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Allardyce

The Dark Fate of the Starks

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15 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

There is still hope for that littlest one.

A stubborn, angry, mourning in grief, little boy with a wild, nearly rabid direwolf from which the boy imbibes wild qualities has little hope, I would think. I think Rickon has the least optimistic outcome. Living with wildling cannibals in Skaagos for so long (of his childhood life) ain't gonna improve his temperament.

http://www.asoiaf-theories.com/rickon-stark-theory-skagos/

Spoiler

As noted above, the short theory posits that if Rickon is ever to rise to a prominent leadership position, he would be a “terrible and possibly cruel ruler.”

Spoiler

So anyway, I'll give you another stark who is more liable to be a psycho now. 

You guessed right. It's Rickon. He was already half mad with his aptly named wild Direwolf Shaggydog due to sorrow, grief, stubbornness, refusal to accept loss mean, among a hundred other reasons. His actions in AGoT and ACOK are proof enough. Especially the crypt and God's wood incidents.

Now he is unlikely to have become more friendly with Osha and the Wildlings for so long a time. The Wildlings are also not normal ones, cannibal Skagosi. There u go, you have a potential stark psycho. Hate him,

 

22 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

I wouldn't mind Arya, Jon, and Sansa dying soon. 

What a surprise!

22 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

That should free up more space in the last book if it happened soon enough. 

A dream of Spring was originally titled "A TIME FOR WOLVES" You stark haters (no offence, only this time) can't have all of 'em dead.

 

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On 9/17/2020 at 9:12 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Sansa probably will be alive in human form at the end of the story.  She won’t be a lady or any such thing.  Just another survivor hunting and scavenging to stay alive.  Scavenging in her case.  I disagree with your predictions for Jon.  I think he bites the dust and either just die permanently or live a second life within ghost.  Bran will be alive in the trees and his wolf.  We have already read how this will be possible.  Summer can live off the wights. Bran will be nourished and absorbed by the trees.  

I cant foresee Sansa being a nomad/scavenger. The wench would die within a week. She needs marry a northern lord.

I think Jon will make it, Dany will die.

Bran, I can see happening but think Summer wont make it. 

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Why do people think Jon took a dark turn by executing Slynt? The man was plotting against him with Cersei and was actively undermining his leadership. He had to be dealt with in my opinion. The man would have executed him if he became lord commander. Sometimes you can only achieve you're goals with force in the brutal world of asoiaf.

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14 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

I knew from his first chapter that Jon would be trouble.  It's that chip on his shoulder and his temperament. 

Ned was alright though.  Rickon's chapter has not even begun.  There is still hope for that littlest one.  I wouldn't mind Arya, Jon, and Sansa dying soon.  That should free up more space in the last book if it happened soon enough. 

Jon is already dead and should remain dead to emphasize that death is for keeps.  That would be my wish.  I would not miss him.  Bran is sort of interesting for a Stark.  He has a lot of the magic fantasy in his chapters.  George Martin is not going to kill Bran.  He lives among the roots until spring comes again.  Arya is pretty certain to die.  She will slip up and get herself killed.  Arya dies taking down Ramsay or some other enemy of her family. 

These three are the closest of the Starks.  Their spirits will live in the memory of the trees before the end of the story.  Bran will be able to inhabit birds, wolves, and toads as he wishes.  Jon and Arya will live on as wolves.  But even as wolves they should perish.  They will outlast their enemies but they too will perish. 

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@Allardyce is right about the three getting to live again in animal format after dying.  It will happen but not before they have avenged the Starks.  Revenge does not really bring anything good.  Jon and Arya will end up dead too.  Bran's spirit will continue to haunt the north as long as the weirwoods are standing.  First in his wolf and then his spirit will become part of the weirwood network.  Bran becomes the ghost in the network.

Sansa is just as bad in my opinion.  She knows what Petyr Baelish is planning for Robert Arryn.  Hers and the Stark fans would like to believe Sansa will betray Petyr.  I don't think so.  It is Robert Arryn whom she will betray.  She will betray the child's love and trust by murdering him.  

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On 9/14/2020 at 10:45 PM, Allardyce said:

Above is a quote from A Clash of Kings, a Jon point of view chapter.

It seems to me that the Starks are meant to become a pack again.  But take careful note, sister instead of sisters.  I believe the Starks will come together again as direwolves after their human deaths.  They will each feel incomplete until they become a pack again.  Why sister instead of the plural form?  Because Sansa will not become a part of this pack.  She lost her direwolf, and her soul.  The part of Sansa which joined her to the wolves is gone. 

