Is Varys the main villain?

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Groo said:

So the main series is 5,000 pages long. We've had 159 Stark POV chapters, 76 Lannister POV chapters, 31 Daenerys POV chapters, and 23 Greyjoy POV chapters. Yet your position is that this is really Shiera Seastar's story. She isn't mentioned by name in the main series and a single character mentions her once, in passing, in a single sentence. 

It's not her story, but she does play a prominent role, from the shadows, she's a spiritual guide, Dany's, and Bran's, and Jon's.

She appeared in this chapters:

AGOT, Bran III - "The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman".

In Bran's other dreams, with dead Ned in the crypts, and with Weirwood-Bloodraven in Jojen's green dreams.

In AGOT, Dany IX, she appeared as ghosts in red-black clothes, traditional coloring of Targaryen livery, faided rainment of kings, with Valyrian glass candle in her hands; as smiling and whispering stars; as wings and fire.

In ASOS she appeared to Dany on board of Balerion ship, and Dany thought that it was just a dream, until the same thing happened in Meereen, in ADWD, Dany II.

In ADWD, Dany X - " "Where are you, Quaithe?" Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. "Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice."

ADWD, Jon I - " "Snow," the moon insisted. The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden" <- the sun is Bloodraven, the cave of night is the cave of the Children, they caused the Long Night, Bloodraven is the Lion of Night, the Sun is a guardian planet of Zodiac sign Leo; Shiera is Bloodraven's moon (like Drogo called Dany his moon, and Dothraki have a saying that the sun is a husband, while the moon is his wife; The Lion of Night and his wife the Maiden-Made-of-Light from the legends of Yi Ti about the First Long Night), Moon is a guardian planet of Cancer, moonstones are heart stones of Cancer, in The Mystery Knight novel Maynard Plumm, who was actually Bloodraven in shadow-glamour, had a moonstone brooch, that was a shadow-artifact, using which he changed his appearance, same as in ADWD Melisandre used ruby bracelet artifact to change Mance's appearance. Shiera gave a moonstone (Cancer's heart stone) brooch to Bloodraven, and he gave her necklaces with sapphires and emeralds - Leo's heart stones. Thus the moon in Jon's dream was Shiera, she was trying to get in contact with him, but the Raven woke him up to prevent it. She was also mentioned by Egg in The Sworn Sword, and by Barristan Selmy in the main series. When Bloodraven was mentioned by Sam, he later appeared in the next book, the same will be with Shiera, she was mentioned by her name in the previous book and will appear in the next as herself without masquerades.

And a hint about her in ADWD, Jon IV - " "Shadows." The world seemed darker when he said it. "Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall." " ADWD, Jon XII - "The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred." In Old Welsh "Mor" means the sea, like in the name Morgana le Fay and Morrigan the Battle Crow and Queen of Phantoms, and Shiera the Star of the Sea. Shiera is also a witch, and she's also wearing a wooden mask like Morna, and that part about being a man or a woman is a reference to the Yndros of the Twilight who was male by day and female by night, mentioned in Fire&Blood as a deity of Larra Rogare. Larra and Serenei of Lys is the same person. Shiera's mother was a worshiped of Yndros. And it's the same God as R'hllor and Saagael. Same God with many names. Shiera/Quaithe is a shadowbinder, a user of blood magic, and a worshiper of R'hllor. And her wooden mask is "made of starlight" because it is made from weirwood and probably is painted red with Bloodraven's blood, that way thru blood magic Shiera created a link between herself and Bloodraven who is her "sun and stars", the sun is hiding in the cave of night (from Jon's dream) so in her mask Dany saw only stars (in ADWD, Dany X).

Though readers won't notice any of it until GRRM will directly write in the book who is Quaithe, that she is Shiera and the Three-Eyed Crow, and that she was appearing throughout all previous books in different forms to different characters. Even though by her actual name she was mentioned only once, she did appeared in the books multiple times, 10+ times.

If it was written too obviously, then it wouldn't have been a mystery book.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I'm surprised this thread doesn't have a flame next to it. Lol

[FictionIsntReal]

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I didn't say that's why he did it. But it was what honor required of him.

How so? Robert didn't say any such thing was necessary, nor does Ned think of it as being required by honor. He says "That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves."

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But incredibly easy for LF who tricks him into doing what he wants

If Joffrey was that easily controllable, I think LF would have kept him on the throne rather than assassinating him.

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While at the same time driving him more and more paranoid and crazy.

Aerys isn't crazy because someone made him crazy, he's just crazy by nature. And he was already paranoid when he brought on Varys.

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Also, there must be a reason why Robert spared him.

Robert spared everyone. He was famous for turning enemies into allies. When it was his time to put down a rebellion, he spared Balon as well.

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He probably knew what was about to happen and could have worked against it.

I expect doing so would have tipped off the other conspirators in KL that Varys was working against them.

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I do believe he was raised with contempt for the "real" Targs

I would expect such a person to agree with Pycelle on letting Tywin into KL.

15 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Usually when there is change of regime, you change important elements or ensure their loyalty and truthfulness, it is a matter of prudence.

That's why I agree the sensible thing would be to remove him from office, not kill him or send him to the Wall.

