Is Varys the main villain?

[butterweedstrover]

I think Euron will be the night king of the books (dragon binding horn) but the philosophical villain will be Varys. 

I read one person say they think Varys is one of GRRM's secret heros and that woke the dragon in me. 

Lets recap. He self-righteously lectures Ned about not being noble because small folk die. 

But this series isn't about lords hypocritically wielding chivalry and honor at the expense of the common folk (a very contemporary outlook), it's about nobility acting with honor as a symbol for their people. 

Now lets see his interaction with Ilyrio. He wants more slave children with tongues cut out to serve as him. 

He uses them to kill Kevan, a man he openly says will help bind the realm together. (PS. remember Ned said to Bran the one who gives the sentence should hold the axe)

Why? Because he is a blackfyre and his sister (called Septa Lemore) is married to Ilyrio and their child Young Griff is an excuse to take back the throne. 

Why did they support Viserys when they knew he was mad? Because they wanted him to lead a bunch of dothraki to burn the realm so YG can come in as the hero. 

He is a delusional hypocrite who thinks using common folk who don't want power makes him more righteous than others. 

Rhaegar wanted to overthrow his father at Harrenhall (peacefully) but Varys couldn't allow for peace (just like in Kevan's case) so he told Aerys insuring war. 

He took in the real Aegon and gave him away to the house of black and white and had him arrested when he came looking for his support. 

He did nothing to help Ned depose of Joffrey (now that would have been good for the realm).  

He set Tyrion up by making it look like Shae was sleeping with his father so he's kill her

He is worse than littlefingers and I hope he meets his death with blood and fire. 

 

[Lord Varys]

Nope.

[Groo]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I think Euron will be the night king of the books (dragon binding horn) but the philosophical villain will be Varys. 

I read one person say they think Varys is one of GRRM's secret heros and that woke the dragon in me. 

Lets recap. He self-righteously lectures Ned about not being noble because small folk die. 

But this series isn't about lords hypocritically wielding chivalry and honor at the expense of the common folk (a very contemporary outlook), it's about nobility acting with honor as a symbol for their people. 

Now lets see his interaction with Ilyrio. He wants more slave children with tongues cut out to serve as him. 

He uses them to kill Kevan, a man he openly says will help bind the realm together. (PS. remember Ned said to Bran the one who gives the sentence should hold the axe)

Why? Because he is a blackfyre and his sister (called Septa Lemore) is married to Ilyrio and their child Young Griff is an excuse to take back the throne. 

Why did they support Viserys when they knew he was mad? Because they wanted him to lead a bunch of dothraki to burn the realm so YG can come in as the hero. 

He is a delusional hypocrite who thinks using common folk who don't want power makes him more righteous than others. 

Rhaegar wanted to overthrow his father at Harrenhall (peacefully) but Varys couldn't allow for peace (just like in Kevan's case) so he told Aerys insuring war. 

He took in the real Aegon and gave him away to the house of black and white and had him arrested when he came looking for his support. 

He did nothing to help Ned depose of Joffrey (now that would have been good for the realm). 

He is worse than littlefingers and I hope he meets his death with blood and fire. 

 

Even if I take all of these assertions at face value, how is this worse than Littlefinger? If there's any difference at least Varys isn't acting just for himself. Varys is trying to get someone else on the throne. Littlefinger is out for himself. 

[butterweedstrover]

20 minutes ago, Groo said:

Even if I take all of these assertions at face value, how is this worse than Littlefinger? If there's any difference at least Varys isn't acting just for himself. Varys is trying to get someone else on the throne. Littlefinger is out for himself. 

We don't really know what LF is up to and at least he is honest with himself. 

[Eltharion21]

4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I think Euron will be the night king of the books (dragon binding horn) but the philosophical villain will be Varys. 

I read one person say they think Varys is one of GRRM's secret heros and that woke the dragon in me. 

Lets recap. He self-righteously lectures Ned about not being noble because small folk die. 

But this series isn't about lords hypocritically wielding chivalry and honor at the expense of the common folk (a very contemporary outlook), it's about nobility acting with honor as a symbol for their people. 

