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Aline de Gavrillac

Unfit Heir

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What options were open to Randyll and Tywin to prevent a son they saw as unfit heirs from inheriting their titles?  Short of doing what Randyll did.  What was Tywin planning to do with Tyrion if he could not get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard? 

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There are no legal options. The only thing they can do, and which both Lords did try to do, is try to have them married off to daughters of very powerful Houses who would then be invested in seeing their daughters/sisters and their grandchildren/nephews being in power.

Tarly tried to do that with House Redwyne and was insulted given Sam had become infamous in the Reach.

Tywin had possibly done that with Houses Tully, Martell, Royce and Florent.

 

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Well Tywin's Plan A was always to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard somehow.

However, Tywin did do something similar to what Randyll did to Sam. He went along with falsely accusing Tyrion of a crime that would leave him ineligible of taking Lordship of Casterly Rock. In essence that was plan C.

Plan B was giving Tyrion a lordship that wasn't the Rock such as when he married Sansa to Tyrion. Otherwise Tyrion probably would've been made Lord of Castamere or something in more normal times. 

If Jaime didn't inherit, Tyrion certainly wasn't going to if Tywin had his say. Kevan probably would've been his grudging option.

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28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Tarly tried to do that with House Redwyne and was insulted given Sam had become infamous in the Reach

 

as far as I understand it was absolutely normal situation and had nothing to do with "preventing from inheriting". sam was supposed to serve as Redwyne's page (later probably become a squire and knight), then marry desmera redwyne and become lord tarly after his fathers death.

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26 minutes ago, broken one said:

as far as I understand it was absolutely normal situation and had nothing to do with "preventing from inheriting". sam was supposed to serve as Redwyne's page (later probably become a squire and knight), then marry desmera redwyne and become lord tarly after his fathers death.

I possibly did not explain my position properly

There is no way they can legally prevent from inheriting, but what they can do, if the heir seems unsuitable to rule, is to marry them off to a powerful House who will be invested to see them succeed and someone of their own blood eventually ruling.

Sam may have been a liability, but if House Redwyne was invested in his success then this would help Sam when he got himself into trouble when other Lords or his vassals tried to undermine him.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Tywin was hoping to get Jaime to leave the KG.  He was not letting Tyrion have the rock.  His back was not yet at the wall, so to speak.  He might have pulled a Tarly if it had.  They are bound by the same laws from which they have benefited for thousands of years.  Fitness for the lordship has not been a part of the law.  They inherit because of an accident of birth.  The lucky sperm gets the goods.  He would have needed the king's blessing to get around this law.  Except Aerys was not going to be eager to release Jaime from the KG and it is more insulting to leave him with Tyrion as the heir to Casterly Rock.

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Beyond the legality of it you can imagine that most people that would be sufficiently "unsuitable" would lack the support needed to claim their rights if they simply get passed over in favour of someone more appealing, outside of someone wanting to play kingmaker and all the benefits that entails how much support could Tyrion reasonably generate if Tywin simply declared nah you're not my heir with some excuse. 

Tarly sent his son and heir to a penal colony and you can bet everyone that knew of Sam knows why and yet no one cares. 

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In all honesty I don’t think Tywin ever thought that Jamie wouldn’t leave the Kingsguard at some point. 
 

there was probably some level of denial in it but I’m sure he had a plan to get his wanted heir to inherent the rock. 

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Can always try what Viserys I did,

Ignoring every law, tradition and convention and naming a heir and starting a sucession dispute and a civil war in the process.

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4 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Beyond the legality of it you can imagine that most people that would be sufficiently "unsuitable" would lack the support needed to claim their rights if they simply get passed over in favour of someone more appealing, outside of someone wanting to play kingmaker and all the benefits that entails how much support could Tyrion reasonably generate if Tywin simply declared nah you're not my heir with some excuse. 

Tarly sent his son and heir to a penal colony and you can bet everyone that knew of Sam knows why and yet no one cares. 

So Lord Tarly was not the first person to do this kind of thing.  Different method of encouragement but the principle is the same. 

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44 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Can always try what Viserys I did,

Ignoring every law, tradition and convention and naming a heir and starting a sucession dispute and a civil war in the process.

He was the king and could write the law.  The dance happened because Hightower wanted his family DNA on the throne. 

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7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

What options were open to Randyll and Tywin to prevent a son they saw as unfit heirs from inheriting their titles?  Short of doing what Randyll did.  What was Tywin planning to do with Tyrion if he could not get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard? 

