The Trouble With Peace by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Lightsnake said:

Yeah, at no point does Leo ever think he's gonna do anything but 'save' Orso. Oro is dead on that Leo is stupid, vain and arrogant, plus making excuses for himself.

Savine just goes to "lol Orso gotta die" way too quick. Abercromie's gotta write the redemption arc of the century for this one, but it's really hard to justify why she isn't swinging next to Isher like a day after her kid as born.

Orso grasps immediately that whatever Leo might promise, the rebels will have no choice but to kill him - and his sisters, and mother, too.  Sending Terez to Sipani is insurance against his losing the war.

[Gaston de Foix]

3 hours ago, jurble said:

This might be linked to the Great Change being supernatural.  Book 3 might just randomly have Devils spilling into the world.

Sadly, that would also mean Bayaz would return to the peak of his power.  No more machines! No more debts! Everyone is a free man!  'cept Bayaz can summon tidal waves and hurricanes and iunno... shrink people and feed them to ants?

I hope this happens but I doubt it will.  If magic returns to the world then I predict Bayaz will be dead before it does.  It would be boring to have the same villain triumphing over and over. 

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Jappo's a shrewd man.  He needs peace.  In fact, 35 years of warfare between the Union, Styria, and the North, have resulted in almost no changes in boundaries between them, at the cost of tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives.  He guessed correctly that any deal he struck with Orso would hold, whereas Leo would be totally unreliable.  Nor did Leo help himself by making it plain he thought Jappo a degenerate.

I agree.  Although the warfare did result in Jappo being crowned the King of Styria.  

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I hope this happens but I doubt it will.  If magic returns to the world then I predict Bayaz will be dead before it does.  It would be boring to have the same villain triumphing over and over. 

I agree.  Although the warfare did result in Jappo being crowned the King of Styria.  

I like how Jappo completely wrong-footed Leo at the outset, by bluntly stating that, in fact, Orso has a very good claim to Tallins.

[Calibandar]

One quick question: Do we get a Logen appearance in this book? 

And if not, is anything said about him?

[Werthead]

28 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

One quick question: Do we get a Logen appearance in this book? 

And if not, is anything said about him?

No.

I think Logen's story was done in Red Country and I'd be surprised if he came back in The Wisdom of Crowds. Maybe a further stand-alone or short story.

[Caligula_K3]

6 hours ago, jurble said:

In his AMA on Reddit Joe said re:magic

 

This might be linked to the Great Change being supernatural.  Book 3 might just randomly have Devils spilling into the world.

Sadly, that would also mean Bayaz would return to the peak of his power.  No more machines! No more debts! Everyone is a free man!  'cept Bayaz can summon tidal waves and hurricanes and iunno... shrink people and feed them to ants?

I don't think the Great Change will be supernatural- I think the point of the paragraph you alluded to before wasn't that the Great Change would actually involve Euz and co. Just that people are attaching religious significance to social unrest.

[Gaston de Foix]

57 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I don't think the Great Change will be supernatural- I think the point of the paragraph you alluded to before wasn't that the Great Change would actually involve Euz and co. Just that people are attaching religious significance to social unrest.

As they have throughout history. 

But I do think there is some hints of the return of magic or its enduring significance (we may never know which) when Caurib talks about magic as the demon that cannot be caged.  Remember Rikke looking through a gap in the sky and seeing the meaning of everything? Maybe that could be the knowledge as to how to bring the circle of the world closer to the gates.  

[Mark Antony]

 

-I thought this after A Little Hatred but

Quote

She noticed that Zuri had a rip down one side of her dress, tightly wound bandages showing beneath

 really made me believe she is the East Wind. 

Thought Vick was kind of forgettable after my first read of A Little Hatrd but after re-reading last weekend and flying through this I would say she is my third favorite of the new povs behind Rikke and Orso. 

Shed some tears for Dogman

Was awesome to see Sulfur unleashed

I loved Jappo and loved that him and Orso got along

Pike being the weaver was kind of underwhelming to me idk why but Clover turning on Stour more than made up for it. Should have seen it coming. 