Now lets see his interaction with Ilyrio. He wants more slave children with tongues cut out to serve as him. 

He uses them to kill Kevan, a man he openly says will help bind the realm together. (PS. remember Ned said to Bran the one who gives the sentence should hold the axe)

Why? Because he is a blackfyre and his sister (called Septa Lemore) is married to Ilyrio and their child Young Griff is an excuse to take back the throne. 

Why did they support Viserys when they knew he was mad? Because they wanted him to lead a bunch of dothraki to burn the realm so YG can come in as the hero. 

He is a delusional hypocrite who thinks using common folk who don't want power makes him more righteous than others. 

Rhaegar wanted to overthrow his father at Harrenhall (peacefully) but Varys couldn't allow for peace (just like in Kevan's case) so he told Aerys insuring war. 

He took in the real Aegon and gave him away to the house of black and white and had him arrested when he came looking for his support. 

He did nothing to help Ned depose of Joffrey (now that would have been good for the realm). 

He is worse than littlefingers and I hope he meets his death with blood and fire. 

 

I agree especially considering he was serving during the reign of Mad King, and his corruptive influence effected many things - as quoted from the wiki:

Quote

As a spymaster in King's Landing, Varys's influence grew with Aerys's increasing paranoia. According to Ser Barristan Selmy, "the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys".[23] Varys was always quick to point out any traitors Aerys might have missed.

It is very odd that he was allowed to remain in his position after Robert took the throne, he should have sent to wall at least or executed.

I would also  add that he likely manipulated Tyrion into killing his father by sending Shae to Tywin before setting him free. 

His downfall might come from Tyrion, Mockingbird, or maybe some moment similar to "Hour of the Wolf".

[TheLastWolf]

No. 

It's Patchface 

The 

JOKER clown 

(Evil laugh) 

[broken one]

assesing by speech to Kevan (in fact - to readers) from aDwD epilogue Varys believes he is savior. I think Lenin also believed he was savior, but from the perspective of time I think he was wrong XD

you'll know him by his fruits

[butterweedstrover]

5 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I agree especially considering he was serving during the reign of Mad King, and his corruptive influence effected many things - as quoted from the wiki:

It is very odd that he was allowed to remain in his position after Robert took the throne, he should have sent to wall at least or executed.

I would also  add that he likely manipulated Tyrion into killing his father by sending Shae to Tywin before setting him free. 

His downfall might come from Tyrion, Mockingbird, or maybe some moment similar to "Hour of the Wolf".

Yes, I should add that to the list. 

He set Shae up, Tywin was never sleeping with her. Tyrion came up from the secret passage beside the hearth while Tywin was in the privy on the otherside of the room. 

Shae saw someone come from that direction and thought it was Varys or "my lord".

[Arthur Peres]

Varys agenda seems to be Aegon VI on the throne, this makes him a antagonist to Daenerys, but not a final villan, If anything Varys seems lesser of a threat than LF or Euron, he is not a failure proff.

Varys tried to delay the war at the start of the books, but failed, he and Ilyrion has been changing plans and set ups at each step of the way, is a journey towards failure.

Quote

“The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys,” Lemore was saying.

“That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone.”

“Illyrio could not have been expected to know that the girl would choose to remain at Slaver’s Bay.”

“No more than he knew that the Beggar King would die young, or that Khal Drogo would follow him into the grave. Very little of what the fat man has anticipated has come to pass.” Griff slapped the hilt of his longsword with a gloved hand. “I have danced to the fat man’s pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us?

 

[CamiloRP]

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I think Euron will be the night king of the books (dragon binding horn) but the philosophical villain will be Varys. 

Euron is possibly the most evil character in ASOIAF. But i doubt there will be a night king in the books.

 

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Lets recap. He self-righteously lectures Ned about not being noble because small folk die. 

But this series isn't about lords hypocritically wielding chivalry and honor at the expense of the common folk (a very contemporary outlook), it's about nobility acting with honor as a symbol for their people. 

That's your interpretation of the series, but it's about a bunch of things, it's about how revenge is a never ending cycle, it's about the US intervention in the middle east, it's about perspective, unity, discrimination, it's about how we all have a bit of evil and a bit of good in us, it's about how war is "bad" and how when lords play at it, people die.