The tree was Bran.  Jon is no stranger to the smell of dead people.  But there was something upsetting about this.  This is not the smell of leftover dinner here.  No, it means something sinister and evil.  And Bran loves it.  I think Bran will go dark and become one of the villains in the story.  Many people will die because of Bran. 

The quote above has a literal meaning.  The Starks, in the form of direwolves, will come back to the ruins of Winterfell after their human deaths. 

I see dark paths and dark endings for Jon, Arya, and Bran. 

 

I can't wait for a fatal confrontation between Bran Stark and Jaime Lannister.  I actually would not hold a grudge when he kills Jaime.  If ever a scumbag deserved death, it is Jaime Lannister.  I would be fine if he stopped there.  He won't though.  That tree will need to be fed because Bran will need to feed off of it.  Human sacrifices are coming back.  If it ever really went away.   Arya is on her way to murder more people and many of her victims will not be deserving of it.  Jon won't be merciful if or when he comes back.  I sympathize with Bowen Marsh here.  The crannogman had no other way to stop Jon from doing further harm to Watch and Westeros.  He had to kill Jon to stop that boy's madness.  Jon was responsible for his own death.

There should not be any coming back from death.  These Starks should die and that's it.  No second chances as a wolf.  Unfortunately, Martin went to a lot of trouble to explain skin-changing.  I do not believe that was done to take up more pages.  It will be very important in the plot going forward. 

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The kids who still have their dogs will get that second life before the end of the novels.  Jon will be the first to die and Ghost will be the permanent host.  Sansa will just die normally.  

Proximity will be important.  Nymeria is in the riverlands and that is where Arya Stark will die.  

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On 9/14/2020 at 10:45 PM, Allardyce said:

It seems to me that the Starks are meant to become a pack again.  But take careful note, sister instead of sisters.  I believe the Starks will come together again as direwolves after their human deaths.  They will each feel incomplete until they become a pack again.  Why sister instead of the plural form?  Because Sansa will not become a part of this pack.  She lost her direwolf, and her soul.  The part of Sansa which joined her to the wolves is gone. 

Sansa has the best chances of survival among the Starks because so many of us do not like her.  Many will be greatly annoyed by her survival.  The book fans are indifferent to Rickon and so his chances of survival are quite good.  Mr. Martin wants to cause strong emotions in his readers.  Jon and Arya are very divisive characters among the readers and that could mean they will die.  George may use the warging trump card to keep them alive as direwolves in the latter stages of the story.  Those who do not like them will be happy about their deaths while those who like them will be okay because they get to live as direwolves. 

On 9/14/2020 at 10:45 PM, Allardyce said:

The tree was Bran.  Jon is no stranger to the smell of dead people.  But there was something upsetting about this.  This is not the smell of leftover dinner here.  No, it means something sinister and evil.  And Bran loves it.  I think Bran will go dark and become one of the villains in the story.  Many people will die because of Bran. 

I have the same opinion of Bran.  He will become the dark one.  An evil force.  Unfortunately he is not easily killed.  I also believe he will have what the fans desired, a "fatal" fight between Bran and Jaime.  Jaime will lose that fight.  Bran is too powerful.  His body can be ruined and still his mind can escape to the trees.  He will live for a long time as Brynden did.  Connected to that strange weir wood tree. 

Edited by Annalee

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1 hour ago, Annalee said:

Sansa has the best chances of survival among the Starks because so many of us do not like her.  Many will be greatly annoyed by her survival.  The book fans are indifferent to Rickon and so his chances of survival are quite good.  Mr. Martin wants to cause strong emotions in his readers.  Jon and Arya are very divisive characters among the readers and that could mean they will die. 

So your idea is that if readers dislike a character they get to live to the end? Even indifference gets you a good chance of survival. :rofl: But divisive characters are more likely to die? 

Make that make sense. 

Quote

George may use the warging trump card to keep them alive as direwolves in the latter stages of the story.  Those who do not like them will be happy about their deaths while those who like them will be okay because they get to live as direwolves. 

You do not live as a direwolf. A second life is but a fading existence, temporary. The human is overcome by the direwolf mind until there is no more Jon or Arya or whoever. They are mere passengers until the wolf mind takes over. What kind of shit end is that? That's not a life that would please your so called fans of the characters. It would only appease the the comically absurd Targ haters. lol Who I'm sure will be once again thoroughly disappointed when asoiaf ends and the Starks aren't complete losers. 

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On 9/18/2020 at 1:01 PM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I cant foresee Sansa being a nomad/scavenger. The wench would die within a week. She needs marry a northern lord.