Poor Finree

 

 

[jurble]

It's a spoiler thread no need for umm hiding the spoilers @Mark Antony

In that same scene, 

Quote

Her shoulder, her side, her neck were one great stiff throb where she must have hit the ground.

Abercrombie, Joe. The Trouble with Peace: 2 (The Age of Madness) (p. 469). Orbit. Kindle Edition. 

I wonder if instead of hitting the ground, this was Ishri/Zuri smacking into her and carrying her out of the blast + whiplash. 

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

  Hide contents

-I thought this after A Little Hatred but

 really made me believe she is the East Wind. 

Thought Vick was kind of forgettable after my first read of A Little Hatrd but after re-reading last weekend and flying through this I would say she is my third favorite of the new povs behind Rikke and Orso. 

Shed some tears for Dogman

Was awesome to see Sulfur unleashed

I loved Jappo and loved that him and Orso got along

Pike being the weaver was kind of underwhelming to me idk why but Clover turning on Stour more than made up for it. Should have seen it coming. 

Poor Finree

 

 

Very well spotted about the bandages.  That puts it beyond doubt, I think.

[jurble]

random thought:  Bayaz is all about the free-market right?  So if Orso decided to start auctioning off the right to offer gov't loans (banks would bid interest rates i.e. bond auctions basically), then he could hardly protest could he?

[Lightsnake]

Bayaz is "whatever the hell I decide is best at any given moment." If Orso decided to use the free market for a measure Bayaz didn't approve of, there'd be some serious displeasure felt.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, jurble said:

random thought:  Bayaz is all about the free-market right?  So if Orso decided to start auctioning off the right to offer gov't loans (banks would bid interest rates i.e. bond auctions basically), then he could hardly protest could he?

If Bayaz thought that revolutionary socialism served his interests, and he could be the man behind the man, he'd support the Breakers.  One thing that revolutionary socialists are very good at is organising a society to fight wars, and that might suit Bayaz.

[Corvinus85]

Finished, and greatly enjoyed. Even though there were times when the pacing was slow, and I did find it a bit disappointing that we got so little Vick in between Westport and the build up of the rebellion, and I found Broad and Clover to still be almost secondary characters.

Loved the call backs to other characters, enjoyed Orso immensely, Vick was great, Rikke was strong, and Leo's downfall was entirely satisfying. I thought Savine's going head first in this was a bit out of character, but between her PTSD, her pregnancy, and maybe a touch of recklessness inherited from her parents, it was fine. For all her business acumen, she was out of her element in this, and it showed. You could say this was set up in ALH, with the lesson that she got, but not completely learned, from Gorst. 

I am more convinced now that Shenkt = King Casamir. It would be cheeky of him to keep his given name and change his family name. His non-descript appearance lends another argument to the falsities on which the Union is built. All the paintings and statues of him are all lies.

I agree that Zuri still not being confirmed as an Eater is a very slow reveal, but the clues are piling. I hope this isn't a red herring.

I don't think I've seen a better downfall so far in Joe's books than Leo's. He paid for his hubris, arrogance, and attitudes. At the same time, I think he also earned the possibility of a redemption arc. I think he may be the new Glokta in some ways, but not necessarily an inquisitor, just someone who will now finally change his narrow views of the world, and perhaps do something useful for society as a result.

I did not expect Stour's fate at the end, but it was nice. He was pretty much king-for-a-day. I'm thinking that Clover's reasoning about Stour not earning his name was just for everyone else's ears; I did not find it believable. Clover was after vengeance for Wonderful and waited to pick his moment. I suppose Stour will now be called Stour Downfall. 

I was a bit disappointed there wasn’t more with Glokta. Joe kept bringing attention to the squeaking of his chair, and I thought maybe when the Weaver was going to be revealed he would be introduced with characters hearing that sound. Oh well. It became apparent that Pike was the Weaver as the battle was approaching. It was a bit underwhelming, though. In the original ALH thread we had, I made a comment that the bald weaver from Rikke’s vision did not necessarily equate to the Weaver of the Breakers, and I’m glad that is true.

