Why was Penrose so distrustful of Stannis?

[James Steller]

To be honest, I have never really understood this plot point very much. Cortnay Penrose really has it in for Stannis and he’s completely convinced that Edric Storm’s life is at risk. To that end, he’s willing to bend the knee to anyone who breaks Stannis’ siege of Storm’s End. 

But honestly, I don’t understand why Penrose would hate and distrust Stannis so much. True, Penrose was a friend of Renly, but Renly was no less of a rebel than Stannis was. And I won’t hold it against Penrose that he didn’t know Stannis was the rightful heir to Robert, he wasn’t there to learn what we readers know. That said, he shouldn’t have any reason to think Stannis will kill his own kin in cold blood. Just a reminder, this is the same Stannis who betrayed his king and joined a rebellion out of loyalty to a brother who openly bullied and disliked him.

Plus, Stannis clearly didn’t murder Renly; he has many witnesses who would happily swear that Stannis was in his own tent when Renly died. Brienne is the prime suspect at that point and she’s not one of Stannis’s troops.

Moreover, what reason does Penrose have to fear for Edric’s life? Stannis isn’t the one who’s actively slaughtering Robert’s illegitimate kids. But apparently, Penrose would happily swear allegiance to the child killing queen regent if her army is the one that saves him from Stannis. I get that Stannis is not supposed to be popular, and I know that there’s rumours about Melisandre, but that doesn’t feel like enough of an explanation to me. Stannis has no history of killing kids (unlike, again, the Lannisters to whom Penrose appeals for help). 

And (sigh) yes I know that Stannis does order Edric to be sacrificed, but Penrose could not possibly predict that, surely? Nobody in the seven kingdoms seems to be knowledgeable of Rhlorr or the religion tied around him, I highly doubt Penrose is sitting on that kind of intel because he would be crowing it from every rooftop if he did know.

Either I’m missing something or GRRM really wanted to drain Stannis’s life force with a second shadow-baby. 

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

And (sigh) yes I know that Stannis does order Edric to be sacrificed, but Penrose could not possibly predict that, surely? Nobody in the seven kingdoms seems to be knowledgeable of Rhlorr or the religion tied around him, I highly doubt Penrose is sitting on that kind of intel because he would be crowing it from every rooftop if he did know.

The 7 Kingdoms is well aware of Rhlorrism, just not terribly interested - it hasn't been that interesting until lately. Thoros of Myr has been around Robert's court for years, maybe a decade or more (he stormed the breach at Pike IIRC).

I rather suspect Penrose has had more contact with Melisandre than most of Westeros and knows more of how she has her claws in Stannis than most are aware.
In which case, he may well be able to predict, if not be certain, some things that may come to pass.

[Davjos]

I think you give your reason in the OP: rumours of Mel, a general dislike of Stannis and a bit of blame for his death combine in the refusal to yield Edric. It is possible the tendency for followers of Rhollor to perform sacrifice was widely know, but the text is silent in that regard I think. 
 

The notion he was more aware of Mel is interesting, but IIRC she came to Stannis on Dragonstone and we have no indication she was in Westeros before. 
 

I think the ‘weak’ rationale suffices mostly because GRRM wanted to show Mel and the Shadowbaby. 

[James Steller]

3 minutes ago, corbon said:

The 7 Kingdoms is well aware of Rhlorrism, just not terribly interested - it hasn't been that interesting until lately. Thoros of Myr has been around Robert's court for years, maybe a decade or more (he stormed the breach at Pike IIRC).

I rather suspect Penrose has had more contact with Melisandre than most of Westeros and knows more of how she has her claws in Stannis than most are aware.
In which case, he may well be able to predict, if not be certain, some things that may come to pass.

When would he have contacted Melisandre? He was the castellan of Storm’s End ever since Robert gave it to Renly. He would have no reason to know Melisandre, even if Stannis HAD brought her to court (and we know he never did). In fact, Storm’s End would surely have long memories of a 19-year old Stannis holding firm against Mace Tyrell for a whole year without breaking down. Cortnay might even have been there during the siege! Although probably not because I refuse to believe that he’d think so low of Stannis after enduring that siege alongside him. Since he was apparently a close friend of Robert before Renly, I’d imagine Penrose was fighting at Robert’s side. All the same, you’d think one of the men who’s been serving there for a while would remember Stannis for who he was, even if Penrose didn’t. 

