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Younger, more beautiful queen

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On 9/20/2020 at 2:28 AM, U. B. Cool said:

The identity of the younger and more beautiful girl points to Dany.  You have to remember.  Cersei was a young beauty in her youth.  Sansa and Margery can't compete.  

Sure, that's the obvious assumption, but what does it add to the text?

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It is Margaery

“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes. “Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

Now, a lot of people think that Cersei can’t be “cast down” until after all three of her kids have golden shrouds (die), but that’s a common misconception caused by conflating the former quote with this one:

“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.

“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.”

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she’d cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

So in terms of sequential order, the only thing Maggy predicts is that Cersei will almost assuredly outlive her children. Chronologically, we have no clue when this “younger and more beautiful” queen will “cast her down.”

Anyway, who is it?

Logic might tell us it’s Dany. After all, we have to assume she’s coming to Westeros, she is certainly younger (and probably considered more beautiful for that reason alone because Westeros can be a bit gross about these things), and from what we know, she’s out to cast down the Barathisters and take the throne.

Poetry might tell us it’s Sansa. Cersei’s mistreatment of her was obvious, and there are many, many hints that Sansa may one day become queen. It’s also notable that Sansa herself is determined to have her approach to any potential future rule be diametrically opposed to Cersei’s:

“Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you’ll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.”

“I will remember, Your Grace,” said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people’s loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me.

Those are two lovely candidates. But…the thing is, we kind of already know the answer, because Cersei has been cast down as of the end of AFFC. The YMBQ is Margaery. And it’s Margaery because Maggy’s prophecy is a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Cersei projected absolutely everything onto Margaery: her evil, scheming nature, her “wanton” ways, hell even the idea that she may have been involved in an incestuous relationship with Loras. And none of this is the reality. Yes, Margaery is not completely above scheming (she was definitely at least aware of Joffrey’s murder), not a total idiot (“Your Grace, this must be answered fiercely!”), and doesn’t have an in-tact hymen. But in general, what we know of Margaery is that she’s a relatively innocuous girl who is traded around by her father like a baseball card, and who goes out of her way to put on a performance of idealized maidenhood through such nefarious acts as picking autumn flowers, visiting the sept on Maiden’s Day, and frequenting fish merchant’s stalls.

The “evil schemer” is a total fabrication of Cersei’s, because she believes in the prophecy. And it’s quite clear that everything Cersei does to set up Margaery (seducing the Kettleblacks, torturing the Blue Bard) is what leads to her own downfall, just as everything she does to keep her children safe (dismissing all Tyrells from the Council and surrounding herself with incompetent sycophants, forbidding Tommen from visiting the commoners with Margaery even though it would improve his public image) are actually putting them in even greater danger.

Now that’s poetry.

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3 hours ago, LHakaLH said:

It is Margaery

“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes. “Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

Now, a lot of people think that Cersei can’t be “cast down” until after all three of her kids have golden shrouds (die), but that’s a common misconception caused by conflating the former quote with this one:

“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.

“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.”

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she’d cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

So in terms of sequential order, the only thing Maggy predicts is that Cersei will almost assuredly outlive her children. Chronologically, we have no clue when this “younger and more beautiful” queen will “cast her down.”

Anyway, who is it?

Logic might tell us it’s Dany. After all, we have to assume she’s coming to Westeros, she is certainly younger (and probably considered more beautiful for that reason alone because Westeros can be a bit gross about these things), and from what we know, she’s out to cast down the Barathisters and take the throne.

Poetry might tell us it’s Sansa. Cersei’s mistreatment of her was obvious, and there are many, many hints that Sansa may one day become queen. It’s also notable that Sansa herself is determined to have her approach to any potential future rule be diametrically opposed to Cersei’s:

“Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you’ll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.”

“I will remember, Your Grace,” said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people’s loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me.

Those are two lovely candidates. But…the thing is, we kind of already know the answer, because Cersei has been cast down as of the end of AFFC. The YMBQ is Margaery. And it’s Margaery because Maggy’s prophecy is a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Cersei projected absolutely everything onto Margaery: her evil, scheming nature, her “wanton” ways, hell even the idea that she may have been involved in an incestuous relationship with Loras. And none of this is the reality. Yes, Margaery is not completely above scheming (she was definitely at least aware of Joffrey’s murder), not a total idiot (“Your Grace, this must be answered fiercely!”), and doesn’t have an in-tact hymen. But in general, what we know of Margaery is that she’s a relatively innocuous girl who is traded around by her father like a baseball card, and who goes out of her way to put on a performance of idealized maidenhood through such nefarious acts as picking autumn flowers, visiting the sept on Maiden’s Day, and frequenting fish merchant’s stalls.

