Younger, more beautiful queen

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

It seems like a technicality, yes she is technically younger, but I don't now, it's the only part that doesn't fully convince me. To me it sounds like people claiming the giant that Sansa will slay would be Tyrion. 

Yeah, I know what you mean. In this specific case I’m not really married to any theory/idea. I think it’s too soon, maybe. But there are quite a few characters that fit, and just b/c karma is a bitch, I would really like for Cersei to be it.

 

[CamiloRP]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I know what you mean. In this specific case I’m not really married to any theory/idea. I think it’s too soon, maybe. But there are quite a few characters that fit, and just b/c karma is a bitch, I would really like for Cersei to be it.

 

Yes, I still like her more than any other candidate, and I think it would be the most interesting choice to be her, rather than just Sansa getting revenge or Dany usurping her.

[Groo]

6 hours ago, a black swan said:

But was it though?

Trusting Melisandre to deliver accuracy in her visions in the flames is a little tricky. The devil is in the details, a very obvious surface level reading would give you Alys as the Girl in Grey when in fact she seems more like the red-herring GRRM dangled in the reader's face. 

My point wasn't what I, as a reader, thinks of any of these prophesies. The runaway bride prophesy mattered to the characters in the story and they think it turned out to by Alys. Their coming thoughts and actions will be based on that.

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. And let’s remember that no one knows about the prophecy apart from Cersei. And wouldn’t it be beautiful if at some point Cersei has a moment of clarity and realises she was her worst enemy all along? 

This would match what I'm trying to get at but I honestly can't picture Cersei having such a moment. It isn't even that she's so lacking in self-awareness. Adversity and opposition only reinforce paranoia. When things go wrong it only reinforces Cersei's belief that people and the world are against her. What moment of clarity breaks through that? In the story, if any other woman is involved in her final downfall then Cersei will conclude that woman was the prophesy.

[CamiloRP]

8 minutes ago, Groo said:

I honestly can't picture Cersei having such a moment. It isn't even that she's so lacking in self-awareness. Adversity and opposition only reinforce paranoia. When things go wrong it only reinforces Cersei's belief that people and the world are against her. What moment of clarity breaks through that? In the story, if any other woman is involved in her final downfall then Cersei will conclude that woman was the prophesy.

Well, her character will undoubtedly change as did jaime once he lost his source of power (his sword hand). Cersei's "cunning" was just using sex to manipulate men, now she needs to grow smarter, and maybe, more self aware. As Sansa and Arianne are trying to do.

[Groo]

3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, her character will undoubtedly change as did jaime once he lost his source of power (his sword hand). Cersei's "cunning" was just using sex to manipulate men, now she needs to grow smarter, and maybe, more self aware. As Sansa and Arianne are trying to do.

Possibly, but Jaime does make a good contrast. When we first get his POV chapters we get confirmation that he's starting as a general arrogant ass. But as we go along we see he's aware of and struggling with conflicting obligations and loyalties. We have some of our initial impressions undermined, e.g. he had a good reason to kill Aerys. In his POV chapters we don't see him do anything horrific or outright evil. He also increasingly tries to find some sort of honorable course to follow.

Cersei only gets worse with each chapter. Unless there's some sort of "rock bottom" moment coming soon, I don't see where the change in Cersei's character is going to come from.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always take the cryptic prophecies with a grain of salt. Clearly Maggy had some ability to see the future going for her, but what does she stand to gain by revealing it? What is her motive to tell it to Cersei in the manner she did?

She was annoyed by Cersei's intrusion and brashness. If her goal was to give Cersei a prophecy with enough nuggets of truth to hurt her and to keep her paranoid and fearful her whole life, she succeeded. There's nothing saying Maggy can't lie about the end and Cersei is setting up her downfall in being afraid of the prophesied end. 

GRRM said to look at names closely and Maggy the Frog's family have several names that are close to the Reynes (Reynard/Raynald, Ellyn/Eleyna, Roger/Rolph, Cyrelle/Sybell, Rohanne/Rollam). Can't prove when Maggy the Frog's family married in with the Reynes, but there's gaps in both lines where it could have happened. There's also only 3 Robbs in the entire Westeros universe. One of the 3 was Robb Reyne. Gives extra meaning if Robb was murdered while Rains of Castamere was playing right after he married into what's left of the Reyne line. Rolph Spicer now has Castamere.

The Reynes are red lions sworn to the Lannsiters' gold lion - little brothers.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Groo said:

Possibly, but Jaime does make a good contrast. When we first get his POV chapters we get confirmation that he's starting as a general arrogant ass. But as we go along we see he's aware of and struggling with conflicting obligations and loyalties. We have some of our initial impressions undermined, e.g. he had a good reason to kill Aerys. In his POV chapters we don't see him do anything horrific or outright evil. He also increasingly tries to find some sort of honorable course to follow.

