The Trouble With Peace by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[Rhom]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I wouldn't dispute the second paragraph.  I just think Leo, Savine, Isher, would be even worse.  

Probably.  But it doesn’t make their reasons any less legitimate to them.

[Maithanet]

I agree that as depicted in the book that the rebellion was close to success.  I just felt like that only came about because Joe wanted it to be close and thus ignored many of the difficulties of waging a war like this (such as logistics, naval inferiority, internal backstabbing without a strong leader, etc).  And thus the entire time I was reading it, I was like "there's no way these fuckups are actually going to win, right?"  Not that the Union itself isn't terribly managed and weak, but even still. 

Orso and company clearly would have lost if it weren't for Rikke's note to Orso.  Where was the inquisition?  Was there not a single member who felt loyalty to the King to report this growing insurrection in Angland?  What about the lesser nobles in Angland, not a single one thought maybe they'd be rewarded for remaining loyal to the crown? 

I'm just saying an awful lot of things had to go right for the rebels to get as close to victory as they did. 

[Mentat]

38 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I wouldn't dispute the second paragraph.  I just think Leo, Savine, Isher, would be even worse.

Worse than who? It's easy to admire Orso, but one has to remember it's not really him who's in charge. It's the Closed Council, who have proven time and again they're ineffective bureaucrats who care little about anything except maintaining their own positions and keeping Bayaz happy. While Isher and his followers are conniving knaves with little in the way of redeeming qualities, Leo and Savine have shown some promise as prospective rulers. They may have had a downfall arc this book, accentuated by their foibles and mistakes, but ALH makes a good case of all they have going for them.

 

4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I agree that as depicted in the book that the rebellion was close to success.  I just felt like that only came about because Joe wanted it to be close and thus ignored many of the difficulties of waging a war like this (such as logistics, naval inferiority, internal backstabbing without a strong leader, etc).

 

It's hard to figure out fantasy logistics because there's so much we ignore. Maybe all these difficulties were not so and the rebels were aware (the fleet was otherwise engaged protecting the southern seas from pirates, the anonymous minor nobles were all fiercely loyal to the Brocks, Jurand painstakingly figured out all the logistics before falling from grace and we're simply spared the boring details...). Likely you're right, but since we don't know we simply have to take the book at its word.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Mentat said:

It's hard to figure out fantasy logistics because there's so much we ignore. Maybe all these difficulties were not so and the rebels were aware (the fleet was otherwise engaged protecting the southern seas from pirates, the anonymous minor nobles were all fiercely loyal to the Brocks, Jurand painstakingly figured out all the logistics before falling from grace and we're simply spared the boring details...). Likely you're right, but since we don't know we simply have to take the book at its word.

Sure, and it's not like it ruined the book or anything, it was just something I noticed, that it seemed like a lot of things just "fell into place" that in war have a tendency to go wrong rather than to go right.  It's sort of like people who insist the Germans should have invaded England in Summer 1940 because it works so well in Hearts of Iron. 

[Consigliere]

9 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Do we know who Judge is? I feel like we did and I missed it but I also feel like I'm getting two different series mixed up.

I think that Judge is a new character and hasn't appeared before in the series.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

I agree that as depicted in the book that the rebellion was close to success.  I just felt like that only came about because Joe wanted it to be close and thus ignored many of the difficulties of waging a war like this (such as logistics, naval inferiority, internal backstabbing without a strong leader, etc).  And thus the entire time I was reading it, I was like "there's no way these fuckups are actually going to win, right?"  Not that the Union itself isn't terribly managed and weak, but even still. 

Orso and company clearly would have lost if it weren't for Rikke's note to Orso.  Where was the inquisition?  Was there not a single member who felt loyalty to the King to report this growing insurrection in Angland?  What about the lesser nobles in Angland, not a single one thought maybe they'd be rewarded for remaining loyal to the crown? 

I'm just saying an awful lot of things had to go right for the rebels to get as close to victory as they did. 

I would say that what Joe wanted was a pitched battle, and he ignored anything he could ignore to accomplish that.

It make some sense that no one raised an alarm in Angland, because Leo keeping his troops in a state of readiness was justifiable. None of the Angland lords we saw, and we only saw the more powerful ones, were happy with the Union, so it would have been a bit of a swerve if suddenly a noble showed up out of nowhere to betray the beloved Young Lion. The inquisition not raising an alarm was a bit more of a head-scratcher. Maybe its resources there are limited, reduced only to running the prison camps, because Angland has mainly dealt with outside threats in recent years, not internal ones.

But the question is how is it that all those Midderland lords were able to raise several thousand levies and neither the Inquisition, nor the Crown looked closer at that. 

The truth is both side had piss-poor intelligence. The Crown would have been screwed without Rikke's warning, and even after that, the navy wasn't mobilized so they had no idea where the enemy was going to land. The rebels didn't truly know the Crown's capabilities, relying on untrustworthy allies to tell them and to keep the King's Own busy. They had no dedicated agents of their own.

