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Unfit Heir


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54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which is equally a possibility for Sam. Some ambitious commoner gets Sam under his influence and then presses his claim on his behalf.

An ambitious commoner? When did that ever happen? To challenge Lord Dickon would-be Lord Samwell the Meek would need coin and swords. Commoners don't seem to have either in Westeros.

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Was it?

Or was it the lack of a Dragon when the other challengers all had them.

And more importantly, no Dragon. Anyone trying to sue Vaegon to rebel would been incinerated.

Viserys also didn't have a dragon ... yet he won against Laenor who had a dragon and whose mother was riding a pretty big dragon and whose sister may already have claimed Vhagar at that point (we don't know when that happened).

Vaegon was supposedly offered the throne by his father even before a Great Council was called. In fact, it was apparently Vaegon's idea to do that.

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not sure your meaning here, 'buried alive'?

Buried alive in the sense that the Citadel keeps you out of the sight of the public. People had also pretty much forgotten that Vaegon existed/was still alive when Prince Baelon died. And he was a royal prince and archmaester.

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

As far as we know there is nothing stopping an acolyte from quitting. There is, as far as we know, nothing stopping a Maester quitting and returning to his place in the succession line.

No, we do know that the latter doesn't work. Vaegon's claim was dismissed at the Great Council of 101 AC because of the vows he swore as an archmaester. His father may have intended to undo those vows when he considered naming him his heir, but this didn't happen. No chained maester ever succeeded to a lordship as far as we know.

And we should not delude ourselves into believing that men like Lyonel Strong or Oberyn Martell really wanted to be maesters. One likely can even finish a chain ... and then just not swear any vows. It is not that this is mandatory for anyone who starts to train to become a maester.

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The chances of an ambitious man using Sam's birthright to challenge for the seat of  Horn Hill is a real possibility.

Not a really strong possibility, I'd say. Landless people are not very likely to gather a strong following. Randyll and Dickon could have kept Sam in a tower cell - like Ronard the Bastard did with his royal brother. You have to be given the opportunity to become a danger to actually be a danger.

If people are happy with Dickon Tarly succeeding Lord Randyll then there won't be a rebellion. And only a rebellion is an issue, Sam petitioning the Tyrells or the Crown in this issue is a non-issue if those authorities are on the side of Lord Dickon.

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On 9/7/2020 at 3:30 PM, Lord Varys said:

Robert needs money considering that he is beggaring the Crown.

I don't think Robert can be relied upon to make the fiscally responsible decision. I don't think he likes thinking about fiscal responsibility at all. He doesn't decide to cut back on the Hand's tourney due to any debts, he just assumes there will always be enough money.

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If his wife or child was Lord of Casterly Rock he would not only get rid of the debts he owes to the Lannisters

Tywin didn't consider any debt to be gone once his grandson was on the throne. Cersei is not inclined to do what Robert wants.

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He has no reason to allow the Rock to go to Tyrion.

Careless generosity, his usual criteria for handing out castles.

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Willas Tyrell isn't all that crippled. He has a limp and needs a cane to walk, he is not wheelchair-bound nor unable to move/feel his legs. But unlike out other examples he is groomed to rule

It is striking that he's still eligible for marriage despite being twice Sansa's age (and she agreed to the match somewhat reluctantly in order to get away from the Lannisters in KL). We don't know of any refused betrothals though.

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and people accept that ... unlike with either Tyrion or Bran.

Bran was accepted as Prince of Winterfell in Robb's absence.

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Wyman made it clear to us that he views Rickon as his liege lord when he told Davos to fetch him. That means he doesn't view Bran as his liege lord ... despite the fact that he knows Bran survived Winterfell, too.

Nobody regarded Rickon as liege lord when Bran was in Winterfell. Bran's whereabouts are unknown, whereas Rickon's aren't.

On 9/7/2020 at 4:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sure, I understand why Wyman would look for Rickon first and foremost, knowing where he is. But having him would still not make him his liege lord. That would and should be Brandon Stark while he is still alive.

He doesn't actually know if Bran is still alive, since Wex only followed Rickon. An absent and possibly dead lord can't displace the Boltons.

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As is the fact that he doesn't seem to make attempts to look for/find Bran.

Where would he look for him? The North is the largest kingdom in Westeros.

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not that we know of, though Aemon seems to have been convinced that being a Maester was not enough to prevent him becoming King.

Catelyn was also convinced that Jon being a bastard wasn't enough to prevent him and his children from having a claim... which did turn out to be relevant when Robb decided he needed an heir regardless of Jon swearing an oath to the Night's Watch.