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Robert Baratheon was too forgiving, leaving Ser Jaime Lannister, Varys and Pycelle in court positions, each of them had their own loyalties

I definitely agree on Jaime, who was known to have violated his oath by murdering the king while his father sacked the city. We know that Pycelle betrayed the king by advising him to let Tywin in, but that doesn't seem to be common knowledge. As far as anyone knows, he's an impartial maester, and his appointment is determined by the Citadel rather than the king. The histories even record him as being one of the few who tried to make peace between the Rhaegar & Aerys factions.

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Ser Barristan once told me the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys

Barristan is simply wrong. Varys arrived after the death of Steffon, and Aerys was already crazy before then. He thought Tywin had somehow caused the storm which sank Steffon's ship, he'd refused Tywin's advice to stay from Duskendale, and then killed everyone (except Dontos, with Barristan's intervention). Before that he'd killed a nurse and then a mistress whom he alternately blamed for killing his infant son.

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I have no proof just a hunch, but is odd that same time as Tyrion was set free by Varys , Shae was in Tywin's chamber with him. It is too much of a coincidenc

Two things overlapping in time is only a notable coincidence if both time periods are short. But why should we expect that Shae would only be in that room for a brief period of time?

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My belief is that Tyrion was played like a fiddle to sow further discord between Lannisters and make sure Tyrion couldn't go back

I agree Varys would want that, though it's less clear he actually needed to do anything more to "make sure Tyrion couldn't go back" after he was convicted of poisoning Joffrey. He probably would have killed Tywin, as he later killed Kevan & Pycelle, but he doesn't need Shae at all for that.

[CamiloRP]

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How so? Robert didn't say any such thing was necessary, nor does Ned think of it as being required by honor. He says "That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves.

Well, it's not a black or white situation, while I hold with Ned, The Hound clearly thought that it was his duty as Joff sworn shiedl, he said that, and he doesn't lie.

 

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If Joffrey was that easily controllable, I think LF would have kept him on the throne rather than assassinating him.

GRRM confirmed that LF had some special hold on Joff, so that's that (well, if you believe Geroge and don't agree with death of the author). But also, I'm not so sure he intentionally assassinated Joff, his story is filled with holes. 

 

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Aerys isn't crazy because someone made him crazy, he's just crazy by nature. And he was already paranoid when he brought on Varys.

Sure, but both Barristan and Jaime think that Varys fueled Aery's madness.

 

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Robert spared everyone. He was famous for turning enemies into allies. When it was his time to put down a rebellion, he spared Balon as well.

Yep, mi mistake.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I would expect such a person to agree with Pycelle on letting Tywin into KL.

How is allowing the forces who will overthrow the (bad Targ) king and sack the kingdom not in alignment with serving the realm?   Varys isn't stupid and likely engineered a great many things to see his plan to fruition.   It's not the nicest thing to do, sure, but these things are committed for the sake of the long game he's playing with the ultimate goal of placing a fit ruler on the IT.   Any ruling family coming after Aerys would be lessened (thereby easier to depose) by virtue of not having been rulers for the past 300 years.   It's smart because there is no way anyone would want Tywin Lannister in charge of all of Westeros.   Varys saw the instability of Robert's reign coming.   Varys knew very well exactly who and what Tywin was.   Robert bought him time, though I expect he expected Tywin to be king.   

As far as allowing Tywin in to the Red Keep goes, I don't see how this makes Varys worse than Pycell.   

[Groo]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

She appeared in this chapters:

AGOT, Bran III - "The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman".

 

I'll try to be constructive here and start with your first quote. This is good evidence that if the Three-Eyed Crow is a person (rather than a spirit or god) then the Three-Eyed Crow is a woman. So far so good, but how do we connect this to Quaithe? Does the woman in Bran's dream have the same physical appearance as Quaithe? Do the Three-Eyed Crow and Quaithe share distinctive speech patterns or use the same unusual phrases or words? Do they both mention the same little known fact? My first thought would be that they both appear in dreams but that seems rather weak. Connecting in dreams isn't exclusive to just the two of them. Moreover, they don't even appear in the same way. Bran knows he's dreaming and the Three-Eyed Crow takes him to different places. Danny thinks Quaithe is actually there and Quaithe never shows her anything. She just speaks to Danny. In fact, it's arguable that Danny isn't dreaming and that Quaithe is somehow projecting her presence in a way only Danny can see. So how do you connect the Three-Eyed Crow to Quaithe?

[Eltharion21]

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's why I agree the sensible thing would be to remove him from office, not kill him or send him to the Wall.

Problem would be how much he knows about secret matters in Westeros, intrigue that can be exploited, tunnels in Red Keep or other weaknesses like Wildfire, those are all potential security threats. He could easily sell those secrets to interested parties in Essos, for that reason alone he might have be either executed or kept in captivity until end of his life.

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I definitely agree on Jaime, who was known to have violated his oath by murdering the king while his father sacked the city. We know that Pycelle betrayed the king by advising him to let Tywin in, but that doesn't seem to be common knowledge. As far as anyone knows, he's an impartial maester, and his appointment is determined by the Citadel rather than the king. The histories even record him as being one of the few who tried to make peace between the Rhaegar & Aerys factions.

