cersei as his heir was out of the question. Hence the best chance is that he would have named Tommen his heir if he had ever given up making Jaine his heir ... which is actually not very likely.

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No one else would have wanted Tyrion to be Hand or a place on the Small Council and we see no evidence of Tywin stepping on Tyrion's toes in either position.

He was just a pawn. Tyrion was never Hand, he was Acting Hand. He had no power base nor title of his own. All he accomplished at KL he accomplished with the name of his father behind him. His sole advantage was that Tywin had sent him. That is why Cersei even accepted him.

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Your logic comes down to 'why even try'. Failure is a self-fulfilling prophecy with that kind of attitude.

Tyrion is a miserable, insecure person. He never actually thought about playing any kind of game until his father literally forced him to be Acting Hand.

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Tywin has little control over what the realm does after he is dead.

Of course, but nothing indicates he would have allowed Tyrion to build a power base of his own, independent from Tywin, while he was still alive.

And that means Tyrion wouldn't have had the means to claim the West after his father's death unless there was no other heir around. While we still have Cersei around and one of her children on the throne the Rock would go to them.

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Robert himself knew that Joffrey becoming King was unavoidable. Either the realm viewed Tyrion as the heir or not.

And it didn't, in Tyrion's case. Nobody ever refers to Tyrion as Tywin's heir in public, not even Tyrion himself ... he doesn't even silently imagines him to be the heir to Casterly Rock or imagines how it would be when his father is dead and he succeeded him, ruling the West in his own right.

Tyrion is just Tywin's son, not Tywin's heir.

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His father was not keeping him firmly under his thumb. That is a huge misreading of the source material.

He did, to our knowledge, up until AGoT. And he took him back under his thumb when he took the court and government into his hands and ruled every aspect of Tyrion's life again, right down to who he was allowed/supposed to fuck.

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Tyrion, as former Hand and Master of Coin, married to the potential heiress of the North, is in a far stronger place to inherit than if Tywin did not offer him any of those positions.  Not to be condescending, but you seriously don't see that?

In Westeros lordships are not combined ... meaning that Tyrion as Lord of Winterfell would mean he cannot also be Lord of Casterly Rock. This was a way to get rid of him and secure the North, not a way to strengthen Tyrion's position.

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He has money, he has influence. I think you are looking at some specific IRL examples and are applying them to Westeros, when the truth is we see little of what you are suggesting with former brothers-in-law of the King.

Tyrion has no incomes of his own independent of Tywin. He seems to have some sort of allowance, but no independent incomes. And people know that he has no money of his own ... something he points out always when he uses his father's name rather than his own.

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Now it is possible you may be right, but due to the incest (as well as Martell's already being referred to as Princes) it might not be as expected in Westeros as it had been in some real life monarchies. Fire and Blood part II may clear it up if Betha and Aelinor have any siblings.

I meant that George sort of dropped the ball having Tyrion as a nobody while Robert's brothers are great lords.

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We'll never know if that would have taken. It seems easy because we never get to see a living Duncan when his younger brother was crowned.

We know that Duncan was not the heir but Jaehaerys was. And we know that people accepted this, wanted this even, and the royal family had long made their peace with the new situation, Jenny being welcome at court, etc.

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Possibly. But again, the kid cried over and fainted over blood and dead chickens. The Maester role is part wartime medic, they are expected to be on the battlefield with their Lords, to help the women give birth, to deal with the sick.

Sure, but that would entail that Randyll gave a damn about what it means to be a maester. And it would be kind of weird for him to torture his son the way he did - having him wear a literal chain in a dungeon rather than, you know, tell him that he was too weak to become a maester.

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And Tarly's excuse makes little sense, serving as a steward on the Wall or serving a minor Lord as a Maester are hardly worlds apart.

No, it is not. We've had this argument before.

He watched the sellsword read. That he could read said something all by itself. How many sellswords could boast of that? He hardly moves his lips at all, Tyrion reflected.

