Ser Brandor?

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Nevets said:

Bran's story is one of learning to use magic, probably to gather information, and possibly to pass it on.  I don't think fighting, especially with a sword, is on the curriculum. If Bran has to save the day with a sword, then the good guys are probably doomed.

Valyrian swords are not magic swords.  The make a swordsman better, probably because they are lighter, sharper ,and generally easier to use.  Jon and Brienne are both very good swordsmen, and the VS makes them even better.  But I don't think someone who is entirely untrained would get much benefit from one.

 

I agree with you right up to the point where you go into VS not being magic swords.   Nay, old friend, they are.  Even if you forget the dragon fire and blood magic used to make them, there are still all those spells that are integral to the forging.   I thought for a long time Bran and Hodor would "come together" as a hero knight with a magic sword when the time comes.   I question this now and that is the point of the discussion.   We are all painfully aware of other ends for both characters and I try not to let that color my thinking.   And yes, I am still matching heroes to swords and have given my sorcerer's sword (Dark Sister) to another character, moving Bran/Hodor much lower on the list as the next nearest sword (Longclaw) is claimed.  In light of Hodor's size alone, Dark Sister would be wasted on him--any of the regular long swords would be wasted on a man of that size.   Outside of Longclaw, the big swords are matched.   There are only 3 of them at the end of the day.  But my formula demands a sorcerer/wizard and Bran totally fits the druid character type.   I did some research on what was considered heroic in this story.   Curiously, overcoming physical disability rated pretty high on the list.   I think that's part of Bran's story, too, as he is the obvious character to overcome his disability.  This is me trying to make up my mind so that I can move forward.   Was the early conversation about being a knight simple precursor for what's already happened with Bran's skinchanging Hodor? (It is closest to the truth I am currently thinking).  Was the knight talk something Martin planned and abandoned?   Is this something he thought better of and dropped?  Or is it all still in play?

I think you're 100% right about Bran's role in information and raise that with explaining magic.   To be clear, Bran wouldn't use the sword but move Hodor's actions as he does in crisis.   Dark Sister may be too small for Hodor, but a long sword is still too long for a little boy.    

[Curled Finger]

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

It's just... I doubt GRRM would make a series in which the solution to the problem is war and genocide of an entire people, who are just plain evil.

Then again: the show. I might be completely wrong. 

But it makes me happy that my proposition turned to be a fun possibility you hadn't considered 

If anything ASOIAF is an antiwar saga.  However, as seen in the never ending war of the 5 kings, then 1 queen and 3 kings and so forth, the exposition of wars and horrors of is how Martin gets the point across.  I could be hung up on the wording of the stories as previously explained.  I don't know what the Others are about, only that they kill and I don't know why.   Maybe Bran will tell us!  I think there has to be something that makes both ice and fire monsters go away forever.   Dragons aren't any better than the Others insofar as bad bad bad goes.   There has to be a battle and maybe all those brilliant minds who believe Bran may skin change a dragon have the right of it.  That's your proposition opening my focused mind to the possibility.   

[CamiloRP]

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

If anything ASOIAF is an antiwar saga.  However, as seen in the never ending war of the 5 kings, then 1 queen and 3 kings and so forth, the exposition of wars and horrors of is how Martin gets the point across.  I could be hung up on the wording of the stories as previously explained.  I don't know what the Others are about, only that they kill and I don't know why.   Maybe Bran will tell us!  I think there has to be something that makes both ice and fire monsters go away forever.   Dragons aren't any better than the Others insofar as bad bad bad goes.   There has to be a battle and maybe all those brilliant minds who believe Bran may skin change a dragon have the right of it.  That's your proposition opening my focused mind to the possibility.   

It could be. But I find it extremely un-GRRM to have an all evil destructive humanoid force. What I think would happen is a pact or something of the like. Nukes saving humanity from all-evil beings doesn't seem likely to me. Or maybe that's the point, and the series ends how a million memes have predicted: with everyone dying as a result of endless war and prejudice. Maybe the house of black and white was right, and death brings peace, just to the world rather than the dead.

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

It could be. But I find it extremely un-GRRM to have an all evil destructive humanoid force. What I think would happen is a pact or something of the like. Nukes saving humanity from all-evil beings doesn't seem likely to me. Or maybe that's the point, and the series ends how a million memes have predicted: with everyone dying as a result of endless war and prejudice. Maybe the house of black and white was right, and death brings peace, just to the world rather than the dead.

Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings?  There is a huge battle and a magic item and in the end the (magical) elder races move on.  While not exactly a pact, it is close enough.   ASOIAF has that feel to me.  Magic has to leave the world so that men may rule themselves without the interference of forces non-human.  No dragons or ice demons, just human men, with the possible exception of the Crannogmen who are both entrenched in the northern culture and tied to the COTF.  I'm thinking all those magical bloodlines will just go away.  No more direwolves or skinchanging or necromancy or telepathy or seeing history through trees.  This is me trying to cheer you up, Bud.  You are waxing philosophical and I don't think Westeros is without hope, just hope without magic.  Of course, I could be dead wrong, too.  We are reading Martin so we are both no doubt wrong!  

[Sir Tumbleweed]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:41 AM, rotting sea cow said:

There is likely a valyrian steel sword at the cave: Dark Sister. Someone has to use it.

It would be pretty hilarious if Hodor/Brandor ended up wielding a VS sword, but I don't really see the point. 

Bloodraven and Bran have other cool ways to fight anyway, like tearing up the wights with a flock of ravens in the haunted forest.

 

On 9/7/2020 at 6:29 AM, broken one said:

I do not think GRRM made Bran control Hodor just for the one moment at the cave's entrance (important as it was). Bran is still doing it and I believe he will possess Hodor in coming books again.

Yea he's definitely gonna keep warging Hodor. He's pretty much doing it out of boredom at the end of DwD

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings?  There is a huge battle and a magic item and in the end the (magical) elder races move on.  While not exactly a pact, it is close enough.   ASOIAF has that feel to me.  Magic has to leave the world so that men may rule themselves without the interference of forces non-human.  No dragons or ice demons, just human men, with the possible exception of the Crannogmen who are both entrenched in the northern culture and tied to the COTF.  I'm thinking all those magical bloodlines will just go away.  No more direwolves or skinchanging or necromancy or telepathy or seeing history through trees.  This is me trying to cheer you up, Bud.  You are waxing philosophical and I don't think Westeros is without hope, just hope without magic.  Of course, I could be dead wrong, too.  We are reading Martin so we are both no doubt wrong!  

Yes, we are definitely both wrong

Haven't thought of that. It sound possible, tho incredibly nostalgic and bittersweet. And therefore more likely.

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Was the early conversation about being a knight simple precursor for what's already happened with Bran's skinchanging Hodor? (It is closest to the truth I am currently thinking).  Was the knight talk something Martin planned and abandoned?   Is this something he thought better of and dropped?  Or is it all still in play?

Still in play, I'm thinking, in a big way. But I think it is leading us toward a new kind of knight and a new kind of throne: instead of an Iron Throne made out of swords, Bran and his team may be working toward a tree / wood throne.

When the Baratheon court visits Winterfell, GRRM makes a big point of telling us that the Stark boys are permitted to use only wooden swords. Joffrey scoffs at this. In one of his few "tourney" scenes, Bran is paired for a joust with Tommen by Ser Rodrik Cassel.

Later, when Joffrey's name day tournament has fallen apart, Tommen wants to joust and he is set up with a jousting dummy made of hay. The dummy spins around and knocks him off his pony - a defeat for Tommen, in ASOIAF tourney symbolism. I have this inkling that the hay jousting dummy is part of Team Bran, who is uniquely bonded with the plant kingdom. Bran also has a personal guard name Hayhead. To me, if feels as if there is some kind of hint here that Bran will replace or defeat Tommen in the game of thrones.

Interestingly, Brienne's hair is always described as looking like straw. Could be a sign that she will be the big person (after Hodor) who pairs up with Bran to create a true knight.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There has to be a battle and maybe all those brilliant minds who believe Bran may skin change a dragon have the right of it.

Not 100% sure, but I don't think so.

Tommen seems to have animal magic - the pet fawn that Joffrey skins and turns into a vest (Buffalo Baratheon in Silence of the Fawns?) and the kittens. In his rivalry with Bran, maybe the catspaw would-be assassin is even symbolically part of Tommen's animal kingdom. And Tommen doesn't like to eat beets - a plant, associated with the underworld and with Bran, who sends a plate of root vegetables to the Walders at the Winterfell harvest feast. Again, I think the magic that Bran is accumulating will tend to be of the wooden sword, hay, root and beet variety, not the skinchanging-all-animals variety.