Of course, most of those things we as readers are familiar with, it would be harder to see through their facade of benevolent advisors. Yet Robert is in fault that he allowed through his forgiveness for pardoned to scheme in his kingdom - being loyal to themselves alone ( Lannisters, Tyrells, Varys, Baelish, Greyjoy).

Robert was held to belief "better the devil that you know than the one you don't". He was kinda overconfident in a way.

Pycelle actually finished Jon Arryn on implicit order of Cersei after Lysa and Baelish poisoned him, after he started recovering by aid of  Maester Colemon. So he basically killed one of Roberts best friends and pillars that held Robert Baratheon's realm.

[broken one]

On 9/9/2020 at 2:14 AM, Groo said:

So the main series is 5,000 pages long. We've had 159 Stark POV chapters, 76 Lannister POV chapters, 31 Daenerys POV chapters, and 23 Greyjoy POV chapters. Yet your position is that this is really Shiera Seastar's story. She isn't mentioned by name in the main series and a single character mentions her once, in passing, in a single sentence. 

welcome to the board

On 9/8/2020 at 8:15 PM, Eltharion21 said:

having them loose their tongues

damn,  I cannot remember that part! but it only strenghtens my belief, that the little birds end up in lime pit

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, Groo said:

So how do you connect the Three-Eyed Crow to Quaithe?

Thru Euron Greyjoy and Bloodraven.

 

First of all, Quaithe is definitely Shiera Seastar. In ADWD Dany noticed that Quaithe's mask is made of starlight, and the stars in that "dream" were whispering in a woman's voice, and Dany recognized that voice as Quaithe, also because the voice was saying the same thing as Quaithe previously said to Dany when they met in flesh.

In that dream in ADWD Dany was flying, same as in her fevered dream in AGOT, and in both dreams there were whispering and smiling stars. Now try to visualise what is going on here (skip the sex parts, GRRM used them to distract readers): "Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame." <- It's obvious that Drogo didn't had sex with Dany, because at that time he was half dead. So what Dany saw and what was actually happening are two different things. There was no stars in a daylight sky, because Dany's labour started during nighttime, and during daytime stars are not visible, also stars don't smile, and they don't whisper. So the stars, that Dany saw in that dream, was Quaithe, who was wearing her starlight mask. Then suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame <- the stars were gone because Quaithe took off her starlight red mask and her black hooded cape, and Dany saw that this person is a dragonseed, with Valyrian brand looks, that's why the visual of stars was replaced with "across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame" <- it's a metaphor for a dragonseed, big wings and fire.

Next what Dany saw was a person with mismatched green-blue eyes, with a glass candle in her hands, and red-black clothes in traditional coloring of Targaryen court - "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one," <- the ghosts cried as one is a clue that it was ONE person, not many. Her clothes were "faded raiment of kings" not in a sense that she was wearing some rags, but in a sense that her clothes were red-black, traditional colors of Targaryen court, and Targaryens are a kings of the past, kings that are long gone, replaced by Baratheon-Lannisters with their black-gold and red-gold court attire. When Shiera Seastar was young, her hair was silver-gold, now when she is over 100 years old, her hair partially became platinum-white. She's alive and looks much younger than her actual age, because she's a user of blood magic, same as her mother, Serenei of Lys (who was actually Larra Rogare). Opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade are blue-green gemstones. Most common colors of jade is green and blue. There are tourmalines of all sorts of coloring, including green and blue. And tourmalines have a peculiar quality - there is a bi-colored blue-green variety of them. Amethysts are purple colored gemstones, though they have a secondary hue, and it's either red or blue. And opal is a bi-colored stone with blue and green mixed together, like on this picture - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal

GRRM had specifically chosen those four gemstones to describe eye-color of those mysterious ghosts in Dany's fevered dream, because all four of those stones are either blue or green or bi-colored blue-green/gree-blue, and he wrote that those ghosts cried as one, because it was one person, one person with blue-green eyes in red-black clothes of Targaryen court, a Valyrian with silver-gold and platinum-white hair. And there was only one Targaryen with mismatched blue-green eyes, and it is Shiera Seastar.

So Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, that's one of the reasons why "her mask is made of starlight". And she's a user of glass candles - "In their hands were swords of pale fire".

 

Now in a sample chapter from TWOW we have this:

"When he laughed, his face sloughed off, and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered around his feet and a forest burned behind him. “The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.” "

"He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire."

Shadow in woman's form - shadowbinder Quaithe, and she's holding glass candle in her hands, same as in AGOT in Dany's fevered dream.

