The Trouble With Peace by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[Jerry Drake]

59 minutes ago, Mick of House Guinness said:

The child is not Orso's. Unless she has slept with someone other than Leo in the meantime, he is definitely the father.

Yeah, then it's definitely that. I mean you could technically make some convoluted way in which it might be otherwise, but it's clearly Leo's child. 

[Lightsnake]

Hopefully Leo is thrown in a small cell to rot for the rest of hi life, never to see his family again. Thrown Savine in another, but she seems likely to skip out from real consequences on getting hundreds of people killed in an attempt to murder her brother for the sake of her own vanity

[Maithanet]

Finished the book last night.  Overall, I enjoyed it although the plodding first half was a pretty big problem, and thus I would rank it below either ALH or BTAH.  In addition, several times characters were making decisions that seemed pretty forced, which reduces the enjoyment for me. 

 - The most glaring is Savine's decision to rush into the rebellion against Orso.  People have brought up that Orso is her brother, and plotting to get him killed is pretty messed up, but IMO that was only half the problem with that scene.  Savine never even considered whether the rebels like Isher were truly trustworthy and whether this rebellion had any hopes of success.  Which is a huge thing to leave out of your calculations. 

Because the entire invasion was very half baked.  I felt like Abercrombie really undersold the difficulties of launching a cross channel invasion.  How did they get the horses across?  If every man was carrying his own provisions, armor and weapons, you aren't going to fit very many men on each boat.  And yet they got an army of 4,000 Anglanders plus at least several dozen horses across in...one day?  Two?  Did the Anglanders seize a portion of the Union navy and it just wasn't mentioned?  Why wasn't the Union Navy onhand to stop the crossing altogether?  On the whole, Abercrombie was pretty generous to the rebels to get as close as they did to victory. 

[SkynJay]

I just finished it.

First off, a confession.  I was starting to think maybe Joe had peaked with The Heroes; I wasn't a fan of Red Country and my first read of Little Hatred was OK, but didn't stick with me. 

But I LOVED this book all the way through.  I have a couple of small quibbles, but they are very slight.  This book has caused me to grab my copy of A Little Hatred and I plan on reading them again, back to back.  Honestly, he still manages to surprise me at times, and part of that is NOT using his obvious set ups every time (though sometimes he delays them, I still wonder if Bayaz isn't behind the Breakers in some way).

My Favorites:  Orzo's entire Journey, Vick's chapters, Jabbo is a DELIGHT.  I also love that Savrine is never as in charge of the situation as she thinks she is.  I really hope Orzo comes out of this in a good place, I am actually starting to like a character in Abercrombie's world.

It will take me a while to digest this thread but I already see things I agree with and disagree with.  Savine's quickness to accept the treason seems perfectly reasonable to me; she quickly realized she was damned anyway so might was well try to use it to her advantage.  On the other hand, I agree a bit more on the logistics of two armies moving across the sea would have been nice; not everyone likes those dry chapters but I have never minded them and they help keep the quibble out of things.

One last thing, I would maybe think of Abercrombie's history when looking at Rikke's original vision.  I woudl not be suprised if the final lines are not SUPER OBVIOUS buy halfway through book 3...and then just not happen.  Because that is often how things work in this world.   

[BigFatCoward]

Put me in the 'couldnt give a shit about logistics camp'. It wouldn't spoil it for me, but I dont care. If it was a non fiction book about a battle I'd be interested, but in fantasy? Meh. 

[Jerry Drake]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Put me in the 'couldnt give a shit about logistics camp'. It wouldn't spoil it for me, but I dont care. If it was a non fiction book about a battle I'd be interested, but in fantasy? Meh. 

I completely agree. I don't see it as a story about a rebellion but as a story about delusional schemes nobility (and people in general) would work themselves into in order to grab more power. All the military and training and logistics are of secondary importance. I think that is why Joe left Leo to live on, so he and the child can be used as martyrs for the Monarchist cause. I can see the third book establishing a revolutionary government in Midderland with Savine's and Leo's child emerging later on (in a future standalone perhaps) as a Duke of Chartres or perhaps a Napoleon III type of character.

Also, I liked how carefree Orso felt when the battle was going bad, reminded me of Cosca.

[Bernie42]

Finished it last night and really loved it. I think it might have been my favorite one of Joe’s books yet, even though there is some strong competition.