 

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Why? Because he is a blackfyre and his sister (called Septa Lemore) is married to Ilyrio and their child Young Griff is an excuse to take back the throne.  

That's... a whole bunch of speculation, which isn't a problem, but you seem to be taking it as fact, and the fact is, we don't know.

 

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

He took in the real Aegon and gave him away to the house of black and white and had him arrested when he came looking for his support. 

What? Where did you get that?

 

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

He set Tyrion up by making it look like Shae was sleeping with his father so he's kill her

Again, what? I mean, it could be, but what?

 

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

He is worse than littlefingers and I hope he meets his death with blood and fire. 

I mean, don't get me wrong, Varys isn't a good guy, he does not care about people suffering as long as he gets what he wants. But Petyr is the same. Varys killed Kevan and Pycelle? Baelish killed Jon Arryn, using poison, which in the Stark code of honor is as bad as not doing the did yourself (to me murder is murder tho) he killed Dontos, his ally, which is way worse, he killed his wife, wich, like, kinslaying is really bad, again, for me murder is murder, but you seem to value the Stark mindset. He's also conspiring to murder some of the Lords Declarant . Varys wanted the Dothraki to destroy Westeros? Baelish wanted the same thing but with Westermen, Riverlanders and Northeners, and he succeeded, so he's worse. Varys supported Aerys? Petyr supported Joffrey.

You say "Rhaegar wanted to overthrow his father at Harrenhall (peacefully) but Varys couldn't allow for peace (just like in Kevan's case) so he told Aerys insuring war."  Let's change it up a bit, shall we? "Ned wanted to overthrow Joffrey at King's Landing (peacefully) but Littlefinger couldn't allow for peace so he told Cersei and betrayed Ned with the goldcloaks insuring war." (Also, some people believe he's the reason Joffrey ordered for Ned to be beheaded. I love that theory, but let's not take it as fact.) 

You also say: "He did nothing to help Ned depose of Joffrey (now that would have been good for the realm). " well, in LF's case it's worse than not doing anything.

He also did a lot of other evil things, too many to remember, but one of the most brutal ones was forcing Jayne Pool into prostitution and then selling her to Ramsay Bolton of all people.

 

Again, I'm not saying LF is worse than Varys. I believe both are equally capable of the same amount of evil shit.

[butterweedstrover]

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Euron is possibly the most evil character in ASOIAF. But i doubt there will be a night king in the books.

Not the actual night king, I mean the role the night king played in the books (the big bad). He will take at least one dragon, etc.

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

That's your interpretation of the series, but it's about a bunch of things, it's about how revenge is a never ending cycle, it's about the US intervention in the middle east, it's about perspective, unity, discrimination, it's about how we all have a bit of evil and a bit of good in us, it's about how war is "bad" and how when lords play at it, people die.

we will see by the end of the series what is what. 

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, Varys isn't a good guy, he does not care about people suffering as long as he gets what he wants. But Petyr is the same. Varys killed Kevan and Pycelle? Baelish killed Jon Arryn, using poison, which in the Stark code of honor is as bad as not doing the did yourself (to me murder is murder tho) he killed Dontos, his ally, which is way worse, he killed his wife, wich, like, kinslaying is really bad, again, for me murder is murder, but you seem to value the Stark mindset. He's also conspiring to murder some of the Lords Declarant . Varys wanted the Dothraki to destroy Westeros? Baelish wanted the same thing but with Westermen, Riverlanders and Northeners, and he succeeded, so he's worse. Varys supported Aerys? Petyr supported Joffrey. 

Baelish is honest about who he is, Varys is a hypocrite

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

You say "Rhaegar wanted to overthrow his father at Harrenhall (peacefully) but Varys couldn't allow for peace (just like in Kevan's case) so he told Aerys insuring war."  Let's change it up a bit, shall we? "Ned wanted to overthrow Joffrey at King's Landing (peacefully) but Littlefinger couldn't allow for peace so he told Cersei and betrayed Ned with the goldcloaks insuring war." (Also, some people believe he's the reason Joffrey ordered for Ned to be beheaded. I love that theory, but let's not take it as fact.)  