I agree that the technological advancements of the Union are a bit lopsided. I wonder what is in the materials of the steam engine that cannot be duplicated by the cannons. Joe doesn’t have the excuse of saying it’s a fantasy world with magic in it, when we keep hearing about magic leaking out of the world. But maybe I can think of one thing: the gunpowder here is called Gurkish fire, no? So maybe it’s not the metallurgy that’s the problem but the substance that technically should be gunpowder but maybe it’s more potent. And maybe that’s why there don’t seem to be handgunners in the army, because they can't quite get smaller weapons to work. You would think that if portable guns were available for infantry, the Union would have formed some companies of handgunners by now, at least 15^th century style ones, if not 16^th century.

I didn’t realize the guy with the dice mask was Friendly until I read @The hairy bear's post. It’s the guy with the dice mask, right?

It is very strange that there is no apparent mystery surrounding Jezal's death. (And I didn't see anyone here bring it up) Sure, there was no evidence of foul play, but going into this book, I expected someone to dig up something, and some clues to be passed between characters. I don't believe it was natural causes. So maybe book 3?

Not much to say on Rikke's visions. The chapters when she is with Caurib were not easy to follow, and I gave up on attempting to discern all the visions, but I enjoyed that chapter with her going backwards in time. There were a few visions earlier in the book that I think came to fruition already, and I even predicted one as I was reading: the two old men fighting in the Circle was Red Hat vs Oxel. I did not the second part with Shivers coming, so that was nice. I think the two women holding hands were Terez and Shalere, though I don't know where the golden dome was. And when Rikke saw the throne with the eye banner behind it, but she couldn't remember who was sitting in it, I guess she couldn't see herself.

It's amazing how well Joe can write his characters. Terez became much more human, and thus more likable after one short segment.

I've got probably more to say, but enough for now.

[unJon]

Finished. Really enjoyed. Have a lot to say but just a few quick initial reactions to this thread. 
 

Great call for those that predicted Pike as Weaver. I did not buy that theory. 
 

I still like my prediction that Broad will be the owl that swallows the lamb. They are setting him up as a warrior for Breakers/Burners. 

Missed the Friendly appearance. Will need to reread that chapter. What confirmed that Jappo is Shivers son?

Agree that Shenkt could be the old king Casimir. Would be nice. 

I also noticed the bandages wrapped around Zuri and thought she could be East Wind. Why did all these Eaters attaches themselves to Savine? I don’t have a clue. However, I thought Zuri was with Savine when she met Bayaz. Will need to look again to confirm. Would Bayaz not recognize an Eater?

The stakes seem smaller for this trilogy than the first. The conflict is internal to the Union. I hope the conclusion brings an existential threat to Bayaz and isn’t just about the French Revolution. 

I suspect we will se Glotka in the conclusion. And he will be on the side of the Breakers.

Leo was my least favorite POV. Glad with how it all ended there. 

Im curious how the Rikke POV will be integrated into the Union plot. Surely they have to bring everyone back together for the big climax, but there also seems plenty to do in the North with Black Calder still out there.

Vick has really grown on me. Loved the character development this book. 
 

For the person asking if there was a Bloody Nine sighting, remember there may have been one last book in a Broad POV in Valbeck. 
 

ETA: And Isher is still out there. I think there’s more to him than meets the eye. He really was the impetus for everything that went down with the revolution. And am I remembering correctly that Isher is the one related to Selest dan Heugan??

[Corvinus85]

10 minutes ago, unJon said:

Missed the Friendly appearance. Will need to reread that chapter. What confirmed that Jappo is Shivers son?

Orso thought that Jappo's skin was more pale, like a Northman's. Native Styrians, in general, have a bit darker skin.

[The hairy bear]

On 9/16/2020 at 7:14 PM, jurble said:

I thought the Nail had a bit of characterization in the previous book and was a dick? 

