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The Agenda and Identities of the Faceless Men.

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TL;DR. no. jus kiddin

I have seen a lot of tinfoil-ey, crackpottish and speculative (wildly) threads about this while searching for answers, and none were quite convincing.

Their agenda has been touted to be everything from world domination using the dragons they hate so much, apocalypse by teaming up with the Others (world annihilation, duh) to plain old killing for the manyfacedone (but really only for the money, others say) and winning the US presidential elections to kick Trump's ass. 

So...What is it????? Which one? Or is it something which I haven't even mentioned?

And now to the question of their identities.

Here are the known FM....excl. Arya

  • Jaqen H'ghar
  • The alchemist
  • The kindly man
  • The waif
  • The fat fellow
  • The handsome man
  • The lordling
  • The squinter
  • The starved man
  • The stern face
  • Plague face

We can agree on Jaqen being the Alchemist/Pate at least I hope?

But here's my crackpot on his origins and motives and why he has gone rogue and not with the agenda of the FM/HoBaW anymore

Spoiler

I have this crackpot theory (that's for you to decide) that Jaqen H'ghar is really Gerion Lannister. Let me explain why before you start cursing me.

The Valyrian steel greatsword of House Lannister, Brightroar was lost with Tommen II Lannister when he sailed to the Smoking Sea, to find riches, plunder and the remaining sorcery in the ruins of Valyria, a century after the Doom. The fleet, Tommen and Brightroar never neturned.

Now fast forward to 291 A.C. when Gerion Lannister, Tywin's youngest brother and Tyrion's favourite uncle goes on a 'fools' quest to retrieve the sword and find all the riches and remaining sorcery on his ship 'Laughing Lion'. He too was last seen at Old Volantis  when half his crew deserted him and he had to buy slaves for oarsmen to row the ship to the Smoking Sea.

I think he did find Brightroar ,but also something more that made him ambitious....something about dragons and sorcery. Point to be noted was that his brother Tygett had also spoken about dragons previously...this we know from Tyrion , so it would not be a surprise if another uncle was also interested about it. So then Gerion joins the Faceless Men and hides Brightroar like Arya did Needle to claim it later when the time was right. After training, he took the identity of a Lorathi, Jaqen H'ghar. He must have traveled to King's landing to find out more about his new obsession from all the Targaryenish things Robert hid away after coming to power. But he must have been caught and put in the black cells (we all know Robert's hatred for all things Targaryen) and the rest we know....Yoren....Harrenhal...Arya...new appearance.

Then he must have got the dragon egg from Euron for killing Balon Greyjoy... or could've found the hidden dragon egg which Bloodraven took from Butterwell. I incline towards the former theory. Then he must have been the Alchemist who kills Pate and takes over his identity in Oldtown. Now he also has Archmaester Walgrave's key that can open any door in the Citadel... especially a certain hidden door with a certain rare-only-one-in-the-world copy of a certain book about dragons which Tyrion mentions in ADWD.

  Quote

"And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel."

 With the book, Jaqen could hatch the dragon egg....and if my theory is false, then Jaqen must be hired by someone who is Anti-Targaryen and anti-dragon (the grey sheep?)

P.S. I think Gerion's bastard daughter Joy Hill (by some common woman called Briony) could also be instrumental in the plot if my theory is somewhat true at least.

Oh, I almost forgot that some believe Euron is in cahoots with Jaqen (even if he is Gerion or not) and both betrayed QUAITHE/SHIERA SEASTAR.

 

Spoiler

I have good reason to believe that The Sailor's wife in Braavos is not Tysha like some believe and actually mother to Gerion Lannister's hitherto second unknown baseborn daughter, Lanna.

  • Tysha was not a whore
  • Tyrion was never a sailor,while Gerion was.
  • Tysha was just a crofter's daughter. Once she was....sent from Tyrion, she would have either commited suicide,married some fat innkeep and had lotsof kids,or plotted revenge. Why would she go to a strange and unknown place like Braavos when the world she knew was only the westerlands?
  • The Sailor's wife's daughter has golden hair and is named Lanna (feminine form of Lann ,origin of Lannister) You may argue that it could be Tyrion who's the father, but would Tysha want to keep a name that would remind her of that gruesome past? Moreover I believe that Tyrion's father is Aerys, as Tyrion's different hair color like Valyrians rather than Lannister gold,mismatched eyes,dwarfism and Tywin's telling him that he was no son of his are certain small proofs....but that is a different thread. So it has to be Gerion.
  • Lanna is 14 while Joy Hill is 12 running(born in 288 A.C.) so some may argue that Gerion sailed for Valyria only in 291 AC. how could he have fathered Lanna before/I say why not? he was a sailor before and my above theory also supports that Braavos is where Gerion went to become a FM in the HOBAW. And maybe entrusted BRIGHTROAR  to his whore wife and daughter.
  • Penny and Groat stayed at Braavos in a whorehouse before the Purple wedding(courtesy LITTLEFINGER) it could even be with Sailor's wife and Lanna. Are these characters players in Littlefinger's game? or is Jaqen/gerion involved? Or Varys and Illyrio too involved(remember how penny and co got the dragon eggs in braavos from the sealord for the eunuch spider and lord cheese?)