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The Watch and Citadel are different institutions, the idea that the same laws for one apply to the other is not necessarily true.

Like I said, watchmen are allowed to keep their names while maesters aren't.

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we have no idea what the 'laws' state for Maesters who quit their profession

We have no indication that they can "quit". This is not a capitalist society of freely contracting laborers. Barristan is actually offended by the idea of being "retired" in his old age despite his oaths. Elderly maesters aren't retired either, instead younger ones take up their duties while a pretence of the old one still being capable continues.

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There is no real suggestion in the books that brothers and nephews have a hard time inheriting when a Lord with no living/eligible children, grandchildren dies.

Robert, Robb and Baelon all had unsettled successions due to the lack of an eligible son. These were unusual circumstances, admittedly.

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Based on what we saw of the Northmen in A Dance with Dragons, I doubt it. The Northerners play games of thrones too. They just play it with a rougher, more aggressive edge.

The plan was to have Tyrion go there once the Northmen had exhausted themselves fighting the Boltons and Ironborn.

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10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think Robert can be relied upon to make the fiscally responsible decision. I don't think he likes thinking about fiscal responsibility at all. He doesn't decide to cut back on the Hand's tourney due to any debts, he just assumes there will always be enough money.

Tywin didn't consider any debt to be gone once his grandson was on the throne. Cersei is not inclined to do what Robert wants.

Careless generosity, his usual criteria for handing out castles.

None of those is an argument in favor of the idea that Robert would grant Tyrion Casterly Rock or would not realize that securing this lordship for his wife of son wouldn't greatly profit him, personally. He would technically control the lordship as father/husband of either Cersei or young Tommen.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It is striking that he's still eligible for marriage despite being twice Sansa's age (and she agreed to the match somewhat reluctantly in order to get away from the Lannisters in KL). We don't know of any refused betrothals though.

We can expect them, considering that even Arianne Martell thought about marrying Willas ... and she didn't think he was too crippled for her.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Bran was accepted as Prince of Winterfell in Robb's absence.

By the Stark lackeys in the castle ... a considerable number of the Northmen visiting Winterfell not only looked down on the cripple child but were angered and took it as a slight that a cripple was sat above them on the dais. Those men would never accept such a cripple as their liege lord or king.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Nobody regarded Rickon as liege lord when Bran was in Winterfell. Bran's whereabouts are unknown, whereas Rickon's aren't.

He doesn't actually know if Bran is still alive, since Wex only followed Rickon. An absent and possibly dead lord can't displace the Boltons.

Where would he look for him? The North is the largest kingdom in Westeros.

I don't care about any of that. Fact is, Bran would technically be Wyman's liege lord no matter where he is. And he should try to find him and/or find out what happened to him. He knows that Bran is still alive just as Rickon is supposed to be. But he has no idea where Rickon actually is nor whether he is still alive. He thinks he knows they wanted to go to Skagos, but he doesn't know whether they actually went there nor whether they are still alive.

Sure, he has a lead on Rickon, but Rickon still isn't his liege lord. But if Wyman gets to Rickon, fetches him back, makes him Lord of Winterfell they will commit treason since Brandon Stark is the actual heir. And chances are very low that anyone will ever considering deposing Rickon in favor of the crippled boy.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

None of those is an argument in favor of the idea that Robert would grant Tyrion Casterly Rock or would not realize that securing this lordship for his wife of son wouldn't greatly profit him, personally. He would technically control the lordship as father/husband of either Cersei or young Tommen.

He could have granted Dragonstone & Storm's End to his "sons" and thus remained technically in control of them. Instead, he gave those castles to his brothers because he's carelessly generous.

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I don't care about any of that. Fact is, Bran would technically be Wyman's liege lord no matter where he is.

Not if he's dead.

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And he should try to find him and/or find out what happened to him.

How, specifically, would he go about finding those things out?

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He knows that Bran is still alive just as Rickon is supposed to be.

No, Wex followed Rickon and could confirm he was alive during that time. Nobody Wyman knows of can do the same for Bran.

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But he has no idea where Rickon actually is

Wex pointing out Skagos is not "no idea", which is why Davos is going there. There's nowhere Davos could go to look for Bran, because Wyman genuinely has "no idea" where to look.

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And chances are very low that anyone will ever considering deposing Rickon in favor of the crippled boy.

If Bran turns up, Rickon himself might insist on it.

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4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He could have granted Dragonstone & Storm's End to his "sons" and thus remained technically in control of them. Instead, he gave those castles to his brothers because he's carelessly generous.