Euron has mismatched eyes, blue and black. His blue eye is a smiling eye, but his black eye for some reason is a blood eye (blood is red, not black), and he ususally keeps that eye covered. And his nickname is the Crow's Eye. And he knows a lot about magic, and also about the Long Night prophecy he has an insider information. And Quaithe warned Dany that in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker in Qarth glass candles are burning. This Urrathon guy is Euron. In the past history of Westeros there was Urrathon Goodbrother, his story with his nephew, Torgon Greyiron, repeats Euron's story with Theon Greyjoy.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Urrathon_IV_Goodbrother

Thus, Euron is Quaithe's ex-apprentice (same as Mirri Maz Duur and maester Marwyn), she is the Three-Eyed Crow, and he learned magic from her, and thru his blood eye he is connected to her with blood magic (she can see what he sees with that eye), that's why his black eye is a "blood eye", and why his nickname is the Crow's Eye, and why he usually keeps that eye hiden (to prevent his ex-teacher from spying after him), and why Quaithe warned Dany against him/Urrathon - he used Quaithe, learned magic from her, and then betrayed her, and now is using his knowledge to become the victor in the Long Night, and to get the Iron Throne, and to become a god.

 

Also, what happened to Bloodraven seems to be a parallel to what happened to wizard Merlin. Merlin's lover, Nimue, binded him with magic to a tree, and left him to die in a cave. Nimue was a water fairy, and Shiera is a star of the sea, and a sorceress, so she's also sort of like a water fairy. Furthremore, Merlin had two women that he loved, one of them was Nimue, and she fought off his advances and refused to have sex with him. And his other paramour was Morgan le Fay, she did had sex with him (they even had a child, if I'm not mistaken). Shiera allowed Bloodraven to get into her bed, but she refused (over 50 times) to marry with him. So Shiera is a mix of Morgan and Nimue. "Mor" in Morgan's name from Old Welsh means "the sea", similar to Shiera's Sea Star name. Also Morgan is associated with a character from Welsh and Irish mythology - Morrigan. This Morrigan is a queen of phantoms (phantoms are shadows), and she was able to transform into a crow.

A shadow-queen, with a sea-themed name, whose avatar is a crow, and whose lover was a wizard binded to a magic tree - doesn't it sounds familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay#Etymology_and_origins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake#In_Le_Morte_d'Arthur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badb

 

And GRRM is aware of those myths and legends, because there's a House Morrigen in his books, and their castle is called the Crow's Nest.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Morrigen

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Crow's_Nest

 

Thus, the Three-Eyed Crow is Quaithe, also she is Shiera Seastar, and her "third eye" is Euron Greyjoy, nicknamed the Crow's Eye.

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Thru Euron Greyjoy and Bloodraven.

 

First of all, Quaithe is definitely Shiera Seastar. In ADWD Dany noticed that Quaithe's mask is made of starlight, and the stars in that "dream" were whispering in a woman's voice, and Dany recognized that voice as Quaithe, also because the voice was saying the same thing as Quaithe previously said to Dany when they met in flesh.

In that dream in ADWD Dany was flying, same as in her fevered dream in AGOT, and in both dreams there were whispering and smiling stars. Now try to visualise what is going on here (skip the sex parts, GRRM used them to distract readers): "Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame." <- It's obvious that Drogo didn't had sex with Dany, because at that time he was half dead. So what Dany saw and what was actually happening are two different things. There was no stars in a daylight sky, because Dany's labour started during nighttime, and during daytime stars are not visible, also stars don't smile, and they don't whisper. So the stars, that Dany saw in that dream, was Quaithe, who was wearing her starlight mask. Then suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame <- the stars were gone because Quaithe took off her starlight red mask and her black hooded cape, and Dany saw that this person is a dragonseed, with Valyrian brand looks, that's why the visual of stars was replaced with "across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame" <- it's a metaphor for a dragonseed, big wings and fire.

Next what Dany saw was a person with mismatched green-blue eyes, with a glass candle in her hands, and red-black clothes in traditional coloring of Targaryen court - "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one," <- the ghosts cried as one is a clue that it was ONE person, not many. Her clothes were "faded raiment of kings" not in a sense that she was wearing some rags, but in a sense that her clothes were red-black, traditional colors of Targaryen court, and Targaryens are a kings of the past, kings that are long gone, replaced by Baratheon-Lannisters with their black-gold and red-gold court attire. When Shiera Seastar was young, her hair was silver-gold, now when she is over 100 years old, her hair partially became platinum-white. She's alive and looks much younger than her actual age, because she's a user of blood magic, same as her mother, Serenei of Lys (who was actually Larra Rogare). Opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade are blue-green gemstones. Most common colors of jade is green and blue. There are tourmalines of all sorts of coloring, including green and blue. And tourmalines have a peculiar quality - there is a bi-colored blue-green variety of them. Amethysts are purple colored gemstones, though they have a secondary hue, and it's either red or blue. And opal is a bi-colored stone with blue and green mixed together, like on this picture - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal

GRRM had specifically chosen those four gemstones to describe eye-color of those mysterious ghosts in Dany's fevered dream, because all four of those stones are either blue or green or bi-colored blue-green/gree-blue, and he wrote that those ghosts cried as one, because it was one person, one person with blue-green eyes in red-black clothes of Targaryen court, a Valyrian with silver-gold and platinum-white hair. And there was only one Targaryen with mismatched blue-green eyes, and it is Shiera Seastar.

So Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, that's one of the reasons why "her mask is made of starlight". And she's a user of glass candles - "In their hands were swords of pale fire".

 

Now in a sample chapter from TWOW we have this:

"When he laughed, his face sloughed off, and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered around his feet and a forest burned behind him. “The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.” "

"He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire."