That being said, the direct lead up to the battle and the battle itself were well done.  

[Maithanet]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I would say that what Joe wanted was a pitched battle, and he ignored anything he could ignore to accomplish that.

That is my impression as well.  And that felt a little forced to me.

Quote

It make some sense that no one raised an alarm in Angland, because Leo keeping his troops in a state of readiness was justifiable. None of the Angland lords we saw, and we only saw the more powerful ones, were happy with the Union, so it would have been a bit of a swerve if suddenly a noble showed up out of nowhere to betray the beloved Young Lion. The inquisition not raising an alarm was a bit more of a head-scratcher. Maybe its resources there are limited, reduced only to running the prison camps, because Angland has mainly dealt with outside threats in recent years, not internal ones.

But the question is how is it that all those Midderland lords were able to raise several thousand levies and neither the Inquisition, nor the Crown looked closer at that. 

The truth is both side had piss-poor intelligence. The Crown would have been screwed without Rikke's warning, and even after that, the navy wasn't mobilized so they had no idea where the enemy was going to land. The rebels didn't truly know the Crown's capabilities, relying on untrustworthy allies to tell them and to keep the King's Own busy. They had no dedicated agents of their own.

That being said, the direct lead up to the battle and the battle itself were well done.  

 

I am starting to think that the only explanation for the Crown's terrible intelligence is if Glokta and Pike were actively sabotaging things in order to make this battle happen.  My impression is that they don't particularly care if the king wins or loses, so long as the battle happens and saps Union strength.  This is also another factor in Glokta's stepping aside.  With Savine a leading rebel, Glokta could retire and be safe from a rebel execution.  But if he were still in place, no doubt he would be executed in the event of a rebel victory.  

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Pike and Glokta were working together to make the civil war happen and to position themselves effectively regardless of which side prevailed. 

[Ninefingers]

16 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

That is my impression as well.  And that felt a little forced to me.

I am starting to think that the only explanation for the Crown's terrible intelligence is if Glokta and Pike were actively sabotaging things in order to make this battle happen.  My impression is that they don't particularly care if the king wins or loses, so long as the battle happens and saps Union strength.  This is also another factor in Glokta's stepping aside.  With Savine a leading rebel, Glokta could retire and be safe from a rebel execution.  But if he were still in place, no doubt he would be executed in the event of a rebel victory.  

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Pike and Glokta were working together to make the civil war happen and to position themselves effectively regardless of which side prevailed. 

Or just Pike, really. 

Glotka is older, and given his condition likely in failing health. It's not much of a stretch to imagine him relying heavily on/trusting fully his right hand for the past few decades. 

[Maithanet]

4 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

Or just Pike, really. 

Glotka is older, and given his condition likely in failing health. It's not much of a stretch to imagine him relying heavily on/trusting fully his right hand for the past few decades. 

Glotka is not trusting of his subordinates, hence having to kill two of them in LAOK.  It's possible that Glotka has just gone soft in his old age, but I think the more likely explanation is that he is involved.  If not, and he's just been played by Pike for decades, that would be a pretty disappointing end for him. 

[All Cats Are Bad]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

I think that Judge is a new character and hasn't appeared before in the series.

I think Judge represents how seductive the idea of wanton destruction can be when gripped in that kind of revolutionary fervor. 

[ljkeane]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

I am starting to think that the only explanation for the Crown's terrible intelligence is if Glokta and Pike were actively sabotaging things in order to make this battle happen. 

I thought this was pretty explicit. Pike's plan was clearly to engineer a conflict between the Crown loyalists and the Open Council forces to weaken both sides. I think it's pretty unlikely Glokta didn't know about it but I suppose theoretically Pike could have cut him out of the loop.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Ninefingers said:

Or just Pike, really. 

Glotka is older, and given his condition likely in failing health. It's not much of a stretch to imagine him relying heavily on/trusting fully his right hand for the past few decades. 

I agree. I think we're putting too much on Glokta. His mind is still sharp, but I don't expect him to become the new defacto leader should Orso fall. Joe has, so far, written quiet, unceremonious deaths for Jezal and the Dogman. I fully expect Glokta to die in the 3rd book. Maybe one last act from him, something subtle, and that's it.

[Consigliere]

Glokta possibly being involved has nothing to do with him becoming de facto leader or anything like that. I think Glokta knows that his time is running out and this is his last opportunity to try and deliver a hammer blow to Bayaz. If Glokta is involved then it makes sense for him and Pike to be working together - with his failing health and inability to get around on his own anymore, he would need an accomplice who can travel, gather allies and coordinate things on the ground.

"Sometimes, to change the world, we must first burn it down" - Glokta.