Some thoughts:

-          After finishing A Little Hatred I was convinced that Bayaz was behind the Breakers and until the last chapter of Trouble I continued to believe so. But the reveal of Pike being the weaver got me to thinking that Bayaz might not be behind the labor unrest after all. After sleeping over it for a night I am now really convinced, that the whole breakers thing was all planned by Glokta. He certainly has no love for Bayaz and this might be his scheme to get rid of him for good. It just doesn’t seem like the Glokta we know and love (as a character at least, not necessarily as a human being) to drop the ball so completely and then just accept defeat and go to the countryside and write a book about fencing. It would also explain why Bayaz has been underestimating the Breakers, since Glokta probably told him it was all under control. Bayaz is probably feeling pretty good about himself for defeating Kahlul (assuming he’s really dead) and has shown before that he has a very low opinion of mere mortals. With the other Magi rebuilding the Old Empire and Shenkt and Monza in Styria, Bayaz presumably has his hands full and likely relied on Glokta to handle something that might appear insignificant by comparison, like commoners being unhappy. If Glokta wanted to go after Bayaz, he would have to destroy his base of power, which is the Union monarchy and Valint & Balk. That’s exactly what the Breakers are doing. I’m not sure how Sevines marriage to Leo plays into this, if Ardee arranged it without Gloktas knowledge or if he arranged it himself, either hoping Sevine would prevent the civil war or knowing she would accelerate it. He seems to have placed three eaters in her entourage, so he could be pretty sure her personal safety was not put too much at risk. The eaters also indicate that Glokta has made some kind of pact with either the remnants of Kahluls people or that Kahlul is not dead after all. Zuri being the Eastwind (which is strongly implied) would also be in favor of Glokta going against Bayaz, since few have more reason to hat him than the Eaters and it’s hard to believe that Bayaz approved of Glokta employing them. And finally it makes sense from a narrative point, since we all came to expect Bayaz to be behind everything and Bayaz not seeing his downfall coming at all would be a neat twist and saving the books from becoming a bit repetitive with “a Wizzard did it”. I personally would also find it to be highly satisfying.

-          Is there any reason to believe that Rikke actually still has the long eye? Caurib tells her to choose between the long eye and a normal live, and as far as I can remember, we never hear what Rikke chooses. Unless I missed something we also never see a vision from Rikkes POV after that. She seems to be pretty sane, while it was certainly implied that there would be a price for keeping the eye. Everything she says she saw after getting the tattoos could either be something she saw before or something she just made up for her advantage, like predicting that guys water related death, which is pretty vague and helped to freak Stour out. I might be missing something here but I think she’s just bluffing.

-          I didn’t think Savines turn on Orso and Glokta was farfetched at all. She clearly suffers from PTSD and is heavily self medicating with what seems to be fantasy cocaine. And since Leo has defied the King in open council and made plans for treason already it is not unreasonable to assume that this is to far along and backing down now has still a chance of getting them hanged. So it is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” kind of situation. Plotting to kill Orso is pretty cold but she learned from Glokta, that you have to fully commit to something like this. And planning it is still pretty abstract; actually doing it is a completely different matter. But in hindsight it was all clearly a huge mistake and the best course of action would probably have been to cut the ties to the conspirators and sit the whole thing out in Angland, where Leo is de facto untouchable. But could she really rely on Leo to keep his mouth shut and don’t do anything stupid? I would not want to bet my life, or the life of my unborn child for that matter, on it. And they did come pretty close to winning the whole thing after all. They committed a lot of unforced errors, like leaving all the people who could actually organize an army at home and telling everyone and their mother about their plans with a lot more detail than needed. Also, the only intelligence source they had seemed to be Brint which really bit them in the ass, since again, they told a lot of people over having a source in the Closed Council. Still, if Orso’s cavalry hadn’t shown up or the Open council troops had been a little better organized, they likely would have won and Leo might not have been shot to pieces, so it’s not like the whoe thing never had a chance of succeeding. It’s just that the risk-reward ratio was honestly pretty terrible for Savine, Leo and pretty much all the other nobles.

 

Well, this was a lot more than I initially wanted to write but as I said, I really enjoyed the book. Can’t wait for September 2021!    

[Garlan the Gallant]

GRRM once posted an anecdote about Tolkien: Tolkien once attempted to write a book of what came after the LotR but stopped 30 pages in because he was dealing with the fall out of the war and less magical aspects of the story like lesser treatment of Orcs after the war. 
 

I’m finding a lot of similarities between this anecdote and this latest trilogy by Abercrombie. Abercrombie was one of my favorite authors all those years ago when the first trilogy was coming out. I got swept up in the backstory of Bayaz, the magic of the world, and the cold war between Bayaz and Khalul. Every book since then has had less “fantasy elements” in it than the previous one.

Im starting to think the next book will lead to Bayaz’s downfall and not by some magical confrontation but by something mundane, like getting stabbed by rioters. 
 

Personally, I’d much rather the book end with a second portal to the Other Side being opened. That sounds much more entertaining than nobles fighting over votes on the Open Council. If I wanted to read that, I’d go on MSNBC’s website.

[Gaston de Foix]

2 minutes ago, Garlan the Gallant said:

GRRM once posted an anecdote about Tolkien: Tolkien once attempted to write a book of what came after the LotR but stopped 30 pages in because he was dealing with the fall out of the war and less magical aspects of the story like lesser treatment of Orcs after the war. 
 

I’m finding a lot of similarities between this anecdote and this latest trilogy by Abercrombie. Abercrombie was one of my favorite authors all those years ago when the first trilogy was coming out. I got swept up in the backstory of Bayaz, the magic of the world, and the cold war between Bayaz and Khalul. Every book since then has had less “fantasy elements” in it than the previous one.

