Jump to content

The Trouble With Peace by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]


Corvinus85

Recommended Posts

On 11/29/2020 at 2:20 PM, Veltigar said:

The most troublesome was Savine however. I really enjoyed her PoV in ALH, but Joe did a 180°  on her. It started with the baby troubles... Like, why not do an abortion? It just feels false that she discovers her pregnancy and then immediately thinks she's screwed up big time. It just rang false to me that this ruthless bitch of a woman would all of a sudden turn out to be pro-life. The strange thing was it could also have been different. Instead of being steered into the marriage by everyone's favorite Eater, she should have capitalized on the advantage herself and put out feelers to Finree. 

And that was only the beginning. I didn't buy her blossoming respect for Leo. It feels like he in many ways is her antithesis and I don't get the sudden attraction to him. It would have been far more realistic in my opinion if she had sold Leo out when discovering the idiotic plot he was hatching with Isher. Think about that, she could have been the new Finree then and run the entire thing herself. She could have squeezed all the money out of Angland and the North and she could probably have done it without actually having to stay there (as soon as Leo got his head chopped off, she could have run the show from Adua). 

But no, she chooses to commit to a (to put it mildly) quixotic endeavor and then she starts making some... basic mistakes, like not checking the competency of the commanders involved? She must have known that Leo was never good for anything but figure head, so the fact that she allowed him to remove Jurand and Finree out of his entourage was buffoonery of the highest level. Same goes for not going with Leo to Styria. Same goes for arming the fucking Breakers. Think about what a stupid idea that is (as an aside, the armory in Angband was creepily good at churning out cannon and all kind of heavy equipment. Kind of strange the North is still an issue). Even if they had abided by the deal she struck, did she really believe they would have laid down their arms, just like that? Really stupid.

First of all, I share a lot of your concerns/complaints about the book, although in many cases not as strongly as you do. 

That said, I think this book made pretty clear that Savine wasn't nearly as smart/competent as she thinks she is.  She is basically Ivanka Trump.  She doesn't see that almost everything has been handed to her, and that she has two of the most powerful men in the Union (Jezal and Glokta) looking out for her and her investments.  Once Jezal dies and her father takes a backseat, her business acumen suddenly vanishes, her planning skills are lackluster and her ambition convinces her to attach to a bunch of dubious allies in a "get power quick" scheme. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Much as I like Shivers, Rikke needs to be careful. He turned on Bethod, turned on Monza (tried to kill her), turned on Dow (chopped him pretty much in half) and must have turned on Calder at some point to be serving Dogman now. Not a particularly 'straight edge'. 

 

4 hours ago, Relic said:

That's a good point. Shivers seems like a new man, but we've seen him act that way before, haven't we?

Shivers is a man who's been looking for a good role model. I believe he changed for the better when he let go of his hatred for Logen. That is why he decided to follow the Dogman. Rikke only needs to be wary of Shivers if she starts becoming more like the Bethod/Dow types. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

Shivers is a man who's been looking for a good role model. I believe he changed for the better when he let go of his hatred for Logen. That is why he decided to follow the Dogman. Rikke only needs to be wary of Shivers if she starts becoming more like the Bethod/Dow types. 

I tend to think that’s where Joe is going in the third book. Rikke seems to me to have a dark streak coming out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

First of all, I share a lot of your concerns/complaints about the book, although in many cases not as strongly as you do. 

That said, I think this book made pretty clear that Savine wasn't nearly as smart/competent as she thinks she is.  She is basically Ivanka Trump.  She doesn't see that almost everything has been handed to her, and that she has two of the most powerful men in the Union (Jezal and Glokta) looking out for her and her investments.  Once Jezal dies and her father takes a backseat, her business acumen suddenly vanishes, her planning skills are lackluster and her ambition convinces her to attach to a bunch of dubious allies in a "get power quick" scheme. 

Hmmm, yes to the bolded, but not to the italic text. I still feel that we're supposed to take Savine's skills somewhat at face value. Remember her arrival in Angland? Not only does she wrap all the difficult nobles Finree had to cultivate for years around her finger, she also went through the books and multiplied the revenues of the province with a factor 10 and then by the end she's basically steering the committee on her own.

That hardly feels like something an Ivanka type character should be able to do. I'd also argue she's better at planning than you give her credit for. It might not make sense, but she did get the weapons produced and shipped to the Breakers in time. 

You could argue that she used to be great and then was shellshocked into making poor decisions. I think that's the way Joe wants us to look at it, but for me, the gap is too wide. On the one hand she's superbly clever when it comes to actual intellectually challenging things (logistics, tax policy, budgeting, etc.), but then she fails to do even a basic competency check on the commanders. It's too much for me :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

Hmmm, yes to the bolded, but not to the italic text. I still feel that we're supposed to take Savine's skills somewhat at face value. Remember her arrival in Angland? Not only does she wrap all the difficult nobles Finree had to cultivate for years around her finger, she also went through the books and multiplied the revenues of the province with a factor 10 and then by the end she's basically steering the committee on her own.

That hardly feels like something an Ivanka type character should be able to do. I'd also argue she's better at planning than you give her credit for. It might not make sense, but she did get the weapons produced and shipped to the Breakers in time. 