He didn't have children when he granted said lordships to his brothers.

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Not if he's dead.

Of course not, but he isn't dead.

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How, specifically, would he go about finding those things out?

Not my job to answer. There are a number of ways to find that out. He could, for instance, only search for Rickon to use him as a clue to find Bran, not knowing that Osha and the Reeds didn't tell each other where they would go.

Another way would to reveal it to the Northmen that Brandon Stark is still alive and that people should start looking everywhere for him.

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, Wex followed Rickon and could confirm he was alive during that time. Nobody Wyman knows of can do the same for Bran.

Wex has no idea whether Rickon is still alive a mere hour after he last saw him. Wyman's search for Rickon is no less a wild goose chase than a hypothetical search for Bran. The only difference is that people think they know where Rickon might be.

And if we consider Davos' own take on his search then going to Skagos is nearly the same as killing yourself, so the mission as such might be as hopeless as a search for Bran ... although for a different reason.

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Wex pointing out Skagos is not "no idea", which is why Davos is going there. There's nowhere Davos could go to look for Bran, because Wyman genuinely has "no idea" where to look.

Nobody ever said Davos should look for Bran.

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If Bran turns up, Rickon himself might insist on it.

Rickon's opinion would be irrelevant ... just as nobody gave a rat's ass about Myrcella's wishes when they wanted to crown her in Dorne.

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Tyrion was his fathers trueborn heir and is now the rightful lord of Castelry Rock. 

Tywin, who spoke with the kings voice, did absolutely nothing to nullify Tyrions birthright. 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rickon's opinion would be irrelevant ... just as nobody gave a rat's ass about Myrcella's wishes when they wanted to crown her in Dorne.

Myrcella didnt have a Shaggydog

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55 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion was his fathers trueborn heir and is now the rightful lord of Castelry Rock. 

Tyrion murdered his own father. He is the rightful lord of nothing. And he also was never Tywin's trueborn heir, since Tywin never acknowledged him as such.

55 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Myrcella didnt have a Shaggydog

Rickon is a 4-5-year-old. He has no will of his own, and would have no voice whatsoever with the people who want to use him as a figurehead.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion murdered his own father. He is the rightful lord of nothing.

I dont see the correlation

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And he also was never Tywin's trueborn heir, since Tywin never acknowledged him as such.

Like Gendry? 

The whole world knows Tyrion as the son of lord Tywin and the lady Joanna. 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rickon is a 4-5-year-old. He has no will of his own, and would have no voice whatsoever with the people who want to use him as a figurehead.

I think 6 or 7. And you dont need will when you have a wolf, nor a voice when you have a bite. 

Arianne had to manipulate Ser Arys. Good luck with the Shaggydog

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion was his fathers trueborn heir and is now the rightful lord of Castelry Rock. 

Tywin, who spoke with the kings voice, did absolutely nothing to nullify Tyrions birthright. 

Myrcella didnt have a Shaggydog

I would assume that much like the real world, a father could disinheret any of his children.  So presumably the eldest would inherit the title of Lordship if the father remained silent on the issue.  But if the father formally disinherited the child, I think legally the child would be out of luck.

So presumably Randyll could have simply made Dickon his heir without forcing Sam to take the black.  Now the benefit of making Sam take the Black is that it would prevent Sam from trying to dispute the succession after Randyll's death.

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont see the correlation

Do you think anybody will ever accept Tyrion as Tywin's successor after he murdered the man? In any proper society murdering your dad means you lose whatever inheritance rights you previously thought you had.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like Gendry? 

The whole world knows Tyrion as the son of lord Tywin and the lady Joanna. 

Yes, but Tywin never acknowledged him as/named him his heir. Jaime was still his heir.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think 6 or 7. And you dont need will when you have a wolf, nor a voice when you have a bite. 

Rickon was only three in AGoT. Do the math.

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I see people remember how Tywin in King's Landing said he will never give Tyrion Casterly Rock but end up forgetting why Tyrion was in King's Landing in the first place. Once Jaime's death became a serious prospect back in aGoT when he was captured, Tywin started to look at Tyrion as his heir instead and hence sent him to act as the Hand of the King in KL. It's only after Tyrion completely failed Tywin's test did Tywin say what he said. Before that he did not consider it unacceptable for Tyrion to inherit. 

But now that Tyrion went and flat out killed Tywin, he definitely can only take Casterly Rock by conquering it, he can't inherit it anymore.