Shadow in woman's form - shadowbinder Quaithe, and she's holding glass candle in her hands, same as in AGOT in Dany's fevered dream.

Euron has mismatched eyes, blue and black. His blue eye is a smiling eye, but his black eye for some reason is a blood eye (blood is red, not black), and he ususally keeps that eye covered. And his nickname is the Crow's Eye. And he knows a lot about magic, and also about the Long Night prophecy he has an insider information. And Quaithe warned Dany that in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker in Qarth glass candles are burning. This Urrathon guy is Euron. In the past history of Westeros there was Urrathon Goodbrother, his story with his nephew, Torgon Greyiron, repeats Euron's story with Theon Greyjoy.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Urrathon_IV_Goodbrother

Thus, Euron is Quaithe's ex-apprentice (same as Mirri Maz Duur and maester Marwyn), she is the Three-Eyed Crow, and he learned magic from her, and thru his blood eye he is connected to her with blood magic (she can see what he sees with that eye), that's why his black eye is a "blood eye", and why his nickname is the Crow's Eye, and why he usually keeps that eye hiden (to prevent his ex-teacher from spying after him), and why Quaithe warned Dany against him/Urrathon - he used Quaithe, learned magic from her, and then betrayed her, and now is using his knowledge to become the victor in the Long Night, and to get the Iron Throne, and to become a god.

 

Also, what happened to Bloodraven seems to be a parallel to what happened to wizard Merlin. Merlin's lover, Nimue, binded him with magic to a tree, and left him to die in a cave. Nimue was a water fairy, and Shiera is a star of the sea, and a sorceress, so she's also sort of like a water fairy. Furthremore, Merlin had two women that he loved, one of them was Nimue, and she fought off his advances and refused to have sex with him. And his other paramour was Morgan le Fay, she did had sex with him (they even had a child, if I'm not mistaken). Shiera allowed Bloodraven to get into her bed, but she refused (over 50 times) to marry with him. So Shiera is a mix of Morgan and Nimue. "Mor" in Morgan's name from Old Welsh means "the sea", similar to Shiera's Sea Star name. Also Morgan is associated with a character from Welsh and Irish mythology - Morrigan. This Morrigan is a queen of phantoms (phantoms are shadows), and she was able to transform into a crow.

A shadow-queen, with a sea-themed name, whose avatar is a crow, and whose lover was a wizard binded to a magic tree - doesn't it sounds familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay#Etymology_and_origins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake#In_Le_Morte_d'Arthur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badb

 

And GRRM is aware of those myths and legends, because there's a House Morrigen in his books, and their castle is called the Crow's Nest.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Morrigen

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Crow's_Nest

 

Thus, the Three-Eyed Crow is Quaithe, also she is Shiera Seastar, and her "third eye" is Euron Greyjoy, nicknamed the Crow's Eye.

Brilliant. 

You have 100% convinced me, I love this write up. 

It even shows why Euron covers his blood eye, to keep Quiathe from seeing what he sees. 

I could not hope to praise this post more than I already have. Its the second best post regarding ASOIAF that I have read in my whole life (I was born after AGOT was released). 

Thank You.

[FictionIsntReal]

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The Hound clearly thought that it was his duty as Joff sworn shiedl, he said that, and he doesn't lie.

The Hound kills who his masters tell him to kill, honor has nothing to do with it.

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GRRM confirmed that LF had some special hold on Joff, so that's that

He confirmed he had some influence on Joff. LF himself notes that he was able to persuade Joff to have dwarf performers at the feast in order to annoy Tyrion, though LF thinks Joffrey was rather dim not to pick up on that reasoning until it was pointed out. That doesn't mean LF can control him.

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But also, I'm not so sure he intentionally assassinated Joff, his story is filled with holes

How so?

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How is allowing the forces who will overthrow the (bad Targ) king and sack the kingdom not in alignment with serving the realm?

I don't think Varys conceived of himself as serving "the realm" rather than his patron at that point. He was a relatively recent arrival without any other connections to Westeros. But if he hated Aerys and his whole branch of the Targaryen family, it would be "not in alignment" to to try prevent such a sack.

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It's smart because there is no way anyone would want Tywin Lannister in charge of all of Westeros

Pycelle wanted exactly that, and during the War of Five Kings there are enough people pinning their hopes on Tywin that he manages to defeat Stannis & Robb.

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Varys saw the instability of Robert's reign coming

Does he have magic powers? The only person we know of expecting instability at the time was Balon, who turned out to be sorely mistaken. The instability in Robert's dynasty is the result of his "children" being bastards born of incest, which would be awfully hard to foresee before he was even betrothed to Cersei.

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As far as allowing Tywin in to the Red Keep goes, I don't see how this makes Varys worse than Pycell.

The point was whether Varys' actions were consistent with the motivation you ascribed to him. I was not making any argument that Varys is "worse" than Pycelle because of that.

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Yet Robert is in fault that he allowed through his forgiveness for pardoned to scheme in his kingdom - being loyal to themselves alone ( Lannisters, Tyrells, Varys, Baelish, Greyjoy).