Connington, former Hand of the King and possibly future Hand of the King, is hardly a moron, yet he too moves his lips when he reads as did many people in the Middle Ages.

If Tarly was meant to be a moron we'd know about it. He's a pretty well respected Lord, maybe not suited to peacetime rule as a Hand, but certainly no moron in the eyes of Westeros.

Not a moron as such, but not a well-read, well-educated man. There is a difference there. Jon isn't the smartest of men, either.

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They are not all supposed to fight. They are branched into three, Rangers, Stewards and Builders.

They are, that is made clear. All brothers train at arms, all are expected to fight if the Wall is attacked. There are better warriors and lesser warriors, but nobody is expected to not fight at the Wall. They are a military order.

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Yeah, I think that partly true. He was a great disappointment. But he, and his heirs, were a possible threat to Dickon and his heirs. 

A threat Randyll could have neutralized in another way if he wanted to. Castration also springs to mind (considered by Aegon II for his nephew). But he wanted to go with the Wall for Sam. As I said, I think this has to do with him having some last hope that Sam would become a manly man up there, and live and die like a proper Tarly. It was two birds with one stone: Way free for Dickon and a way for Sam to be a proper Tarly.

[FictionIsntReal]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And it's been pretty well documented that training in either order does not remove someone from the succession line. Even becoming a Maester does not seem to be a guarantee of disinheritance.

Has any Maester ever inherited anything?

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I'm not saying that is the reason Tarly did now allow Sam to join, but just pointing out a common misconception in these discussions. Multiple characters have trained at the Citadel, gained multiple rings, yet were still eligible to inherit.

Oh, one can study and gain a few rings without actually taking a maester's oath. There's a longer time between the start of training and the swearing of vows than in the Night's Watch, but the vows still involve disavowing your house. At least Night's Watchmen get to keep their surnames!

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Again, another huge misconception in the fandom. Tywin has many heirs. Heirs are not exclusive to his own children, they are anyone who is off his blood.

Inheritance works smoother when a direct descendant is available.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is also what Robert would have done back while he was still alive.

Given the state of their marriage when the books pick up, he might have done something to spite her. Tyrion recalls liking Robert in no small part due to Cersei's enmity, so it might be politically sensible for Robert to appoint him, not that Robert would always do the sensible thing. Jaime supporting Tyrion might nudge him the other way, though not enough to permit Jaime himself to inherit.

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most of them should be afraid as hell that the rule of a Lord Tyrion would mean that there would only be dwarf lords now ruling the Rock

How many dwarves are there?

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We can also be sure that Brandon the Broken would never be accepted as Lord of Winterfell by the Northmen considering how the Northmen visiting Winterfell viewed the cripple when he was Robb's presumptive heir and the Stark at Winterfell

I wouldn't be quite so sure. Doran Martell's gout makes him immobile, and Wyman Manderly is too fat for a horse, but they are still accepted as lords. Both men were once younger and more physically fit, but Bran could grow more respected as he matures with age. Willas Tyrell is only an heir rather than lord, but his crippled leg isn't a bar against him inheriting, and Mace regards him as capable of managing the Reach while his father is in KL.

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And we also see that with Manderly only searching for Rickon while completely ignoring Bran ... he doesn't want to know where he is because he doesn't view him as his liege lord.

Manderly has Wex, and is one of the few people to know about Rickon's whereabouts. You know the expression about the worth of a bird or fish in the hand vs the bush/sea. Robb Stark assumes Arya is dead in the absence of other information about her, and it's not because of her unsuitability as heir.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Given the state of their marriage when the books pick up, he might have done something to spite her. Tyrion recalls liking Robert in no small part due to Cersei's enmity, so it might be politically sensible for Robert to appoint him, not that Robert would always do the sensible thing. Jaime supporting Tyrion might nudge him the other way, though not enough to permit Jaime himself to inherit.

Robert needs money considering that he is beggaring the Crown. If his wife or child was Lord of Casterly Rock he would not only get rid of the debts he owes to the Lannisters, he could also use the gold of Casterly Rock waste as much money as he wants.