He did push a seven year old kid off a window tho.

 

1 hour ago, Groo said:

Cersei only gets worse with each chapter. Unless there's some sort of "rock bottom" moment coming soon, I don't see where the change in Cersei's character is going to come from.

There already was a rock bottom, she was imprisoned by a bunch of dirty smallfolk, she was tortured, starved and prevented from sleep, she was forced to beg, her hair was shaven and she was forced to walk naked across the city, every one watching her aging body, cursing at her and throwing her shit.

We haven't got a Cersei POV after that.

With Jaime was the same. He was a dick. But after losing his source of power, being captured and tortured by people he perceives  below him (sellswords), being poorly fed and such. It's after all of this that he breaks and starts trying to be good.

[Groo]

37 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

He did push a seven year old kid off a window tho.

 

There already was a rock bottom, she was imprisoned by a bunch of dirty smallfolk, she was tortured, starved and prevented from sleep, she was forced to beg, her hair was shaven and she was forced to walk naked across the city, every one watching her aging body, cursing at her and throwing her shit.

We haven't got a Cersei POV after that.

With Jaime was the same. He was a dick. But after losing his source of power, being captured and tortured by people he perceives  below him (sellswords), being poorly fed and such. It's after all of this that he breaks and starts trying to be good.

I was deliberately careful in my wording with Jamie. I think it's structurally very important that we didn't get his POV for tossing Bran off the tower. It makes it easier to sympathize with Jamie when we do get his POV and we get acts like his jumping into the bear pit to save Brienne. It's also why I've never considered Jamie's to be a "redemption" story. He doesn't think about Bran or regret pushing him out the window. To me, Jamie has been going through a well written identity crises. What was important to him was sword fighting and his love for Cersei. He loses both. In trying to figure out who he is and what his life should be, he's been turning into a better person but to me redemption means more than that.

You make a good case that Cersei might have just hit rock bottom. But since we don't know what comes next there's no way of knowing yet. I'm skeptical.

[CamiloRP]

25 minutes ago, Groo said:

I was deliberately careful in my wording with Jamie. I think it's structurally very important that we didn't get his POV for tossing Bran off the tower.

I think I misunderstood the part about him  trying to do the honorable thing. I thought you meant in the whole text, not just his POV.

 

26 minutes ago, Groo said:

To me, Jamie has been going through a well written identity crises. What was important to him was sword fighting and his love for Cersei. He loses both. In trying to figure out who he is and what his life should be, he's been turning into a better person but to me redemption means more than that.

Yes. Nothing else. Just yes.

 

27 minutes ago, Groo said:

You make a good case that Cersei might have just hit rock bottom. But since we don't know what comes next there's no way of knowing yet. I'm skeptical.

Yeah, its speculation, I think its probable, but I may be completely wrong.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 9/5/2020 at 6:34 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, it has been theorised before that it's Younger Cersei. 

Here, for instance:

Brienne as well:

At this point I think every female character has been proposed... even dead ones!

 

Same for every younger sibling

 

It is Brienne.  

[butterweedstrover]

No queen in the statement. 

"until there comes another, younger and more beautiful"

[TheLastWolf]

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No queen in the statement. 

"until there comes another, younger and more beautiful"

Really?

Who is that another then? The Maiden?

[Lollygag]

The use of "another" is one more of Maggy's mind tricks playing into Cersei's self-centered arrogance. She's so fixated on her position as queen that she assumes it must mean another (queen) which is just what Maggy intended.

It's also a red herring trick on the reader (not the only one). Cersei assumes it leading the reader to do it too.

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Really?

Who is that another then? The Maiden?

The person she came into the tent to ask about, the prince Rhaegar she wishes to marry. 

until their comes another younger and more beautiful than the prince she expects to marry. Cersei in the same chapter goes on a tangent about Aurane Waters and how Rhaegar was the most beautiful person in the world. 

Beauty has a gender bias that is meant to mislead the reader. 

How is the younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar? His son Aegon VI, also known as the Valonqar or "little brother" in valyrian. 

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

The person she came into the tent to ask about, the prince Rhaegar she wishes to marry. 

until their comes another younger and more beautiful than the prince she expects to marry. Cersei in the same chapter goes on a tangent about Aurane Waters and how Rhaegar was the most beautiful person in the world. 

Beauty has a gender bias that is meant to mislead the reader. 