I can grant you Balon Greyjoy, but Tywin was right when he rebuked Joffrey for not accepting your enemies when they bend the knee. To do otherwise is a recipe for endless war and opposition. Going after the Tyrells would have been idiotic. Petyr Baelish never openly opposed Robert, though. Jon Arryn appointed him some time into his Handship, and he appeared to be sleazy but competent. He probably should have been replaced considering the extent to which he was enriching himself, but I don't think he was known to have done anything meriting "forgiveness".

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think Varys conceived of himself as serving "the realm" rather than his patron at that point. He was a relatively recent arrival without any other connections to Westeros. But if he hated Aerys and his whole branch of the Targaryen family, it would be "not in alignment" to to try prevent such a sack.

And I beg to differ with you.  I am certain Varys was playing the long game and intentionally made himself known to Aerys for just such infiltration.  It wasn't about hating Aerys.  It was always about placing a Blackfyre on the throne.   Could well be there was another Blackfyre in mind for such placement when Varys obtained his assignment in Westeros.   In such case the destabilization of the Targ rule would absolutely pave the way for an eventual Blackfyre ruler. 

[Castellan]

Varys remains a mystery to me despite many interesting threads, I think that's a tribute to the way GRRM has, as some critic noted early on, structured ASOIF like a mystery novel. 

I saw some reporter's 3 seconds with GRRM when he asked who was misunderstood by readers/viewers and GRRM came up with Melisandre and Varys. I take it he means Melisandre has a respectable motive - to save humankind - even if we find her means shocking. Perhaps likewise he meant Varys has at least a deeply felt and consistent motive that dictates his actions. I can't quite see it would be on the level of believing he is going to save humanity, though. Awareness that he is a Blackfyre and a belief that the man who castrated him wanted him because he knew he had Targ blood (just as Melisandre seeks royal bloodlines to burn) seem like a sizeable chunk to what might be basically an emotional motive.

 

 

 

[CamiloRP]

35 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Hound kills who his masters tell him to kill, honor has nothing to do with it.

Most knight would do so to, because of honor and duty, Sandor does it just cause, honor has nothing to do with it, I agree. But that wasn't the point. The point is that the quest for honor leads to horrible things and what I said was that it was "what honor required of him" and to some, it was.

 

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He confirmed he had some influence on Joff. LF himself notes that he was able to persuade Joff to have dwarf performers at the feast in order to annoy Tyrion, though LF thinks Joffrey was rather dim not to pick up on that reasoning until it was pointed out. That doesn't mean LF can control him.

I think there are hints in the books that might mean he can control him. Varys and Tyrion seem to think that LF expected for Joffrey to order Ned's death, and informed Slynt of that.

 

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How so?

LF goes to the Tyrells to convince them to join the Lannister cause, while doing this, he has his companions spread rumors about Joff being a dick. Why would he do that? that could mess up the alliance and his chances of getting his beloved Harrenhal.

Then Olenna and him planned together to murder Joffrey. Why? Why would Olenna think to approach LF, he's a member of Joff's council and his been praising Joff. Also, what does LF bring to the table? and what does Olenna bring to LF's table?

Then LF gives poison to Dontos, who gives it to Sansa and Olenna takes it from her and poisons Joff. Why wouldn't she jsut carry her own poison and not involve anyone? She could just take some poison from her maester and do it herself without involving anyone else, she's gonna do the killing anyway.

The strangler is used to simulate choking, so why put it in wine? you can't choke on wine. Also, why pu it in the cup Joff and Margery were drinking from? She could have died. The cup was being spilled without being drunken, what if that happened while it had the poison in it?

So. What happened then?

The theory I believe (it's not mine but I read it many years ago and I can't remember where. Maybe it was here, before I made my account, maybe on radio westeros, maybe on reddit) is that Joff's death was a mistake. Littlefinger intended to poison Tyrion, after all, he doesn't have a motive for killing Joffrey, by his own admission, but he has several motives to want Tyrion dead:

Tyrion offered him Harrenhal, and then he retracted.

Tyrion knows LF lied about the valiryan steel dagger.

Tyrion told LF that he knew who killed Jon Arryn.

LF wants to marry Sansa to someone (Sweet Robin, Harry The Heir or himself) and to do so, Sansa must no longer be married.

Mandon Moore is a LF agent and he tried to kill Tyrion.

 

Plus, putting the strangler in Tyrion's pie makes more sense, as it's easier to choke on pie than to chokoe on wine. 

 

This is from the ACOK prologue

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His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly. Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying her, denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god. And the cowbells peeled in his antlers, singing fool, fool, fool while the red woman looked down on him in pity, the candle flames dancing in her red red eyes.

 

And this is from Tyrion VIII ASOS

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The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." "My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . . " His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

 

Both characters die by the same poison, Cressen suffered the effects instantly, If we assumed Joff suffered them instantly too, then he died from poison in the pie rather than poison in the wine s he started coughing after eating the pie.

[Eltharion21]

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I can grant you Balon Greyjoy, but Tywin was right when he rebuked Joffrey for not accepting your enemies when they bend the knee. To do otherwise is a recipe for endless war and opposition. Going after the Tyrells would have been idiotic. Petyr Baelish never openly opposed Robert, though. Jon Arryn appointed him some time into his Handship, and he appeared to be sleazy but competent. He probably should have been replaced considering the extent to which he was enriching himself, but I don't think he was known to have done anything meriting "forgiveness".

