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CamiloRP

Younger, more beautiful queen

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So, a while back @butterweedstrover posted about the Valonqar, and while reading his post something occurred to me. I posted it on the replies but the thing is still on my head and I wanted to know what people thought of it.

 

The Maggy The Frog prophecy says:

Quote

Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear 

 

Cersei clearly thinks this "other" is Sansa, and then she suspects Marjory, many fans think it's Dany and some other suspects are: Myrcella, Arya, Arianne, Lyanna (WTF?), Val, and probably every other female character if you look to hard for theories. However, I came to the realization that this "other" might be Cersei.

 

The "other" is supposed to:

 

cast her down

Cersei was already casted down, in her walk of shame. And who is the person most directly responsable for this? Cersei. She brought all of that on herself by reinstating the faith militant and try to frame Marjory. The thing I find most interesting here is that she only tries to frame Marjory because she was paranoid about the MTF prophecy, this would mean the prophecy is self fulfilling, which I personally really like, because, as Meera says "there has to be a point to prophecy" (still can't fin the damn quote). And, as a matter of fact, in The Armageddon Rag (the first GRRM book I ever read, which I wholeheartedly recommend) prophecy is self fulfilling. In fact, its quite likely that Cersei murdered Melara to stop her from divulging the prophecy, making that part of the prophecy self fulfilling.

 

take all she holds dear

We know only of three things Cersei definitely holds dear: her beauty, her power, and her children. Her beauty and her power are taken from her in her walk of shame, which she's guilty of. 

In regards to her children, she definitely loved Joff, but her love towards Tommen and Myrcella feels off, she thinks of them more of a way to achieving power than anything else. But still, Tommen and Myrcella are still alive, for now, the MTF prophecy states that they will die as kings (golden shrouds) and possibly within Cersei's lifetime (or else, why telling her they would die? She already knew they would eventually die). Cersei has a ploy to kill Trystane while he and Myrcella go from Dorne to KL, maybe something goes wrong and Myrcella dies? Maybe, but I doubt it. Maybe Tommen dies in the books as he died on the show, and that as definitely Cersei's fault. This I think is more likely, but still speculation. Some people also believe that Cersei poisoned Joff by trying to poison Tyrion, which would be so fucking brutal and just what she deserves, but to me this sounds almost imposible. Still, we don't know if and how Tommen and Myrcella will die, so we can't use them as evidence or counter evidence. In the other hand, Cersei probably had nothing to do with Joff's death, but in my opinion, she doesn't have to. If Joff dies and then X takes all she holds dear after that, X is still taking all she hold's dear, because she no longer has Joff.

What about Jaime? Cersei's and Jaime's relationship is ending, they hate each other, and whose fault is that? Cersei's. She kept looking at him with disgust and treating him like shit until she lost him.

 

Be "younger" and "more beautifull"

All the things Cersei looses are as a result of her past actions. Put another way. Past Cersei is younger than present Cersei (because of how time works). So that seems covered. Also, past Cersei is more beautiful, the walk of shame explicitly takes her beauty away from her. They shave her, and her hair is the symbol of Cersei's beauty, but also they show her naked to all of King's Landing, everyone sees her stretch marks and how her breasts are giving up, and Kevan remarks how the walk of shame took her beauty away, in fact, it was the point of the ceremony.

 

 

So, I'm not entirely convinced, the "younger" part meaning "a few days younger" it's stretchy at best, but I quite like the rest. Please give me your opinions, either for or against. Also tell me if you saw this anywhere else, now that I wrote it it seems kind of an obvious theory to make, but I still haven't found it (maybe it's related to the fact that googling "Is cersei the younger, more beautiful" only leads to the Maggy The Frog prophecy).

Thanks for reading!

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Yes, it has been theorised before that it's Younger Cersei. 

Here, for instance:

Brienne as well:

At this point I think every female character has been proposed... even dead ones! :D

 

Same for every younger sibling

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

Thanks @kissdbyfire <3

You're very welcome. 

FWIW, I find the idea quite interesting. But what I love the most about the prophecy is that it's Cersei's actions and paranoia that turned what Maggy said into a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

However, I came to the realization that this "other" might be Cersei.

If so, I don't see how the valonquar's "hands on her white throat" is going to work out.

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42 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You're very welcome. 