[Caligula_K3]

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Sure, and it's not like it ruined the book or anything, it was just something I noticed, that it seemed like a lot of things just "fell into place" that in war have a tendency to go wrong rather than to go right.  It's sort of like people who insist the Germans should have invaded England in Summer 1940 because it works so well in Hearts of Iron. 

Yeah, I felt this too in the first half of the book. Everything just slides into place and everyone joins in the rebellion a little too smoothly. This is one of the reasons I enjoyed the Jappo chapter so much, because it finally threw cold water on the rebels.

Yeah, I still have to imagine that Glokta is involved in all this.

[All Cats Are Bad]

47 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I think we're putting too much on Glokta.

This. IMO the point that Glokta came to at the end of the first trilogy was that he was a part of the system. He could maybe do little things within the system, but ultimately he's a cog in a larger machine and he might as well perform his function to the best of his ability.

Contrast this with where Pike is at by this same point. He's survived the camps, survived the war, made it, miraculously, to within a knife's thrust of the man he's held in his mind as responsible for the ruin of his life. Glokta seemingly stays his hand by putting everything on Sult, but what he's really doing is putting everything on the system.

As soon as you realize Pike is the Weaver, literally everything about it actually makes complete sense and seemingly has all along.

[Maithanet]

5 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Everything just slides into place and everyone joins in the rebellion a little too smoothly. This is one of the reasons I enjoyed the Jappo chapter so much, because it finally threw cold water on the rebels.

Not only that, but it was entirely foreseeable that Brock would fail at diplomacy with Jappo.  So much so that when the chapter started I was like 'wait, Savine isn't even THERE?  Is she expecting this to fail, or has she already secured success through other means?'  But no, they just gave this super important task to Leo, who is utterly dismal at it.  Now maybe there was some hope that Leo wouldn't screw the pooch.  Jappo would probably hate the Union, and Leo is handsome and at times a bit charming, so maybe it could have worked.  But Leo is so incompetent that as I read it I seriously wondered if Savine wanted things to fall apart. 

[Ninefingers]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Glotka is not trusting of his subordinates, hence having to kill two of them in LAOK.  It's possible that Glotka has just gone soft in his old age, but I think the more likely explanation is that he is involved.  If not, and he's just been played by Pike for decades, that would be a pretty disappointing end for him. 

Would be kind of poetic wouldn't it?

Glotka was pressed into Bayaz's service against his will, and has chafed under it for years, looking to work slack into the leash. 

Hell, as Glotka said about Carlot  - First it is done to us, then we do it to others. 

Now if we see that Pike has been working slack into his leash, we can hardly say that Glotka didn't deserve it. 

 

[Maithanet]

35 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

Would be kind of poetic wouldn't it?

Glotka was pressed into Bayaz's service against his will, and has chafed under it for years, looking to work slack into the leash. 

Hell, as Glotka said about Carlot  - First it is done to us, then we do it to others. 

Now if we see that Pike has been working slack into his leash, we can hardly say that Glotka didn't deserve it.

If Glokta was happy as Bayaz's puppet and enforcer for the past 20 years, then he deserves whatever is coming to him (even more so - I've never liked Glokta).  But I don't see him being satisfied in that role. 

[Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Not only that, but it was entirely foreseeable that Brock would fail at diplomacy with Jappo.  So much so that when the chapter started I was like 'wait, Savine isn't even THERE?  Is she expecting this to fail, or has she already secured success through other means?'  But no, they just gave this super important task to Leo, who is utterly dismal at it.  Now maybe there was some hope that Leo wouldn't screw the pooch.  Jappo would probably hate the Union, and Leo is handsome and at times a bit charming, so maybe it could have worked.  But Leo is so incompetent that as I read it I seriously wondered if Savine wanted things to fall apart. 

Yeah, I also found it odd the Savine would not accompany Leo to Sipani for such an important mission especially given that Savine is well aware of Leo not being the sharpest tool in the shed. The only rationale I can come up with is that perhaps Savine believed that, despite Leo's shortcomings as a negotiator/diplomat, the offer of Westport would be too big a carrot for Jappo to turn down. But Leo  screwed the pooch even more than Savine could have anticipated by getting all patriotic and not even making the offer to Jappo that they had agreed to.

[Maithanet]

18 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Yeah, I also found it odd the Savine would not accompany Leo to Sipani for such an important mission especially given that Savine is well aware of Leo not being the sharpest tool in the shed. The only rationale I can come up with is that perhaps Savine believed that, despite Leo's shortcomings as a negotiator/diplomat, the offer of Westport would be too big a carrot for Jappo to turn down. But Leo  screwed the pooch even more than Savine could have anticipated by getting all patriotic and not even making the offer to Jappo that they had agreed to.

I can only assume that Savine was busy with other preparations.  We didn't explicitly see that, but it makes sense that her plate would be extraordinarily full at that point.