[James Steller]

1 minute ago, Davjos said:

I think the ‘weak’ rationale suffices mostly because GRRM wanted to show Mel and the Shadowbaby. 

I agree a hundred percent about us seeing Mel give birth to the shadowbaby as the only reason why that happens. I just think the in-universe justifications are flimsy. The smallfolk and guards of Storm’s End should have remembered Stannis and betrayed Penrose, that would have worked, and we could have seen the first shadowbaby born instead.

[corbon]

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

When would he have contacted Melisandre? He was the castellan of Storm’s End ever since Robert gave it to Renly. He would have no reason to know Melisandre, even if Stannis HAD brought her to court (and we know he never did).

Storms End is not 'court'. I don't know, but I would not be surprised if Stannis had visited it, with Melisandre.

Or maybe just enough rumours and stories reached them.
Its also possible Penrose is simply devout. Stannis' burning of the 7 was a pretty radical step that is a bit underplayed I think. It tells men like Penrose that he is now the equivalent of a raging fanatic capable of doing anything without them knowing any more. It plays directly to all the fear-bound stereotypes of 'red witches' and 'foreign sorceresses'.

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

In fact, Storm’s End would surely have long memories of a 19-year old Stannis holding firm against Mace Tyrell for a whole year without breaking down. Cortnay might even have been there during the siege! Although probably not because I refuse to believe that he’d think so low of Stannis after enduring that siege alongside him. Since he was apparently a close friend of Robert before Renly, I’d imagine Penrose was fighting at Robert’s side. All the same, you’d think one of the men who’s been serving there for a while would remember Stannis for who he was, even if Penrose didn’t. 

Remembering Stannis for who he was is not likely to help. Especially not if Penrose was friends with Ser Gawen Wylde.

 

[Bernie Mac]

Stannis has killed his brother, he is going to kill Robert's 'sons'. Penrose likely thinks Stannis is cleaning House, ridding himself of others who can lay claim to the throne.

That seems to be the most obvious reason.

[James Steller]

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis has killed his brother, he is going to kill Robert's 'sons'. Penrose likely thinks Stannis is cleaning House, ridding himself of others who can lay claim to the throne.

That seems to be the most obvious reason.

Except that he didn’t kill Renly, in the eyes of anyone who wasn’t in the actual tent. Nobody saw Stannis do it, and the two women who did see the murder are the top suspects in Renly’s murder according to his lover, who happens to be the apple of Mace Tyrell’s eye.

 

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

Storms End is not 'court'. I don't know, but I would not be surprised if Stannis had visited it, with Melisandre.

 

When I said ‘Court’, I meant King’s Landing. Stannis was there as Master of Ships, as was Renly as Master of Laws (eventually). Even if Mel had been brought to King’s Landing, Penrose would never have seen her because he was back at Storm’s End.

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

Remembering Stannis for who he was is not likely to help. Especially not if Penrose was friends with Ser Gawen Wylde.

 

I would have loved that angle! Imagine if Penrose had thrown that back in Stannis’ face! That would have been a great addition to his grievances with Stannis. A man who, like Davos, knows Stannis from his finest hour, but resents him instead of loves him. Imagine the Shakespearean inner monologue that Davos could have had during that chapter...

[Trigger Warning]

8 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Except that he didn’t kill Renly, in the eyes of anyone who wasn’t in the actual tent. Nobody saw Stannis do it, and the two women who did see the murder are the top suspects in Renly’s murder according to his lover, who happens to be the apple of Mace Tyrell’s eye.

 

 

“That one?” Ser Guyard Morrigen laughed harshly. “She ran. As well she might. Hers was the hand that slew the king.” “A lie,” Ser Cortnay said

“Enough!” Stannis said. “The Lord of Light willed that my brother die for his treason. Who did the deed matters not.”  “Not to you, perhaps,” said Ser Cortnay

 

Stannis was Renly's enemy and they were preparing for battle, Renly was conveniently murdered and now Stannis is specifically demanding that he have Edric Storm. The rumours don't matter much to Penrose, he feels that Stannis is a threat to the boy. 