FWIW, I find the idea quite interesting. But what I love the most about the prophecy is that it's Cersei's actions and paranoia that turned what Maggy said into a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Absolutely, its cool because of the same reason "Cersei poisoned Joffrey" is cool, but this is, you know, actually possible

 

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33 minutes ago, zandru said:

If so, I don't see how the valonquar's "hands on her white throat" is going to work out.

That's the Valonqar, the younger more beautiful queen isn't the same as the valonqar.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

the younger more beautiful queen isn't the same as the valonqar.

(duh!) Thanks. I should have known that.

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You're very welcome. 

FWIW, I find the idea quite interesting. But what I love the most about the prophecy is that it's Cersei's actions and paranoia that turned what Maggy said into a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Maggy already knew Cersei had these qualities from Melara, so she gives answers which will make these qualities feed on themselves and grow.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

GRRM has had multiple things be true before in different ways, so I think both this and Brienne are true in that it's Cersei's being who she is which creates the purpose of Brienne.

Maggy the Frog plays mind games with Cersei.

  • She knows Cersei will kill Melara before having either of their blood which raises questions of why she took Cersei's blood in the first place (I think the "prophesy" is more curse and Maggy literally cursed her (again) as she left the tent). By knowing this, Maggy would understand that even at that young age, Cersei was jealous, paranoid, easily threatened, power hungry...
  • There's tons of genie imagery here. Cersei has to ask 3 times like a lamp must be rubbed 3 times. Cersei gets 3 wishes - her questions are about her wishes. Genie wishes often end up being curses.
  • Before Cersei asks her questions, Maggy guarantees Cersei won't like her answers.
  • Cersei herself has the feeling that her asking the questions is what doomed her.
  • Maggy gives the simple answers she's obligated to give in blue. What Maggy offers of her own free will is in red. Note that these answers play on Cersei's ambition, paranoia, etc.
  • The valonqar part creates further problems within the Lannisters, specifically Cersei and Tyrion and from there it spreads as Jaime chooses Tyrion. Maggy knows this - sowing more paranoia and mind games for the already paranoid.
Quote

"Three questions may you ask," the crone said, once she'd had her drink. "You will not like my answers. Ask, or begone with you."

 

Go, the dreaming queen thought, hold your tongue, and flee. But the girl did not have sense enough to be afraid.

 

"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.

 

"Never. You will wed the king."

 

Beneath her golden curls, the girl's face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died. "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

 

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

 

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her." Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was. She still had one more question due her, one more glimpse into her life to come. "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

 

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

 

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

 

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

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Some prophesies are small and the characters themselves don't spend much time thinking about them. For example, one of the Ghost of High Heart's many visions is of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair. Lots of readers think this is a vision of Sansa at Joffery's wedding. We might not ever get a direct answer to that. It's OK if we're left to speculate. None of the characters ever talk or even think about this vision. It doesn't really effect the story.

There are more important visions and prophesies, however, that the characters discuss, worry about, and try to make decisions about. We've been getting answers to those. Answers that effect the story and plot. Jojen's vision of the sea coming to Winterfell was Theon and the Ironborn taking Winterfell. Melisandre's vision of a runaway bride coming to the Wall was Alys Karstark fleeing a forced marriage.

Maggy the Frog's prophesies are clearly important. Cersei's actions contributing to her own downfall is already part of the story. I don't see how learning that Cersei was the "younger and more beautiful" would effect the story in a new way. I'm not even sure how GRRM could make it clear that it was Cersei. Is Maggy the Frog going to show up and say, "It was you, Cersei!"? Any of the other candidates, in contrast, would be revealed in the course of the story and effect the plot. 

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5 minutes ago, Groo said:

We might not ever get a direct answer to that. It's OK if we're left to speculate. None of the characters ever talk or even think about this vision. It doesn't really effect the story.

There are more important visions and prophesies, however, that the characters discuss, worry about, and try to make decisions about.

Not to change the subject, but this was Albus Dumbledore's point to Harry Potter. There were thousands of various prophesies, largely unheard. But when a character hears a prophesy and takes it for a valid prediction, and works to either make it true or prevent it from happening, then the words start to have major significance on events ... and the results are typically bad. Cersei is one example. Tom Riddle is another. Macbeth's wife, and by extension, Macbeth are classic examples. I think Rheagar will be another, as we learn his story in the fullness of time.