He has no reason to allow the Rock to go to Tyrion.

Jaime himself could also work if he were limiting the exception to him being a lord but keeping the vows intact insofar as marriage is concerned. That way it is ensured that the Rock would eventually pass to Cersei and her children.

6 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How many dwarves are there?

Tyrion might produce dwarf offspring.

6 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I wouldn't be quite so sure. Doran Martell's gout makes him immobile, and Wyman Manderly is too fat for a horse, but they are still accepted as lords. Both men were once younger and more physically fit, but Bran could grow more respected as he matures with age. Willas Tyrell is only an heir rather than lord, but his crippled leg isn't a bar against him inheriting, and Mace regards him as capable of managing the Reach while his father is in KL.

As you say, Doran and Wyman were once healthy men. And the North is a harsh place where men are supposed to lead personally. People there don't like to bend the knee to crippled children. Doesn't mean Robb or Ned couldn't have forced the North to accept Bran as heir ... if they had had the time to groom him.

But Tywin never even tried to do that with Tyrion for the West. Instead he treated the boy as an unwanted son. Still as a Lannister of Casterly Rock, yes, but not as his heir. And people know that. I mean, if anyone viewed Tyrion as Tywin's heir then no lord whatsoever would have rejected a match involving Tyrion and his daughter/sister. But the Tullys, Royces, Hightowers, and even the Florents with shamed Delena spurned such matches. That makes no sense if we assume they viewed Tyrion as the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

Willas Tyrell isn't all that crippled. He has a limp and needs a cane to walk, he is not wheelchair-bound nor unable to move/feel his legs. But unlike out other examples he is groomed to rule and people accept that ... unlike with either Tyrion or Bran.

6 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Manderly has Wex, and is one of the few people to know about Rickon's whereabouts. You know the expression about the worth of a bird or fish in the hand vs the bush/sea. Robb Stark assumes Arya is dead in the absence of other information about her, and it's not because of her unsuitability as heir.

Wyman made it clear to us that he views Rickon as his liege lord when he told Davos to fetch him. That means he doesn't view Bran as his liege lord ... despite the fact that he knows Bran survived Winterfell, too.

[BlackLightning]

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

She was not a plan b, she was the heir as she was next in line once both her brothers were ruled out.

We don't see any acknowledgment for Cersei from Tywin, like Tyrion asked for himself.

This is yet another reason why we should've gotten a Cersei POV in A Storm of Swords

Sure, you'd be effectively replacing Catelyn's POV with Cersei's but it would really work. We only get a chance to see Cersei after the murder of her own son and father shakes her to the core.

The examples that @Lord Varys points out just proves that the issue with Tyrion's fitness as the heir to Casterly Rock has nothing to do with his physical disabilities but it has more to do with his personality and his goals.

If there was ever the slightest chance in the seven hells that Tywin would allow Tyrion to succeed him as the Lord of Casterly Rock, it was irrevocably destroyed when Tyrion threatened Tommen's life not once but twice. To make matters worse, one of those two times was on account of a foreign-born prostitute. And that's not even going so far as to mention the fact that Tyrion would physically discipline Joffrey -- in front of his own guard -- without the consent or knowledge of the boy's parents.

And giving Tyrion Winterfell is like giving someone a sword without a hilt or a car without an functional engine. Honestly...the Northmen would rather have crippled Bran Stark rule over them than a healthy Tyrion Lannister.

[BlackLightning]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert needs money considering that he is beggaring the Crown. If his wife or child was Lord of Casterly Rock he would not only get rid of the debts he owes to the Lannisters, he could also use the gold of Casterly Rock waste as much money as he wants.

He has no reason to allow the Rock to go to Tyrion.

Jaime himself could also work if he were limiting the exception to him being a lord but keeping the vows intact insofar as marriage is concerned. That way it is ensured that the Rock would eventually pass to Cersei and her children.

Tyrion might produce dwarf offspring.

