The Trouble With Peace by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[Corvinus85]

6 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

So did the events of this book change anyone's opinions of the Jezal scene?  After ALH, lots of people (myself included) thought that Jezal was murdered by Bayaz/Sulfur, even if it wasn't entirely clear for what purpose yet. 

But I feel like TTWP actually made it feel more plausible that it was just a random thing that happened.  It still feels a little hard to believe that the King, by all accounts in relatively good health, would die unexpectedly in the night in his mid-50s.  But then, it does happen.

If it was Bayaz, why would he do that?  Jezal was acting as he was expected to.  The rebellion against Orso would not have occurred if Jezal was still king, and that rebellion is definitely weakening Bayaz and V&B.  I just can't really make it add up. 

Likewise the other possible suspects (Sulfur acting independently, Khalul, the Burners), make even less sense than they did after ALH.

So it is looking like the big whodunnit of book 1 was just "natural causes".  Joe definitely isn't above that sort of misdirection or anti-reveal, but nonetheless, it's surprising. 

I was surprised by it, too. Like the Dogman's, Jezal's death may have been totally natural, and devoid of any curious circumstances. But there's room in the final book for a big reveal. And my crackpot theory still holds:

Spoiler

Jezal isn't dead, his death was faked by Bayaz, and he is doing a secret mission with Logen and Ferro. 

 

[Maithanet]

Just now, Corvinus85 said:

I was surprised by it, too. Like the Dogman's, Jezal's death may have been totally natural, and devoid of any curious circumstances. But there's room in the final book for a big reveal. And my crackpot theory still holds:

  Hide contents

Jezal isn't dead, his death was faked by Bayaz, and he is doing a secret mission with Logen and Ferro. 

 

That is certainly outlandish.  Also, are the spoiler tags just for drama?  Because speculation and spoiler do not mean the same thing . 

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

That is certainly outlandish.  Also, are the spoiler tags just for drama?  Because speculation and spoiler do not mean the same thing . 

Yes

[Relic]

31 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Yes

No way. But fun to think about. 

[polishgenius]

I think those suggesting earlier on that Bayaz is destabilising the Union are on to something. Him realising the revolution is coming and controlling both ends of it would be a very him thing to do, and Amercrombie writing a situation where he's the true Weaver and has thus taken control (well, destructive control) of the banks from himself is a very him thing to do. It also seems to be the only way to make him killing Jezal make sense, and him not killing Jezal given the way it was set up seems an anti-twist too far even for Joe.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I think those suggesting earlier on that Bayaz is destabilising the Union are on to something. Him realising the revolution is coming and controlling both ends of it would be a very him thing to do, and Amercrombie writing a situation where he's the true Weaver and has thus taken control (well, destructive control) of the banks from himself is a very him thing to do. It also seems to be the only way to make him killing Jezal make sense, and him not killing Jezal given the way it was set up seems an anti-twist too far even for Joe.

I dunno.  That would make for a very stagnant final trilogy if that is the big twist coming.  We already had the twist of "Bayaz is a callous puppetmaster" at the end of the first trilogy.  We don't need to read that again. 

In addition, I'm not at all sure why organizing a rebellion against yourself would be easier than just subverting and coopting the rebellion into your overall cause. 

[polishgenius]

1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

That would make for a very stagnant final trilogy if that is the big twist coming

 

I don't think that's the big twist. I think it'll be realised earlier than in the previous trilogy (as you say, we already no, so structuring that as the big reveal would make no real sense even if this instance is a surprise) and be the inciting incident for the anti-Bayaz alliance Wert mentioned to get together. 

[All Cats Are Bad]

15 hours ago, Rhom said:

Whoa...

To be fair I haven't actually read the Silmarillion, but it sounds cool and I like it as a concept.

[All Cats Are Bad]

8 hours ago, polishgenius said:

A broad comment on some of the comments here- I think some  of the nitpicks people have had with it rise from I feel perhaps unfairly expecting a realism from Abercrombie he's never really pretended to? Like the comments about the revolution coming together too fast, and things of that nature. For all his grit and his realistically complicated characters, Abercrombie has always leaned a bit theatrical, his stories having no fourth wall breaking or anything close but always a tiny bit of self-awareness in the story structure and telling itself that this is a fiction. Maybe I'm alone, but I feel like from that angle expecting detailed and realistic explanations for how logistics come together or why exactly those guys fell into this plan is a little unfair.

Yeah I was gonna say, remember how cartoonishly incompetent the nobles were in the first trilogy? He does it to make a point, not necessarily to be ""realistic.""

[Dez]

I agree that realism has never been the goal in JA books, but I do think the previous books did a better job of keeping things plausible enough to suspend disbelief. This book is the most ambitious of them all in terms of the scale of events and because of that, logical leaps and pacing issues stand out more. Not a huge deal for me, since I thought the way it all came together was very effective. 