Littlefinger is in it for himself. Varys says he cares about the realm but he lies.

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

He also did a lot of other evil things, too many to remember, but one of the most brutal ones was forcing Jayne Pool into prostitution and then selling her to Ramsay Bolton of all people. 

Who? Baelish? He did no such thing. 

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Again, I'm not saying LF is worse than Varys. I believe both are equally capable of the same amount of evil shit. 

Being self righteous is worse than being self indulgent. 

[GoldenGail3]

No. That would be Cersei right now. Most powerful person in the realm, regentness, lady of Casterly Rock, she's gunna do more terrible things in the future. I foresee much blood and terror from Cersie's insane rule where she very well might end up blowing up King's Landing. 

[CamiloRP]

39 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not the actual night king, I mean the role the night king played in the books (the big bad). He will take at least one dragon, etc.

Oh. I get it. He will probably steal a dragon, sure, but given how George writes, I doubt there will be one character that's "The Big Bad Evil Guy". His writing is a lot more complex than that.

 

44 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

we will see by the end of the series what is what. 

The theme of art isn't just stated in the end. Also it can mean whatever you read into it, not just what the artist wants it to mean. But since you where using the theme as proof that a character is evil, we need t consider the author's opinion of it's theme. Granted, he hasn't stated it, I doubt he ever will, but given all that has happened in the series, all the ravages we've seen of war affecting the smallfolk while the lords don't care, all the times the text has said that for the smallfolk the Westermen and Northeners are just as bad, because both rape, murder and steal, I really doubt the theme as intented by George to be "If a noble is honorable, he must be good and his people must be good." No. Randyll Tarly is honorable by all accounts, and he's an asshole. Jonothor Darry let Rhaella be raped and brutalized for hi honor. Sandor Clegane's murder of Micah was what his honor required of him. Jaime's most dishonorable deed was saving the lives of millions. Even Robb. He puts honor before his people's well being, and as a result of that, his people died. Jon tho, he doesn't care about his honor more than the common good.

 

56 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Baelish is honest about who he is, Varys is a hypocrite

So is hypocrisy the worst thing here? We are talking about rape, murder, slavery and hypocrisy is what tips the scales?

 

58 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Littlefinger is in it for himself. Varys says he cares about the realm but he lies.

Varys is in it for YG, isn't that better that being in it for yourself? If lying is the problem, LF does it all the fucking time.

 

59 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Who? Baelish? He did no such thing. 

He did. Cersei learned in AGOT that Jeyne Poole was being kept in Sansa's room, so she asked for her to be removed. Little Finger jumped at the posibility and said he would take care of it, as the wiki says:

Quote

With Jeyne's father having died in the massacre, the whimpering girl is given over to Lord Petyr Baelish, who says he will find a place for her.

She then is given to the Lannisters by Baelish:

Quote

Queen Cersei Lannister recalls that Lord Petyr Baelish dressed up a steward's whelp and claimed she was Arya Stark, sent to marry Ramsay.

And then, in Dance:

Quote

When Ramsay asks her if she knows how to please a man, Jeyne replies fearfully that she has had training, implying that she had been kept in one of Petyr Baelish's brothels.

 

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Being self righteous is worse than being self indulgent. 

Well, that's like, your opinion man.

But joking aside, if your "self indulgence" is a murderous self indulgence that leads you to cause the deaths of thousands, including two women you claim to love, one of which you are married to, I think it's way worse than claiming to do things for the good of the realm but actually doing it for your own sake. After all, Tyrion did the same thing. He claimed he wanted a better realm, but he did it for people to love him, and once he realized they wouldn't, he started to desire to kill them all.

[Megorova]

I think that the main villain is Shiera Seastar/Quaithe/the Three-Eyed Crow.

Varys, becoming who he is now, is partially her doing. It's likely that the fire-mage, who mutilated Varys, was working for Shiera.

In my opinion Littlefinger in the past used to be one of Varys' agents, so whatever methods LF is using now to get power for himself, he learned from Varys.