The “evil schemer” is a total fabrication of Cersei’s, because she believes in the prophecy. And it’s quite clear that everything Cersei does to set up Margaery (seducing the Kettleblacks, torturing the Blue Bard) is what leads to her own downfall, just as everything she does to keep her children safe (dismissing all Tyrells from the Council and surrounding herself with incompetent sycophants, forbidding Tommen from visiting the commoners with Margaery even though it would improve his public image) are actually putting them in even greater danger.

Now that’s poetry.

You actually say pretty much the same thing as the op but reach a different conclusion. I think that, in the scenario you describe, Cersei is the one casting herself down, not Margeary

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Posted (edited)

"Beautiful" in Cersei's world means something quite ugly outside of it. Lysono Maar's Targaryen looks makes Arianne's skin crawl. I think it's Dany.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 3/16/2021 at 5:37 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

This is interesting, but it's also worth it to note that Dany is Younger and More Beautiful. Like way more beautiful, because she's pure Valyrian for 2 up front generations.

The prophecy probably refers to Dany.  The thing is, I don't believe Cersei will still be around when Dany comes to Westeros.  War will happen between Aegon and Cersei.  Only one comes out alive and it is going to be Aegon.  I thought Cersei had the better chances but her reign is loosing funds.  The Iron Bank is not going back to the table to renegotiate. 

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Posted (edited)
On 9/5/2020 at 7:44 PM, Lollygag said:

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her." Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was.

“the child’s face”. Did Cersei start referring to herself in the third person?

Tyrion took a bottle  from Grand Maester Pycelle. A top shelf bottle, that was very dusty. Pycelle broke his fast with prunes and an assortment of other high fiber foods.

Cersei was looking ever so beautiful the day she went riding with a bard.

Is this the Cersei that Jaime sees? When she smiled, you saw how beautiful she was, truly. I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. He almost felt sorry for poisoning her.
It was the next morning as he broke his fast that her messenger arrived. The queen was indisposed and would not be able to leave her chambers. Not able to leave her privy, more like. -
 
“ Is this the Cersei that Jamie sees?” More then one Cersei?

What if we read the prophecy as Marla put Cersei in a well? 
 
 
Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"Beautiful" in Cersei's world means something quite ugly outside of it. Lysono Maar's Targaryen looks makes Arianne's skin crawl. I think it's Dany.

The Valyrian appearance for this whole universe is unique and beautiful, people in books see this all the time, I understand your point, but it doesn't always happen, the only person she refers to as "beautiful" is Rhaegar, he was indeed beautiful, and Dany is like a female version of Rhaegar, when Cersei compares Jaime and Rhaegar, I think that indirectly in the context of the story she is comparing  herself to Daenerys.

 

Edited by TedBear

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It's Sansa. She is the only one who makes the prophecy about being a queen and ruling. Also Sansa took several things away from Cersei - her child, Jaime and her power, and she did this by being kind and merciful - qualities that Cersei abhors. There's something cathartic about Cersei being brought down by traits she looks down upon. 

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3 minutes ago, TedBear said:

The Valyrian appearance for this whole universe is unique and beautiful, people in books see this all the time, I understand your point, but it doesn't always happen, the only person she refers to as "beautiful" is Rhaegar, he was indeed beautiful, and Dany is like a female version of Rhaegar, when Cersei compares Jaime and Rhaegar, I think that indirectly in the context of the story she is comparing  herself to Daenerys.

It depends on how gullible the POV is. Targaryen beauty makes Arianne's skin crawl. That's a HUGE negative. She sees ugliness underneath. She even thinks that if Viserys looked like that, that she was better off not marrying him.

Don't think of "beauty" played straight. Especially when there are messages throughout the books, to watch out for beauty, that not all is as it appears. Maybe we should question what Cersei finds beautiful. 

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20 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

It's Sansa. She is the only one who makes the prophecy about being a queen and ruling. Also Sansa took several things away from Cersei - her child, Jaime and her power, and she did this by being kind and merciful - qualities that Cersei abhors. There's something cathartic about Cersei being brought down by traits she looks down upon. 

:agree:

19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Don't think of "beauty" played straight. Especially when there are messages throughout the books, to watch out for beauty, that not all is as it appears. Maybe we should question what Cersei finds beautiful. 

The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle."