Not really. The Nail is mentioned as the one who leads Black Calder's forces when they launch the surprise attack on the Dogman's men, during the battle of the Red Hill. He's the one Rikke sees in her vision, allowing the Dogman to send Shivers to scout the woods. But there's no interaction with him during the first book.

On 9/16/2020 at 7:14 PM, jurble said:

re:Savine - I think she is smarter than Cersei and nearly as smart as she thought she was.  Though, I believe she had received more help from her father in her investments than she perhaps knew.   But the incident in Valbek broke her brain and motivated some very unwise choices.

I don't see Savine as being that smart, to be honest. And I'm sure that more than Glokta, it was king Jezal the one who discretely made sure that her investments turned up great, because he felt guilty for having abandoned her. I would bet that the reason that she starts to lose money in book two is more related to Jezal's death than any post-traumatic stress disorder caused by Valbeck. After all, before she went there she had already underestimated Selest and passed over Arinhorm's offer of partnership.

We can't blame her for all that went badly with the rebellion, but she mad a few missteps on her own. Her idea to give weapons to the Burners was terrible. And trusting in Leo's capabilities as a negotiator with Jappo was unwise.

On 9/17/2020 at 12:17 AM, Lightsnake said:

Also, place your bets...is Leo the father of Savine's child, or is it actually Orso?

It seems clear that the kid is Leo's.

Savine hasn't delivered when TTWP ends, by early autumn 605. This means that the child was conceived, at the earliest, on early winter 604. This is when she had sex with Leo. The last time she had sex with Orso would be before she went to Valbeck, in Summer 604.

22 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I am more convinced now that Shenkt = King Casamir. It would be cheeky of him to keep his given name and change his family name.

FWIW, Joe mentioned in reddit's AMA that royal names are common in the Union ("You get a lot of folks named after famous kings, like Harod and Casamir").

Also, would Bayaz allow the glorification of Casamir (statue in the Kingsway, his banner at the front of the armies,...) if he had been a pupil who betrayed him? One would expect that he would have been victim to damnatio memoriae.

22 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I didn’t realize the guy with the dice mask was Friendly until I read @The hairy bear's post. It’s the guy with the dice mask, right?

Yep! BEsides the mask, he's described as "solid", silent, emotionless and grey-haired (he should be old by now), and with blank eyes. He gives the results in Friendly's signature way, and Orso notices that he passes the dices to the players "with a slightly pained look, as though it hurt to let go of them".

22 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

It is very strange that there is no apparent mystery surrounding Jezal's death. (And I didn't see anyone here bring it up) Sure, there was no evidence of foul play, but going into this book, I expected someone to dig up something, and some clues to be passed between characters. I don't believe it was natural causes. So maybe book 3?

I've thought of it, but who could be the culprit? Who could benefit from Jezal's death? Not Bayaz, who had completely tamed him. Not the Closed Council, who had nothing to gain with the ascension of a new young king. Not even the Breakers, I think, as they had no reason to believe that Orso would be more favorable to their interests.

But it's a possibility.

22 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

 I think the two women holding hands were Terez and Shalere, though I don't know where the golden dome was.

It's mentioned that the reconstructed Lord's Round has a huge gilded dome. So in all likelyhood the two women would be Savine and Isolt, about to be married to Leo and Lord Isher.

[Lightsnake]

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Orso thought that Jappo's skin was more pale, like a Northman's. Native Styrians, in general, have a bit darker skin.

This. Orso immediately thinks that Jappo looks more like a Northman than a Styrian, which IMO was a dead giveaway.

[shortstark]

Whoever said Stour Downfall up thread big up yourself. I was pissed at Joe for that last Clover Wonderful scene in A Little Hatred and the taking down of Stour has partly made amends.. lovely book, probably the best one yet, Joe is at the heights of his story telling powers. I have no nits to pick, everything worked for me Rikke is my new favorite character and Vick and Joppo.. u see where this is leading....

[shortstark]

I hope we learn more about the Shanka's ability to bring back ppl from the dead though..