Also, I'm sure that Euron was one of Shiera's apprentices, she was teaching magic to him. She is the Three-Eyed Crow, and Euron's nickname is the Crow's Eye, he is her third eye, they are connected by blood magic thru his black/blood eye.

I think that even fAegon's birth was orchestrated by Shiera. I think that fAegon's parents are Septa Lemore/Jeyne Swann and Barristan Selmy, and that when fAegon was conceived, on the same night when the real Aegon was conceived by Elia and Rhaegar at King's Landing, when a comet (supposedly an omen of the Promised Prince from the prophecy) was passing in the sky above King's Landing, this comet was also seen from the Kingswood's area, where the Kingswood Brotherhood attacked Jeyne and her septa, who then were saved by Barristan. I think that that septa was actually Shiera/Quaithe in shadow glamour, and that she prepared a love potion and gave it to Jeyne, who used it to seduce Barristan and to conceive a child with him. I'm sure that Barristan is a Blackfyre, most likely, Barristan's mother was a daughter of Aenys Blackfyre. Shiera knew about Barristan's origin, and she needed to produce a child with dragonseed genes, thus she used Barristan to make fAegon. Shiera conspired with Varys (who is a Blackfyre), who conspired with the Kingswood Brotherhood (KB's leader, Simon Toyne, most likely was a brother of Myles Toyne, captain-general of Golden Company. Varys is a Blackfyre, so Golden Company was working for him, and thus both Simon and Myles also were working for Varys. And Shiera's / (Jeyne's septa's) presence there at the time of KB's attack, is an evidence that Varys and Shiera conspired together to created a Blackfyre child, who will become the Promised Prince). There's a long story there, and it's not exactly relevant for this thread. Though, when later it will be confirmed in the books, I will then elaborate more on this topic.

The point is - Shiera Seastar is an orchestrator and mastermind behind all major events in the series, or she's the one who strongly influenced major players of the Game of Thrones. Shiera binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood. The Summerhall's tragedy most likely also was her doing. She's the one who sent Dany to conquer Slavers Bay with that "to go west, go east". Mirri Maz Duur was Shiera's apprentice, so Rhaego's kidnapping is also Shiera's doing. Could be that Meggy the Frog also was working for Shiera, and on her command gave to Cersei that prophecy about Valonqar, and getting married with the King, and giving birth to not her husband's children, and the coming of a younger more beautiful, who will replace Cersei. Mance Raider deserting from Night's Watch is also Shiera's influence (it's likely that she is that healer, that sewn his cloack with red silk, and with magic influenced him to go and gather all wildlings into a single tribe, to later oppose the Others). Etc., etc., etc. So everything is Shiera's fault, and even Varys seems to be not a Spider, but rather just a fly, that got into Shiera's web. I think that she done all of that for the sake of the greater good, to orchestrate people and events in a way that eventually will lead to destruction of the Others and survival of the humankind.

[butterweedstrover]

25 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Oh. I get it. He will probably steal a dragon, sure, but given how George writes, I doubt there will be one character that's "The Big Bad Evil Guy". His writing is a lot more complex than that.

I agree

Quote

The theme of art isn't just stated in the end. Also it can mean whatever you read into it, not just what the artist wants it to mean. But since you where using the theme as proof that a character is evil, we need t consider the author's opinion of it's theme. Granted, he hasn't stated it, I doubt he ever will, but given all that has happened in the series, all the ravages we've seen of war affecting the smallfolk while the lords don't care, all the times the text has said that for the smallfolk the Westermen and Northeners are just as bad, because both rape, murder and steal, I really doubt the theme as intented by George to be "If a noble is honorable, he must be good and his people must be good." No. Randyll Tarly is honorable by all accounts, and he's an asshole. Jonothor Darry let Rhaella be raped and brutalized for hi honor. Sandor Clegane's murder of Micah was what his honor required of him. Jaime's most dishonorable deed was saving the lives of millions. Even Robb. He puts honor before his people's well being, and as a result of that, his people died. Jon tho, he doesn't care about his honor more than the common good.