Then to the next

THE KINDLY MAN?? No ideas here. Could be anyone IMO. Westerosi or Summer Islander, i dunno. Hope some-buddy clears that up for me.

NOTE: Since many believe (Im uncertain) that the FM/HoBaW, Sealord of Braavos, Iron Bank are all in their scheme together....please clear that up or use that to clear up my doubhts

THE WAIF??? I've seen characters from Ashara Dayne to Lyanna Stark for this one, here and there. She is 36 or not. Her story may be true or not. Who knows? Please tell if you do.

The rest I've got no ideas.

FAT MAN= ILLYRIO?

OR COULD THE SEALORD AND IB HEAD BANKER (if there is any such post as that) be among the other FM whom we see very less of, and thattoo through Arya alone

 

 

THINGS THAT MAY BE OF INFLUENCE IN REVEALING THEIR AGENDA AND IDs

  • For a price, the guild will agree to kill anyone
  • The price is always high (For the individual. if a beggar, a gold dragon is high, if a lord, (shrug))
  • The cost of their services also depends on the prominence and security of the target. That,s BS if u ask me. They put price based on the status of the client, then change it for the status of the target. Bah!
  • And their method of killing by making it seem like an accident. Not always. We have Arya and her anomalies
  • Their use of dead mens' skins/glamours and clothes and poisonous potions all stinking vaguely/subtly of the sorcery they should allegedly hate.
  • An assassin only accepts an assignment if they are unfamiliar with the target.
  • Some scholars believe that the cause of the Doom of Valyria was too many assassinations of the mages who maintained the spells controlling the Fourteen Flames. Are the FM as prejudiced/hateful against all things Valyrian like the rest of the Braavosi due to the slavery issue? The first gift was not to a master but a slave. Or is money the highest influence?
  • Prince Harlan Hoare was rumored to have been killed by a Faceless Man.
  • It is speculated that the letter King Aegon I Targaryen received from Prince Nymor Martell of Dorne may have contained a threat to hire the Faceless Men to...kill whom???Aenys??Or something else entirely?
  • VALAR MORGHULIS. VALAR DOHAERIS. They are Valyrian phrases. Why would the FM use it? Does it mean they are not as hateful against all things Valyrian? Then how could the IB and Sealord be in cahoots?
  • And what about Balon's killer, Eurons dragon egg, Jaqen/Alchemist/Pate, the Citadel and secret dragon book, Gerion and Brightroar, Red keep (dragon skulls?) and the Wall (forgotten eggs there or at Winterfell in crypts?)
  • And dont forgot all the other million subtle references by GRRM about their influencing of events all over Planetos. The Grand blah blah blah conspiracy
Edited by TheLastWolf

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1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

TL;DR. no. jus kiddin

I have seen a lot of tinfoil-ey, crackpottish and speculative (wildly) threads about this while searching for answers, and none were quite convincing.

Their agenda has been touted to be everything from world domination using the dragons they hate so much, apocalypse by teaming up with the Others (world annihilation, duh) to plain old killing for the manyfacedone (but really only for the money, others say) and winning the US presidential elections to kick Trump's ass. 
 

I’ve seen that idea being proposed many times over the years. Never made any sense to me, though. A lot of people assume/interpret that the FM are a death cult; mostly based on having and training assassins, and the whole “all men must die”. But to me that points in the opposite direction. All men must die means that life must follow the natural cycles of life, all living things must eventually die. The wights are undead, they’re the opposite of the natural cycle of life. So, may take is, if the FM aligns w/ anyone in the upcoming battle for the Dawn, it will be whoever is fighting against the Others. 

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

So...What is it????? Which one? Or is it something which I haven't even mentioned?

And now to the question of their identities.

Here are the known FM....excl. Arya

  • Jaqen H'ghar
  • The alchemist
  • The kindly man
  • The waif
  • The fat fellow
  • The handsome man
  • The lordling
  • The squinter
  • The starved man
  • The stern face
  • Plague face

We can agree on Jaqen being the Alchemist/Pate at least I hope?

Depends on who do you mean by “we”. I agree, but I also know there are lots of readers who don’t. 
As to the others, I think there’s a good chance we will never learn who they truly are. I also find it hugely unlikely that they’re all westerosi and/or characters we know. 

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

But here's my crackpot on his origins and motives and why he has gone rogue and not with the agenda of the FM/HoBaW anymore

  Reveal hidden contents

I have this crackpot theory (that's for you to decide) that Jaqen H'ghar is really Gerion Lannister. Let me explain why before you start cursing me.

The Valyrian steel greatsword of House Lannister, Brightroar was lost with Tommen II Lannister when he sailed to the Smoking Sea, to find riches, plunder and the remaining sorcery in the ruins of Valyria, a century after the Doom. The fleet, Tommen and Brightroar never neturned.