Granted, Bran wargs the direwolf Summer. And he takes a sword from the Winterfell crypt. Not sure how those fit into this Plant Kingdom theory for Bran's future.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Bran's story is one of learning to use magic, probably to gather information, and possibly to pass it on.

One of the symbolic ways that Bran accumulates magic is when the direwolf Summer eats the flesh of an animal or person that embodies certain qualities. Other wargs and skinchangers probably also participate in this, but we get a number of instances of this in Bran POVs and Jojen warning Bran that he can't survive on food Summer ingests while Bran is warging. But Bran really seems to like it.

So Bran's journey to become a knight (and/or whatever else is in his future) is advanced by consuming people who offer qualities he needs.

Complicating this is Jojen's green dream about water flowing over the walls of Winterfell. If you buy into the wordplay approach to literary analysis, "wolf" and "flow" (flower, flour) are part of the same group of symbols (along with "fowl"). When Alebelly, Septon Chayle and the blacksmith Mikken are "drowned" by the flow of Ironborn over the wall in Jojen's dream, their qualities may be some of the first "kills" absorbed by Bran in his quest to accumulate magic.

Maybe we can compare this to the great knight Ser Clarence Crabb accumulating the heads of defeated foes and bringing them back to his seat to advise him in his ongoing responsibilities.

[Curled Finger]

On 9/8/2020 at 9:37 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

It would be pretty hilarious if Hodor/Brandor ended up wielding a VS sword, but I don't really see the point. 

Bloodraven and Bran have other cool ways to fight anyway, like tearing up the wights with a flock of ravens in the haunted forest.

 

Yea he's definitely gonna keep warging Hodor. He's pretty much doing it out of boredom at the end of DwD

Not hilarious at all, friend.   Hodor has a great sword taken from the crypts.  This is the point of the OP, Bran wants to be a knight and has seen his dream come true in controlling Hodor.  This act simultaneously satisfies Maester Luwen's ideas about Bran becoming a knight of the mind.  I thought Hodor was a pretty badass fighter under Bran's control.  We aren't talking about wights, but Others who can't be harried by a flock of pesky birds.   While not everyone agrees that there will be a battle that will require exceptional heroes to wield magic swords, it is the thing I see coming and that is really the only point of even bringing it up.  

If you don't see it, I get it.   Ser Brandor is not a popular idea.  Bran is a character unlike any I've ever read while Hodor is like at least 3 other characters I have.  I think the questions are worth asking.  

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

Still in play, I'm thinking, in a big way. But I think it is leading us toward a new kind of knight and a new kind of throne: instead of an Iron Throne made out of swords, Bran and his team may be working toward a tree / wood throne.

When the Baratheon court visits Winterfell, GRRM makes a big point of telling us that the Stark boys are permitted to use only wooden swords. Joffrey scoffs at this. In one of his few "tourney" scenes, Bran is paired for a joust with Tommen by Ser Rodrik Cassel.

Later, when Joffrey's name day tournament has fallen apart, Tommen wants to joust and he is set up with a jousting dummy made of hay. The dummy spins around and knocks him off his pony - a defeat for Tommen, in ASOIAF tourney symbolism. I have this inkling that the hay jousting dummy is part of Team Bran, who is uniquely bonded with the plant kingdom. Bran also has a personal guard name Hayhead. To me, if feels as if there is some kind of hint here that Bran will replace or defeat Tommen in the game of thrones.

Interestingly, Brienne's hair is always described as looking like straw. Could be a sign that she will be the big person (after Hodor) who pairs up with Bran to create a true knight.

Not 100% sure, but I don't think so.

Tommen seems to have animal magic - the pet fawn that Joffrey skins and turns into a vest (Buffalo Baratheon in Silence of the Fawns?) and the kittens. In his rivalry with Bran, maybe the catspaw would-be assassin is even symbolically part of Tommen's animal kingdom. And Tommen doesn't like to eat beets - a plant, associated with the underworld and with Bran, who sends a plate of root vegetables to the Walders at the Winterfell harvest feast. Again, I think the magic that Bran is accumulating will tend to be of the wooden sword, hay, root and beet variety, not the skinchanging-all-animals variety.