As for Jezal’s death, I assumed Bayaz was behind it because the first trilogy conditioned me to think there are no coincidences around the guy. The end of ALH with Bayaz literally looming at the kings deathbed doesn’t scream random event to me, knowing what we do about him. It might not be surprising or original etc for Bayaz to be behind it all again, but I don’t think it’s meant to be. JA knows he can’t sneak anything by us regarding Bayaz. The question in a successor trilogy was always going to be why Bayaz was orchestrating the new series of events, not whether he was. 

[All Cats Are Bad]

Wasn't the opening quote of BTaH something like a king should forgive his enemies but never before they are hanged? Foreshadowing that maybe Orso made a mistake in sparing the Young Lion?

Broad being the Owl makes sense. The glasses being added after the prophecy means nothing. Maybe it was a Bull that ate the Lamb in the first draft? That being said I think maybe the Owl is Bayaz. But we'll see.

I feel like maybe we could see a redemption arc for Stour? I got kind of a vibe from him in the first book. Like maybe Abercrombie is doing a reverse Logen, where he introduces somebody so unquestionably odious that we're surprised when they turn sympathetic later? Idk, as I say, we'll see.

[Consigliere]

On 11/23/2020 at 8:45 PM, polishgenius said:

Maybe there's gonna be a 'born braindead and possessed by something' thread going on - but that'd be unlikely to come to fruition in the next book.

I doubt anything will come of it either. The worst outcome would be that the child is stillborn. If not then I expect the child will be perfectly healthy. Afterall, 30+ years of raging alcoholism has had no physical or mental effect on Ardee and her heavy drinking while pregnant had no effect on Savine.

 

On 11/23/2020 at 10:14 PM, Maithanet said:

I dunno.  That would make for a very stagnant final trilogy if that is the big twist coming.  We already had the twist of "Bayaz is a callous puppetmaster" at the end of the first trilogy.  We don't need to read that again. 

In addition, I'm not at all sure why organizing a rebellion against yourself would be easier than just subverting and coopting the rebellion into your overall cause. 

Agreed. I'd be disappointed if we end up in a situation where Bayaz was just playing everyone again.

 

I'm listening to TLAOK and at one point Logen mentions that losing an enemy is worse than losing a friend especially an enemy that one has had for a long time. So I'm hoping that the downfall of Khalul has had an impact on Bayaz resulting in Bayaz losing some of his edge and thus not being in control (or anticipating the magnitude) of the situation developing in Midderland - he's also been very preoccupied with Zacharus and Cawneil in both books.

[Maithanet]

28 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Agreed. I'd be disappointed if we end up in a situation where Bayaz was just playing everyone again.

I'm listening to TLAOK and at one point Logen mentions that losing an enemy is worse than losing a friend especially an enemy that one has had for a long time. So I'm hoping that the downfall of Khalul has had an impact on Bayaz resulting in Bayaz losing some of his edge and thus not being in control (or anticipating the magnitude) of the situation developing in Midderland - he's also been very preoccupied with Zacharus and Cawneil in both books.

Or some betrayal from Sulfur.  We really don't know much about him or what makes him so loyal, but it could be fitting if Bayaz were killed by his apprentice after he did the same to the Master Maker. 

[Darzin]

I just don't see Bayaz going after the banks. The banks are his source of power not just in Midderland but around the circle of the world. I could see Byayz supporting a revolution but if he was I would expect to see it's ire focused on the nobility and agents of Valint and Balk backing it. This revolution with one of it's key goals being, destroying his most powerful institution, is not something I see him backing.

[Consigliere]

I'm just finishing up listening to the first trilogy and I also find it very hard to believe that Bayaz could be backing this revolution. He would have had to have undergone a complete u-turn in his outlook. Bayaz had nothing but contempt for the common folk. He ridiculed Marovia's ideas of giving the people more power through elections as "pissing away power". He believes the common folk to be nothing more than children who need to be told what to do and wouldn't know what to do with power even if they had it. Bayaz never showed any hint of wanting to overthrow the system. Quite the opposite in fact since he exerts control over the crown, nobles and merchants with debts and secrets through Valint and Balk.

 

Re Jezal. While I agree that his death scene was set up in a way that screams of Bayaz being responsible, I can't figure out what benefit killing Jezal at that point would be to Bayaz. Jezal was a puppet king anyway who was doing whatever Bayaz wanted. I'm starting to think that Abercrombie is just clearing out the original characters in a low key manner and Jezal's death was natural with the sole purpose of elevating Orso into leadership. Jezal was hardly mentioned in the second book, Dogman died off page and while I'm still hoping that Glokta has more of a role to play, it wouldn't surprise me either if he doesn't appear again and we just hear that he died at his country estate.