I meant that in previous conflicts Greyjoy, Tyrells and Varys were opponents of regime and they were forgiven yet they didn't appreciate that and became loyal,  they each continued their own agenda. Lannisters were neutral, yet Jaime was pardoned for Kingslaying, but he was loyal mostly to Cersei and his family first, which is  dangerous as evident from the events, especially with proximity to the King.

Baelish is later addition  and in a sense "the straw that broke the camel's back" . Robert had advice against him, mostly coming from Stannis, which was ultimately shrugged.

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"Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds." Stannis narrowed his eyes. "Do not trifle with me, my lord. I saw the proof Jon Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king you would have lost more than your office, I promise you, but Robert shrugged away your little lapses. 'They all steal,' I recall him saying. 'Better a thief we know than one we don't, the next man might be worse.' Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant. Littlefinger had a nose for gold, and I'm certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did yourself."

Tyrells  as Targaryen supporters, were kinda kept in check with marriage of Stannis to House Florent as implicit threat of their replacement as House Paramount if they rebel,  yet they try to circumvent that by marriage to Robert through aid of Renly and later Renly himself.

 Lannisters have to much power and men loyal to them in Capital, also Throne owes  them much money, Robert also muses making Jaime Lannister King's Hand. He also names him Warden of the East  giving Lannisters control over East and West, Tywin planned in taking Robin Arryn as a ward and grooming him in potential ally or using  him as a hostage.

All the while power of those loyal to Baratheon is dispersed ( on Dragonstone, Renly fleeing the city, Eddard Stark sending spreading out his men to aid disloyal gold cloaks or sending them to hunt Mountain).

Varys was left unchecked as Maester of Whispers, leaving King oblivious to many of those existing threats, adding to that coming of Baelish ( who was mostly Jon Arryn's fault) . They both plot for their own goals, without much control over their organisations.

I am trying to say that whole political scene in King's Landing prior to War of the Five Kings was a mess, created from gross negligence, which lies mostly as fault of the ruling King and his hand.

 

[Loose Bolt]

When I was reading ADwD I assumed that when I finally saw eyes of little birds of Varys those eyes would have been blue. But it is mentioned in the book that all of them had dark eyes. 

[BalerionTheCat]

The story has plenty of villains. Some are just wretches without quality or excuse. Ramsays, Aerys (his last years), Janos Slynt, Walder Frey... Some have ambitious goals, calling for some grandness, but without mercy or empathy: Tywin, Little Finger, Euron... Some even believe, delude themselves, that the harm they cause now is for a better future.. While it's always their own power lust, their family, that drive them.

Vary is one of them. He and Illirio have a great part in the chaos since Aerys' madness. I'm not sure how much they took advantage of events or created them. I believe not much happens in ASoIaF without a Why, without someone plotting it. This is part of why I love so much ASoIaF, why it is I believe so difficult to write.

Each villain has his kind. But for the kind of "king making", yes, I believe Varys and Illirio are the worst. Much before Tywin or LF. Euron is a more "absolute evil", but it's another kind.

[Rose of Red Lake]

I love Varys as a complex character. He harms people and children but he has a political goal larger than himself. He is isnt corrupted by power. He has to use subterfuge, fealty, and service as a weapon. He is a political engineer.

[TheLastWolf]

On 9/8/2020 at 1:13 PM, TheLastWolf said:

No. 

It's Patchface 

The 

JOKER clown 

(Evil laugh) 

 

(sigh) 

Guys please listen before it's too late.

Meli was right. Red Rahloo was right. 

IT'S PATCHFACE!!! 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/10/2020 at 7:46 PM, Curled Finger said:

And I beg to differ with you.  I am certain Varys was playing the long game and intentionally made himself known to Aerys for just such infiltration.

What do you mean by "made himself known to Aerys"?

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It wasn't about hating Aerys.  It was always about placing a Blackfyre on the throne.

Aerys' family also got hit during the sack, and with Rhaegar already dead that left very few Targaryens.

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Could well be there was another Blackfyre in mind for such placement when Varys obtained his assignment in Westeros.   In such case the destabilization of the Targ rule would absolutely pave the way for an eventual Blackfyre ruler.

Why didn't that Blackfyre invade during Robert's rebellion? Robert didn't declare himself king until around the battle of the Trident. What reason would Varys have to suspect a better opportunity for instability would come along? He didn't know Robert's "children" would be incestuous bastards, and he wouldn't have known Young Griff would be available at the time he came to KL.

On 9/10/2020 at 7:55 PM, Castellan said:

Perhaps likewise he meant Varys has at least a deeply felt and consistent motive that dictates his actions

Varys explains his actions to Kevan in the epilogue of the same book where we get Melisandre as a POV for the first time. Both see themselves as serving the greater good.

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Awareness that he is a Blackfyre and a belief that the man who castrated him wanted him because he knew he had Targ blood (just as Melisandre seeks royal bloodlines to burn) seem like a sizeable chunk to what might be basically an emotional motive.