Granted, Bran wargs the direwolf Summer. And he takes a sword from the Winterfell crypt. Not sure how those fit into this Plant Kingdom theory for Bran's future.

One of the symbolic ways that Bran accumulates magic is when the direwolf Summer eats the flesh of an animal or person that embodies certain qualities. Other wargs and skinchangers probably also participate in this, but we get a number of instances of this in Bran POVs and Jojen warning Bran that he can't survive on food Summer ingests while Bran is warging. But Bran really seems to like it.

So Bran's journey to become a knight (and/or whatever else is in his future) is advanced by consuming people who offer qualities he needs.

Complicating this is Jojen's green dream about water flowing over the walls of Winterfell. If you buy into the wordplay approach to literary analysis, "wolf" and "flow" (flower, flour) are part of the same group of symbols (along with "fowl"). When Alebelly, Septon Chayle and the blacksmith Mikken are "drowned" by the flow of Ironborn over the wall in Jojen's dream, their qualities may be some of the first "kills" absorbed by Bran in his quest to accumulate magic.

Maybe we can compare this to the great knight Ser Clarence Crabb accumulating the heads of defeated foes and bringing them back to his seat to advise him in his ongoing responsibilities.

You always give me a head full to ponder and I appreciate the time you took to write another clarification for my benefit.  You still rock. 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hodor has a great sword taken from the crypts.  This is the point of the OP, Bran wants to be a knight and has seen his dream come true in controlling Hodor. 

Yeah he can wield a sword and fight just fine, but he's also been missing out on his master-at-arms training, and I don't see him being trained by anyone while warging Hodor. The guy's a half-wit, even when Bran seizes him he can't form words other than Hodor which would make training a nightmare.

Also, warging your buddy isn't very knightly! 

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Yeah he can wield a sword and fight just fine, but he's also been missing out on his master-at-arms training, and I don't see him being trained by anyone while warging Hodor. The guy's a half-wit, even when Bran seizes him he can't form words other than Hodor which would make training a nightmare.

Also, warging your buddy isn't very knightly! 

Can't really argue with that. But, Martin has a reason for it happening so perhaps we shall all see.  

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:05 AM, Seams said:

Another hint may come from Gregor Clegane, who is a puppet knight operated by (I believe) Tywin Lannister. BUT he was knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen. We don't know the identity of the old man who made the marionette toy that Sandor Clegane tried to play with. In keeping with the rebirth pattern, readers have been led to believe that Ser Gregor died and was beheaded but that his headless body continues to function as a member of the King's Guard.

This is funny because the portion of the books that feature Ser Robert Strong always put me in mind of Hodor. Bran could take control of a body that does not (I assume) have a mind that would issue protest...

Morally speaking, if Bran begins to feel guilty for taking control of Hodor and refuses to do it anymore, would Strong provide him a loophole?

My brain then wants to go down the avenue of “what else is there to Qyburn and his backstory”?

His proximity to the Gods Eye always made me hope that he is an older Bran, somehow back from the future. He has figured out how to reanimate his own broken legs and does the same to the Mountain, but on a much larger scale. 
 

Crackpot with no evidence anywhere I can think of. LOL. The death/crow/Bran/Qyburn connection is more interesting than meets the eye. 
 

Fun to think about if nothing else.

Bring on the chastisement! I expect it and am waiting 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

My brain then wants to go down the avenue of “what else is there to Qyburn and his backstory”?

The more I read and re-read, the more I think Qyburn is a major player. I think we need to look for sorcerers (I think GRRM calls them warlocks, however) and figure out what their motives are in the Game of Thrones.

This may be off-topic, but I think there are "cyvasse" moves or characters or powers that have not been spelled out for us. The puppet knight may be one of them. Grumkins (grants wishes, swaps babies, can make a sword magical) may be another. I think Bloodraven has used a number of unique moves to be the champion cyvasse / Game of Thrones player: the Great Spring Sickness was one of his boldest plays, I believe.

I suspect that Qyburn is another major player with strategies and hidden moves of which we have not yet plumbed the depths. He essentially replaces Pycelle when Lannister gameplay shifts from Tywin to Cersei. Why?

I guess this needs its own thread, if people are interested.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

@Seams on the warlock/sorcerer line - I think you are right.There is more to be unpacked. 

I always felt like the citadel are more involved too. I wonder why some of the surviving mummers were heading for Oldtown. Methinks their crypto boss might live there.