What were Dany's biggest mistakes in Slaver's Bay

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Second, there are also former slavers that were pardoned and assumed a new role in a slave-free society. They are called the shavepates.

Yeah that's my point. The slavers should not be eliminated, they should be integrated like the shavepates are

[frenin]

Not confiscating their fortunes, taking children hostages.

She made several mistakes that have already been covered up, or will in the thread. But letting them remain insanely rich was stupid, taking hostages she knew she could not kill was even worse. I'm glad she did not kill the kids, but she shouuld have taken adult ones.

In general not being too ruthless, Dany must've been the only ruler in ASOIAF's history that overpowered her enemies to almost a comic level, knew perfectly who her enemies were and where they were and hoe to find to find them and still dailed to act due fear.

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah that's my point. The slavers should not be eliminated, they should be integrated like the shavepates are

Except they didn't want to and used their own KKK to blackmail Dany into meeting their terms... And strangely enough it worked.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now that's all well and good, but here's the thing. She needs the former slavers to be a part of the new society, in some capacity. The former slaves lack the proper education (for obvious reasons) to engage in several key fields, such as high level craftsmanship, most bureaucratic jobs and basically everything that requires a high level of education. So if she wanted to build something sustainable, nuking the slavers would not have been the solution. Confiscating their fortunes however could have worked, as it would mean that those former slavers that were necessary would now have more incentive to work and those who weren't would have no power what so ever.

There are highly-skilled slaves such as scribes, healers, priests, expert craftsmen etc.  The Slaver class is essentially parasitic. 

Her mistakes are obvious.  She was nowhere near ruthless enough in her dealings with the Slaver class.  She left them in a position to threaten and injure the Freedmen, and to re-enslave them. She ought to have destroyed the Wise Masters of Yunkai, the moment she learned they were intriguing with Volantis and the Dothraki.  She ought, at the very least, to have asset-stripped the Great Masters of Meereen, and redistributed their wealth to the freedmen.  She ought to have used her soldiers to thoroughly search the homes of ex-slavers for weapons, and confiscated them.  She sought peace with people for whom "peace" means the right to murder, rob, rape, and traffic in people for their own profit and amusement. Compared to people in real life, like Jean Dessalines, or William Sherman, Daenerys has been laughably lenient towards her enemies.

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But it's not really. The only ones who have freedom right now are the Mereenese. She failed in providing that much freedom, and the war in ongoing. For now she failed way more then the Americans did int eh Reconstruction. There Jim Crow laws existed, but slavery still ended. Dany cannot boast of that

That would be like concluding that Winston Churchill was a failure, based on the state of Europe in 1941.  The war in Slavers Bay hangs in the balance. It does look as if the Slavers are about to suffer a major defeat at Meereen, however.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Except they didn't want to and used their own KKK to blackmail Dany into meeting their terms... And strangely enough it worked.

Quite.  The Slavers were offered a wonderful deal.  Accept the new order, and you keep your lives, wealth, and a good part of your political power.  Some of them, like the Shavepate, saw the sense of that.  The rest looked a gift-horse in the mouth.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That would be like concluding that Winston Churchill was a failure, based on the state of Europe in 1941.  The war in Slavers Bay hangs in the balance. It does look as if the Slavers are about to suffer a major defeat at Meereen, however.

Not really, Churchill stepped in when France was already lost. It's more like saying Chamberlin was a failure, and I mean, he was

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah that's my point. The slavers should not be eliminated, they should be integrated like the shavepates are

It's clear in the text that most of the slavers didn't want to relinquish their positions neither abjure of slavery.

[SeanF]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not really, Churchill stepped in when France was already lost. It's more like saying Chamberlin was a failure, and I mean, he was

And Chamberlin's error was the same as Daenerys'.  Trying to appease the unappeasable. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, SeanF said:

Quite.  The Slavers were offered a wonderful deal.  Accept the new order, and you keep your lives, wealth, and a good part of your political power.  Some of them, like the Shavepate, saw the sense of that.  The rest looked a gift-horse in the mouth.