[Ser Leftwich]

1) Penrose could reasonably think that Stannis and/or the men with had something to do with Renly's death. From what he says, Penrose clearly had plenty of information about what happened after the breakup of Renly's forces. A great number of the people listed at the parley were with Renly and now Stannis. Renly clearly had his allegiance. Davos assessment is that Penrose doesn't like people who don't keep faith.

2) Able to show off shadowbaby.

3) General dislike of Stannis.

 

 

[frenin]

Stannis had killed Renly, Penrose clearly suspected that and he clearly distrusted Stannis's intentions with Edric as he was willing to surrender as long as Edric was out of his uncle's reach. There is no hidden reason than that.

 

38 minutes ago, James Steller said:

But honestly, I don’t understand why Penrose would hate and distrust Stannis so much. True, Penrose was a friend of Renly, but Renly was no less of a rebel than Stannis was. And I won’t hold it against Penrose that he didn’t know Stannis was the rightful heir to Robert, he wasn’t there to learn what we readers know. That said, he shouldn’t have any reason to think Stannis will kill his own kin in cold blood. Just a reminder, this is the same Stannis who betrayed his king and joined a rebellion out of loyalty to a brother who openly bullied and disliked him.

Loyalties change with time and Stannis doesn't seem the type to hide his resentment and he clearly was resentful with both his brothers. And Stannis is the one besieging Storm's End and threatened Renly with utter destruction. It only takes one letter from Renly's camp for Penrose to act like he did, if it wasn't clear enough for him. 

This is the same loyal Stannis that abandons his elder brother for his crown, kills his younger for his army and would soon enough try to kill his nephew for a new shot of getting the Throne.

Penrose's distrust is more than justified, I find it baffling how any reader would think otherwise having Stannis's track record.

 

47 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Plus, Stannis clearly didn’t murder Renly; he has many witnesses who would happily swear that Stannis was in his own tent when Renly died. Brienne is the prime suspect at that point and she’s not one of Stannis’s troops.

- Stannis did murder Renly.

- Stannis being on his tent  doesn't matter, he can order the murder, which he kind of did.

- Stannis witnesses are a moot point, he is their liege, they'll easily lie to absolve him.

- Penrose is convinced that Brienne did not kill Renly.

 

Quote

[...] Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?” “That one?” Ser Guyard Morrigen laughed harshly. “She ran. As well she might. Hers was the hand that slew the king.” “A lie,” Ser Cortnay said. “I knew Brienne when she was no more than a girl playing at her father’s feet in Evenfall Hall, and I knew her still better when the Evenstar sent her here to Storm’s End. She loved Renly Baratheon from the first moment she laid eyes on him, a blind man could see it.”

 

 

55 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Moreover, what reason does Penrose have to fear for Edric’s life? Stannis isn’t the one who’s actively slaughtering Robert’s illegitimate kids. But apparently, Penrose would happily swear allegiance to the child killing queen regent if her army is the one that saves him from Stannis. I get that Stannis is not supposed to be popular, and I know that there’s rumours about Melisandre, but that doesn’t feel like enough of an explanation to me. Stannis has no history of killing kids (unlike, again, the Lannisters to whom Penrose appeals for help). 

- Penrose doesn't know that Cersei is killing Robert's bastards.

- Penrose suspects Stannis a kinslayer, delivering to him his nephew, that he is so adamant at getting doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

57 minutes ago, James Steller said:

And (sigh) yes I know that Stannis does order Edric to be sacrificed, but Penrose could not possibly predict that, surely? Nobody in the seven kingdoms seems to be knowledgeable of Rhlorr or the religion tied around him, I highly doubt Penrose is sitting on that kind of intel because he would be crowing it from every rooftop if he did know.

Yet he did, he knew that Stannis could not possibly want the kid for any good reason. Not only because he wanted to kill him, but parading him through the Realm to prove Cersei's kids are bastards is a very good way of getting him killed.

 

All in all, there is nothing unreasonable with Penrose.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

When I said ‘Court’, I meant King’s Landing. Stannis was there as Master of Ships, as was Renly as Master of Laws (eventually). Even if Mel had been brought to King’s Landing, Penrose would never have seen her because he was back at Storm’s End.