Now fast forward to 291 A.C. when Gerion Lannister, Tywin's youngest brother and Tyrion's favourite uncle goes on a 'fools' quest to retrieve the sword and find all the riches and remaining sorcery on his ship 'Laughing Lion'. He too was last seen at Old Volantis  when half his crew deserted him and he had to buy slaves for oarsmen to row the ship to the Smoking Sea.

I think he did find Brightroar ,but also something more that made him ambitious....something about dragons and sorcery. Point to be noted was that his brother Tygett had also spoken about dragons previously...this we know from Tyrion , so it would not be a surprise if another uncle was also interested about it. So then Gerion joins the Faceless Men and hides Brightroar like Arya did Needle to claim it later when the time was right. After training, he took the identity of a Lorathi, Jaqen H'ghar. He must have traveled to King's landing to find out more about his new obsession from all the Targaryenish things Robert hid away after coming to power. But he must have been caught and put in the black cells (we all know Robert's hatred for all things Targaryen) and the rest we know....Yoren....Harrenhal...Arya...new appearance.

Then he must have got the dragon egg from Euron for killing Balon Greyjoy... or could've found the hidden dragon egg which Bloodraven took from Butterwell. I incline towards the former theory. Then he must have been the Alchemist who kills Pate and takes over his identity in Oldtown. Now he also has Archmaester Walgrave's key that can open any door in the Citadel... especially a certain hidden door with a certain rare-only-one-in-the-world copy of a certain book about dragons which Tyrion mentions in ADWD.

  Quote

"And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel."

 With the book, Jaqen could hatch the dragon egg....and if my theory is false, then Jaqen must be hired by someone who is Anti-Targaryen and anti-dragon (the grey sheep?)

P.S. I think Gerion's bastard daughter Joy Hill (by some common woman called Briony) could also be instrumental in the plot if my theory is somewhat true at least.

Oh, I almost forgot that some believe Euron is in cahoots with Jaqen (even if he is Gerion or not) and both betrayed QUAITHE/SHIERA SEASTAR.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I have good reason to believe that The Sailor's wife in Braavos is not Tysha like some believe and actually mother to Gerion Lannister's hitherto second unknown baseborn daughter, Lanna.

  • Tysha was not a whore
  • Tyrion was never a sailor,while Gerion was.
  • Tysha was just a crofter's daughter. Once she was....sent from Tyrion, she would have either commited suicide,married some fat innkeep and had lotsof kids,or plotted revenge. Why would she go to a strange and unknown place like Braavos when the world she knew was only the westerlands?
  • The Sailor's wife's daughter has golden hair and is named Lanna (feminine form of Lann ,origin of Lannister) You may argue that it could be Tyrion who's the father, but would Tysha want to keep a name that would remind her of that gruesome past? Moreover I believe that Tyrion's father is Aerys, as Tyrion's different hair color like Valyrians rather than Lannister gold,mismatched eyes,dwarfism and Tywin's telling him that he was no son of his are certain small proofs....but that is a different thread. So it has to be Gerion.
  • Lanna is 14 while Joy Hill is 12 running(born in 288 A.C.) so some may argue that Gerion sailed for Valyria only in 291 AC. how could he have fathered Lanna before/I say why not? he was a sailor before and my above theory also supports that Braavos is where Gerion went to become a FM in the HOBAW. And maybe entrusted BRIGHTROAR  to his whore wife and daughter.
  • Penny and Groat stayed at Braavos in a whorehouse before the Purple wedding(courtesy LITTLEFINGER) it could even be with Sailor's wife and Lanna. Are these characters players in Littlefinger's game? or is Jaqen/gerion involved? Or Varys and Illyrio too involved(remember how penny and co got the dragon eggs in braavos from the sealord for the eunuch spider and lord cheese?)

Then to the next

THE KINDLY MAN?? No ideas here. Could be anyone IMO. Westerosi or Summer Islander, i dunno. Hope some-buddy clears that up for me.

NOTE: Since many believe (Im uncertain) that the FM/HoBaW, Sealord of Braavos, Iron Bank are all in their scheme together....please clear that up or use that to clear up my doubhts

I think the KM is, well, the KM. Meaning, he’s not a character we’ve met or heard of before. He’s not Gerion, or Howland Reed, or the NK. IMO.

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

THE WAIF??? I've seen characters from Ashara Dayne to Lyanna Stark for this one, here and there. She is 36 or not. Her story may be true or not. Who knows? Please tell if you do.

The rest I've got no ideas.

Again, I think she is who she says she is. And again, not a previously met or mentioned character. And yes, I think her story is true. 

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

FAT MAN= ILLYRIO?

I proposed this a very long time ago... Not for any specific reason, but just b/c their physical descriptions sound very similar. 