A wonderful deal compared to what they deserved, that's true. It's a matter of perspective, however. Most saw slavery as normal and natural and felt that the things Dany did were upsetting the natural order of things. Now obviously that's wrong and evil, but again it's a matter of perspective. It was obvious most will take that route. The way I see it, Dany could have clamped down harder on them, keeping them only were they were needed. She was gonna piss them off regardless, might as well keep their power at a minimum.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

And Chamberlin's error was the same as Daenerys'.  Trying to appease the unappeasable. 

Possibly, though if she wanted to keep the slavers decently integrated in the system, some appeasement was necessary. 

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

A wonderful deal compared to what they deserved, that's true. It's a matter of perspective, however. Most saw slavery as normal and natural and felt that the things Dany did were upsetting the natural order of things. Now obviously that's wrong and evil, but again it's a matter of perspective. It was obvious most will take that route. The way I see it, Dany could have clamped down harder on them, keeping them only were they were needed. She was gonna piss them off regardless, might as well keep their power at a minimum.

Agreed.

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now that's all well and good, but here's the thing. She needs the former slavers to be a part of the new society, in some capacity. The former slaves lack the proper education (for obvious reasons) to engage in several key fields, such as high level craftsmanship, most bureaucratic jobs and basically everything that requires a high level of education. So if she wanted to build something sustainable, nuking the slavers would not have been the solution. Confiscating their fortunes however could have worked, as it would mean that those former slavers that were necessary would now have more incentive to work and those who weren't would have no power what so ever.

That makes sense, they could work from within the great pyramid, she could even offer some of them positions in her small council.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It was just fire mania "CANT YOU SEE?!?!?!?!?!" (A character narrating their thoughts in all caps is a bad sign).

No, it's not. At least not in this case. It was written in all caps because it's a clue from GRRM, he wanted readers to notice what mystery he has hidden there. "CAN'T YOU SEE?" is what GRRM asked readers.

[Roswell]

21 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

None.  She didn't make any big mistakes in Slaver's Bay.  The reason why there is still unrest is because the masters and their terrorists arm, the Harpy, are resisting.  Daenerys is doing the right thing.  Some may say she was being too soft on the masters and the Ghiscari but it is good to try giving them a chance to make the right choice.  It is clear now that they are not going to do that, so it is time for a large scale Dracarys. 

I do not believe any other leader, Tywin included, could have handled Slaver's Bay any better.  Jon Snow certainly could not.  I mean he couldn't handle a few thousand people at the wall.  Robb would have cried himself to sleep and wet his bed after one week in Slaver's Bay.  The liberation of millions and the campaign to end a brutal slaving practice that had been in place for over a thousand years is not going to happen smoothly. 

I don't believe she made big mistakes.  She handled this situation like any other feudal/medieval warlord would.  Which is to beat the enemy in battle and then rule over them as soon as they surrender.  That is how things are done in Westeros.  Her ancestors did the same thing.  All those men you listed would have done the same thing.  Beat the enemy on the battle field, they yield and agree to be led, and then they are basically left to carry on as before.  There is no training for world-building.  It will not go smoothly.  There will be a lot of growing pains along the way.  Much will have to be learned through trial and error.  She needs to get rid of the slave masters once and for all.  Do that so this trial, error, and success process can continue without interference from those who would bring slavery back. 

[Nevets]

163 masters:  This event really poisoned the well for her relationship with the slavers.  I would guess that many of those chosen had little or nothing to do with the atrocities Daenerys was punishing, and their families are going to hate her for what they likiely feel is unfair treatment.  Much better to find out who is really responsible, and punish them.  All this did was get things started out on a bad footing.

Hostages:  The youngsters she has as cupbearers are regarded as hostages by practically everybody, except Daenerys herself.  If you have what are essentially hostages, treat them as such.  You don't need to kill them, but at the very least she should have made threats to harm them (beatings, whippings, etc.) even if she didn't actually carry them out or only made a token effort. Her failure to even make threats is going to be perceived as weakness, and that she can ill afford.