Well Honor is only one factor. GRRM does talk about practical leadership but he also seems to respect an established moral system for people to base themselves on. 

For example the problem with Jaime is not that he is a kingsguard so he is sworn to serve the king even if that means doing evil, but conflict between two of his different oaths. 

There was his oath to the white cloaks, but there was also his oath to knighthood swearing to protect the weak and innocent. Honor is in conflict, it is not a abusive order that ruins practical reason. 

Quote

So is hypocrisy the worst thing here? We are talking about rape, murder, slavery and hypocrisy is what tips the scales?

Littlefingers is really not that bad. He uses institutions of murder/slavery that will still exist whether he utilizes them or not. Varys literally is in charge of a slave network.

Quote

Varys is in it for YG, isn't that better that being in it for yourself? If lying is the problem, LF does it all the fucking time.

Is he? I think he supports YG because he know he will never be king. LF lies to others but not to himself. 

Quote

He did. Cersei learned in AGOT that Jeyne Poole was being kept in Sansa's room, so she asked for her to be removed. Little Finger jumped at the posibility and said he would take care of it, as the wiki says:

She then is given to the Lannisters by Baelish:

Ok, you're right. 

Quote

 

Well, that's like, your opinion man.

But joking aside, if your "self indulgence" is a murderous self indulgence that leads you to cause the deaths of thousands, including two women you claim to love, one of which you are married to, I think it's way worse than claiming to do things for the good of the realm but actually doing it for your own sake. After all, Tyrion did the same thing. He claimed he wanted a better realm, but he did it for people to love him, and once he realized they wouldn't, he started to desire to kill them all.

Lets remember Catelyn got herself killed from being selfish and Ned did so by being stupid. LF gave them both an option out but when they decided to risk their own families he respected that decision and worked against them. He is like a force of nature, not judging, only reacting based off of what other people do. 

Same with Lysa. He doesn't force her to try and kill Sansa, he gives her that option (the kiss) and when Lysa embraces her worst desires he gives her what she deserves (death). 

Tyrion is short sighted, but people like Varys who considers himself judge and executioner are the worst. Baelish gives people choices and lets them bring themselves to their own doom. And he never judges or acts self-righteous.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Varys isn't the main villain. I don't think he registers super high on the scale of villains.

Euron is set to bring about the apocalypse. I think he will turn out to be the human champion of the Others, their Azor Ahai equivalent. Littlefinger's lies and machinations gave us the War of the Five Kings. Then we have the Tywin Lannisters and Gregor Cleganes and Ramsay Snows of the story.

Has Varys done bad things? Yes. He has. Every single character has done something that makes us question either their motives, their loyalty or their morals. But I personally don't believe Varys is lying about who YG is. And if he's telling the truth, then his character would have to be reevaluated, from what happened at Harrenhal, all the way down to the news of Rhaegar's death on the Trident.

[CamiloRP]

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well Honor is only one factor. GRRM does talk about practical leadership but he also seems to respect an established moral system for people to base themselves on. 

For example the problem with Jaime is not that he is a kingsguard so he is sworn to serve the king even if that means doing evil, but conflict between two of his different oaths. 

There was his oath to the white cloaks, but there was also his oath to knighthood swearing to protect the weak and innocent. Honor is in conflict, it is not a abusive order that ruins practical reason. 

Of course. Honor is just one factor. But claiming that the series is about "nobility acting with honor as a symbol for their people." or that a character is more evil for not being honorable is really disingenuous.

10 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Littlefingers is really not that bad. He uses institutions of murder/slavery that will still exist whether he utilizes them or not. Varys literally is in charge of a slave network.

He still murdered a lot of people that wouldn't have died if it wasn't for him, and he caused the WotFK, which is just as bad as Varys's dothraki plan. It's not that this thing would've happened either way. He had many choices for peace, help Ned, tell the truth to Robert while he was alive, negotiate peace between the Starks and the Lannisters before Ned was killed, not send the letter to Cat claiming the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. But no, he tried his hardest to cause war, death and destruction, just like Varys.

15 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Is he? I think he supports YG because he know he will never be king. LF lies to others but not to himself. 