Well, Tywin was essentially ruling TSK, he could have made a decree disinheriting him. And maybe he could have done that just by being the lord of the westernlands and choosing his own heir, after all, Arianne thought her father did that to her in favour of Quentyn, and some people believe Aerys did that to Rhaegar. In fact, it seems to be what he did, he just plainly told Tyrion he won't inherit CR, maybe thats all he needed to do, he just didn't make it official because he didn't have a replacement heir yet.

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Camilo is right.  Tywin was never going to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion.  He would have found a way to push Tyrion aside.  He was counting on strong grandsons, I think. 

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13 minutes ago, The Coonster said:

Camilo is right.  Tywin was never going to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion.  He would have found a way to push Tyrion aside.  He was counting on strong grandsons, I think. 

Tywin is not immortal, nor did he know when he would die.

Considering he was fighting in the War of the Five Kings and Jaime was captured, there was not a lot Tywin could have done had he died at some point in the book series. Tyrion would have been the presumed Lord.

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36 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin is not immortal, nor did he know when he would die.

Considering he was fighting in the War of the Five Kings and Jaime was captured, there was not a lot Tywin could have done had he died at some point in the book series. Tyrion would have been the presumed Lord.

Well, yes, but is really unlikely he would die in war, he stays back, watching the battle instead of fighting in it, and even if he lost, he's more likely to be captured than killed, as he means a big ransom either in gold or political power. I think he was just gonna shun Tyrion once he found a better heir or Jaime was let go as a kingsguard 

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51 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, yes, but is really unlikely he would die in war, he stays back, watching the battle instead of fighting in it, and even if he lost, he's more likely to be captured than killed, as he means a big ransom either in gold or political power.

I think he was just gonna shun Tyrion once he found a better heir or Jaime was let go as a kingsguard 

More likely to not die, but he's still at war were a very real possibility is death. Even for commanders who lead from the reserve.

Tywin has already outlived his own father (died at 47) by a decade, outlived at least one younger brother, his wife, three uncles and I think it reasonable to assume that his grandfather Gerold was not much older(maybe younger) than Tywin when he died.

Interestingly there are 10 named rulers of the Westerland in the Targareyn era before Tywin, 7 of them died without seeing their grandchildren become adults.

So this idea that Tywin was biding his time to publicly disinherit Tyrion and name a new Lannister succession line does not hold up to much scrutiny.

 

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2 hours ago, The Coonster said:

Camilo is right.  Tywin was never going to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion.  He would have found a way to push Tyrion aside.  He was counting on strong grandsons, I think. 

This is a great point.  Which grandsons?  Cersei was done, Jamie wasn't planning on producing heirs and Tyrion is just out.  That leaves Tommen or Myrcella as Joffrey (or his heirs) was presumably the lord of the Stormlands.  Saying the Lannister regime followed suit set forth by the Targs, Tommen would have to take up at Dragonstone until Joff had a child.  The only 1 I see being available to rule the Westerlands is Myrcella.   Can't imagine Tywin would be thrilled about that.   As you've all said, Tywin was single minded about his heir.  Insofar as Tyrion ruling the Westerlands goes, I don't think that's what he wanted so much as Tywin's approval including the opportunity to be his heir.  Tywin really was stupid about his own succession.  

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

This is a great point.  Which grandsons?  Cersei was done, Jamie wasn't planning on producing heirs and Tyrion is just out.  That leaves Tommen or Myrcella as Joffrey (or his heirs) was presumably the lord of the Stormlands.  Saying the Lannister regime followed suit set forth by the Targs, Tommen would have to take up at Dragonstone until Joff had a child.  The only 1 I see being available to rule the Westerlands is Myrcella.   Can't imagine Tywin would be thrilled about that.   As you've all said, Tywin was single minded about his heir.  Insofar as Tyrion ruling the Westerlands goes, I don't think that's what he wanted so much as Tywin's approval including the opportunity to be his heir.  Tywin really was stupid about his own succession.  

Why would he not be pleased about Myrcella ruling? And there are other Lannister heirs after Myrcella. House Lannister, according to Cat, were a "damnably large and fertile house."

House Lannister was not stuck for heir options, it just so happens that Tywin preferred his oldest son to be his heir, the son he groomed for 15 years until Aerys snatched him away.

However people really seem to not understand that preferring one option over all others, does not mean that all other options are ruled out.

 

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On 9/5/2020 at 9:02 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

What options were open to Randyll and Tywin to prevent a son they saw as unfit heirs from inheriting their titles?  Short of doing what Randyll did.  What was Tywin planning to do with Tyrion if he could not get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard? 

Force him to join the watch.  Wait for Tyrion to die of an STD. 

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