How is the younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar? His son Aegon VI, also known as the Valonqar or "little brother" in valyrian. 

Or perhaps Rhaegar himself.

See, here's one way I interpret this "prophecy".  At the point in time Maggy told Cersei would marry the king, not the prince, Aerys was king and would be for ~ 7 more years.  Maggy was mocking Cersei, telling her she's not going to marry the handsome prince but the ugly king who was mad and didn't clip his own nails. 

From then on, Maggy's "prophecy" is educated guesswork.  That is, friction between father and son were common knowledge, as were Aerys' many children: The younger, more beautiful one was Aerys' son, Rhaegar, who deposes him.  The sixteen children "he" has, but the three that Cersei has are predicted to be all Aerys' -- 13 with Rhaella and 3 with Cersei.  (Viserys, alive at this point, was about the 10th child that Aerys and Rhaella had.  Compare this to Robert's 7-8 known children and add to that that Aerys probably has some illegitimate children as well.)

 

[butterweedstrover]

12 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Or perhaps Rhaegar himself.

See, here's one way I interpret this "prophecy".  At the point in time Maggy told Cersei would marry the king, not the prince, Aerys was king and would be for ~ 7 more years.  Maggy was mocking Cersei, telling her she's not going to marry the handsome prince but the ugly king who was mad and didn't clip his own nails. 

From then on, Maggy's "prophecy" is educated guesswork.  That is, friction between father and son were common knowledge, as were Aerys' many children: The younger, more beautiful one was Aerys' son, Rhaegar, who deposes him.  The sixteen children "he" has, but the three that Cersei has are predicted to be all Aerys' -- 13 with Rhaella and 3 with Cersei.  (Viserys, alive at this point, was about the 10th child that Aerys and Rhaella had.  Compare this to Robert's 7-8 known children and add to that that Aerys probably has some illegitimate children as well.)

 

Rhaegar was not the little brother, he was the eldest. 

His son however is the younger brother to Rhaenys. 

Also another younger and more beautiful is the key term. 

You see more means the former subject is already beautiful (Rhaegar). Aerys is sick and ugly. 

Both he and Rhaegar are already born at the time of the prophecy. until there comes another means the person hasn't been born yet (Aegon VI) who is a more beautiful version of Rhaegar. 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:44 PM, Lollygag said:

  

Maggy already knew Cersei had these qualities from Melara, so she gives answers which will make these qualities feed on themselves and grow.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

GRRM has had multiple things be true before in different ways, so I think both this and Brienne are true in that it's Cersei's being who she is which creates the purpose of Brienne.

Maggy the Frog plays mind games with Cersei.

• She knows Cersei will kill Melara before having either of their blood which raises questions of why she took Cersei's blood in the first place (I think the "prophesy" is more curse and Maggy literally cursed her (again) as she left the tent). By knowing this, Maggy would understand that even at that young age, Cersei was jealous, paranoid, easily threatened, power hungry...
• There's tons of genie imagery here. Cersei has to ask 3 times like a lamp must be rubbed 3 times. Cersei gets 3 wishes - her questions are about her wishes. Genie wishes often end up being curses.
• Before Cersei asks her questions, Maggy guarantees Cersei won't like her answers.
• Cersei herself has the feeling that her asking the questions is what doomed her.
• Maggy gives the simple answers she's obligated to give in blue. What Maggy offers of her own free will is in red. Note that these answers play on Cersei's ambition, paranoia, etc.
• The valonqar part creates further problems within the Lannisters, specifically Cersei and Tyrion and from there it spreads as Jaime chooses Tyrion. Maggy knows this - sowing more paranoia and mind games for the already paranoid.

 

 

Huh, nicely done. I always read it as Melara pushed Cersei down the well and took her appearance. Melara contrived the entire meeting wanting Jaime and all that. Tears drowning in a well. etc. 

After-all, what’s the difference between a, prophecy, recipe, and an order?

[U. B. Cool]

The identity of the younger and more beautiful girl points to Dany.  You have to remember.  Cersei was a young beauty in her youth.  Sansa and Margery can't compete.  

[TheLastWolf]

Ygritte, Queen of Snow, Lady wife to King Jon of Winter

[TedBear]

On 9/20/2020 at 2:28 AM, U. B. Cool said:

The identity of the younger and more beautiful girl points to Dany.  You have to remember.  Cersei was a young beauty in her youth.  Sansa and Margery can't compete.  

Well, Cersei says that Margaery is pretty enough, or something like that. I don't remember her being so afraid of Sansa, but Margaery is certainly an extraordinary beauty and Cersei already thinks that she is the youngest queen.