A few of the Ice & Fire characters seem able to hear prophesies and not feel compelled to act on them. Arya, for one. She's hard headed and firmly grounded in the world. Daenerys, I think, also. She does brood over the words from the House of the Undying, of Qaith's many messages - but she doesn't take actions on this basis.

This doesn't address who the younger and more beautiful queen will be, I know. It's a digression.

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2 hours ago, zandru said:

(duh!) Thanks. I should have known that.

no prob

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42 minutes ago, Groo said:

Maggy the Frog's prophesies are clearly important. Cersei's actions contributing to her own downfall is already part of the story. I don't see how learning that Cersei was the "younger and more beautiful" would effect the story in a new way. I'm not even sure how GRRM could make it clear that it was Cersei. Is Maggy the Frog going to show up and say, "It was you, Cersei!"? Any of the other candidates, in contrast, would be revealed in the course of the story and effect the plot. 

It would not effect the story in a new way, because the theory is that it already effected the story in that way, Cersei is already the younger more beautiful queen, she has already brought her own downfall, and it was a specific consequence of the Maggy The Frog prophecy. 

Also, Cersei being the cause of her own destruction isn't the only thing this contributes to the story. It reinforces the fickle and treacherous nature of prophecy. It brings to light that prophecy should be questioned, where does it come from, why is it send, etc. And GRRM wants to ask this questions.

Also, no, if she indeed was the younger more beautiful queen, it wouldn't bee stated. But I doubt it'd be stated if it where Dany or Sansa, The Green Grace or Pretty Merris. What we would probably have is the action of a younger queen casting Cersei down and taking all she holds dear, that would be the proof, and we would need to decide who we think it is. All I'm arguing is that it may have already happened.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Not to change the subject, but this was Albus Dumbledore's point to Harry Potter. There were thousands of various prophesies, largely unheard. But when a character hears a prophesy and takes it for a valid prediction, and works to either make it true or prevent it from happening, then the words start to have major significance on events ... and the results are typically bad. Cersei is one example. Tom Riddle is another. Macbeth's wife, and by extension, Macbeth are classic examples. I think Rheagar will be another, as we learn his story in the fullness of time.

A few of the Ice & Fire characters seem able to hear prophesies and not feel compelled to act on them. Arya, for one. She's hard headed and firmly grounded in the world. Daenerys, I think, also. She does brood over the words from the House of the Undying, of Qaith's many messages - but she doesn't take actions on this basis.

This doesn't address who the younger and more beautiful queen will be, I know. It's a digression.

Cersei does do a variation of what Dumbledore noted in that she brings up Melara believing that not speaking of it and forgetting it will ensure it would not come true. Cersei did admit to forgetting it for some time so her actions to prevent it at least for that time can't really be argued to be self-fulfilling (at least consciously), but it does make who she is more relevant.

AFFC Cersei VIII


Cersei did not want to hear that. "This maegi made certain prophecies. I laughed at them at first, but . . . she foretold the death of one of my bedmaids. At the time she made the prophecy, the girl was one-and-ten, healthy as a little horse and safe within the Rock. Yet she soon fell down a well and drowned." Melara had begged her never to speak of the things they heard that night in the maegi's tent. If we never talk about it we'll soon forget, and then it will be just a bad dream we had, Melara had said. Bad dreams never come true. The both of them had been so young, that had sounded almost wise.

AFFC Cersei IX

"The maegi." The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted. "Tyrion is the valonqar," she said. "Do you use that word in Myr? It's High Valyrian, it means little brother." She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned.

 

 

I think what Dumbledore spoke of is more directly being addressed by Mel's fixation on Azor Ahai. It's another example of GRRM tricking the reader into making the same mistakes as the characters. He's very clear that there's a lot of myths out there as to how the Long Night ended and it's actually the Last Hero who is closer to the characters and geography of the story, but because Mel harps on Azor Ahai so much with no proof offered to her or the reader for why we should think he is the one true myth and all others just words, the readers on this forum also fall into that getting involved discussions on who is Azor Ahai and trying to match up the specifics of his myth to events in the books.