[Veltigar]

I finally got around to reading this book. Waterstones delivered it way to late and then life got in the way. But now that I'm in holiday mode, I thought it would be great to polish this one off. Now what can I say about it? I really, really enjoyed reading it. Abercrombie is pretty much the only connection with my teen aged reading habits I have left and spending time in this world gives me such a powerful boost of nostalgia. 

That being said, it wasn't a very good book. If I were to reread this, I think I'd be pretty annoyed by a lot of stuff in there. As has been remarked up thread, this world doesn't really make sense. The way military operations, the economy or technological development are depicted in this world is very shallow. In the previous books, that was also the case, but I felt Joe was able to sell it better then. There are too many little things that don't fit together well in this new trilogy. I guess that's partly a result of his ambition. After all, money and debt (quite complicated matters we'd all agree) play a big role in all of this and now that we are bringing things like industrial policy, racism and labor movements into the mix it's becoming quite complex. 

That is however not my main gripe, as it is not Abercrombie's focus. What really troubled me in this book were the characters. Orso is a darling and I like spending time with him. I read someone musing up thread that Orso might be one of the best POVs Joe has ever done and I agree with that.

Vic is enjoyable enough, although I find it grating that her supposedly "clever ploys" are all things that seem like they could have been dreamed up by the Iranian foreign intelligence service (i.e. dumb as hell). Neither her actions in Westport, nor her intervention with Leo struck me as something that could be taken serious. Rikke I quite like, although again the plotting there is so basic that I'm a bit incredulous that Black Calder, Savine and all the others fall for it. 

Broad and Clover are quite the non-entities in my opinion. Neither are very original and they don't really add that much to the story. I'd also say that the final reveal felt very out of character for Clover. One of the things I liked about his skiving personality is that he was quite pragmatic and while he might have had the satisfaction of selling Stour out, you know Black Calder is a different hand altogether. With his action, Clover just landed himself on top of that guy's shitlist and that felt... odd. 

My main problem however, were Savine and Leo. Quite unfortunate, as it feel's that the lion's share (hah) of the chapters are dedicated to them. With Leo, I'll try to be short. He's just too dumb to live. His incompetence and gullibility is a sight to see. I feel like Joe overdid it really, it was almost a parody at a point. When he was sent to Sipani on his own, you knew it was going to be a huge fucking disaster. I also really don't see how he could have maintained so many close followers over the years, nor how he could have won the affection of Savine. Sure, he's hot and pretty but the man was just a walking target. How his entourage isn't filled with total grifters I cannot imagine.

The most troublesome was Savine however. I really enjoyed her PoV in ALH, but Joe did a 180°  on her. It started with the baby troubles... Like, why not do an abortion? It just feels false that she discovers her pregnancy and then immediately thinks she's screwed up big time. It just rang false to me that this ruthless bitch of a woman would all of a sudden turn out to be pro-life. The strange thing was it could also have been different. Instead of being steered into the marriage by everyone's favorite Eater, she should have capitalized on the advantage herself and put out feelers to Finree. 

And that was only the beginning. I didn't buy her blossoming respect for Leo. It feels like he in many ways is her antithesis and I don't get the sudden attraction to him. It would have been far more realistic in my opinion if she had sold Leo out when discovering the idiotic plot he was hatching with Isher. Think about that, she could have been the new Finree then and run the entire thing herself. She could have squeezed all the money out of Angland and the North and she could probably have done it without actually having to stay there (as soon as Leo got his head chopped off, she could have run the show from Adua). 

But no, she chooses to commit to a (to put it mildly) quixotic endeavor and then she starts making some... basic mistakes, like not checking the competency of the commanders involved? She must have known that Leo was never good for anything but figure head, so the fact that she allowed him to remove Jurand and Finree out of his entourage was buffoonery of the highest level. Same goes for not going with Leo to Styria. Same goes for arming the fucking Breakers. Think about what a stupid idea that is (as an aside, the armory in Angband was creepily good at churning out cannon and all kind of heavy equipment. Kind of strange the North is still an issue). Even if they had abided by the deal she struck, did she really believe they would have laid down their arms, just like that? Really stupid. 

Also her sudden... lust/determination to murder Orso and Glokta... really fucked up and it came out of fucking nowhere. She loved Orso and he's a fucking saint to be honest. He blows her off once, after she broke off all contact and then she has the gall of telling him she's his sister while she's jailed... like, why not, do that to begin with. Orso is a decent fellow, he would have respected her decision and if he didn't, well that would have made the events in the book more believable!

In fact, I'd say that the PoVs of Leo and Savine are so bad that the only flaw of Orso's chapters is that he didn't hang the lot of them. He's a suicidal saint really. He should have dispatched the child, Savine and Leo all on the same rope. At a push, he could have spared the kid, but Savine and Leo should have been killed. And that's even without taking Bayaz' displeasure into account. If you factor that in, then he should have tied the knots around their necks himself. 