As you say, Doran and Wyman were once healthy men. And the North is a harsh place where men are supposed to lead personally. People there don't like to bend the knee to crippled children. Doesn't mean Robb or Ned couldn't have forced the North to accept Bran as heir ... if they had had the time to groom him.

But Tywin never even tried to do that with Tyrion for the West. Instead he treated the boy as an unwanted son. Still as a Lannister of Casterly Rock, yes, but not as his heir. And people know that. I mean, if anyone viewed Tyrion as Tywin's heir then no lord whatsoever would have rejected a match involving Tyrion and his daughter/sister. But the Tullys, Royces, Hightowers, and even the Florents with shamed Delena spurned such matches. That makes no sense if we assume they viewed Tyrion as the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

Willas Tyrell isn't all that crippled. He has a limp and needs a cane to walk, he is not wheelchair-bound nor unable to move/feel his legs. But unlike out other examples he is groomed to rule and people accept that ... unlike with either Tyrion or Bran.

Wyman made it clear to us that he views Rickon as his liege lord when he told Davos to fetch him. That means he doesn't view Bran as his liege lord ... despite the fact that he knows Bran survived Winterfell, too.

Not necessarily.

A bird in the hand is worth two birds in the bush. And two birds in the bush is worth more than a dozen on the other side of the mountains.

In other words, Wyman views Rickon as his liege lord because he knows where Rickon is. Not only does he know where Rickon is, he knows that Rickon's continued survival is very likely. In regards to Bran, Wyman doesn't have the slightest clue where Bran could be nor does he have any assurances that Bran is still alive. And frankly, given Bran's condition, his continued survival is unlikely in times o duress. All the more so if Wyman had learned that Bran went beyond the Wall.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

And giving Tyrion Winterfell is like giving someone a sword without a hilt or a car without an functional engine. Honestly...the Northmen would rather have crippled Bran Stark rule over them than a healthy Tyrion Lannister.

Yeah, the idea there is that Tywin would expect Tyrion to have his hands full staying alive/in charge in the North, being dependent on the Crown in the long run when they face the inevitable rebellions are Lannister-run regime at Winterfell would have to deal with. Tyrion would never be in the position to call upon the Northmen to interfere on his behalf in a succession struggle for Casterly Rock.

51 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Not necessarily.

A bird in the hand is worth two birds in the bush. And two birds in the bush is worth more than a dozen on the other side of the mountains.

In other words, Wyman views Rickon as his liege lord because he knows where Rickon is. Not only does he know where Rickon is, he knows that Rickon's continued survival is very likely. In regards to Bran, Wyman doesn't have the slightest clue where Bran could be nor does he have any assurances that Bran is still alive. And frankly, given Bran's condition, his continued survival is unlikely in times o duress. All the more so if Wyman had learned that Bran went beyond the Wall.

Sure, I understand why Wyman would look for Rickon first and foremost, knowing where he is. But having him would still not make him his liege lord. That would and should be Brandon Stark while he is still alive. But he isn't in Lord Wyman's mind.

This is significant. As is the fact that he doesn't seem to make attempts to look for/find Bran.

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Has any Maester ever inherited anything?

Not that we know of, though Aemon seems to have been convinced that being a Maester was not enough to prevent him becoming King.

But we do know of multiple acolytes who became Lords despite training at the Citadel to become Maesters

• Albin Massey was the 3rd son of his father, but due to the early death of his father and brothers he was recalled from the Citadel and became the Lord of Stonedance
• Lyonel Strong had earned 6 links for his chain while he studied at the Citadel, before he became a Lord
• Oberyn Martell had also earned 6 links of his Chain before he became board and left
• Hothor Umber was sent to the Citadel to become a Maester, he left and later married.

It is actually unclear if Maesters can quit on their own accord, or if that rules them out of the succession line when they do.

The Watch and Citadel are different institutions, the idea that the same laws for one apply to the other is not necessarily true.

 

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Oh, one can study and gain a few rings without actually taking a maester's oath.