Then why didn't he suported Joffrey? he was easy to control and gullible. Why didn't he suport Aerys? he was already under his control. Why didn't he supported Ned's cue? Ned is easy to manipulate and he's an expert manipulator.

We don't know weather Varys lies to himself or not. He may just claim that he does it "for the good of the realm" for shits and giggles. But again, is that really the worst thing he does? deceiving himself that he's the good guy? Most people are like that.

Also LF does lie to himself. He lies to himself about the woman that rejected him many times, gave her favor to Brandon in their duel, and shunned him after that loves him. 

 

20 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Lets remember Catelyn got herself killed from being selfish and Ned did so by being stupid. LF gave them both an option out but when they decided to risk their own families he respected that decision and worked against them. He is like a force of nature, not judging, only reacting based off of what other people do. 

It's starting to sound like you think LF's decisions where justifiable. Which they where not. Ned was stupid, but he didn't get himself killed, LF's betrayal and Joffrey killed him. Cat didn't get herself killed, she died for Robb's stubbornness. Again, he almost single handedly cause the WotFK, if he hadn't killed JA, sent the letter to Cat nor claim that the dagger was Tyrion's, there wouldn't have been a war. He killed Dontos, Arryn and Lysa. He tortured and murdered Marillion, and he seems to be trying to kill Sweet Robin. And he forced Jeyne into prostitution, and then feed her to the Boltons. He's not just reacting to other people's actions. He has a goal and he will do anything to achieve it, whatever it is.

27 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Same with Lysa. He doesn't force her to try and kill Sansa, he gives her that option (the kiss) and when Lysa embraces her worst desires he gives her what she deserves (death). 

How? Lysa let Sansa go. The situation was resolved peacefully. She just killed her because she didn't need her anymore. Also, you just said he doesn't judge, but now you are saying he gave Lysa what she deserved. Also also, why does Lyse desever Death?? I get that she threatened Sansa, but that's small potatoes compared to other stuff both her and LF have done.

 

37 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Tyrion is short sighted, but people like Varys who considers himself judge and executioner are the worst. Baelish gives people choices and lets them bring themselves to their own doom. And he never judges or acts self-righteous.

Tyrion does act as judge and executioner many times. Sending to the wall people who annoy him (religious fanatics) or political opponents (Janos Slynt and the goldcloaks) and he even orders the death of Allar Deem and Symon the bard, just 'cause. He also sends Pycelle to jail for talking to Cersei. 

And again you claim that "Baelish gives people choices and lets them bring themselves to their own doom." but that wasn't the case for Jon Arryn, Lysa, Dontos, Marillion, or even Ned.

And still you continue insisting that Self-rightheosness is the thing tap tips the scales between to mass murderers. It's nonsensical.

[DisneyDoc2425]

IMO Euron (along with an association with Cersei) will be the main villain of the story.  Followed closely behind by Quaithe, who while she may appear to be helping Dany, but will ultimately cause Dany's ruin by pushing Dany to fully accept and utilize/impose her Targaryen persona on the world focusing on dark/blood/fire magic. This was IMO the "truth" Quaithe wanted Dany to find in Asshai. Dark/Blood/Fire magic is the ultimate power in the world.

[Eltharion21]

14 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know weather Varys lies to himself or not. He may just claim that he does it "for the good of the realm" for shits and giggles. But again, is that really the worst thing he does? deceiving himself that he's the good guy? Most people are like that.

How bout buying little slave kids, having them loose their tongues, teaching them to skulk in the tunnels like rats and to kill on his command.

Is that evil enough for You? 

[CamiloRP]

5 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

How bout buying little slave kids, having them loose their tongues, teaching them to skulk in the tunnels like rats and to kill on his command.

Is that evil enough for You? 

I never claimed Varys wasn't evil. He is. He is really evil. But he's no more evil than LF, thats what I'm saying. He murdering Pycelle was evil enough for me.

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I mean, don't get me wrong, Varys isn't a good guy, he does not care about people suffering as long as he gets what he wants. But Petyr is the same.

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Again, I'm not saying LF is worse than Varys. I believe both are equally capable of the same amount of evil shit.