Im starting to think the next book will lead to Bayaz’s downfall and not by some magical confrontation but by something mundane, like getting stabbed by rioters. 

I sympathize with much of this.  And yet this novel is the first time we have gotten another side to the "magic dwindles from the world" perspective when Caurib describes magic as the demon that cannot be caged. 

There are so many stories we have not been told in the post-First Law world.  Ferro Majlin's assassination of Uthman-al-Dosht.  Her attempted attack on Khalul (did he survive?).   Is Tolomei still in the Maker's House?

And the two questions it seems I will be taking to my grave.  What happened to Bedesh? Where is Jaremias? 

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I sympathize with much of this.  And yet this novel is the first time we have gotten another side to the "magic dwindles from the world" perspective when Caurib describes magic as the demon that cannot be caged. 

There are so many stories we have not been told in the post-First Law world.  Ferro Majlin's assassination of Uthman-al-Dosht.  Her attempted attack on Khalul (did he survive?).   Is Tolomei still in the Maker's House?

And the two questions it seems I will be taking to my grave.  What happened to Bedesh? Where is Jaremias? 

Yes, Rikke's whole story shows that in places, magic is still going strong.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Garlan the Gallant said:

GRRM once posted an anecdote about Tolkien: Tolkien once attempted to write a book of what came after the LotR but stopped 30 pages in because he was dealing with the fall out of the war and less magical aspects of the story like lesser treatment of Orcs after the war. 
 

I’m finding a lot of similarities between this anecdote and this latest trilogy by Abercrombie. Abercrombie was one of my favorite authors all those years ago when the first trilogy was coming out. I got swept up in the backstory of Bayaz, the magic of the world, and the cold war between Bayaz and Khalul. Every book since then has had less “fantasy elements” in it than the previous one.

Im starting to think the next book will lead to Bayaz’s downfall and not by some magical confrontation but by something mundane, like getting stabbed by rioters. 
 

Personally, I’d much rather the book end with a second portal to the Other Side being opened. That sounds much more entertaining than nobles fighting over votes on the Open Council. If I wanted to read that, I’d go on MSNBC’s website.

I really enjoyed the magical/demonic elements of the first trilogy, and would like to see more.

[shortstark]

I want to know about the Shanka's ability with flesh and metal and Cauribs resurrection, elements of magic and technology I assume..

[Gaston de Foix]

7 hours ago, shortstark said:

I want to know about the Shanka's ability with flesh and metal and Cauribs resurrection, elements of magic and technology I assume..

I think it was Kanedias' knowledge.  He made the Shanka after all.  

[Caligula_K3]

I enjoyed some of the more magical elements when I re-read The First Law last year, but in the end I don't think they're necessarily Abercrombie's strength; all the stuff with Tolomei was especially weak. I'm pretty ok with the less magical world we've had since Best Served Cold, and even though there's some real awkwardness going from the Union of The First Law to the Union of the Age of Madness in one generation, I do love this industrial revolution setting for the new trilogy.

[The hairy bear]

I agree that the magical elements in the First Law were some of the weakest parts of the trilogy. Logen's fire-breathing abilities were forgotten, the appearance of the spirits had no pay-off at all, the actions of Quai/Tolomei made no sense, and the showdown at the House of the Maker was not as good as it should have been.

That said, I think that all those shortcomings are more attributable to Joe's inexperience as a writer (at that point) than any inherent problem with his approach to magic. I'm sure that if magic reemerges in the Circle of the World (as it seems that will), he'll be able to write it effectively.

[Maithanet]

I want to see more of Bedesh and the Other Side, but I agree that the magical stuff in First Law was often the weakest.  Logen talking to spirits especially feels like a complete WTF on the reread.  Where did he get this ability?  Why is it included in the story when the spirits never say anything of any importance? 

[Dez]

I think using the fantasy elements as mostly red herrings in the original trilogy was basically the point of the series. We are given an in world fantasy definition for what the First Law is-users of magic are forbidden to speak to devils. Then Abercrombie uses the whole series showing us how that is dead letter both in terms of the in world fantasy magic and how humans behave in general. Bayaz’s true First Law is “Might makes right” and his actual wizardry encompasses all the ways he ensures he’s on the winning end of that equation- whether mundane or magical. 

[Rhom]

Finished it a few minutes ago... I'll be back after reading approximately 130 posts or so.

Hope nobody has a dissertation in here! 

[Maithanet]

I just want to say that I was really surprised at how much I liked Orso in this book.  He was enjoyable in ALH, but much better this time.  Really a good effort from Abercrombie to portray a flawed, but nonetheless capable and empathetic man.  I think my favorite line in the book was when he finished his dinner with Leo.  After running circles around him the entire time, Leo excuses himself with "I'll see you on the battlefield", to which Orso responds "Bloody hell, I hope not!"

[Mark Antony]

Oreo is great. I’m extremely worried about how he will fare in the next book