Yes. No one becomes a Maester until the complete their chain. They don't just turn up and become Maesters.

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

There's a longer time between the start of training and the swearing of vows than in the Night's Watch, but the vows still involve disavowing your house. At least Night's Watchmen get to keep their surnames!

Sure, though as I say, we have no idea what the 'laws' state for Maesters who quit their profession.

Regardless, the hypothetical worry for Tarly would be that Sam would spend years, maybe decades, failing to become a Maester as Sam's personality did not seem like it could deal with pressure.

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Inheritance works smoother when a direct descendant is available.

Sure. I'm not sure what you point here is as your original comment, and my reply to it, had nothing to do with the smoothness of the next heir.

Plus, not that smoother. We see plenty of indirect descendants smoothly taking power.

There is no real suggestion in the books that brothers and nephews have a hard time inheriting when a Lord with no living/eligible children, grandchildren dies.

 

[Bernie Mac]

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This is yet another reason why we should've gotten a Cersei POV in A Storm of Swords

Sure, you'd be effectively replacing Catelyn's POV with Cersei's but it would really work. We only get a chance to see Cersei after the murder of her own son and father shakes her to the core.

Very much agree that seeing the mind of a mentally competent Cersei would have been decent, though not at the expense of a Cat chapter. I love her exposition of the Riverlands and Westeros in general.

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The examples that @Lord Varys points out just proves that the issue with Tyrion's fitness as the heir to Casterly Rock has nothing to do with his physical disabilities but it has more to do with his personality and his goals.

It is a mixture of both. His personality would not be such the problem it is if he was not a dwarf and had the reputation from birth of a monster.

I agree that his personality did not help and certainly handicapped him with his family; The Hand, the Queen Mother and the new King, but I don't think that alone damaged his chances.

However we seem to be on the same page, just that I don't think Tyrion's personality did him irrevocable damage, that given a decade or two of responsibility, healthy heirs and the right amount of sycophancy towards the right people could have turned his position around. But if you were to argue that what we know of Tyrion, such a change was unlikely I'd not really be able to disagree.

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If there was ever the slightest chance in the seven hells that Tywin would allow Tyrion to succeed him as the Lord of Casterly Rock, it was irrevocably destroyed when Tyrion threatened Tommen's life not once but twice.

1000% agree.

You simply can not have a Patriarch/Matriarch of a House threatening their own family over the life of a whore. Had Tywin and Kevan found out about the threats to Lancel as well, we may have seen a more drastic punishment.

Also Tryion being unable to work with Joffrey puts Tywin's efforts of making House Lannister the closest allies to the Crown pointless. As soon as Tywin is dead Tyrion and Joffrey would be at each other's throats, making Tywin's last 20 years pointless.

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

 

To make matters worse, one of those two times was on account of a foreign-born prostitute. And that's not even going so far as to mention the fact that Tyrion would physically discipline Joffrey -- in front of his own guard -- without the consent or knowledge of the boy's parents.

True. Tyrion is just drunk with power thinking such actions would have no ramifications.

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

And giving Tyrion Winterfell is like giving someone a sword without a hilt or a car without an functional engine. Honestly...the Northmen would rather have crippled Bran Stark rule over them than a healthy Tyrion Lannister.

True, to an extent. That is the short term, Tyrion could have strengthened that bond, his heirs could have strengthened that bond.

Tyrion would be doomed to be despised by the Northmen, but his wife and children not so much. He could exert his influence through his figureheads.

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Very much agree that seeing the mind of a mentally competent Cersei would have been decent, though not at the expense of a Cat chapter. I love her exposition of the Riverlands and Westeros in general.

 

No what I meant by that is that Catelyn's POV contains only seven chapters. The inclusion of Cersei POV immediately after the Red Wedding would effectively be replacing Catelyn POV which ends at the Red Wedding.

One clocks out and the other clocks in.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is a mixture of both. His personality would not be such the problem it is if he was not a dwarf and had the reputation from birth of a monster.