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Posted (edited)
On 3/20/2021 at 5:19 PM, Elegant Woes said:

It's Sansa. She is the only one who makes the prophecy about being a queen and ruling. Also Sansa took several things away from Cersei - her child, Jaime and her power, and she did this by being kind and merciful - qualities that Cersei abhors. There's something cathartic about Cersei being brought down by traits she looks down upon. 

Likewise, I agree that the evidence so far points to Sansa. She's (unwittingly) had a hand in taking both Joffrey and Jaime from Cersei. 

Of course the problem with vaguely worded prophecies is you can read anything into them. One wacky reading is that it's Tyrion. He took both Tywin and Myrcella from Cersei, and helped turn Jaime against her. He's younger than Cersei and beauty is subjective. 

Edited by Lady_Qohor

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Posted (edited)

Brilliant work as usual @CamiloRP! I do think that Cercei is a case of self fulfilling prophecy but I hadn’t thought that it would go that far. My opinion is that it would be either Sansa or my personal crackpot theory that it’s going to be Val. But Cersei fits just perfect too.

On 3/20/2021 at 4:58 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

"Beautiful" in Cersei's world means something quite ugly outside of it. Lysono Maar's Targaryen looks makes Arianne's skin crawl. I think it's Dany.

Great point. I haven’t noticed it before. Ι find the Targaryens, mostly because of their complexion, more weird than attractive.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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The younger, more beautiful queen is Daenerys Targaryen.  Cersei was a great beauty.  There are not many, if any, who would have been more lovely.  Daenerys is the only one who would be significantly more attractive in comparison to Cersei.  Dragons > Lions > Wolves.

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3 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

The younger, more beautiful queen is Daenerys Targaryen.  Cersei was a great beauty.  There are not many, if any, who would have been more lovely.  Daenerys is the only one who would be significantly more attractive in comparison to Cersei.  Dragons > Lions > Wolves.

The problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maggy the frog might have been referring to inner beauty or she might have been referring to her own tastes and the 'another' who is more beautiful is actually a man. 

Meanwhile 'younger', 'cast you down' and 'take all you hold dear' are much easier to define. Dany only meets the first criteria at the moment while Sansa, Margaery and even Tyrion and Littlefinger are much closer to meeting all three. 

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7 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

The younger, more beautiful queen is Daenerys Targaryen.  Cersei was a great beauty.  There are not many, if any, who would have been more lovely.  Daenerys is the only one who would be significantly more attractive in comparison to Cersei.  Dragons > Lions > Wolves.

What about Cersei loosing her beauty in the walk of shame, making past Cersei much more beautiful?

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Hair grows back. Daenerys Targaryen, methinks makes Cersei look like a kitchen drab, as Barristan Selmy would say it.

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4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Hair grows back. Daenerys Targaryen, methinks makes Cersei look like a kitchen drab, as Barristan Selmy would say it.

Believe what you will, me personally, I'm not entirely convinced by the YMBQ being Cersei, but the lost of her beauty is one of the main themes of the walk of shame, so past Cersei was definitely more beautiful than present Cersei, maybe even objectively so, something that can't be the case with any other character since beauty is subjective. All of this is stated in the OP, which is why I asked @Anck Su Namun what I did, because replying 'Dany is the only more beautiful' makes no sense in a discussion of the OP's ideas. 
And while I'm not entirely convinced Cersei is the YMBQ (tho I'm mostly convinced at this point) I do think it's unlikely Dany will be the YMBQ, and her beeing more beautiful is not strong enough evidence, as, again, beauty is subjective. For all we know Sansa is more beautiful than Cersei, or Margeary is, or Arianne, or Ygritte, or Myrcella, or Osha, or Asha, or Brianne, or Pretty Merris. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

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10 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

What about Cersei loosing her beauty in the walk of shame, making past Cersei much more beautiful?

I'm afraid you're not going to get much nuance from the folks who think the Targaryens deserve to win all the beauty pageants. Targaryens are, after all, the best at everything, including the most beautyful! You'll just have to admit that Daenerys is the bestest looking. Nothing more to say here about it. Prophecies are so straightforward like that! :rofl:

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Posted (edited)

Cersei effectively suspects every lady who might be a queen, which seems,err , irrational. I'm hoping Dany burns her, but considering the prophecy, that's unlikely. Maybe Dany strangles her? 

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Targaryens are, after all, the best at everything, including the most beautyful!

 

Targaryens are most certainly not the best at everything. And while most of them have Valyrian looks, there are exceptions as in: Alyssa Targaryen (daughter of Jaehaerys I), Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III, who did have Valyrian looks, but not much beauty), Helaena Targaryen ( daughter of Viserys I). Maybe more. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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