I think Jon will make it, Dany will die.

Bran, I can see happening but think Summer wont make it. 

We will just have to agree to disagree on these predictions.  

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Bran has too many options to avoid true death.  Jon and Arya will die.  They will get a temporary reprieve from fading away because they can warg their wolves.  They will live long enough to continue to affect the plot.  Lady Stoneheart has set the pattern for Arya.  Arya is revenge.  What she does will bring more troubles to the people.  Jon's love for Arya will survive the death of his body and it will continue to make him destructive. 

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On 9/14/2020 at 11:15 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Bran will betray Brynden and misuse his abilities.  Love for a girl and his family will lead him to betray his mentor.  Like Jon betrayed the lessons and teachings of Qhorin Halfhand.  This could be the Star Wars inspired subplot in the song of ice and fire.

Jon was the first to die.  Winds of Winter will see him becoming something else.  Either a Lady Stoneheart like creature woken by the Others or a wolf.  Bran's body may die but his mind is part of that Weirwood tree.  His brother and sister will be trapped as a wight (Jon) and Arya as Nymeria. 

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On 9/16/2020 at 9:52 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon was having a wolf dream. Part of his consciousness was in the wolf.  Hence the heightened senses.  

Yea, six skins said something like you could feel or have to wrestle away another inhabitant..just spitballing here :D

Edited by Eliscat

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On 9/14/2020 at 10:45 PM, Allardyce said:

Above is a quote from A Clash of Kings, a Jon point of view chapter.

It seems to me that the Starks are meant to become a pack again.  But take careful note, sister instead of sisters.  I believe the Starks will come together again as direwolves after their human deaths.  They will each feel incomplete until they become a pack again.  Why sister instead of the plural form?  Because Sansa will not become a part of this pack.  She lost her direwolf, and her soul.  The part of Sansa which joined her to the wolves is gone. 

The tree was Bran.  Jon is no stranger to the smell of dead people.  But there was something upsetting about this.  This is not the smell of leftover dinner here.  No, it means something sinister and evil.  And Bran loves it.  I think Bran will go dark and become one of the villains in the story.  Many people will die because of Bran. 

The quote above has a literal meaning.  The Starks, in the form of direwolves, will come back to the ruins of Winterfell after their human deaths. 

I see dark paths and dark endings for Jon, Arya, and Bran. 

 

Arya and Jon for sure.  Jon may not get the honor of becoming a wolf.  He can come back as an ice wight and live like that for a long time.  Think of Coldhands. 

On 9/16/2020 at 4:32 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

Jon's dying thoughts were revenge and Arya.  He is not coming back a good boy.  His descent into the dark started when he killed Slynt.  He has already fallen that hole.  I don't see him crawling out of that hole, regardless of which powers raise him back from death.  There is really no need to talk about Arya.  Their paths seem to follow the same arc.  Both join organizations yet their rebel nature and love for the Starks kept them from staying within the boundaries of what those groups would allow.  Jon and Arya betrayed their orders.  Bran's story may also follow the same failure.  He will become compromised by love at some point and betray Bloodraven.  I don't think it will be his affection for Meera but his devotion to his family which will lead Bran to make a bad decision at an important moment.  

That's the thing about the Starks.  The kids.  They have trouble following rules.  It must be the call of the pack.  I do hope they end up as real wolves before too long. 

On 9/17/2020 at 8:34 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

Arya and Jon are already dark murderers.  And it's not for anything that advances the well-being of anybody.  They didn't murder the people they did to benefit people.  Jon murdered his own subordinate and sworn brother for revenge.  Arya killed two people in Braavos who had not done her any wrong.  I could be convinced to give Bran the benefit of the doubt.  I have no liking for the Starks.  But Bran seems unlike the others.  The boy got thrown out of a window and lost his legs.  With those legs his hopes and dreams.  His elders screwed themselves and the kingdom and are disgraced.  His brother rebelled and lost his war.  His head and his pet too.  Father is a known traitor.  Bastard brother is now a known traitor who got himself executed at the wall.  Both boys are disgraced oathbreakers.  All in all the kid is handling it pretty well.  He's not hateful too much.  Bran is the one in that family who I would be willing to cut some slack.  The rest can end in hell.  By slack I do not mean become lord and master of the north.  Something more useful.  Like firewood!!!!  hahah.  Just kidding.  I would be okay with Bran becoming lord of winterfell and the north.

"He's not hateful too much"  Alright.  I want to see that reasonable-for-a-Stark boy break as soon as he learns who crippled him.  Bran vs. Jaime would be awesome.