I agree that his personality did not help and certainly handicapped him with his family; The Hand, the Queen Mother and the new King, but I don't think that alone damaged his chances.

However we seem to be on the same page, just that I don't think Tyrion's personality did him irrevocable damage, that given a decade or two of responsibility, healthy heirs and the right amount of sycophancy towards the right people could have turned his position around. But if you were to argue that what we know of Tyrion, such a change was unlikely I'd not really be able to disagree.

We are on the same page more or less.

But what I am saying is that Tywin is not a forgiving person. Tywin knows how to nurse a grudge and he is not likely to forget Tyrion's behavior 5-10 years later in the future. Frankly, I can't blame him because Tyrion's behavior towards Cersei, Joffrey and Tommen (but especially Tommen) in Tywin's absence when Tyrion is the one in control points to a major character defect.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

True, to an extent. That is the short term, Tyrion could have strengthened that bond, his heirs could have strengthened that bond.

Tyrion would be doomed to be despised by the Northmen, but his wife and children not so much. He could exert his influence through his figureheads.

Based on what we saw of the Northmen in A Dance with Dragons, I doubt it. The Northerners play games of thrones too. They just play it with a rougher, more aggressive edge.

Based on Sansa's personality traits and how she is blossoming in the second half of A Storm of Swords, throughout A Feast for Crows and The Winds of Winter sample chapter....I also doubt it.

Tyrion would be doomed. The Northmen would not allow Tyrion to exert any influence; if they had to stop short of killing him, they'd lock him away in a nice tower cell within Winterfell and let Sansa rule.

Given to how Sansa was treating Tyrion, the only way that he would have a child by her is if he raped her. Which, given how young she was, wouldn't have gone well. In any case, it doesn't stop the Northmen (or Sansa even) to view any child born of a Lannister-Stark union as a bastard.

 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not that we know of, though Aemon seems to have been convinced that being a Maester was not enough to prevent him becoming King.

Not enough to prevent him from being used as a pawn by Egg's enemies. Sort of like people could fight and plot in the names of Princess Aerea and Aegon the Elder without those people actually being leading such movements.

For Vaegon it was enough to be an archmaester to not have to sit the throne. Although his claim was not as good as the claims of the Velaryons and Viserys I.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Regardless, the hypothetical worry for Tarly would be that Sam would spend years, maybe decades, failing to become a Maester as Sam's personality did not seem like it could deal with pressure.

Even an acolyte/novice would be buried alive at the Citadel, so to speak. They do have recalled/being chosen as successors if the chosen heirs die unexpectedly. Chances for acolyte Sam to challenge Dickon are slim unless he is somehow backed by the Tyrells or crucial Tarly vassals/members of the household, etc.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not enough to prevent him from being used as a pawn by Egg's enemies. Sort of like people could fight and plot in the names of Princess Aerea and Aegon the Elder without those people actually being leading such movements.

Which is equally a possibility for Sam. Some ambitious commoner gets Sam under his influence and then presses his claim on his behalf.

 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For Vaegon it was enough to be an archmaester to not have to sit the throne.

Was it?

Or was it the lack of a Dragon when the other challengers all had them.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Although his claim was not as good as the claims of the Velaryons and Viserys I.

And more importantly, no Dragon. Anyone trying to sue Vaegon to rebel would been incinerated.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even an acolyte/novice would be buried alive at the Citadel, so to speak. They do have recalled/being chosen as successors if the chosen heirs die unexpectedly.

I'm not sure your meaning here, 'buried alive'?

As far as we know there is nothing stopping an acolyte from quitting. There is, as far as we know, nothing stopping a Maester quitting and returning to his place in the succession line.

 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Chances for acolyte Sam to challenge Dickon are slim unless he is somehow backed by the Tyrells or crucial Tarly vassals/members of the household, etc.

The chances of an ambitious man using Sam's birthright to challenge for the seat of  Horn Hill is a real possibility.

Just because something is unlikely does not mean we do not protect ourselves from it. Catching an std is slim, but its stupid not to use protection all the same.