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

OR COULD THE SEALORD AND IB HEAD BANKER (if there is any such post as that) be among the other FM whom we see very less of, and thattoo through Arya alone

 

 

THINGS THAT MAY BE OF INFLUENCE IN REVEALING THEIR AGENDA AND IDs

  • For a price, the guild will agree to kill anyone
  • The price is always high (For the individual. if a beggar, a gold dragon is high, if a lord, (shrug))
  • The cost of their services also depends on the prominence and security of the target. That,s BS if u ask me. They put price based on the status of the client, then change it for the status of the target. Bah!
  • And their method of killing by making it seem like an accident. Not always. We have Arya and her anomalies
  • Their use of dead mens' skins/glamours and clothes and poisonous potions all stinking vaguely/subtly of the sorcery they should allegedly hate.
  • An assassin only accepts an assignment if they are unfamiliar with the target.
  • Some scholars believe that the cause of the Doom of Valyria was too many assassinations of the mages who maintained the spells controlling the Fourteen Flames. Are the FM as prejudiced/hateful against all things Valyrian like the rest of the Braavosi due to the slavery issue? The first gift was not to a master but a slave. Or is money the highest influence?
  • Prince Harlan Hoare was rumored to have been killed by a Faceless Man.
  • It is speculated that the letter King Aegon I Targaryen received from Prince Nymor Martell of Dorne may have contained a threat to hire the Faceless Men to...kill whom???Aenys??Or something else entirely?
  • VALAR MORGHULIS. VALAR DOHAERIS. They are Valyrian phrases. Why would the FM use it? Does it mean they are not as hateful against all things Valyrian? Then how could the IB and Sealord be in cahoots?
  • And what about Balon's killer, Eurons dragon egg, Jaqen/Alchemist/Pate, the Citadel and secret dragon book, Gerion and Brightroar, Red keep (dragon skulls?) and the Wall (forgotten eggs there or at Winterfell in crypts?)
  • And dont forgot all the other million subtle references by GRRM about their influencing of events all over Planetos. The Grand blah blah blah conspiracy

I’m out of time just now, will come back later. :)

 

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Jaqen H'ghar, Alchemist, fakePate - I think that his real original name/identity is Syrio Forel.

The kindly man - the current Sealord of Braavos, Ferrego Antaryon.

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

NOTE: Since many believe (Im uncertain) that the FM/HoBaW, Sealord of Braavos, Iron Bank are all in their scheme together....please clear that up or use that to clear up my doubhts

Just read the history of Braavos' founding in the World Book and the history of Iron Bank and the keyholders. From that info it's fairly obvious that Iron Bank and Faceless Men not only have the same origin, but also are still parts of the same organisation. And based on the scene of Braavos' revelation to the outside world, it seems that the Sealord of Braavos is the leader of the Faceless Men. If that Sealord was the leader, then isn't it likely that all the Sealords after him also were leaders of the Faceless Men and heads of Iron Bank? Otherwise why would Faceless Men use an iron coin as their identification sign?

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8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’ve seen that idea being proposed many times over the years. Never made any sense to me, though. A lot of people assume/interpret that the FM are a death cult; mostly based on having and training assassins, and the whole “all men must die”. But to me that points in the opposite direction. All men must die means that life must follow the natural cycles of life, all living things must eventually die. The wights are undead, they’re the opposite of the natural cycle of life. So, may take is, if the FM aligns w/ anyone in the upcoming battle for the Dawn, it will be whoever is fighting against the Others.

It's the valar dohaeris part that makes me wonder about the Others. It's all men must die followed by all men must serve. Are the wights serving? Is it that you die and then after death you serve?

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11 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:
  • The fat fellow
  • The handsome man
  • The lordling
  • The squinter
  • The starved man
  • The stern face
  • Plague face

The fat fellow - he is either Bessaro Reyaan a keyholder of Iron Bank, or he is Izembaro the King of the Mummers. Or maybe he is both.

The handsome man - Qarro Volentin, the current First Sword.

The lordling - Tormo Fregar, possibly he is also The Third Sword.

The squinter - Beqqo, a blind fishmonger.

The starved man - Brusco a fishmonger. If he is Brusco, then maybe the cook Umma is his wife, and the mother of Brea and Talea, Brusco's daughters. His wife is a cook, but he is a starved man, because she is always not home, she is working at the House of Black and White and prepares food for the priests, while her own husband is starving at home.

The stern face - Noho Dimittis, a representative of the Iron Bank, who was sent to negotiate with Cersei.

Plague face - Phario Forel a playwright, or Tagganaro an entertainer and thief.

 

The thing with Faceless Men is that they can have multiple identities, same as Syrio/Jaqen/Alchemist. So I think that all those FM in the list above have at least two identities that they use in Braavos.

Each of them has one identity, a persona who is a rich and influential Braavosi, a nobleman, keyholder or a member of Iron Bank, with a double name (like Tormo Fregar, Qarro Volentis, Oro Tendyris, Bessaro Reyaan, Noho Dimittis, Tycho Nestoris, Ferrego Antaryon, Syrio Forel, etc.), and a second identity, a persona who is closer to smallfolk, people who are minor traders of Braavos or mummers of the Ship (people such as Brusco (fishmonger), Beqqo (fishmonger), Pynto (innkeeper), Joss the Gloom (a mummer), Izembaro (a mummer), Tagganaro (dockside entertainer, cutpurse, and thief), etc.).

Edited by Megorova

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According to what Jaqen told Arya about the organization's origins, the Faceless Men originated in Valyria some time before the Doom.