You could argue that she used to be great and then was shellshocked into making poor decisions. I think that's the way Joe wants us to look at it, but for me, the gap is too wide. On the one hand she's superbly clever when it comes to actual intellectually challenging things (logistics, tax policy, budgeting, etc.), but then she fails to do even a basic competency check on the commanders. It's too much for me :) 

I think that Ivanka might not be quite as incompetent as people give her credit for personally, I think that the idea that she could charm some local officials and organize their books is within her abilities (or the 2020 equivalent, it isn't an exact comparison).  Savine is capable, but unexceptional.  She does not see that the reason that she appears exceptional is because of the aura her wealth and status afford her. 

As for the planning, did it really go that well?  It appears to be a mixed bag to me.  Her decision to send Leo alone (aside from his drinking buddies, who are no help) to the meeting in Styria is bafflingly stupid.  It was so stupid that I actually wondered if either Savine had already arranged things and Leo was just there to accept the credit.  But no, they actually needed Leo to get something done and of course he failed as anyone could see he would. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Once Jezal dies and her father takes a backseat, her business acumen suddenly vanishes, her planning skills are lackluster and her ambition convinces her to attach to a bunch of dubious allies in a "get power quick" scheme. 

Think Zuri is also a huge part of her success. I don’t remember her counseling Savine against rebellion :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Hmmm, yes to the bolded, but not to the italic text. I still feel that we're supposed to take Savine's skills somewhat at face value. Remember her arrival in Angland? Not only does she wrap all the difficult nobles Finree had to cultivate for years around her finger, she also went through the books and multiplied the revenues of the province with a factor 10 and then by the end she's basically steering the committee on her own.

That hardly feels like something an Ivanka type character should be able to do. I'd also argue she's better at planning than you give her credit for. It might not make sense, but she did get the weapons produced and shipped to the Breakers in time. 

You could argue that she used to be great and then was shellshocked into making poor decisions. I think that's the way Joe wants us to look at it, but for me, the gap is too wide. On the one hand she's superbly clever when it comes to actual intellectually challenging things (logistics, tax policy, budgeting, etc.), but then she fails to do even a basic competency check on the commanders. It's too much for me :) 

That’s not strange.  Intellectually able people can be strangely lacking in common sense.

I’ll offer myself as an example.  Over the past few months I’ve been working on a Master’s degree in military history.  I just wrote my dissertation preparation essay, which got huge praise from the examiner.

I also lost £3,000 in a scam that a half-witted child would have seen through, because I lacked basic common sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say that Savine is competent enough when it comes to business but not exceptional. Her father being the Arch Lector allowed her to strong-arm competitors and partners without fear of repercussions. Glokta warned her before she left for Angland that politics is a very different beast and Savine was clearly out of her depth on that front.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SaltyGnosis said:

Anybody else feel like Wonderful is kind of a lame character?

She was always just sort of there for me.  :dunno:  I didn't know there was supposed to be much more to her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wonderful certainly is a supporting character.  I don't really know what the problem would be with her.  Not one of Joe's best, but it's virtually impossible to have all your supporting characters be memorable.  I feel like if we're picking out characters that didn't really resonate, I'd look to the forgettable POV characters like Beck and Temple. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Wonderful certainly is a supporting character.  I don't really know what the problem would be with her.  Not one of Joe's best, but it's virtually impossible to have all your supporting characters be memorable.  I feel like if we're picking out characters that didn't really resonate, I'd look to the forgettable POV characters like Beck and Temple. 

I didnt mind Red Beck, I thought his viewpoint was useful. And his arc was nice. Though obviously an absolute prick  

Temple was just a foil for Shy. 

BSC had the best characters by far. The apprentice was pretty forgetable, but the rest were stellar. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

I agree BSC had the best cast of characters. 

I liked Wonderful but I really loved her death scene. Clovers complete lack of any hesitation was something.  

Yeah, that's the part that got me with it - not that I loved Wonderful but just how easily he went along with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess what bugs me is as a concept I feel like she's really cool, so I always want to like her. But then all she ever does is spout your basic Malazan/Space Marine dialogue. Idk, maybe I'm being nit picky.

Although I will say it's interesting that they have less of a problem with a woman fighter in the North than they'd seem to in the Union, despite it not being particularly common. I wonder if we're going to find out Aliz dan Brint was actually happier in the North, like that woman who was taken captive by the Comanche and wound up running back there after she was "rescued" decades later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I didnt mind Red Beck, I thought his viewpoint was useful. And his arc was nice. Though obviously an absolute prick  

Temple was just a foil for Shy. 

BSC had the best characters by far. The apprentice was pretty forgetable, but the rest were stellar. 

Morveer, the ethical poisoner, Cosca, and Friendly made me die.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Something that jumped out to me like it was important (but not entirely clear to me why) was that Sulfur seemed pretty surprised and alarmed when Orso spares Leo like Bayaz would most certainly strongly disapprove.  

Why does Bayaz need Leo dead rather than imprisoned?  Feels like it portends something significant about Leo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Walter the Singing Wildcat said:

Something that jumped out to me like it was important (but not entirely clear to me why) was that Sulfur seemed pretty surprised and alarmed when Orso spares Leo like Bayaz would most certainly strongly disapprove.  

Why does Bayaz need Leo dead rather than imprisoned?  Feels like it portends something significant about Leo.

It's much more likely that Bayaz would demand that traitors be punished to the fullest extent rather than him needing Leo dead for some other reason. Sulfur was surprised because he was used to king and closed council rolling over for Bayaz and doing whatever he wanted for the past 30 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...