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

Westeros remembers their conquerors as the Sarnori, for at its height their great kingdom included all the lands watered by the Sarne and its vassals, and the three great lakes that were all that remained of the shrinking Silver Sea. They called themselves the Tall Men (in their own tongue the Tagaez Fen). Long of limb and brown of skin they were, like the Zoqora, though their hair and eyes were black as night. Warriors, sorcerers, and scholars, they traced their descent to the hero king they called Huzhor Amai (the Amazing), born of the last of the Fisher Queens, who took to wife the daughters of the greatest lords and kings of the Gipps, the Cymmeri, and the Zoqora, binding all three peoples to his rule. His Zoqora wife drove his chariot, it is said, his Cymer wife made his armor (for her people were the first to work iron), and he wore about his shoulders a great cloak made from the pelt of a king of the Hairy Men.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

As the First Men established their realms following the Pact, little troubled them save their own feuds and wars, or so the histories tell us. It is also from these histories that we learn of the Long Night, when a season of winter came that lasted a generation—a generation in which children were born, grew into adulthood, and in many cases died without ever seeing the spring. Indeed, some of the old wives' tales say that they never even beheld the light of day, so complete was the winter that fell on the world. While this last may well be no more than fancy, the fact that some cataclysm took place many thousands of years ago seems certain. Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

 

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6 hours ago, Groo said:

Melisandre's vision of a runaway bride coming to the Wall was Alys Karstark fleeing a forced marriage.

But was it though?

Trusting Melisandre to deliver accuracy in her visions in the flames is a little tricky. The devil is in the details, a very obvious surface level reading would give you Alys as the Girl in Grey when in fact she seems more like the red-herring GRRM dangled in the reader's face. 

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5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

It would not effect the story in a new way, because the theory is that it already effected the story in that way, Cersei is already the younger more beautiful queen, she has already brought her own downfall, and it was a specific consequence of the Maggy The Frog prophecy. 

Also, Cersei being the cause of her own destruction isn't the only thing this contributes to the story. It reinforces the fickle and treacherous nature of prophecy. It brings to light that prophecy should be questioned, where does it come from, why is it send, etc. And GRRM wants to ask this questions.

Also, no, if she indeed was the younger more beautiful queen, it wouldn't bee stated. But I doubt it'd be stated if it where Dany or Sansa, The Green Grace or Pretty Merris. What we would probably have is the action of a younger queen casting Cersei down and taking all she holds dear, that would be the proof, and we would need to decide who we think it is. All I'm arguing is that it may have already happened.

Yeah. And let’s remember that no one knows about the prophecy apart from Cersei. And wouldn’t it be beautiful if at some point Cersei has a moment of clarity and realises she was her worst enemy all along? 

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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. And let’s remember that no one knows about the prophecy apart from Cersei. And wouldn’t it be beautiful if at some point Cersei has a moment of clarity and realises she was her worst enemy all along? 

I wouldn't just be beautiful, It would also be fitting with George's style.

But still, the "younger" part irks me.

Edited by CamiloRP
spelling

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3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I wouldn't just be beautiful, It would also be fitting with George's style.

But still, the "younger" part irks me.

Why? I mean, the whole thing is pretty vague... One way to look at it is, young(er) Cersei, upon hearing Maggy’s words, puts the whole thing in motion (self-fulfilling) by killing her friend and by starting to obsess about the YMB and the valonqar. 
And she keeps at it, nudging it towards what she fears most. For instance, since Maggy told her she would have 3 children, why didn’t she have one more? Things like that. 

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why? I mean, the whole thing is pretty vague... One way to look at it is, young(er) Cersei, upon hearing Maggy’s words, puts the whole thing in motion (self-fulfilling) by killing her friend and by starting to obsess about the YMB and the valonqar. 
And she keeps at it, nudging it towards what she fears most. For instance, since Maggy told her she would have 3 children, why didn’t she have one more? Things like that. 

It seems like a technicality, yes she is technically younger, but I don't now, it's the only part that doesn't fully convince me. To me it sounds like people claiming the giant that Sansa will slay would be Tyrion. 

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I always take the cryptic prophecies with a grain of salt. Clearly Maggy had some ability to see the future going for her, but what does she stand to gain by revealing it? What is her motive to tell it to Cersei in the manner she did?

She was annoyed by Cersei's intrusion and brashness. If her goal was to give Cersei a prophecy with enough nuggets of truth to hurt her and to keep her paranoid and fearful her whole life, she succeeded. There's nothing saying Maggy can't lie about the end and Cersei is setting up her downfall in being afraid of the prophesied end. 

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