The first faceless man was said to have been an slave overseer or the son of an overseer, someone who is high enough in the Valyrian hierarchy to receive an education but low enough that they can see the suffering of the slaves; the lowest class.

If the first faceless man was a Valyrian, then he would have been fine with using sorceries and magics to further his cause. The Valyrian phrases are a reminder of the organization's roots and place of origin.

The first faceless man was probably sympathetic to the plight of the slaves and after seeing how decadent the dragonlords of the 40 Families had grown. Valyria had the power to take over the entire known world but instead spent it all on internal power struggles for prominence within Valyria, dividing themselves. This is probably how the faceless men were able to succeed, because when the mages started getting killed, each of the 40 Families suspected one another of doing the killing, instead of an external foe. And because they were so divided, they could never unite and investigate the threat together, which would have exposed the faceless men, ending the organization there and then.

Harlan Hoare is only one of many people "rumored" to have been killed by Faceless men. Because they are known for making the death of their targets seem like accidents, when someone powerful dies suddenly, the faceless men are the first to be suspected. I believe that this is actually a ploy that they deliberately use to enhance their aura and power, giving the impression of an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, and ever present assassin's guild. Basically, it's their form of advertising.

Assassins only accepting a unfamiliar target is just common sense. It's easier for them to kill someone they don't know as opposed to someone they know. Because for all their training, they are still human and are thus susceptible to human emotions.

The faceless men and the Iron bank have always had a special relationship, though the extent of it is still unknown. For example, when the Rogare Bank got more powerful than the Iron Bank, two important members of their family suddenly died, sparking the beginning of the end for House Rogare.

King Aegon's letter could have said one of many things. My personal theory is that Rhaenys was pregnant when she was shot down and she managed to survive (in the Dance of Dragons, Baela managed to survive when Moondancer fell during the battle against Aegon II and Sunfyre by hanging on tight). The Dornish captured her and when they realized she was pregnant they spared her, but she then she died giving birth to the child. Nymor used the child as leverage to end the war putting it in a random castle. If Aegon continued burning down Dorne then he would likely kill his own child. Therefore he agreed to the treaty. Also, the 10 anniversary visit with his son Aenys was probably a chance to visit his child, who would probably be married into House Dayne to disguise the Valyrian traits of purple eyes, because House Dayne is already known for having purple eyes and the hair trait was recessive, which meant that there was a low chance it would show in future generations.

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15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Just read the history of Braavos' founding in the World Book and the history of Iron Bank and the keyholders. From that info it's fairly obvious that Iron Bank and Faceless Men not only have the same origin, but also are still parts of the same organisation.

If the FM/HoBaW have a really genuine nihilistic approach to everything, they should not be partial in choosing sides if it comes to Braavosi (who hate all things Valyrian from dragons to slavery and whatnot) versus Daenerys/Blackfyres/Targaryens or whatever of the Valyrian freehold is left all over the damn known world. 

But since the Iron Bank and Sealords are always inclined to be against possible Valyrian heirs like Dany AND her dragons, how would that work with the FM being impartial as specified in their idealogy? 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

And based on the scene of Braavos' revelation to the outside world, it seems that the Sealord of Braavos is the leader of the Faceless Men.

Care to explain that more clearly? Because it didn't seem so to me. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

If that Sealord was the leader, then isn't it likely that all the Sealords after him also were leaders of the Faceless Men and heads of Iron Bank?

Maybe.... then again... maybe not 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Otherwise why would Faceless Men use an iron coin as their identification sign?

Iron can mean anything. We have an Iron throne too if I remember correctly. (Shrug) 

 

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13 hours ago, Groo said:

It's the valar dohaeris part that makes me wonder about the Others. It's all men must die followed by all men must serve. Are the wights serving? Is it that you die and then after death you serve?

That's also why I mentioned the teaming up with Others earlier. And also their alleged hatred of their former slave masters, the Valyrians doesn't make any sense if they use the same language for mottos and stuff 

14 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Umma is Wyla. 

 

I'll let you guys figure out the rest. 

Now! Don't be so cruelly selfish as to keep Ur wisdom from us. 

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9 hours ago, BlackDragon98 said:

This is probably how the faceless men were able to succeed, because when the mages started getting killed,

I also have an idea about that. The mages controlled the 14 flames (volcanic chain obviously) from becoming unstable. 

Lot of them dying caused the damn Doom in the first place.

Could the Targaryens have not 'dreamed' it but used the FM to assert their superiority as the only dragonlords and dragonriders left? 

And I think there were only 13 volcanos. The 14 must be symbolic of the dragons. See my Unlucky numbers thread for more bout these. 

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2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

 

Now! Don't be so cruelly selfish as to keep Ur wisdom from us. 

Fine fine fine, here is the waif's backstory: 

AFfC, Cat of the Canals

“I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father’s heir,” the waif replied. “My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father’s wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father’s wife received the gift.”  

 

Let us consider the narrative viewpoint switching between that of Ashara Dayne and Aegon VI. It plays with the truth/lie game that is underlining this discussion.

Lets look at the quote: 

1. "an ancient house": That fits house Dayne. Maybe more so than it fits the Targaryens.  