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12 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I see people remember how Tywin in King's Landing said he will never give Tyrion Casterly Rock but end up forgetting why Tyrion was in King's Landing in the first place. Once Jaime's death became a serious prospect back in aGoT when he was captured, Tywin started to look at Tyrion as his heir instead and hence sent him to act as the Hand of the King in KL. It's only after Tyrion completely failed Tywin's test did Tywin say what he said. Before that he did not consider it unacceptable for Tyrion to inherit. 

You have a point there that there was a chance that Tywin might have considered Tyrion a potential heir when he made him Acting Hand and thought Jaime was already dead. But it is also possible he just intended to use him as a tool/pawn or a stand-in for another heir (Tommen, say, who he would groom for the role in the decade to come).

Note that Tywin immediately destroys Tyrion once he gets to the capital, and that happens long before he learns about Jaime's possible return.

12 minutes ago, Dofs said:

But now that Tyrion went and flat out killed Tywin, he definitely can only take Casterly Rock by conquering it, he can't inherit it anymore.

I'd honestly be surprised if he could keep it by means of conquest. After what Tyrion pulled, we should expect that somebody puts the abominable Imp down while he is snoring happily away in the lordly bedchamber ... sort of like the Red Kraken was killed.

What Tyrion pulled isn't forgivable or acceptable in this world.

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would assume that much like the real world, a father could disinheret any of his children.  So presumably the eldest would inherit the title of Lordship if the father remained silent on the issue.  But if the father formally disinherited the child, I think legally the child would be out of luck.

So presumably Randyll could have simply made Dickon his heir without forcing Sam to take the black.  Now the benefit of making Sam take the Black is that it would prevent Sam from trying to dispute the succession after Randyll's death.

Word, or Sam's kid 

Yea lords have the power to disinehrit, at least kings and princes do like Robb and Doran (Arianne thought) but the beauty of asshole lord fathers will, is he aint there to enforce it

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you think anybody will ever accept Tyrion as Tywin's successor after he murdered the man?

Well, you know the second sons and such will. 

Maybe a cousin or two

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In any proper society murdering your dad means you lose whatever inheritance rights you previously thought you had.

Welcome to Westeros

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but Tywin never acknowledged him as/named him his heir.

Meaningless. Rickard never named Ned heir nor did Viserys name Dany

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rickon was only three in AGoT. Do the math

Um, ok. 3+3 1/2=6 or 7

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22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He didn't have children when he granted said lordships to his brothers.

True, but he could have kept possession of the castles until he had children.

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Of course not, but he isn't dead.

We know that, the characters don't.

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He could, for instance, only search for Rickon to use him as a clue to find Bran, not knowing that Osha and the Reeds didn't tell each other where they would go.

So do what he's currently doing, except NOT use an alternate claimant against the Boltons once one has been found.

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Another way would to reveal it to the Northmen that Brandon Stark is still alive and that people should start looking everywhere for him.

He hasn't revealed to Northmen generally that Rickon is alive, as he's acting in secret for very good reason.

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Wex has no idea whether Rickon is still alive a mere hour after he last saw him

If we're going by hours, there are a whole lot more people Wyman can't be certain are still alive in a pre-modern era with limited communication over distance. But he does know that Rickon survived his trip away from Winterfell and went to Skagos, a place that Bolton loyalists are unlikely to have gone to find him. He does not know that about Bran.

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Wyman's search for Rickon is no less a wild goose chase than a hypothetical search for Bran. The only difference is that people think they know where Rickon might be.

Knowing where to look because an eyewitness told him where to go makes it not a "wild goose chase".

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Nobody ever said Davos should look for Bran.

Substitute anyone else for Davos, and they still wouldn't know where to look.

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Rickon's opinion would be irrelevant ... just as nobody gave a rat's ass about Myrcella's wishes when they wanted to crown her in Dorne.

Myrcella's aborted crowning was supposed to be based on Dornish law. There's no law which puts Rickon ahead of Bran. And that conspiracy was aimed at picking a fight with the hated Lannisters rather than actually installing Myrcella on the Iron Throne. The people Wyman wants to fight are the Boltons & Freys, not Bran.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In any proper society murdering your dad means you lose whatever inheritance rights you previously thought you had.

Agreed, although Ramsay might inherit anyway.

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Yes, but Tywin never acknowledged him as/named him his heir. Jaime was still his heir.

No, when someone swears oaths forsaking any inheritance that means they are no longer heir, without needing any action on the part of whoever they're inheriting from. And Tywin conspired with Sybell Spicer to ensure Jeyne Westerling didn't conceive a child even if Robb would never get a chance to name him heir, because the norm of primogeniture is very strong in Westeros.

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