Yeah, understood. I wasn;t clear enough due to shortcutting.

I would not be surprised if Penrose had met Mel at Storms End.
But I don't think thats necessary anyway.

I think others have shown that even aside from the burning of the Seven, Penrose has plenty of reason to be distrustful of Stannis. I think you've mostly misremembered the situation. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Except that he didn’t kill Renly, in the eyes of anyone who wasn’t in the actual tent. Nobody saw Stannis do it, and the two women who did see the murder are the top suspects in Renly’s murder according to his lover, who happens to be the apple of Mace Tyrell’s eye.

Yeah, I don't think Penrose buys into the idea that Brienne murdered Renly

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

Brienne had been living at Storm's End for some time before the series began, he clearly does not believe those rumours. In fact Penrose actually thinks Stannis is a bigger threat to Edric's life than Joffrey.

"Nothing from Bitterbridge. From Storm's End, three birds from the castellan, Ser Cortnay Penrose, all carrying the same plea. Stannis has him surrounded by land and sea. He offers his allegiance to whatsoever king will break the siege. He fears for the boy, he says. What boy would that be, do you know?"

 

 

 

 

[James Steller]

Okay, I concede my argument. You’ve all made excellent points, so fair’s fair.

[Loose Bolt]

I suspect that during middle ages most people would not have trusted a power hungry demon worshipper who had burned churches, defiled other holy places and had a witch as a lover.

[Arthur Peres]

7 hours ago, James Steller said:

I agree a hundred percent about us seeing Mel give birth to the shadowbaby as the only reason why that happens. I just think the in-universe justifications are flimsy. The smallfolk and guards of Storm’s End should have remembered Stannis and betrayed Penrose, that would have worked, and we could have seen the first shadowbaby born instead.

They probably do, and that is probably the reason why Penrose was trying to resolve the siege with a trial by combat, that he does not seem to have much of a winning chance. 

Penrose knows he does not have total control of the garrison, and once he is dead the garrison surrender to Stannis without further resistance.

[Trigger Warning]

6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

They probably do, and that is probably the reason why Penrose was trying to resolve the siege with a trial by combat, that he does not seem to have much of a winning chance. 

Penrose knows he does not have total control of the garrison, and once he is dead the garrison surrender to Stannis without further resistance.

 

Alternatively he may have known that a man like Stannis would never allow a duel to decide the fate of the castle when he has such a superiority in numbers and simply took the opportunity to slap a glove in his face to humiliate him. 

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, corbon said:

The 7 Kingdoms is well aware of Rhlorrism, just not terribly interested - it hasn't been that interesting until lately. Thoros of Myr has been around Robert's court for years, maybe a decade or more (he stormed the breach at Pike IIRC).

I rather suspect Penrose has had more contact with Melisandre than most of Westeros and knows more of how she has her claws in Stannis than most are aware.
In which case, he may well be able to predict, if not be certain, some things that may come to pass.

Mel had her claws nowhere prior to Robert's death. Stannis only decides to listen to Melisandre when Selyse makes him her offer that Mel can do away with Renly and secure Renly's men for Stannis ... which happens right in the Prologue of ACoK.

Prior to that, the red woman was just Lady Selyse's pet, and Lord Stannis lived and worked at court, visiting his wife and daughter only very infrequently, and not suffering them or their pets with him in the Red Keep.

Hence, Penrose would have no opportunity about hearing about stuff that never happened ... not to mention that he would have no way about hearing about the developments on Dragonstone after Stannis left court and closed down the island.

Instead, the idea would be that Penrose just knew what piece of work Stannis actually was ... suspecting him to have murdered Renly made it not that hard for him to assume he might also murder Robert's son. He would also expect him to do away with Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.

But Penrose would have no reason to expect that Stannis wanted Edric Storm for a blood sacrifice.

[Seams]

If you read the subtext, Edric Storm is an important symbol, directly compared to Jon Snow:

Quote

If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."