2. "my noble father's heir": Aegon is Rheagar's heir, and Rhaegar is described as "noble" in the books 

3. "My mother died when I was little": Elia died when Aegon was a baby 

4.  "When I was six my father wed again": Aegon is the sixth in his line and heir to the throne. Rhaegar however wed again (Lyanna) even with him as his successor.  

5.  "His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own": Lyanna is described as kind and bared no ill will to Elia, but Ashara saw her as a threat to Elia's children (remember Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting, and they were really close).  

6. "Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die": Ashara poisoned Brandon with whispers that Rhaegar was using Lyanna (partly to get Lyanna away from Rhaegar). Elia is too meek to defend herself so that is what Ashara did.  

But that started a war and got her own child killed instead and "left me as you see me now, but I did not die (people think Ashara is dead). 

Note: Arya asks if the faceless god only took 2/3 of her father's wealth, and the waif said yes. 

The father is Rhaegar and he had three children, two of them survive, one of them didn't 

Ashara regrets betraying Rhaegar (by trying to split Lyanna from him) and is now in the house of black and white for penance. So was the son (Aegon) who is the "red hand" which symbolizes vengeance. Aegon is the red hand, the tool used to avenge his father.   

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4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

But since the Iron Bank and Sealords are always inclined to be against possible Valyrian heirs like Dany AND her dragons, how would that work with the FM being impartial as specified in their idealogy? 

You're forgetting that the current Sealord in the past tried to help Dany and Viserys by arranging marriage pact with Martells. And he let them live in his city. And for some reason he gave away owned by him three dragon eggs, that eventually ended up in Dany's posession, and she hatched dragons from them. I think that the current Sealord and his relatives are partially dragonseeds, they could be descendants of Otheryses, three bastard-children of Aegon IV and the First Black Pearl. Also it is a known fact that the current Black Pearl is Bellegere's and Aegon's descendant, but the current Sealord, and those that were before him allowed to those Black Pearls to keep working in Braavos, even though they are dragonseeds, and by your logic should have been either evicted from Braavos or even executed, because Braavosi are supposedly so anti-Valyrian.

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Care to explain that more clearly? Because it didn't seem so to me. 

All that theatrics and mummery is exactly in FM's stile.

FM are mummers, actors. And the revelation of Braavos was a big scale performance. Thus the Sealord Uthero Zalyne was a leader of the Faceless Men (if he wasn't their leader, then they wouldn't have allowed him to reveal Braavos to the outside world), and because he also had control over Iron Bank (because he sent their envoys to Valyria, with money to pay for stolen ships), it means that Iron Bank and FM are the same organisation and that they are headed by the Sealord of Braavos.

"The Uncloaking of Uthero also known as the Unmasking of Uthero was an event in Braavosi history in which the city, until then secret to the rest of the nations and realms of the world, announced its existence. It is named after Uthero Zalyne, who first dispatched envoys of the Iron Bank to Valyria to pay settlements to the grandchildren of the owners of the ships Braavos' founders had seized - but not the value of the escaped slaves - and then sent forth ships throughout the world announcing the existence and location of Braavos and inviting the men of all nations to celebrate the 111th anniversary of the city's founding.

The anniversary of the Uncloaking is still celebrated in a ten day festival of masks and revelry. In the midnight of the tenth day the Titan of Braavos roars and all celebrants and revelers remove their masks as one.[1]"

<- he invited spectators to watch their grand performance. And each anniversary of Braavos is celebrated with parade-masquerade. Faceless Men are not faceless, instead, same as their God, they are manyfaced, i.e. they play roles. And what Waif was teaching to Arya was acting. 1/10 of their abilities is based on blood magic (those skin masks), the rest 9/10 is acting and usage of theatrical makeup, props and disguises. Uthero Zalyne had authority to reveal Braavos to the outside world, he had auhtority over Iron Bank; if debtors of Iron Bank don't pay their dues, they are offed by the Faceless Men, who are "debt collectors" of Iron Bank; FM was teaching Arya to impersonate other people, to act, while doing that they were using theatrical props (wigs, fake noses, moles, etc.); the Uncloaking of Braavos was a grand city scale performance - based on all of that, isn't it logical that the Sealord of Braavos is a mummer and a leader of other mummers/Faceless Men?

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5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I also have an idea about that. The mages controlled the 14 flames (volcanic chain obviously) from becoming unstable. 

Lot of them dying caused the damn Doom in the first place.

Could the Targaryens have not 'dreamed' it but used the FM to assert their superiority as the only dragonlords and dragonriders left? 

And I think there were only 13 volcanos. The 14 must be symbolic of the dragons. See my Unlucky numbers thread for more bout these. 

I think the Targaryens left not just because of the dream but because Aenar had other problems at court, rival houses among the 40. Otherwise why would he leave so early, like 12 years before the Doom as opposed to 5 or 6 years?

The faceless men ignored the Targaryens because they thought that they were too weak to be a threat, only 5 dragons and not much power.