That is by the way a general remark I would like to make. I have seen a few posters argue up thread that they hope Bayaz falls at the end of the third book and that it is revealed he's behind the Breakers. The former I'd strongly object too (it's not the focus of this story imo), but the latter I would not have any problems with. Yes, Joe has done it before, but Bayaz must have done this over and over throughout the history of the Union. I don't personally think he's behind it, but if he was, I wouldn't see it as a tired cliché. 

What I do think is a stale storytelling device at this point and should really stop, is the fact that none of the damn parents in this book have the balls to sit their kids down from an early age and tell them the truth. Black Calder, Finree, Jezal, Glokta.... the whole damn lot of them are a bunch of idiots. How many times has someone lost because they underestimated the importance of Bayaz? Orso should know by now that you only piss Bayaz off when you are damn sure of the gains you'll make. Not killing Leo simply isn't worth it. I get it if Orso had spared a pregnant Savine against Sulfur's objections, but Leo? Fuck no, he should have been glad to make the fucker dance.

As to some outstanding mysteries and smaller points I still wanted to make:

• It was a mistake bringing Caurib back. Unless this is picked up in the future, it is something Joe should have steered clear off. Bringing character literally back from the death just cheapens the world imo.
• I don't buy the theory that Select is Tolomei. At at stretch I could fall behind her being an agent of Styria (based on the red hair solely), but if anyone in these books is Tolomei than it has to be Judge. 
• Not bringing the Shanka back after mentioning them earlier is also getting tired. They are like the biggest checkov gun in this entire series. When is someone going to deal properly with them?
• Zuri is definitely an Eater. I do wonder why the bandages make her into the Eastwind? I might be missing a detail from a previous book there (I vaguely remember her talking with Black Dow? Is it that Eater). Her presence is still the greatest clue that Glokta is refusing to just let the Bayaz world order keep going. I do feel like it is unlikely that he's steering Pike. I would however not be surprised that he's been enabling Pike and covering up for him, pretending not to notice anything while simultaneously working with Khalul to lay a trap.
• As to Jezal's death, I don't think it would be a natural death. My favorite suspect remains Glokta. Perhaps Jezal had finally discovered the affair between his son and daughter and wanted to react against it? Or perhaps he was sacrificed by Glokta in the same way Pike killed his Breakers?
• Stour so far feels like a waste of time. I had expected that he would begin this book in a similar manner to how he started this book, namely having lost the ability to really fight in the circle and that he would morph into a far more formidable foe by using his brain. That didn't happen.
• Jappo was pretty clear. Missed the Friendly cameo but overall really liked the chapter. Also nice to see that Shivers has a son. I'm not as enamored by BSC as the majority of people here, but that was one of the few parts I enjoyed about that book.
• Do we know what happened to Hildi? After her PoV I feel like she disappeared?
• Corporal Tunny is such a boss. I wanted more of him and Gorst in this book. 
• Sulfur's anime killing spree was great
• RIP Dogman, you were a good guy till the end.
• I still miss Logen to be honest. Would love some Bloody Nine energy in this trilogy. I guess that is one of the reasons why I'd like magic to return to the world, as that would be a way to keep the character around for much longer (perhaps that was the point of introducing Caurib, perhaps we'll find a Shankafied version of Logen on our path in the future)

 

[BigFatCoward]

Much as I like Shivers, Rikke needs to be careful. He turned on Bethod, turned on Monza (tried to kill her), turned on Dow (chopped him pretty much in half) and must have turned on Calder at some point to be serving Dogman now. Not a particularly 'straight edge'. 

[karaddin]

I feel like she's the one person he will be loyal to, as he slid into something of a father role even with her having her actual father, but that could just be Joe suckering me again. "Why yes, I know the games he likes to play, surely this time I won't fall for it!" *immediately falls for it*.

That dynamic is a large part of why Clover killing Wonderful got me, although it was also partially that he'd given such strong Curnden Craw vibes despite being a very different man.

[SeanF]

I don’t have an issue with Leo’s and Savine’s plot being hare-brained.  Many plots in real life have been carried out for bad reasons, and poorly executed.

I enjoyed Rikke’s takeover of the Northern capital.  It was a simple coup d’Etat, but the best coups are simple.  All the pieces need to have been played in advance, so that the actual takeover is almost bloodless.

[Relic]

19 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Much as I like Shivers, Rikke needs to be careful. He turned on Bethod, turned on Monza (tried to kill her), turned on Dow (chopped him pretty much in half) and must have turned on Calder at some point to be serving Dogman now. Not a particularly 'straight edge'. 

That's a good point. Shivers seems like a new man, but we've seen him act that way before, haven't we?