Floppy ears:  Take off the floppy ears.  Dany is regarded as a foreign, barbarian conqueror.  She needs to act and dress like one.  Don't try to pretend you are one of the locals. She isn't, and never will be.  Act like you are the boss instead.

While not necessarily a mistake, it is worth noting that the economy of Meereen is based on the slave trade itself. This makes it very difficult to transition to a paid labor economy.  They have way too many slaves whose skills are not in demand locally, which means that they have no real income coming in,which has caused the economy to collapse. I'm not sure there is a real solution to this, although previous suggestions of wealth confiscation from the masters are probably a good idea. But a more sure footing for the economy would need to be found.

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

163 masters:  This event really poisoned the well for her relationship with the slavers.  I would guess that many of those chosen had little or nothing to do with the atrocities Daenerys was punishing, and their families are going to hate her for what they likiely feel is unfair treatment.  Much better to find out who is really responsible, and punish them.  All this did was get things started out on a bad footing.

This innocent slavers idea really needs to go away. She ordered the Great Masters to hand over 163 of their LEADERS. If the leaders weren't responsible for using crucified slave children as sign posts, who were?

Besides, this isn't why they're resisting Daenerys' rule. They oppose her because they don't want to let go of slaving.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

163 masters:  This event really poisoned the well for her relationship with the slavers.  I would guess that many of those chosen had little or nothing to do with the atrocities Daenerys was punishing, and their families are going to hate her for what they likiely feel is unfair treatment.  Much better to find out who is really responsible, and punish them.  All this did was get things started out on a bad footing

How would you guess that when that's not even hinted in the books??

[Rose of Red Lake]

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, it's not. At least not in this case. It was written in all caps because it's a clue from GRRM, he wanted readers to notice what mystery he has hidden there. "CAN'T YOU SEE?" is what GRRM asked readers.

It's also the character's thoughts, as they are. In her head she's just as nutty about fire as Cersei watching the TotH burn, just as manic as Selyse who is happy to jump into one. Getting a spell correct might be exhilirating to start but I think its unfolding as a horror story. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

Don't try to pretend you are one of the locals. She isn't, and never will be.  Act like you are the boss instead.

Usually a boss stays in their job for the long haul though? Instead she concludes Meereen will never be her home. She doesnt have to be a Harpy but if abolition really mattered to her, whatever squishy feels Viserys put in her about "home" shouldn't even be a factor in her decisions. Agree with you on the 163 thing though. The number of leaders who planned the child crucifixions is likely to be less than 163, based on how the Yunkai have different responses to her. Also every single person in the same social class ordering child crucifixions is so cartoonishly evil. Also super neat and tidy for Dany if her random guess is exactly correct. So not only does she guess at magical spells and hits the lotto, she also guesses right in the exact amount of justice served even when its randomly applied? Its just so much perfect luck, I cant see how this continues.

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Usually a boss stays in their job for the long haul though? Instead she concludes Meereen will never be her home. She doesnt have to be a Harpy but if abolition really mattered to her, whatever squishy feels Viserys put in her about "home" shouldn't even be a factor in her decisions. Agree with you on the 163 thing though. The number of leaders who planned the child crucifixions is likely to be less than 163, based on how the Yunkai have different responses to her. Also every single person in the same social class ordering child crucifixions is so cartoonishly evil. Also super neat and tidy for Dany if her random guess is exactly correct. So not only does she guess at magical spells and hits the lotto, she also guesses right in the exact amount of justice served even when its randomly applied? Its just so much perfect luck, I cant see how this continues.

 It's not a random number, it's an eye for an eye. 163 grand masters for 163 crucified child slaves. How exactly were the child slaves chosen, were they guilty of being bad slaves?  The grand masters are described as the rulers of the city, so it's certainly possible for them to have made a collective decision or at least to have collective responsibility. I'm uncomfortable with the mass crucifixions of the masters but It's to Dany's credit that she looked at every one of those child slaves and was filled with righteous anger on their behalf.