How much has his castration actually motivated him? He claims to oppose Stannis because he hates magic, but supporting a Blackfyre restoration would have caused him to oppose Stannis anyway.

On 9/10/2020 at 8:00 PM, CamiloRP said:

Most knight would do so to, because of honor and duty

Ned isn't a knight, because he's a Northman, but is famously honorable. I don't know that Ser Barristan would have done it.

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I think there are hints in the books that might mean he can control him. Varys and Tyrion seem to think that LF expected for Joffrey to order Ned's death, and informed Slynt of that.

Joffrey is a sadist who likes that sort of thing in general, it doesn't take much to get him to do it to someone he would already regard as his enemy.

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LF goes to the Tyrells to convince them to join the Lannister cause, while doing this, he has his companions spread rumors about Joff being a dick. Why would he do that?

He explained that this would result in Loras joining the KG.

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that could mess up the alliance and his chances of getting his beloved Harrenhal.

The marriage alliance is the result of it being in the mutual interest of houses Lannister & Tyrell. The happiness of a marriage typically comes as a secondary consideration when such politics are at play. And Harrenhal is just a stepping stone that he never even visits before moving to the Vale instead.

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Why wouldn't she jsut carry her own poison and not involve anyone?

If the source of the poison was discovered, she DEFINITELY wouldn't want the Lannisters to know she brought it. As it is, the Tyrells have deniability.

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The strangler is used to simulate choking, so why put it in wine? you can't choke on wine

The wine dissolves it, and he chokes after he eats pie. You yourself note another example of it being dissolved in wine rather than solid food, because that's what you normally do with poison (unless the poison is added prior to cooking).

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Also, why pu it in the cup Joff and Margery were drinking from?

They timed it to avoid that. After Margaery has an initial drink to show she wasn't avoiding the cup, they can add it and have her refrain from more.

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The theory I believe [...] is that Joff's death was a mistake. Littlefinger intended to poison Tyrion

Sansa herself realizes that it doesn't make sense for the Tyrells to be so blase after she tells them how awful Joffrey really is, as Loras would probably kill Joffrey and set the two families at war (which Jaime has indicated he would have been willing to do for Cersei). LF used the same logic when telling Sansa what happened. And since LF was already setting the Starks against the Lannisters in the first book, setting Lannisters against each other fits his M.O. If he was somehow going to frame Sansa for Tyrion's murder, that wouldn't sow more of the chaos he thrives in. LF arranged for the dwarves precisely to spark conflict between Joffrey & Tyrion right before the former was assassinated (and the wife of the latter disappeared, leaving Tyrion looking guilty and holding the bag).

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Mandon Moore is a LF agent and he tried to kill Tyrion.

I don't think that's correct. LF's agents tend to be low status and with weaknesses to exploit. Tyrion's investigation turned up nothing because Mandon Moore had no secret side. He was just a sociopath that Tyrion ticked off. Robert had to replace 5 KG and LF still a kid recently recovering from his duel with Brandon. The timing doesn't seem to work for Moore's appointment to be the result of LF's as yet non-existent pull, and afterwards Moore was high enough status not to be easily bribable (not that he seemed to want anything anyone could bribe him with).

20 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I meant that in previous conflicts Greyjoy, Tyrells and Varys were opponents of regime and they were forgiven yet they didn't appreciate that and became loyal

Neither the Greyjoys nor the Tyrells were undermining Robert between the Greyjoy rebellion and his fatal hunting accident. There was a plot to have Margaery replace Cersei, but that's not disloyalty to Robert.

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yet Jaime was pardoned for Kingslaying, but he was loyal mostly to Cersei and his family first, which is  dangerous as evident from the events, especially with proximity to the King

I agree that letting Jaime stay in the KG was something he should have known was a terrible idea even at the time.

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Baelish is later addition  and in a sense "the straw that broke the camel's back" . Robert had advice against him, mostly coming from Stannis, which was ultimately shrugged.

The bit you quote is about Janos Slynt, who is LF's man but the advice here is not "against" LF specifically.

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Tyrells  as Targaryen supporters, were kinda kept in check with marriage of Stannis to House Florent as implicit threat of their replacement as House Paramount if they rebel,  yet they try to circumvent that by marriage to Robert through aid of Renly and later Renly himself.

That doesn't really increase their risk of rebellion. It could do that for the Lannisters, but if the incest is revealed there would be a conflict anyway.

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Lannisters have to much power and men loyal to them in Capital, also Throne owes  them much money

There's a saying that if you owe your bank a hundred thousand dollars, you have a problem. If you owe your bank a hundred billion dollars, your bank has a problem. If there was a reveal of incest, Robert might just disavow any such debts.

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All the while power of those loyal to Baratheon is dispersed ( on Dragonstone, Renly fleeing the city

Both of Robert's brothers were on the Small Council in KL! Stannis only fled after Jon Arryn, while Renly was still scheming with Ned even as Robert was dying. There were three people named Baratheon on the SC, none named Lannister. I suppose there was never a Tully on there, and they were part of the alliance and not so far away as the Starks.

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Varys was left unchecked as Maester of Whispers

What Masters of Whispers have been "checked"?