(ACoK, Catelyn VI)

We know that Roose will take a different line of logic in Dance, after Ramsay has killed Domeric:

Quote

"Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison. In the Vale, Domeric had enjoyed the company of Redfort's sons. He wanted a brother by his side, so he rode up the Weeping Water to seek my bastard out. I forbade it, but Domeric was a man grown and thought that he knew better than his father. Now his bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?"

The question frightened him. Once he had heard Skinner say that the Bastard had killed his trueborn brother, but he had never dared to believe it. He could be wrong. Brothers die sometimes, it does not mean that they were killed. My brothers died, and I never killed them. "My lord has a new wife to give him sons."

"And won't my bastard love that? Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing. If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though."

(ADwD, Reek III)

So we're getting some weird lessons about kinslaying by a brother - lessons that probably apply to Stannis killing Renly as well as Ramsay killing Domeric and any future sons of Fat Walda.

But Catelyn's observations about Roose's relationship with Ramsay are also super-important in light of her feelings about Jon Snow. She is comparing Ser Cortnay Penrose to Ned, which may be the only time she compares Ned to anyone in ASOIAF. She is puzzled by the behavior of these father figures, but we know that Catelyn loves and respects Ned, so she seems to echo the impression Davos gave us that Penrose is a loyal and honorable man.

If Penrose = Ned, then Edric Storm = Jon Snow on some level. Penrose is trying to save a king (or king's son) from a range of forces that would bring him down.

More subtext:

House Penrose may all descend from Princess Elaena Targaryen (along with members of the Waters and Longwaters lines - both from a Velaryon father - and House Plumm). (And I have indicated in past threads, I believe Littlefinger is also a descendant of Elaena.) From a puns and wordplay symbolism perspective, when Elaena cut off her distinctive hair and gave it to King Baelor, she was giving him her "heirs" - pledging her heirs to King Baelor, imho. We would need to put in a lot of effort to understand Baelor's symbolism and why his dynastic agenda might differ from that of other Targaryen kings, but his crown was flowers and vines. There is some kind of flora symbolism going on, with implications for fertility symbolism.

Because of his Baratheon and Florent bloodlines, Edric Storm represents a unique combination of Storm Lord and Garth Greenhands, the legendary flora and fertility figure of Westeros. Renly was also a Garth Greenhands figure (something to do with his Estermont heritage, I suspect) and a symbolic father figure for Edric after Robert sent Edric to be raised at Storm's End. I believe Penrose feels a special obligation to keep Edric safe from the clutches of Melisandre, the red woman. Red and green simply don't get along. 

I'm still trying to puzzle out the green/brown fertility symbolism that emerges from several characters and storylines in ASOIAF and the Dunk & Egg stories. I suspect that Penrose is a brown character, associated with dirt. Small clues:

1) His beard is spade-shaped. Gravedigger symbolism.

2) His house sigil is on a russet field. Russet is a shade of brown but is also a type of potato. Penrose may have a special "root vegetable" bond with Davos. 

3) Penrose remains loyal to Renly even after death. We know that Ser Loras buried Renly near the roots of an old tree at Storm's End. More gravedigger, roots and dirt symbolism. 

One of the emerging patterns with these brown/dirt characters is that old ones seem to necessarily pass away and new ones take their place. (Nimble Dick Crabb and Hyle Hunt seem to be an old/new pairing of brown characters.) When Cortnay Penrose dies, he is replaced by a Fossoway cousin. The Fossoway sigil is an apple and is closely associated with kingmakers. There are a number of turning points when characters eat apples, save their seeds or step on them. Ser Garlan Tyrell is married to a Fossoway who is pregnant. Florents and Tyrells are competing to be the true heirs of Garth Greenhands. Tree planting and the apple replacing the dirt may be part of the larger Florent/Greenhands fertility symbolism I mentioned earlier. 

[Arthur Peres]

4 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Alternatively he may have known that a man like Stannis would never allow a duel to decide the fate of the castle when he has such a superiority in numbers and simply took the opportunity to slap a glove in his face to humiliate him. 

Penrose does not strike me that petty, and he was willing to surrender if Edric was allowed to leave with him. I think he knew the garrison wasn't loyal to him, thats why he push desperate measures such as trial by combat or swering allegiance to anyone that relieved the siege.