When the operation started, the Targaryens were left along because the Faceless men didn't feel it was worth it to go all the way to Dragonstone just for a family that they perceived to be the weakest of the 40.

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17 minutes ago, BlackDragon98 said:

Otherwise why would he leave so early, like 12 years before the Doom as opposed to 5 or 6 years?

Varys has been plotting for nearly two decades to reinstate Targ/Blackfyres/Dragonseeds to the Iron throne. Littlefinger all his life for himself.

It certainly would take time for the FM to kill the unknown number of mages controlling the 14 flames on Targaryen orders. As you yourself said, they were the weakest.... who could have wanted to be the strongest.

And Megorova's points about Braavosi/IB/Sealord/FM/HoBaW being not so hateful against them as they would like the general public to believe is also supportive of my idea. Which I accepted Meg, only wasn't sure why until now. 

22 minutes ago, BlackDragon98 said:

When the operation started, the Targaryens were left along because the Faceless men didn't feel it was worth it to go all the way to Dragonstone just for a family that they perceived to be the weakest of the 40.

If they were the weakest with ONLY FIVE DRAGONS, FM novices would have been enough to take care of the Targaryens. Who wouldn't like a dragon or 5 anyway? As we see with Dany's infinite suitors, everyone. 

The events are same to both of us, we differ in the diagnosis of motives and agendas. Thats all

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The FM never proved to be against Valyrian race, dragons or dragonlords. But they clearly were against slavery(Khm....Slaver's Bay).

Anyway, after Jaehaerys I couldn't get te dragon eggs back from the Braavosi Sealord, the Iron Bank and the Iron Throne even had an agreement(idk what to call it, since then the Iron Bank gives money to Westeros(tho Targs ruled it) but I bet they didn't had deals with slavers from Slaver's Bay).

I don't want to explain why the IB, the FM and the Sealord work together, if you open your eyes, you can realize it. 

One hard fact: Jaqen did not went to Westeros only for the Book "Death of Dragons", because when he started that journey, dragons weren't even reborn. I don't understand why he goes for the book after escaping, I mean, where did he get the instructions? Maybe here comes in him becoming rougeFMrouge.

But here is this: If there is any FM who came from Westeros, then, if they get a job(or wattever) there, they would probably send him, as it would be easier for him speaking the langauage and knowing the lands, culture, etc... than to someone who never sptepped in Westeros. So Jaqen might be Westerosi? Likely. Him being Gerion? Whoknows. We'll seeeee....

For the ones who are lost in this topic: I am lost too, I do not understand why Braavos puts his money on two horses(Dany and Stannis), unless it's not worth it, or might we misunderstood something?

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10 hours ago, HerblYY said:

The FM never proved to be against Valyrian race

Valyrians were the biggest slavers/at least slave owners or users before they went the way of the dodo after the Doom. No wait. There are the Targaryens.... 

10 hours ago, HerblYY said:

But they clearly were against slavery(Khm....Slaver's Bay).

Anyway, after Jaehaerys I couldn't get te dragon eggs back from the Braavosi Sealord, the Iron Bank and the Iron Throne even had an agreement(idk what to call it, since then the Iron Bank gives money to Westeros(tho Targs ruled it) but I bet they didn't had deals with slavers from Slaver's Bay).

Okok. I never said the FM were NOT against Slaver's bay. 

10 hours ago, HerblYY said:

don't want to explain why the IB, the FM and the Sealord work together, if you open your eyes, you can realize it

@Megorovatold it better, but thank you too.

10 hours ago, HerblYY said:

One hard fact: Jaqen did not went to Westeros only for the Book "Death of Dragons", because when he started that journey, dragons weren't even reborn. I don't understand why he goes for the book after escaping, I mean, where did he get the instructions? Maybe here comes in him becoming rougeFMrouge.

But here is this: If there is any FM who came from Westeros, then, if they get a job(or wattever) there, they would probably send him, as it would be easier for him speaking the langauage and knowing the lands, culture, etc... than to someone who never sptepped in Westeros. So Jaqen might be Westerosi? Likely. Him being Gerion? Whoknows. We'll seeeee....

I said he's rogue (as u asked, where else could he have gotten instructions) and I still stand by my earlier statement. And thanks... We'll seeeee.... S.... We'll seeeee

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4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Valyrians were the biggest slavers/at least slave owners or users before they went the way of the dodo after the Doom. No wait. There are the Targaryens.... 

Okok. I never said the FM were NOT against Slaver's bay. 

@Megorovatold it better, but thank you too.

I said he's rogue (as u asked, where else could he have gotten instructions) and I still stand by my earlier statement. And thanks... We'll seeeee.... S.... We'll seeeee

I talked about the valyrian RACE, not the Valyrian Freehold, but a target won't be more likely for them to kill just because it has silver hair and purple eyes.

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On 9/8/2020 at 5:40 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I’m out of time just now, will come back later. :)

Sure... And here's more to chew on. The descriptions of the FM certainly would match at least some of the characters mentioned by Meg and others too. And we are not allowed to believe in coincidences. 

Ill list the descriptions of the FM at the end of this post. No. Next post

One more thing. The kindly man says he does not know anyone by the name of Jaqen. Since they are expert liers, does anyone think he knows all about Jaqen and his true identity?