Edited by Aline de Gavrillac

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On 9/20/2020 at 10:33 AM, Annalee said:

Sansa has the best chances of survival among the Starks because so many of us do not like her.  Many will be greatly annoyed by her survival.  The book fans are indifferent to Rickon and so his chances of survival are quite good.  Mr. Martin wants to cause strong emotions in his readers.  Jon and Arya are very divisive characters among the readers and that could mean they will die.  George may use the warging trump card to keep them alive as direwolves in the latter stages of the story.  Those who do not like them will be happy about their deaths while those who like them will be okay because they get to live as direwolves. 

I have the same opinion of Bran.  He will become the dark one.  An evil force.  Unfortunately he is not easily killed.  I also believe he will have what the fans desired, a "fatal" fight between Bran and Jaime.  Jaime will lose that fight.  Bran is too powerful.  His body can be ruined and still his mind can escape to the trees.  He will live for a long time as Brynden did.  Connected to that strange weir wood tree. 

Bran vs. Jaime would be awesome.  Jaime will need a weapon against skinchangers.

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Bran will survive the longest because the tree will give him a long life.  The tree will feed him even if he can't go out and find food.  He won't be stuck in his wolf because his body will remain alive.  He will be the only Stark who can go back and forth.  Jon and Arya will not have that ability.  They will be stuck inside their direwolves as soon as their bodies die.  Arya should die in the river lands near Lady Stoneheart and Nymeria.  Jon will be executed for treason, the third lie who must be slain.  His soul will transfer to his direwolf right before the flames consumes his body. 

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On 9/15/2020 at 4:45 AM, Allardyce said:

It seems to me that the Starks are meant to become a pack again.  But take careful note, sister instead of sisters.  I believe the Starks will come together again as direwolves after their human deaths.  They will each feel incomplete until they become a pack again.  Why sister instead of the plural form?  Because Sansa will not become a part of this pack.  She lost her direwolf, and her soul.  The part of Sansa which joined her to the wolves is gone

Noooooooo!!!!!!!!!:bawl::bawl::bawl:
I will cry my eyes out if that's what will happen.:crying:

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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20 hours ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Noooooooo!!!!!!!!!:bawl::bawl::bawl:
I will cry my eyes out if that's what will happen.:crying:

And I will feel badly for you.  May even send you a box of chocolates, minus the nougats.  But not enough to not want to see that happen friend.  :)  

Roswell is antiStark.  

 

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On 9/23/2020 at 7:06 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Arya and Jon for sure.  Jon may not get the honor of becoming a wolf.  He can come back as an ice wight and live like that for a long time.  Think of Coldhands. 

That's the thing about the Starks.  The kids.  They have trouble following rules.  It must be the call of the pack.  I do hope they end up as real wolves before too long. 

"He's not hateful too much"  Alright.  I want to see that reasonable-for-a-Stark boy break as soon as he learns who crippled him.  Bran vs. Jaime would be awesome.

We can agree on that.  Dw vs. Lion.  

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On 9/16/2020 at 4:06 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

OP

I am really not convinced by the Starks taking a dark turn. Either in the sense of it ending tragically or them becoming evil. All that will happen is a mid game passing through the shadow in which they emerge out the other side as complete individuals.

I mean they would have to do A LOT for most readers to do a double take on the Starks. This isn’t like Dany where half the fan base don’t like her, you have an entire lore book written demonising her bloodline and every other character calls her insane. George has been telling us to like these characters and relate to their struggle uncritically.

Short of Jon committing genocide on half the North to take power, or Sansa murdering children, or Arya becoming a sadist who enjoys watching the lights go out of the innocent, or Bran warging his noble court into drones and eating the hearts of babies to increase his power; readers won’t really care. If it’s just them doing bad things to bad people, after George spent three books extolling how they’ve been wronged; nobody will really bat an eyelid at it. People would hand wave collateral damage as they did with Rob Stark. More to the point, I don’t think George wants as dark a story as people think. We’re talking about a bit of edginess here at the most.

 

I don't think so.  That is not really true.  Sansa's selfish nature betrayed her dad.  Cat's blind love for her son triggered a war which killed thousands of innocents.  All for one boy to have his justice.  Cat was either blind or selfish.  Maybe both.  Robb Stark gave his oath to an ally whose son died in his service and then shits on that man for something so minor as loving another girl.  Jon Snow betrays the Night's Watch and commits an injustice against his own man.  Arya is a bloodthirsty multiple murderer.  Look deeply and the Starks are not all that likable.  

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