20 hours ago, HerblYY said:

talked about the valyrian RACE, not the Valyrian Freehold

Were there any others of pureblooded Valyrian race stock other than in the Freehold? And no BS like the Lyseni and Old Volantenes. They are not considered Valyrians like the Celtigars and Velaryons were/are (what the heck happened to them anyway? From one the greatest houses to nobody!?! ) 

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16 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ill list the descriptions of the FM at the end of this post. No. Next post

Hope I don't need to bother with Jaqen /Alchemist /Pate ? I'll do it anyway. 

Jaqen H'ghar has shiny long, straight hair streaming down across his shoulders, colored white on one side and red on the other. He is a slender, handsome young man with fine features, who always smiles. His voice is friendly. He speaks in the traditional manner of Lorathi, (easy to fake) omitting names and avoiding first and second grammatical persons.

He later changes his appearance, making his cheeks fuller, his eyes closer together, and his nose hooked. His hair is changed into a cap of tight black curls, whereas a scar appears on his right cheek. In his new appearance, he has a shiny golden tooth.His new appearance largely resembles the appearance of the alchemist.

Anyone strike your mind? Like Taena's ship captain lover from Myr for instance? 

KINDLY MAN

When he first shows his face to Arya it is a yellow skull with scraps of skin hanging from it and a white worm coming out of an eye hole. (inconsequential) After Arya kisses him and bites the worm, his face changes to that of the kindliest old man she ever saw. He wears a robe with cowl of black on the right side and white on the left side.

No one strikes me. Could be anyone. 

WAIF

The waif appears to be a pale little girl with a gaunt bony face, hollow cheeks, and very large dark EYES. She wears the cowled robe of a priest of the Faceless Men, black on the right side and white on the left side

Revealing her identity depends on how true her story was. 36 or 16? Poisoned or not? Ancient house or not? From Which continent? 

FAT FELLOW 

He is fat and fierce black eyes, with a hook nose and a wide mouth full of yellow teeth.

Arya would have recognized if it was Illyrio coz of his immense girth (impossible to hide), forked beard and graceful walk (of a water dancer) she noticed earlier in the Red keep. 

HANDSOME MAN 

He has a beard of a different color every time he comes to the House of Black and White, and a different nose, but he is never less than comely

Tyroshi??? Duh. (Shrug) 

LORDLING

No description. Must be young obviously. Dressed well. Comes through FRONT Door. 

STARVED MAN

No description. Thin obviously, maybe to the point of ribs showing. Secret tunnel entry, not front door. Afraid of being seen? 

SQUINTER

No description other than squinting (not squint eye?) Secret tunnel, not front door. Afraid of...? 

STERN FACE

He never smiles; his eyes are pale, his lips full and dark. 

TYWIN + VAMPIRE ROOSE??? 

PLAGUE FACE 

His face bears the marks of plague; his cheeks are covered with weeping sores, his hair has fallen out, and blood drips from a nostril and crusts at his eyes

Fake obviously. Wait! Varys is also an expert in disguises. And he did something like this with Tyrion and Shae IIRC. 

His interaction with Arya and giving assignment is of more interest to me. 

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28 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Sure... And here's more to chew on. The descriptions of the FM certainly would match at least some of the characters mentioned by Meg and others too. And we are not allowed to believe in coincidences. 

Ill list the descriptions of the FM at the end of this post. No. Next post

One more thing. The kindly man says he does not know anyone by the name of Jaqen. Since they are expert liers, does anyone think he knows all about Jaqen and his true identity?

Were there any others of pureblooded Valyrian race stock other than in the Freehold? And no BS like the Lyseni and Old Volantenes. They are not considered Valyrians like the Celtigars and Velaryons were/are (what the heck happened to them anyway? From one the greatest houses to nobody!?! ) 

Jaqen H'ghar is an identity taken by our Westerosi FM, he's acting to his charachter, he doesn't have that kind of accent, as we've seen with the Alchemyst or with Pate. It is likely the Kindly Man knows who he is.

The other thing about Valyria: There were hundreds and thousands of Valyrian houses, they lived around everywhere, but the 40 dragonlord houses all lived on the Valyrian peninsula, yet it is said that when the Doom came, not only Targ dragons survived, there was Aurion along a deacent amount of other dragonriders, but they went to Valyria just to dissapear, and it is said that there were dragonriders during and after the Doom in Volantis, Lys an Tyrosh,(2-3 in each cityes), but they got killed off(the dragonriders, if I'm correct, not the dragons). I want to say with this tgat there weren't only 40 Valyrian houses, as house Velaryon was literally nothing compared to dragonlord houses. I'm tryna tell you with this that those other houses did not all live on the Valyrian peninsula. So those people who have the valyrian features or ancestors can be called to be of the valyrian race, yet it doesn't make someone more likely to be murdered by the FM. According to the "the blood of Old Valyria is strong on Lys and Volantis" , there should be at least a few thousand (maybe even a few hundred thousand, or more) people with the valyrian look.

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